Author Topic: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims  (Read 810 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mercurius1

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 92
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« on: November 16, 2018, 09:40:32 AM »
There seem to be a lot of claims for papal supremacy, etc., what if I was wrong to leave the RC for Orthodoxy? Orthodoxy feels more "right", but, what if Roman Catholicism is correct and is just going through a rough time post-VII. I would love for someone to help calm my worries

**This should be moved to Convert Issues**
« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 09:41:21 AM by Mercurius1 »

Offline ErmyCath

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 330
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2018, 11:15:26 AM »
What are your thoughts on the Roman Catholic idea of development of doctrine?

If you don't believe that to be correct, then it is easier to understand why their papal claims are wrong. Just within the last 120 years, you have popes assigning to themselves infallibility (followed then by the promulgation of at least two infallible decrees), the ability to install and depose all the bishops in the world, and the sole authority to approve the liturgy throughout the world.

Even Roman Catholics have to concede that these sorts of things are a development of the papal doctrine since they are certainly unknown until after 1890 or so. It's also worth noting that, before Vatican I, there was a lot of debate about whether infallibility was correct, which again demonstrates that it is a development.

If the development of doctrine idea is wrong, then the papal claims lose support. This is a way to conceive of the issue without having to dig through prooftexts from the Fathers. I hope it helps you.
"You must have an opinion on everything and loudly confront everyone with it." - Cyrillic

Offline Vanhyo

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 997
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2018, 02:20:47 PM »
Here, some simple and easy materials for you to explore.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 02:21:38 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline platypus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 150
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2018, 07:46:49 PM »
If you want a very long, but very in-depth study on the subject, His Broken Body by Fr. Laurent Cleenewerck is an excellent read. Roman Catholics attempting to prove the Papal claims tend to cherrypick Church Father quotes to support their doctrines, taking them wildly out of context. Fr. Laurent goes through the commonly used quotes supposedly in favor of Roman Catholic ecclesiology, showing them in the context of the saints writings as a whole. It's very detailed and very good.

I am also a former Roman Catholic, and the papal claims were at one point very convincing to me. Reading about Church history changed that. The post-Vatican I monarchial papacy didn't exist in the first few centuries of Christianity, and seeing how the Church actually operated is immensely helpful. I liked The First Seven Ecumenical Councils: Their History and Theology by Fr. Leo Donald Davis. He's a Jesuit, and one of his goals in writing the book was to demonstrate the authority of the Bishop of Rome during the time of the Ecumenical Councils. But instead, the Church from the 4th to the 8th century that he describes is a federation of self-governing Churches who see themselves as having the authority to determine doctrine doctrine, or excommunicate each other. No different from the Orthodox Church today, but quite different from the very organized Roman Catholic Church.

The first president of the second Ecumenical Council, St. Meletius, wasn't even in communion with Rome. And it was at this council that the phrase "We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church" was added to the creed. Cardinal Newman wrote that "to learn history is to cease to be Protestant" and after learning the history of the Church I feel the same way about Catholicism.

After their split from Orthodoxy, the Roman Church had to completely revise their code of canon law to give all the power to the pope. Previously they used the conciliar canon law established by the Orthodox Church in the first millennia, because they used to be Orthodox. This was called the Gregorian Reforms, and it's easily verifiable history. Compare the mostly episcopalian church government from the Ecumenical Councils to the current rule of law in the Roman Church and the difference is tremendous. All the authority that was spread out in the Church of the first millennia, like the ability to choose a bishop, or canonize a saint, or determine doctrine, the Roman Church gives to the Pope. It's a system of church government foreign to the Church Fathers.

Even with the Gregorian Reforms, the Papal claims weren't fully accepted even in the Roman Church. In the 14th century, Pope John XXII wrote an enciclycal, Quia Quorundam, where he bashed the idea of papal infallibility and said it's supporters were following "the father of lies."

Papal monarchy didn't fare well either. In the 15th century, three different men were simultaneously Pope, each one the leader of their own Roman Catholic Church. The three churches finally got sick of it and called the Council of Constance. They fixed the schism by firing two of them, making one resign, and electing a new one. They furthermore defined that the general assembly of bishops has power over the entire Church, even the pope. Pope Martin V, the newly elected pope, issued the encyclical Inter Cunctas where he made acceptance of the council a requirement. At this point in history, the official teaching of Roman Catholicism was that the Pope was subordinate to the bishops. Not only was it the offical teaching, it was the teaching that saved them from schism when Papal monarchy couldn't.

When the English government was considering Catholic Emancipation, the RC bishops in England swore up and down to the English government that the pope was not infallible. Their catechism even labeled papal infallibilty as a lie spread by Protestants to undermine the Church. It wasn't until Vatican I that it became the new official Catholic teaching.

The Papal dogmas don't seem to be helping the Roman Catholics one bit, either. They appeal to a logical mindset: you have a seemingly clear way to determine the truth. But ask various different Catholics which papal statements meet the requirements for infallibility and you'll get as many answers as there are Catholics. Not to mention the vast number of blatantly contradictory statements. Sedevacantist websites are great for helping you find this material.

Orthodoxy is the Church. We've kept the same customs, the same conciliar Church government, the same spirituality. Roman Catholicism hasn't.
"Eternal truth finds no favorable soil where one encounters at every turn the skeptical, sarcastic query 'what is truth,' where life insurance takes the place of eternal hope." -Hieromonk Antonius

Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity. -Ecclesiastes 12:8

Offline noahzarc1

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 153
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Diocese
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2018, 09:29:55 PM »
Go to the "articles" section on the home page of this website  and read the article "The Vatican Dogma." In fact I found this forum because of that article because I had been reading a book and someone referenced the article. So then I decided to read the article and realized it was attached to the overall forum website and eventually submitted for membership here. Anyway, you may enjoy the article if you have not read it before.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 09:30:28 PM by noahzarc1 »

Offline noahzarc1

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 153
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Diocese
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2018, 09:46:38 PM »
If you want a very long, but very in-depth study on the subject, His Broken Body by Fr. Laurent Cleenewerck is an excellent read.

I think you recommended this book before and I forgot to write it down. I just ordered it so I wouldn't forget and I look forward to reading it. Thanks for the suggestion.

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 619
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2018, 10:36:08 PM »
There seem to be a lot of claims for papal supremacy, etc., what if I was wrong to leave the RC for Orthodoxy? Orthodoxy feels more "right", but, what if Roman Catholicism is correct and is just going through a rough time post-VII. I would love for someone to help calm my worries

**This should be moved to Convert Issues**
Cyprian declares: "If someone does not hold fast to this unity
of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built,
can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4, 251 AD). Irenaeus writes: "Where
the charismata of the Lord are given, there must we seek the truth, with those to whom belongs the ecclesiastical succession
from the Apostles, and the unadulterated and incorruptible word. It is they who ...are the guardians of our faith...and
securely expound the Scriptures to us" (Against Heresies 4:26:5, 180-199 AD).

The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the Apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor
anything like it. The second see, however, is that at Alexandria, consecrated in behalf of blessed Peter by Mark, his disciple
and an evangelist, who was sent to Egypt by the Apostle Peter, where he preached the word of truth and finished his glorious
martyrdom. The third honorable see, indeed, is that at Antioch, which belonged to the most blessed Apostle Peter, where first
he dwelt before he came to Rome, and where the name Christians was first applied, as to a new people (The Decree of
Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).

Offline Ainnir

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,977
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2018, 10:43:25 PM »
Polemics are no welcome in the Convert Issues forum, sedevacantist.  Please review the RULES section if you're not sure why.  And if you feel you need to start a thread in the Orthodox-Catholic forum, you're free to do so.  --Ainnir
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Briven

  • Pray for me, please! Baseball loving Old Believer.
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 545
  • Господи Ісусе Христе Сыне Божїй помилѹй мѧ!
  • Faith: Old Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2018, 10:46:49 PM »
Therefore the Apostles, handing on what they themselves had received, warn the faithful to hold fast to the traditions which they have learned either by word of mouth or by letter (see 2 Thess. 2:15), and to fight in defense of the faith handed on once and for all (see Jud. 3)... This tradition which comes from the Apostles develops in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. For there is a growth in the understanding of the realities and the words... through a penetrating understanding of the spiritual realities... For as the centuries succeed one another, the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfilment in her.”

“It is disastrous to suppose that the Church does not know God as He really is;... for if She declined one iota from perfection, such would be a blot on Her unblemished Faith, destroying the beauty of the whole with that single wrinkle. A thing is not small when it leads to something great; and it is no small matter to forsake any detail belonging to the Church’s ancient Tradition which has been upheld by all those who were called before us, whose conduct we should admire and whose faith we should imitate.” – St. John of Damascus 7th century A.D Defense of the Divine Icons.

Development of doctrine is astonishing. It implies that the Holy Fathers knew more than the Apostles, the Scholastics more than the Holy Fathers, and most Catholics today more than the Scholastics. When a new dogma is declared, if someone previously did not believe in x dogma they were a good Catholic, but then they are transformed into a bad Catholic after the declaration of dogma.

Now for infallibility and universality of the Roman diocese:

"I say it without the least hesitation, whoever calls himself the universal bishop, or desires this title, is, by his pride, the precursor of Antichrist, because he thus attempts to raise himself above the others. The error into which he falls springs from pride equal to that of Antichrist; for as that Wicked One wished to be regarded as exalted above other men, like a god, so likewise whoever would be called sole bishop exalteth himself above others....You know it, my brother; hath not the venerable Council of Chalcedon conferred the honorary title of 'universal' upon the bishops of this Apostolic See [Rome], whereof I am, by God's will, the servant? And yet none of us hath permitted this title to be given to him; none hath assumed this bold title, lest by assuming a special distinction in the dignity of the episcopate, we should seem to refuse it to all the brethren."

The Pope is literally called the Universal Bishop and that's not an honorary term, and Gregory and his predecessors denied even the honorary term.

What he predicts, about how if one Bishop is supreme then no other Bishop is actually a Bishop, is shockingly true in Catholicism today. Bishops are, as I said above, an advisory committee to the Pope. Even the most supreme Bishops, the Cardinals, are advisors and bureaucrats below him.

“Only the Roman Pontiff is rightly called universal; the Pope can be judged by no one; no one can be regarded as a catholic who does not agree with the Roman church; the Roman Church has never erred and never will err till the end of time; the Roman Church was founded by Christ alone; the Pope alone can depose and restore bishops; he alone can make new laws, set up new bishoprics, and divide old ones; he alone can translate bishops to another see; he alone can call general councils and authorize canon law; he alone can revise his own judgements; his sentence cannot be repealed by anyone and he alone can review the judgements of all; he alone can use the imperial insignia; he can depose emperors; he can absolve subjects from their allegiance to impious rulers; the Pope is the only man to whom all princes bend the knee; all princes should kiss his feet; his legates, even those in inferior orders, have precedence over all bishops; an appeal to the papal court inhibits judgement by all inferior courts; a duly ordained pope is undoubtedly made a saint by the merits of St. Peter.”

How does this square with the statements of Gregory I? What Church Fathers are not against t that statement?

And a common Roman response would be that it wasn't said infallibly. Now for Papal Infallibility.

The dogma is either heresy or fundamentally useless and so miniscule that it doesn't matter at all. Papal Infallibility is reduced by most lay and ordained Romans to mean "The Pope is Infallible when he is right". The other definition many people take is the Pope has to state something very authoritatively : like the ending of Humanae Vitae and this statement from Vatican I by the Pope.

“We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” “...it came to pass in the secret design of God’s providence that We were chosen to fill this Chair of St. Peter and to take the place of the Person of Christ Himself in the Church...”

This is why this dogma is broken. No person is Jesus Christ on Earth, no person is the actual person of Christ who speaks for him. Pius IX meant that by this dogma. He said that when the Pope speaks, Christ speaks. Like the Pope is Jesus Christ in the flesh. This was said in response to a dissenting Bishop on Infallibility.

Mods, please remove if this is too polemical
“God,”
The words rumbled:
“There is much suffering,
But the church is alive. "

 “How long, Archpriest, are we to suffer thus?” I answered: “Until our very death, Markovna!” And she replied, with a sigh: “So be it, Petrovich, let us plod on.” - Life of Avvakum by Himself

Nastasya, Nastasya, be
patient and do not cry:
Not every happiness
Comes in the clothing of fortune.

St. Avvakum, pray for us!

St. Ambrose, pray for us!

My blog: http://pustozersk.blogspot.com

Offline Sharbel

  • Glory to God in all things!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,574
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Greek
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2018, 12:11:09 AM »
I am also a former Roman Catholic, and the papal claims were at one point very convincing to me. Reading about Church history changed that... Cardinal Newman wrote that "to learn history is to cease to be Protestant" and after learning the history of the Church I feel the same way about Catholicism.
It was also my case, through learning Church history.  However, my eyes were open when reading Rome and the Eastern Churches, by the Catholic scholar of Oxford, the Dominican Fr. Aidan Nichols.  His subject wasn't even the papacy, but history, and it became clear to me that the papal prerogatives had no historical basis for a whole millennium.  From there, it didn't take too long for the Catholic apologetic scales to fall off my eyes to understand the Church Fathers in their own terms, rather than through Catholic lenses.

What he predicts, about how if one Bishop is supreme then no other Bishop is actually a Bishop, is shockingly true in Catholicism today. Bishops are, as I said above, an advisory committee to the Pope. Even the most supreme Bishops, the Cardinals, are advisors and bureaucrats below him.
If Latin Catholics still had chorbishops around, like their brethren Eastern Catholics do, they'd realize that only the pope is a bishop and the other bishops are actually chorbishops, or literally second class "country bishops".

Papal Infallibility is reduced by most lay and ordained Romans to mean "The Pope is Infallible when he is right". The other definition many people take is the Pope has to state something very authoritatively : like the ending of Humanae Vitae and this statement from Vatican I by the Pope.
However, PP JPII used the same formal statement in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis on the impossibility of the ordination of women and yet even the Holy Office is wishy-washy about it.  Which begs the question why the Holy Office would have to confirm what popes state if he's a supreme and infallible teacher...
Sanctus Deus
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ
Άγιος ο Θεός

Offline Mercurius1

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 92
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2018, 11:20:37 AM »
If you want a very long, but very in-depth study on the subject, His Broken Body by Fr. Laurent Cleenewerck is an excellent read. Roman Catholics attempting to prove the Papal claims tend to cherrypick Church Father quotes to support their doctrines, taking them wildly out of context. Fr. Laurent goes through the commonly used quotes supposedly in favor of Roman Catholic ecclesiology, showing them in the context of the saints writings as a whole. It's very detailed and very good.

I am also a former Roman Catholic, and the papal claims were at one point very convincing to me. Reading about Church history changed that. The post-Vatican I monarchial papacy didn't exist in the first few centuries of Christianity, and seeing how the Church actually operated is immensely helpful. I liked The First Seven Ecumenical Councils: Their History and Theology by Fr. Leo Donald Davis. He's a Jesuit, and one of his goals in writing the book was to demonstrate the authority of the Bishop of Rome during the time of the Ecumenical Councils. But instead, the Church from the 4th to the 8th century that he describes is a federation of self-governing Churches who see themselves as having the authority to determine doctrine doctrine, or excommunicate each other. No different from the Orthodox Church today, but quite different from the very organized Roman Catholic Church.

The first president of the second Ecumenical Council, St. Meletius, wasn't even in communion with Rome. And it was at this council that the phrase "We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church" was added to the creed. Cardinal Newman wrote that "to learn history is to cease to be Protestant" and after learning the history of the Church I feel the same way about Catholicism.

After their split from Orthodoxy, the Roman Church had to completely revise their code of canon law to give all the power to the pope. Previously they used the conciliar canon law established by the Orthodox Church in the first millennia, because they used to be Orthodox. This was called the Gregorian Reforms, and it's easily verifiable history. Compare the mostly episcopalian church government from the Ecumenical Councils to the current rule of law in the Roman Church and the difference is tremendous. All the authority that was spread out in the Church of the first millennia, like the ability to choose a bishop, or canonize a saint, or determine doctrine, the Roman Church gives to the Pope. It's a system of church government foreign to the Church Fathers.

Even with the Gregorian Reforms, the Papal claims weren't fully accepted even in the Roman Church. In the 14th century, Pope John XXII wrote an enciclycal, Quia Quorundam, where he bashed the idea of papal infallibility and said it's supporters were following "the father of lies."

Papal monarchy didn't fare well either. In the 15th century, three different men were simultaneously Pope, each one the leader of their own Roman Catholic Church. The three churches finally got sick of it and called the Council of Constance. They fixed the schism by firing two of them, making one resign, and electing a new one. They furthermore defined that the general assembly of bishops has power over the entire Church, even the pope. Pope Martin V, the newly elected pope, issued the encyclical Inter Cunctas where he made acceptance of the council a requirement. At this point in history, the official teaching of Roman Catholicism was that the Pope was subordinate to the bishops. Not only was it the offical teaching, it was the teaching that saved them from schism when Papal monarchy couldn't.

When the English government was considering Catholic Emancipation, the RC bishops in England swore up and down to the English government that the pope was not infallible. Their catechism even labeled papal infallibilty as a lie spread by Protestants to undermine the Church. It wasn't until Vatican I that it became the new official Catholic teaching.

The Papal dogmas don't seem to be helping the Roman Catholics one bit, either. They appeal to a logical mindset: you have a seemingly clear way to determine the truth. But ask various different Catholics which papal statements meet the requirements for infallibility and you'll get as many answers as there are Catholics. Not to mention the vast number of blatantly contradictory statements. Sedevacantist websites are great for helping you find this material.

Orthodoxy is the Church. We've kept the same customs, the same conciliar Church government, the same spirituality. Roman Catholicism hasn't.

Thank  you for providing this. I'm just worried that I might have made the wrong decision, which of course is natural. But, ironically and for better or worse, seeing the current doings of the EP actually helps to strengthen my faith in Orthodoxy over Roman Catholicism

Offline WPM

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,309
  • Faith: Lutheran
  • Jurisdiction: Texas
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2018, 02:33:12 PM »
What are your thoughts on the Roman Catholic idea of development of doctrine?

If you don't believe that to be correct, then it is easier to understand why their papal claims are wrong. Just within the last 120 years, you have popes assigning to themselves infallibility (followed then by the promulgation of at least two infallible decrees), the ability to install and depose all the bishops in the world, and the sole authority to approve the liturgy throughout the world.

Even Roman Catholics have to concede that these sorts of things are a development of the papal doctrine since they are certainly unknown until after 1890 or so. It's also worth noting that, before Vatican I, there was a lot of debate about whether infallibility was correct, which again demonstrates that it is a development.

If the development of doctrine idea is wrong, then the papal claims lose support. This is a way to conceive of the issue without having to dig through prooftexts from the Fathers. I hope it helps you.

Legalism and Scholasticism Vs Experience
For questions about the history of the Lutheran faith see the Book of Concord available from Pastor's office.

Formula of Concord 1577

A restatement of some teachings in the Augsburg Confession over which Lutherans had become divided. The Solid Declaration is the unabridged version. The Epitome is an abridged version intended for congregations to study. Over 8,100 pastors and theologians signed it, as well as over 50 government leaders.



WELS/ELCA/LCMS Church Pastor's Word

Offline Ignatius II

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 83
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2018, 04:31:43 PM »
Not wanting to derail a thread here, but I was just curious about the ramifications of conversions.

 In other words if a Catholic converted to Orthodoxy, would that individual be regarded a heretic or a schematic?  How would the Catholic Church view their likely possibility regarding salvation, since they left the Catholic Church? The same questions would apply to those converting from Orthodoxy to Catholicism.

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 619
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2018, 09:19:41 PM »
Not wanting to derail a thread here, but I was just curious about the ramifications of conversions.

 In other words if a Catholic converted to Orthodoxy, would that individual be regarded a heretic or a schematic?  How would the Catholic Church view their likely possibility regarding salvation, since they left the Catholic Church? The same questions would apply to those converting from Orthodoxy to Catholicism.
the person leaving the Catholic Church will burn for eternity...this is according to the true Catholic Church...today  modernists say otherwise

Offline theistgal

  • Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,240
  • don't even go there!
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2018, 09:30:49 PM »
Not wanting to derail a thread here, but I was just curious about the ramifications of conversions.

 In other words if a Catholic converted to Orthodoxy, would that individual be regarded a heretic or a schematic?  How would the Catholic Church view their likely possibility regarding salvation, since they left the Catholic Church? The same questions would apply to those converting from Orthodoxy to Catholicism.
the person leaving the Catholic Church will burn for eternity...this is according to the true Catholic Church...today  modernists say otherwise

Was Pope Pius XII, who condemned that very error of the Feenyites, one of those modernists?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 09:31:05 PM by theistgal »
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 619
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2018, 10:44:05 PM »
Not wanting to derail a thread here, but I was just curious about the ramifications of conversions.

 In other words if a Catholic converted to Orthodoxy, would that individual be regarded a heretic or a schematic?  How would the Catholic Church view their likely possibility regarding salvation, since they left the Catholic Church? The same questions would apply to those converting from Orthodoxy to Catholicism.
the person leaving the Catholic Church will burn for eternity...this is according to the true Catholic Church...today  modernists say otherwise
give me the quote

Was Pope Pius XII, who condemned that very error of the Feenyites, one of those modernists?

Offline platypus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 150
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2018, 11:27:58 PM »
Not wanting to derail a thread here, but I was just curious about the ramifications of conversions.

 In other words if a Catholic converted to Orthodoxy, would that individual be regarded a heretic or a schematic?  How would the Catholic Church view their likely possibility regarding salvation, since they left the Catholic Church? The same questions would apply to those converting from Orthodoxy to Catholicism.

At one point a Catholic converting to Orthodoxy definitely would have been considered a heretic and schismatic. Now, probably just a schismatic. Someone reverting back to Catholicism from Orthodoxy would probably be received back into communion immediately by confession, just like someone who communed with SSPX or Protestants. Some RC priests will commune Orthodox Christians even when he knows they're not Roman Catholics. The pastor of the RC parish in my town told my RC sister I could receive communion there, even knowing that I was an RC to Orthodox convert.

The part where things get a bit more complicated is RC veneration of Orthodox saints. Under the old RC teaching, Orthodox who departed this life would burn. The Eastern Catholics always venerated Orthodox saints, but an RC traditionalist could write this off as Eastern Catholics not being "real" Catholics, or something like that. But then St. Gregory Narek, who was an Oriental Orthodox, became a Doctor of the Church in Roman Catholicism. That's a pretty explicit acceptance of the possibility of salvation in the Orthodox Church.

Of course, the Roman Church may view the situation of a cradle Orthodox as quite different from that of a convert. Long story short, I don't think there's a straight answer.

Someone who left Orthodoxy for the Papal Communion would be considered a schismatic, although I assume their possible status as a heretic depends on whether or not they rejected any Orthodox teaching.
"Eternal truth finds no favorable soil where one encounters at every turn the skeptical, sarcastic query 'what is truth,' where life insurance takes the place of eternal hope." -Hieromonk Antonius

Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity. -Ecclesiastes 12:8

Offline Ainnir

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,977
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2018, 11:59:43 PM »
Not wanting to derail a thread here, but I was just curious about the ramifications of conversions.

 In other words if a Catholic converted to Orthodoxy, would that individual be regarded a heretic or a schematic?  How would the Catholic Church view their likely possibility regarding salvation, since they left the Catholic Church? The same questions would apply to those converting from Orthodoxy to Catholicism.
the person leaving the Catholic Church will burn for eternity...this is according to the true Catholic Church...today  modernists say otherwise
sedevacantist, you've been warned for polemical posting not that long ago.  Convert Issues is absolutely not the place for polemics.  I'm issuing a you a 20% warning.  If you'd like to appeal, please do so via PM.  --Ainnir
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline noahzarc1

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 153
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Diocese
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2018, 12:13:28 AM »
Not wanting to derail a thread here, but I was just curious about the ramifications of conversions.

 In other words if a Catholic converted to Orthodoxy, would that individual be regarded a heretic or a schematic?  How would the Catholic Church view their likely possibility regarding salvation, since they left the Catholic Church? The same questions would apply to those converting from Orthodoxy to Catholicism.
What is your current status? That might help some answer the question you posed a little better. Are you Roman Catholic, considering leaving for Orthodoxy or are you already Orthodox?

Don't worry about sedevacantist, he is neither Catholic nor Orthodox, so his opinion doesn't really count as for what his thoughts are on who will burn.

Offline WPM

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,309
  • Faith: Lutheran
  • Jurisdiction: Texas
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2018, 12:30:39 AM »
I've read about Vatican I and II.
For questions about the history of the Lutheran faith see the Book of Concord available from Pastor's office.

Formula of Concord 1577

A restatement of some teachings in the Augsburg Confession over which Lutherans had become divided. The Solid Declaration is the unabridged version. The Epitome is an abridged version intended for congregations to study. Over 8,100 pastors and theologians signed it, as well as over 50 government leaders.



WELS/ELCA/LCMS Church Pastor's Word

Offline Ignatius II

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 83
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2018, 12:53:19 AM »
Catholic . Primarily trying To understand the position of the Catholic Church. It would seem that if the Orthodox and Catholic are sister churches, conversion should not be acknowledged as a grave matter. However, responses seem to indicate otherwise. Obviously there are many who leave the Catholic Church for Orthodoxy. There is a well known aged monk In Switzerland who did so at age 70  I was questioning if it is the Catholic Church’s position believe that one’s salvation is lost by such a move. There are aobviously differences between the 2 churches with the 2 main issues being the Issue of the Pope and the alteration of the Creed regarding the relationship of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. However, the Catholic Church does allow the Eastern Catholics to worship as Orthodox with a few exceptions.

Offline Sharbel

  • Glory to God in all things!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,574
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Greek
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2018, 12:00:52 PM »
The Catholic Church communes the Orthodox and allows her faithful to commune in the Orthodox Church.  Were the Orthodox considered heretics, this wouldn't be the case, methinks.  Yet, there isn't even a Catholic consensus if the Orthodox Church is in schism with Rome, given the mess that 1054 was.

But, as a Maronite Catholic who swam the Bosphorus earlier this year, I'd say to not worry about the status you'd leave behind, but the one you'd be embracing.  Subjectively speaking, I do not feel less Catholic, but more Catholic than I've ever been.  Everything that I've loved in the Catholic Church I've found in the Orthodox Church in a deeper and higher degree.

Be not afraid to come into the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church, the Orthodox Church.
Sanctus Deus
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ
Άγιος ο Θεός

Offline PorphyriosK

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 255
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2018, 12:25:22 PM »
Yet, there isn't even a Catholic consensus if the Orthodox Church is in schism with Rome, given the mess that 1054 was.

If you go strictly by the "paper doctrine", RC Church defines schism as refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff, so it would definitely seem to be schism.  Yet there have been individual theologians that have suggested that the Orthodox East might really be in a state of partial or quasi-schism since all those teachings about the papacy were defined after the split.

Offline WPM

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,309
  • Faith: Lutheran
  • Jurisdiction: Texas
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2018, 07:50:19 PM »
Not wanting to derail a thread here, but I was just curious about the ramifications of conversions.

 In other words if a Catholic converted to Orthodoxy, would that individual be regarded a heretic or a schematic?  How would the Catholic Church view their likely possibility regarding salvation, since they left the Catholic Church? The same questions would apply to those converting from Orthodoxy to Catholicism.
the person leaving the Catholic Church will burn for eternity...this is according to the true Catholic Church...today  modernists say otherwise

Was Pope Pius XII, who condemned that very error of the Feenyites, one of those modernists?

I don't know . . . I know about Pope Pius XII but not the Feenyites.
For questions about the history of the Lutheran faith see the Book of Concord available from Pastor's office.

Formula of Concord 1577

A restatement of some teachings in the Augsburg Confession over which Lutherans had become divided. The Solid Declaration is the unabridged version. The Epitome is an abridged version intended for congregations to study. Over 8,100 pastors and theologians signed it, as well as over 50 government leaders.



WELS/ELCA/LCMS Church Pastor's Word

Offline WPM

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,309
  • Faith: Lutheran
  • Jurisdiction: Texas
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2018, 07:52:08 PM »
There seem to be a lot of claims for papal supremacy, etc., what if I was wrong to leave the RC for Orthodoxy? Orthodoxy feels more "right", but, what if Roman Catholicism is correct and is just going through a rough time post-VII. I would love for someone to help calm my worries

**This should be moved to Convert Issues**

North America
For questions about the history of the Lutheran faith see the Book of Concord available from Pastor's office.

Formula of Concord 1577

A restatement of some teachings in the Augsburg Confession over which Lutherans had become divided. The Solid Declaration is the unabridged version. The Epitome is an abridged version intended for congregations to study. Over 8,100 pastors and theologians signed it, as well as over 50 government leaders.



WELS/ELCA/LCMS Church Pastor's Word

Offline WPM

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,309
  • Faith: Lutheran
  • Jurisdiction: Texas
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2018, 07:59:55 PM »
Catholics developed a very specific Virgin Mary.
For questions about the history of the Lutheran faith see the Book of Concord available from Pastor's office.

Formula of Concord 1577

A restatement of some teachings in the Augsburg Confession over which Lutherans had become divided. The Solid Declaration is the unabridged version. The Epitome is an abridged version intended for congregations to study. Over 8,100 pastors and theologians signed it, as well as over 50 government leaders.



WELS/ELCA/LCMS Church Pastor's Word

Offline Ignatius II

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 83
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2018, 09:41:45 PM »
The Catholic Church communes the Orthodox and allows her faithful to commune in the Orthodox Church.  Were the Orthodox considered heretics, this wouldn't be the case, methinks.  Yet, there isn't even a Catholic consensus if the Orthodox Church is in schism with Rome, given the mess that 1054 was.

But, as a Maronite Catholic who swam the Bosphorus earlier this year, I'd say to not worry about the status you'd leave behind, but the one you'd be embracing.  Subjectively speaking, I do not feel less Catholic, but more Catholic than I've ever been.  Everything that I've loved in the Catholic Church I've found in the Orthodox Church in a deeper and higher degree.

Be not afraid to come into the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church, the Orthodox Church.

I appreciate your comment regarding hat you actually  felt more Catholic  rather than less.

Offline Ignatius II

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 83
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2018, 09:50:05 PM »
The Catholic Church communes the Orthodox and allows her faithful to commune in the Orthodox Church.  Were the Orthodox considered heretics, this wouldn't be the case, methinks.  Yet, there isn't even a Catholic consensus if the Orthodox Church is in schism with Rome, given the mess that 1054 was.

But, as a Maronite Catholic who swam the Bosphorus earlier this year, I'd say to not worry about the status you'd leave behind, but the one you'd be embracing.  Subjectively speaking, I do not feel less Catholic, but more Catholic than I've ever been.  Everything that I've loved in the Catholic Church I've found in the Orthodox Church in a deeper and higher degree.

Be not afraid to come into the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church, the Orthodox Church.

I appreciate your comment that you actually feel "more" Catholic.

Offline noahzarc1

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 153
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Diocese
Re: Convert to Orthodoxy from RC - Struggling with papal claims
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2018, 11:00:41 PM »
Catholic . Primarily trying To understand the position of the Catholic Church. It would seem that if the Orthodox and Catholic are sister churches, conversion should not be acknowledged as a grave matter. However, responses seem to indicate otherwise. Obviously there are many who leave the Catholic Church for Orthodoxy. There is a well known aged monk In Switzerland who did so at age 70  I was questioning if it is the Catholic Church’s position believe that one’s salvation is lost by such a move. There are aobviously differences between the 2 churches with the 2 main issues being the Issue of the Pope and the alteration of the Creed regarding the relationship of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. However, the Catholic Church does allow the Eastern Catholics to worship as Orthodox with a few exceptions.
You are correct, but most Catholics are completely ignorant of the Eastern Rites. Many traditionalist catholics struggle with the Eastern Rites having a Patriarch, which they see as a rival Pope. However, seeing the Eastern Rites preserved as they are shows that their rites have been preserved. In fact, when the Roman Rite changed the rite of ordination for priests after Vatican II, it was to bring their rite of ordination more in line with the Eastern Churches. It seems Rome's apologists are not quite sure what to do with those other churches with apostolic succession.