Author Topic: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?  (Read 623 times)

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Offline noahzarc1

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What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« on: December 08, 2018, 10:30:56 AM »
I think this topic has caused so much division, but I was hoping in the early going of this thread, before it goes off the rails, someone could help me out here or help me understand a few things a little more.

I was informed last night our Priest has left our parish and has been accepted into ROCOR. I found this out only because I had some free time yesterday and contacted the secretary to see if I could get on his schedule to meet. When I didn't hear back until later in the evening from her, she sent me an email with a letter attached. In the letter it stated, "After 16 years as a priest in the Carpatho-Russian jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarch, Father left the EP because of its illegal actions in the Ukraine and has officially been accepted into ROCOR by our ruling Bishop ...."

Can someone briefly describe to me what the Ecumenical Patriarch has done in the Ukraine?
Can someone briefly describe to me wha the current status of things are at the moment in the Ukraine?

I know there were a few other threads that tragically became just too hard to follow. I would only ask that brothers and sisters here please, if possible, refrain from personal attacks or not hijack the thread so that others can learn. I know this is a very emotional issue for many, and even to the point I see that it caused our Priest to take sides. However, I would really like to understand more on what is happening. 
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Offline WPM

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2018, 10:43:32 AM »
Based on Politics .. it looks like the Ukrainians and Russians are in a territorial dispute. 

Such as the autocephalous Ukrainian Church is called into question by the Moscow Russian Church. 

(just an example)

Offline Iconodule

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2018, 10:50:53 AM »
I’m sorry your parish is going through this. While I disagree with the EP’s actions in Ukraine, I don’t think it is sufficient reason for priests to jump ship.

Briefly- there are currently three orthodox bodies in Ukraine: 1 The Ukrainian Orthodox Church, an autonomous church under the Moscow Patriarchate; 2. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv Patriarchate);3. the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church. 2 and 3 are nationalist churches created in the 20th century and claiming autocephaly. Until a few months ago, all canonical churches, including the EP, recognized the UOC (#1) as the legitimate church in Ukraine.

This year, Ukrainian President Poroshenko went to Istanbul to ask Patriarch Bartholomew to recognize an autocephalous church in Ukraine. This is not the first time the question had been brought to the EP but previously the answer was no. This time the EP accepted the request over the protests of the Moscow Patriarchate. The EP is claiming to have never relinquished jurisdiction over Ukraine and also to be able to revoke autocephaly from any church unless it was approved by an Ecumenical council.

The EP has gone ahead and recognized the bishops and clergy of the UOC-KP and UAOC. Moscow responded by breaking communion with the EP.

On December 15th there will be a unifying Synod in Kyiv and bishops from all three bodies are invited to decide on the primate of the new church. Based on documents that have surfaced the new church will be called autocephalous but will actually be more like an autonomous church belonging to the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

The Synod of the UOC met and forbade any bishops or clergy from attending the unifying  Synod. A few may go regardless but the council will be dominated by the UOC-KP since the UAOC is much smaller.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2018, 11:14:06 AM »
^+1, except I think it is sufficient reason to "jump ship".  If a priest can't, in good conscience, obey/commemorate his bishop, something's got to give.  Fr. Nectarios is a good man and priest;  his decision wasn't light and painless for himself or his parish.
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Offline WPM

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2018, 11:35:29 AM »
Can you be Orthodox that goes to any church? ...

Offline noahzarc1

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2018, 11:38:20 AM »
^+1, except I think it is sufficient reason to "jump ship".  If a priest can't, in good conscience, obey/commemorate his bishop, something's got to give.  Fr. Nectarios is a good man and priest;  his decision wasn't light and painless for himself or his parish.
You've seen the letter apparently? I tried to leave names out, but obviously you know him or the situation.
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Offline noahzarc1

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2018, 11:41:06 AM »
I’m sorry your parish is going through this. While I disagree with the EP’s actions in Ukraine, I don’t think it is sufficient reason for priests to jump ship.

Briefly- there are currently three orthodox bodies in Ukraine: 1 The Ukrainian Orthodox Church, an autonomous church under the Moscow Patriarchate; 2. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv Patriarchate);3. the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church. 2 and 3 are nationalist churches created in the 20th century and claiming autocephaly. Until a few months ago, all canonical churches, including the EP, recognized the UOC (#1) as the legitimate church in Ukraine.

This year, Ukrainian President Poroshenko went to Istanbul to ask Patriarch Bartholomew to recognize an autocephalous church in Ukraine. This is not the first time the question had been brought to the EP but previously the answer was no. This time the EP accepted the request over the protests of the Moscow Patriarchate. The EP is claiming to have never relinquished jurisdiction over Ukraine and also to be able to revoke autocephaly from any church unless it was approved by an Ecumenical council.

The EP has gone ahead and recognized the bishops and clergy of the UOC-KP and UAOC. Moscow responded by breaking communion with the EP.

On December 15th there will be a unifying Synod in Kyiv and bishops from all three bodies are invited to decide on the primate of the new church. Based on documents that have surfaced the new church will be called autocephalous but will actually be more like an autonomous church belonging to the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

The Synod of the UOC met and forbade any bishops or clergy from attending the unifying  Synod. A few may go regardless but the council will be dominated by the UOC-KP since the UAOC is much smaller.

Very helpful information. Thank you. So basically there would (or will be) two competing jurisdictions in Ukraine? They don't seem to have this kind of conflict (the UP and Russia) over how things are in the U.S. Why so much concern like this in the Ukraine? Is it Ukraine's geographical location to Russia?
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Offline hecma925

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2018, 12:27:18 PM »
^+1, except I think it is sufficient reason to "jump ship".  If a priest can't, in good conscience, obey/commemorate his bishop, something's got to give.  Fr. Nectarios is a good man and priest;  his decision wasn't light and painless for himself or his parish.
You've seen the letter apparently? I tried to leave names out, but obviously you know him or the situation.

I know him, but the letter is also out in the orthosphere.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2018, 12:30:06 PM »
The Moscow Patriarchate considers Ukraine to be its territory and until recently the EP and everyone else agreed in that. Intruding on another church’s territory is a basic canonical no-no. The North American situation, while far from ideal, is different because there was no consensus as to whether it was anyone’s territory.

Also, the EP is not only setting up a parallel jurisdiction but stated in its letter to Met. Onuphry that it would consider him a trespasser after the 15th.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2018, 12:46:00 PM »
The Moscow Patriarchate considers Ukraine to be its territory and until recently the EP and everyone else agreed in that. Intruding on another church’s territory is a basic canonical no-no. The North American situation, while far from ideal, is different because there was no consensus as to whether it was anyone’s territory.

Also, the EP is not only setting up a parallel jurisdiction but stated in its letter to Met. Onuphry that it would consider him a trespasser after the 15th.

Is there a link to that letter?
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2018, 01:18:51 PM »
The Moscow Patriarchate considers Ukraine to be its territory and until recently the EP and everyone else agreed in that. Intruding on another church’s territory is a basic canonical no-no. The North American situation, while far from ideal, is different because there was no consensus as to whether it was anyone’s territory.

Also, the EP is not only setting up a parallel jurisdiction but stated in its letter to Met. Onuphry that it would consider him a trespasser after the 15th.

Is there a link to that letter?
https://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/orthodox_relations/73808/
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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Offline WPM

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2018, 01:21:43 PM »
The Moscow Patriarchate considers Ukraine to be its territory and until recently the EP and everyone else agreed in that. Intruding on another church’s territory is a basic canonical no-no. The North American situation, while far from ideal, is different because there was no consensus as to whether it was anyone’s territory.

Also, the EP is not only setting up a parallel jurisdiction but stated in its letter to Met. Onuphry that it would consider him a trespasser after the 15th.

St. Basil's Cathedral?

Offline hecma925

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2018, 01:25:02 PM »
The Moscow Patriarchate considers Ukraine to be its territory and until recently the EP and everyone else agreed in that. Intruding on another church’s territory is a basic canonical no-no. The North American situation, while far from ideal, is different because there was no consensus as to whether it was anyone’s territory.

Also, the EP is not only setting up a parallel jurisdiction but stated in its letter to Met. Onuphry that it would consider him a trespasser after the 15th.

Is there a link to that letter?
https://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/orthodox_relations/73808/

Thanks.
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Offline noahzarc1

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2018, 03:50:18 PM »
It seems to me the laity always gets stuck in the middle of crisis like this one.
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Offline noahzarc1

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2018, 03:51:40 PM »
^+1, except I think it is sufficient reason to "jump ship".  If a priest can't, in good conscience, obey/commemorate his bishop, something's got to give.  Fr. Nectarios is a good man and priest;  his decision wasn't light and painless for himself or his parish.
You've seen the letter apparently? I tried to leave names out, but obviously you know him or the situation.

I know him, but the letter is also out in the orthosphere.
I had a lot of conversations with him in the last three years, to include just 2 weeks ago. This one, I did not see coming until, well, last night.

I had to google orthosphere. I was not quite sure what that was. 
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 03:54:48 PM by noahzarc1 »
"While we fight about words, take advantage of ambiguities, criticize authors, fight on party questions, have difficulty in agreeing, and prepare to anathematize each other, there is scarce a man who belongs to Christ." - Hilary of Poitiers (367)

Offline WPM

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2018, 04:10:40 PM »
The Moscow Patriarchate considers Ukraine to be its territory and until recently the EP and everyone else agreed in that. Intruding on another church’s territory is a basic canonical no-no. The North American situation, while far from ideal, is different because there was no consensus as to whether it was anyone’s territory.

Also, the EP is not only setting up a parallel jurisdiction but stated in its letter to Met. Onuphry that it would consider him a trespasser after the 15th.

What about travel or exploration navigating

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2018, 04:17:59 PM »
Lord have mercy! :(

Can someone be found for Liturgy tomorrow?
And he said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and those in authority over them are called benefactors. But not so with you; rather let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves." Luke 22:25-26

Offline WPM

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2018, 04:26:18 PM »
I'm ready to be a church attendee

Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2018, 04:39:11 PM »
I would advise to wait until next Sunday: that is after the Unity Sobor. 

In the meantime concentrate on your prayer life.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2018, 04:42:49 PM »
I would advise to wait until next Sunday: that is after the Unity Sobor. 

In the meantime concentrate on your prayer life.

Why would someone wait on going to church in Texas until something happens in Ukraine?
This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

Offline noahzarc1

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2018, 09:23:46 PM »
Lord have mercy! :(

Can someone be found for Liturgy tomorrow?
They have a visiting priest. It'll be interesting for sure
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Offline noahzarc1

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2018, 09:26:18 PM »
I would advise to wait until next Sunday: that is after the Unity Sobor. 

In the meantime concentrate on your prayer life.

Why would someone wait on going to church in Texas until something happens in Ukraine?
Great point. Exactly. Why does my life have to or need to be disrupted because of what is going on in Ukraine? This is what I meant by the laity getting caught in the middle of these crisis. The EP creates a crisis in Ukraine and the laity in the U.S. suffer because their priest of 16 years leaves the church because he disagrees with what happens in Ukraine. And thus, the laity suffer.
"While we fight about words, take advantage of ambiguities, criticize authors, fight on party questions, have difficulty in agreeing, and prepare to anathematize each other, there is scarce a man who belongs to Christ." - Hilary of Poitiers (367)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2018, 10:59:53 PM »
This thread needs a break.  Locked for a few days.

Mor Ephrem, moderator
This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

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Re: What Exactly Is Happening in Ukraine?
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2019, 10:41:26 PM »
This thread needs a break.  Locked for a few days.

Mor Ephrem, moderator


Thread locked.
This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .