Topic: Tatoo-encrusted ELCA priestess heretic endorses pornography-viewing

[Alpha60]

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/lutheran-pastor-its-okay-to-look-at-porn-especially-if-its-ethically-source#When:21:56:00Z

As bad as this is, the Mother Goddess Rosaries with an idol of the goddess Aurora on them sold by Ebenezer Lutheran Church, better known as “herchurch,” are worse, in my opinion.  Despite what some LCMS fanboys might insist, immorality and Lutheranism have historically gone hand-in-hand given that Martin Luther violated his monastic vows, married a nun, who violated her vows (although like many nuns in the RCC during that era, it is quite possible she was forced into a convent and if that was the case, as many Lutherans have historically insisted, then her vows were invalid and guilt does not attach to her in the same way), and Martin Luther also proposed polygamy was acceptable within Christianity.   So I would argue the ELCA is actually doing a pretty good job of being Lutheran, by “sinning boldly,” but a terrible job of being Christian.

[Iconodule]

What are we supposed to do with this information?

[Briven]

What are we supposed to do with this information?

Be sad, I guess.

[Alpha60]

We should resolve ourselves firmly that we will not allow the Orthodox Church to go down the drain through which the mainline Protestant churches have flushed themselves.   Some Old Calendarists like to accuse us of being on that trajectory, and you have that “Orthodoxy in Dialogue” blog as proof that there are people in our church who would ruin it if they could.

What I just don’t understand by the way is why these people in the mainline Protestant churches in so many cases forced themselves and their views upon traditionalist parishes which did not want anything to do with it, when there were already liberal Christian denominations available to them. 

[Arachne]

What are we supposed to do with this information?

Be sad, I guess.

Alexa, play despacito.

[Alpha60]

What are we supposed to do with this information?

Be sad, I guess.

It is sad for me, in that in my childhood, my loving godfather, who died when I was ten, was my great uncle Eugene Larson, a Swedish American priest in the Augustana Synod which was one of several churches which merged into the ELCA.  He was a very good Christian although I daresay not a very good Lutheran (historically Swedish Lutheranism tended to be the most traditional variety of it).

As a Russian Old Believer, you have a different takeaway, which would be “There but for the grace of God go I,” in that the Varangians and the Rus were Scandinavians who were if memory serves largely from what is now Sweden (I don’t know if they were directly related to the Svea or the Geats or the Norje or represented another tribe), and so your distant ancestors had the misfortune to not wind up blessed by being born into the beautiful traditions of the Russian Old Rite.  However, although I would disagree with you in all probability about the extent of the damage caused by the Nikonian reforms, I would suggest their mere existence indicates the possibility that even what is at present an arch-traditionalist Orthodox church like yours could one day find itself struggling with the forces of secularization and the same kind of corruption that in the case of the ELCA led to this.

With the Nikonian schism, the insanity manifested itself differently in the form of the “mutilators” and some other weird sects like the iconoclastic “Hole worshippers” and the dreadful Doukhobors.

[Alpha60]

What are we supposed to do with this information?

Be sad, I guess.

Alexa, play despacito.

I don’t use an Alexa device myself as Amazon’s music library seems to lag behind that of Apple Music, although I seldom use Siri on my Homepods to issue any commands other than to change the volume and pause or unpause the music.

[Tzimis]

What are we supposed to do with this information?

Be sad, I guess.

Alexa, play despacito.

You mean. Thes Pastichio. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j8EmFn3KXNA

[Jackson02]

What are we supposed to do with this information?

Be sad, I guess.

Pretty much.

[Luke]

What does "ethically sourced" mean?  It kind of sounds like a "dietary Twinkie."

[platypus]

… she was chosen to speak to 31,000 ELCA teenagers at a summer youth conference.

Good grief.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

My generation grew up with internet porn, and many never kicked the habit. I have friends who can no longer become aroused without watching video porn. Images, actual girls, no longer excite them. And these are healthy, good-looking, athletic guys in their 20s. I think some older pastors -like this woman- who grew up when a dirty magazine was considered hardcore pornography probably have no idea the extent of the problem.

[JTLoganville]

What does "ethically sourced" mean?  It kind of sounds like a "dietary Twinkie."

Another discussion board on this topic included a link to an article in Cosmopolitan magazine which included at least half a dozen bullet points describing "ethically sourced".  My recollection is that these included:  actor consent, including signed forms; no persons under 18; and in Cosmo's opinion the most important--that the viewer has actually paid for the product.

[Asteriktos]

If the atheist Orthodox is really an atheist Orthodox, he wouldn’t care so much about God what others are doing.  Let him focus on creating a life without evil—his own.

[DeniseDenise]

Seriously alpha, you allow yourself to develop such strong outrage over things.

And honestly telling an Old Believer that they don’t get it. Really poor form. As if you are some arbitrator of what each of us must feel outraged about.

[Briven]

What are we supposed to do with this information?

Be sad, I guess.

It is sad for me, in that in my childhood, my loving godfather, who died when I was ten, was my great uncle Eugene Larson, a Swedish American priest in the Augustana Synod which was one of several churches which merged into the ELCA.  He was a very good Christian although I daresay not a very good Lutheran (historically Swedish Lutheranism tended to be the most traditional variety of it).

As a Russian Old Believer, you have a different takeaway, which would be “There but for the grace of God go I,” in that the Varangians and the Rus were Scandinavians who were if memory serves largely from what is now Sweden (I don’t know if they were directly related to the Svea or the Geats or the Norje or represented another tribe), and so your distant ancestors had the misfortune to not wind up blessed by being born into the beautiful traditions of the Russian Old Rite.  However, although I would disagree with you in all probability about the extent of the damage caused by the Nikonian reforms, I would suggest their mere existence indicates the possibility that even what is at present an arch-traditionalist Orthodox church like yours could one day find itself struggling with the forces of secularization and the same kind of corruption that in the case of the ELCA led to this.

With the Nikonian schism, the insanity manifested itself differently in the form of the “mutilators” and some other weird sects like the iconoclastic “Hole worshippers” and the dreadful Doukhobors.

I'm sure I don't understand degeneration of Churches and their rites over time

 

[DeniseDenise]

Not like he does.


After all, his childhood faith is a schism of a schismatic church to begin with.

[Alpha60]

What are we supposed to do with this information?

Be sad, I guess.

It is sad for me, in that in my childhood, my loving godfather, who died when I was ten, was my great uncle Eugene Larson, a Swedish American priest in the Augustana Synod which was one of several churches which merged into the ELCA.  He was a very good Christian although I daresay not a very good Lutheran (historically Swedish Lutheranism tended to be the most traditional variety of it).

As a Russian Old Believer, you have a different takeaway, which would be “There but for the grace of God go I,” in that the Varangians and the Rus were Scandinavians who were if memory serves largely from what is now Sweden (I don’t know if they were directly related to the Svea or the Geats or the Norje or represented another tribe), and so your distant ancestors had the misfortune to not wind up blessed by being born into the beautiful traditions of the Russian Old Rite.  However, although I would disagree with you in all probability about the extent of the damage caused by the Nikonian reforms, I would suggest their mere existence indicates the possibility that even what is at present an arch-traditionalist Orthodox church like yours could one day find itself struggling with the forces of secularization and the same kind of corruption that in the case of the ELCA led to this.

With the Nikonian schism, the insanity manifested itself differently in the form of the “mutilators” and some other weird sects like the iconoclastic “Hole worshippers” and the dreadful Doukhobors.

I'm sure I don't understand degeneration of Churches and their rites over time

 

Well, given how Old Believers and Edinovertsy have managed to preserve the pre-Nikonian liturgy with such care and attention to detail, it seems to me you have something special in this regard.

[Alpha60]

… she was chosen to speak to 31,000 ELCA teenagers at a summer youth conference.

Good grief.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

My generation grew up with internet porn, and many never kicked the habit. I have friends who can no longer become aroused without watching video porn. Images, actual girls, no longer excite them. And these are healthy, good-looking, athletic guys in their 20s. I think some older pastors -like this woman- who grew up when a dirty magazine was considered hardcore pornography probably have no idea the extent of the problem.

This is a valid point.  I have heard of such addictions and it represents a real problem.  Also these youths in many cases might resort to viewing such porn rather than attempting to build relationships.

Of all of the people who I think we would not want talking to our youth, this woman is near the top of the list.

[Jackson02]

What are we supposed to do with this information?

Be sad, I guess.

It is sad for me, in that in my childhood, my loving godfather, who died when I was ten, was my great uncle Eugene Larson, a Swedish American priest in the Augustana Synod which was one of several churches which merged into the ELCA.  He was a very good Christian although I daresay not a very good Lutheran (historically Swedish Lutheranism tended to be the most traditional variety of it).

As a Russian Old Believer, you have a different takeaway, which would be “There but for the grace of God go I,” in that the Varangians and the Rus were Scandinavians who were if memory serves largely from what is now Sweden (I don’t know if they were directly related to the Svea or the Geats or the Norje or represented another tribe), and so your distant ancestors had the misfortune to not wind up blessed by being born into the beautiful traditions of the Russian Old Rite.  However, although I would disagree with you in all probability about the extent of the damage caused by the Nikonian reforms, I would suggest their mere existence indicates the possibility that even what is at present an arch-traditionalist Orthodox church like yours could one day find itself struggling with the forces of secularization and the same kind of corruption that in the case of the ELCA led to this.

With the Nikonian schism, the insanity manifested itself differently in the form of the “mutilators” and some other weird sects like the iconoclastic “Hole worshippers” and the dreadful Doukhobors.

I'm sure I don't understand degeneration of Churches and their rites over time

 

I like your sense of humour Briven.

[biro]

… she was chosen to speak to 31,000 ELCA teenagers at a summer youth conference.

Good grief.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

My generation grew up with internet porn, and many never kicked the habit. I have friends who can no longer become aroused without watching video porn. Images, actual girls, no longer excite them. And these are healthy, good-looking, athletic guys in their 20s. I think some older pastors -like this woman- who grew up when a dirty magazine was considered hardcore pornography probably have no idea the extent of the problem.

This is a valid point.  I have heard of such addictions and it represents a real problem.  Also these youths in many cases might resort to viewing such porn rather than attempting to build relationships.

Of all of the people who I think we would not want talking to our youth, this woman is near the top of the list.

To your youth?

She's a Lutheran.

[hecma925]

As if being "encrusted" in tattoos makes a person objectively bad.

[FinnJames]

As if being "encrusted" in tattoos makes a person objectively bad.

Depends on the tattoo, surely? Any Augustana Synod Lutheran design must thrust one beyond the pale. 

[hecma925]

As if being "encrusted" in tattoos makes a person objectively bad.

Depends on the tattoo, surely? Any Augustana Synod Lutheran design must thrust one beyond the pale. 

Get thee to the nearest Lutheran tattoo artist!

[Alpha60]

As if being "encrusted" in tattoos makes a person objectively bad.

Fr. John Whiteford of ROCOR has written a compelling piece on the objective wrongness of tatoos.  The main extent to which a tatoo can be justified in my opinion is their use (which Fr. Whiteford objected to, but on this point he was in error) to demarcate Christians in Muslim-majority countries as a means of creating an indelible reminder of the faith into which they were baptized if it should happen they might be forcibly converted into Islam, where the use of such tatoos is customary; to wit, among the Coptic Orthodox and the Bosnian Catholics.

The biomedical use of tatoos also seems reasonable, for example, the routine use of tatoos for aiming purposes in radiation therapy on cancerous tumors, and also perhaps a discrete tatoo indicating blood type and major allergies to medication, although this later function could also be accomplished with RFID tags.

People who cover themselves with tatoos however are morally degenerate, and indeed, most police departments in the US and the military will not hire people who have non-religious tatoos that would not be completely concealed by the uniform, or any tatoos suggestive of gang affiliation.

… she was chosen to speak to 31,000 ELCA teenagers at a summer youth conference.

Good grief.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

My generation grew up with internet porn, and many never kicked the habit. I have friends who can no longer become aroused without watching video porn. Images, actual girls, no longer excite them. And these are healthy, good-looking, athletic guys in their 20s. I think some older pastors -like this woman- who grew up when a dirty magazine was considered hardcore pornography probably have no idea the extent of the problem.

This is a valid point.  I have heard of such addictions and it represents a real problem.  Also these youths in many cases might resort to viewing such porn rather than attempting to build relationships.

Of all of the people who I think we would not want talking to our youth, this woman is near the top of the list.

To your youth?

She's a Lutheran.

This does not abrogate us from a need to pray for those children to whom she is promoting the use of pornography.  If we think millenials have problems, and indeed they do, future generations raised under the influence of monsters like that wolf in sheep’s clothing are likely to have even more problems.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

I was with her up to a point. I agree that the whole divine guilt-tripping approach is neither holy nor pragmatic. But what I don’t get is how this woman is willing to shame others who may not agree with her “laissez faire” approach to morality. In the name of "not shaming" she shames those who dare to choose to pursue sexual purity. Thus, the church of her own invention becomes guilty of the very thing she presumes to oppose.

Plus, the whole hipster theology thing is just downright cheesy.

Selam

[Agabus]

Well, she's wrong, but the LieSite handwringing makes me wonder how much she's being misrepresented. It's their bread and butter.

And I refuse to clutch pearls at the idea that her church has LGBT members.

[Cognomen]

Fr. John Whiteford of ROCOR has written a compelling piece on the objective wrongness of tatoos.

Consider this is my not-so-compelling piece on the objective wrongness of Fr. John Whiteford of ROCOR. Without having read his argument, the "objective" claim, whether made by him or passed on by you, seems a stretch. Tattoos as a bad idea? Ok. Some bad content out there? Sure. Better focuses and ways to spend your money? Likely. Wrong? Pushing it. Objectively wrong? Downright silly. Does he cite Leviticus too? That's super persuasive!

The main extent to which a tatoo can be justified in my opinion...

I recognize that this is a forum to share perspectives, but you grant way too much importance to your opinions. 

People who cover themselves with tatoos however are morally degenerate...

The beacon of virtue hath proclaimeth!

and indeed, most police departments in the US and the military will not hire people who have non-religious tatoos that would not be completely concealed by the uniform, or any tatoos suggestive of gang affiliation.

Where do you come up with this stuff? 

[Briven]

Tattoos are dumb but not evil

[hecma925]

Tattoos are dumb but not evil

What makes them dumb, besides the fact that they can't speak?

[Briven]

Tattoos are dumb but not evil

What makes them dumb, besides the fact that they can't speak?

This is my personal opinion, honestly. I just don't like them.

[Agabus]

and indeed, most police departments in the US and the military will not hire people who have non-religious tatoos that would not be completely concealed by the uniform, or any tatoos suggestive of gang affiliation.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

I missed this gem the first read through.

If the military had an issue with tattoos, there would hardly be a member of the USMC, or — for that matter — all those cops who are veterans.

[Alpha60]

and indeed, most police departments in the US and the military will not hire people who have non-religious tatoos that would not be completely concealed by the uniform, or any tatoos suggestive of gang affiliation.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

I missed this gem the first read through.

If the military had an issue with tattoos, there would hardly be a member of the USMC, or — for that matter — all those cops who are veterans.

I stand by my point, and I can prove it from the official websites of the USAF and the LAPD.

The issue is with tatoos that are visible outside the sleeves of the uniform, for example, tatoos on tne forehead or the back of the neck.  Tatoos on the upper arm are extremely common and are of course allowed by the military and police departments.  Fleet Admiral William F. “Bull” Halsey for example had a tatoo of an anchor on his left shoulder.   

I once saw a woman who had a tatoo which cursed the reader thereof in the most extreme possible way, containing the F word, on the back of her neck, and this is obviously an example of a tatoo that would be disqualifying. 

Here are the current USAF rules on tatoos, which were recently relaxed, but which are still quite strict, and which can even result in disqualification from the scarring resulting from tatoo removal: https://www.airforce.com/how-to-join/prepare-for-success/meet-requirements  (See Tatoos, brands and piercings)

And here you see the LAPD policy on tattoos, which completely prohibits tattoos which would be visible while the officer is on duty: https://www.joinlapd.com/lapd-frequently-asked-questions

All other tattoos are visible on a case-by-case basis. So certainly if someone has a typical Marine Corps “Semper Fi” tattoo in a place where their LAPD uniform would conceal it, that should be fine, but on the other hand if their forearms look like Ray Bradbury’s Illustrated Man, or if they have any tattoos that look like jailhouse or gang tattoos, the LAPD will probably disqualify them.

This is just the LAPD; I am sure we could find other police departments with more lax policies or indeed with stricter policies, if we really cared, but the beauty of the LAPD is that it is extremely typical of modern professional police departments and is a good “reference agency” for contemporary American police departments.  And they have awesome-looking badges.

[Alpha60]

Where do you come up with this stuff?

From the websites of the police departments in question (see above).

[Agabus]

and indeed, most police departments in the US and the military will not hire people who have non-religious tatoos that would not be completely concealed by the uniform, or any tatoos suggestive of gang affiliation.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

I missed this gem the first read through.

If the military had an issue with tattoos, there would hardly be a member of the USMC, or — for that matter — all those cops who are veterans.

I stand by my point, and I can prove it from the official websites of the USAF and the LAPD.

The issue is with tatoos that are visible outside the sleeves of the uniform, for example, tatoos on tne forehead or the back of the neck.  Tatoos on the upper arm are extremely common and are of course allowed by the military and police departments.  Fleet Admiral William F. “Bull” Halsey for example had a tatoo of an anchor on his left shoulder.   

I once saw a woman who had a tatoo which cursed the reader thereof in the most extreme possible way, containing the F word, on the back of her neck, and this is obviously an example of a tatoo that would be disqualifying. 

Here are the current USAF rules on tatoos, which were recently relaxed, but which are still quite strict, and which can even result in disqualification from the scarring resulting from tatoo removal: https://www.airforce.com/how-to-join/prepare-for-success/meet-requirements  (See Tatoos, brands and piercings)

And here you see the LAPD policy on tattoos, which completely prohibits tattoos which would be visible while the officer is on duty: https://www.joinlapd.com/lapd-frequently-asked-questions

All other tattoos are visible on a case-by-case basis. So certainly if someone has a typical Marine Corps “Semper Fi” tattoo in a place where their LAPD uniform would conceal it, that should be fine, but on the other hand if their forearms look like Ray Bradbury’s Illustrated Man, or if they have any tattoos that look like jailhouse or gang tattoos, the LAPD will probably disqualify them.

This is just the LAPD; I am sure we could find other police departments with more lax policies or indeed with stricter policies, if we really cared, but the beauty of the LAPD is that it is extremely typical of modern professional police departments and is a good “reference agency” for contemporary American police departments.  And they have awesome-looking badges.

Uh-huh.

Neck and forehead tattoos are one thing, but getting ink is a part of military culture these days. A guy I worked with until a couple of weeks ago did three tours in the Middle East, and had full sleeve tattoos on both arms. His words: "It's a big part of the lifestyle."

And while the LAPD may have its own codes, I don't know of a police or sheriff's department in this region that doesn't have inked up officers/deputies, mostly because they're very often guys who phased into law enforcement after leaving the military.

[Alpha60]

and indeed, most police departments in the US and the military will not hire people who have non-religious tatoos that would not be completely concealed by the uniform, or any tatoos suggestive of gang affiliation.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

I missed this gem the first read through.

If the military had an issue with tattoos, there would hardly be a member of the USMC, or — for that matter — all those cops who are veterans.

I stand by my point, and I can prove it from the official websites of the USAF and the LAPD.

The issue is with tatoos that are visible outside the sleeves of the uniform, for example, tatoos on tne forehead or the back of the neck.  Tatoos on the upper arm are extremely common and are of course allowed by the military and police departments.  Fleet Admiral William F. “Bull” Halsey for example had a tatoo of an anchor on his left shoulder.   

I once saw a woman who had a tatoo which cursed the reader thereof in the most extreme possible way, containing the F word, on the back of her neck, and this is obviously an example of a tatoo that would be disqualifying. 

Here are the current USAF rules on tatoos, which were recently relaxed, but which are still quite strict, and which can even result in disqualification from the scarring resulting from tatoo removal: https://www.airforce.com/how-to-join/prepare-for-success/meet-requirements  (See Tatoos, brands and piercings)

And here you see the LAPD policy on tattoos, which completely prohibits tattoos which would be visible while the officer is on duty: https://www.joinlapd.com/lapd-frequently-asked-questions

All other tattoos are visible on a case-by-case basis. So certainly if someone has a typical Marine Corps “Semper Fi” tattoo in a place where their LAPD uniform would conceal it, that should be fine, but on the other hand if their forearms look like Ray Bradbury’s Illustrated Man, or if they have any tattoos that look like jailhouse or gang tattoos, the LAPD will probably disqualify them.

This is just the LAPD; I am sure we could find other police departments with more lax policies or indeed with stricter policies, if we really cared, but the beauty of the LAPD is that it is extremely typical of modern professional police departments and is a good “reference agency” for contemporary American police departments.  And they have awesome-looking badges.

Uh-huh.

Neck and forehead tattoos are one thing, but getting ink is a part of military culture these days. A guy I worked with until a couple of weeks ago did three tours in the Middle East, and had full sleeve tattoos on both arms. His words: "It's a big part of the lifestyle."

And while the LAPD may have its own codes, I don't know of a police or sheriff's department in this region that doesn't have inked up officers/deputies, mostly because they're very often guys who phased into law enforcement after leaving the military.

Indeed; I’m sure many LAPD officers have military tattoos, provided their “Class C” uniforms cover it up.  The LAPD also does famously have its own “codes”, that is to say, they do not use 10-codes but rather use a series of numbered codes which date back to the early days of radio cars, when LAPD had the callsign KMA-367.   They recently retired Code 7, which was the code used for a car to go off duty for a meal, but other codes, such as code 2, code 3, code 4 and code 6, are widely used by the LAPD and also used by some other departments, even those with “10-codes.”

[hecma925]

So, I take it you don't know many military folks.

[DeniseDenise]

he knows ALL of them ...


which is clearly what makes him capable of telling us what they do and thing...and how things that others are doing are wrong..etc.


Honestly, this world would be a better place if some people would just keep their eyes on their own damn plate......instead of trying to be a know it all about every topic under the sun

[hecma925]

Alpha60, I invite you to meet several of my friends, so that you may tell them that they are morally degenerate to their face.

[Alpha60]

I have the highest regard for our active duty soldiers and military veterans and my remarks concerning the moral degenercy of tattoos were not aimed at them; I should probably have raised an exception on that point, since it seems to me that military tattoos are, like the tattoos of Coptic and Bosnian Christians, of a different character.  What I find to be morally objectionable are the sort of tattoos that needlessly cover large sections of the body, piercings also, and especially tattoos associated with criminal gangs and the tattoos which prisoners in jails tend to illegally and at great peril to their health, receive.

Alpha60, I invite you to meet several of my friends, so that you may tell them that they are morally degenerate to their face.

If your friends are military veterans I should not do that but instead thank them for their service.  Comtrariwise if theh were members of criminal gangs I expect I would hightail it out of there. 

Now also by the way you chaps should realize that I do pray the precommunion prayer in which I admit I am the worst of sinners, and I do believe it.  So when I raise the case of a Lutheran heresiarch who is engaging in moral corruption, I am not attempting to “virtue signal” or suggest that I am morally superior to her; despite the fact that her views on pornography are reprehensible, I expect that the Lutheran priestess in question is a better person, less sinful, than I am.   So lets bear that in mind. 

I am a horrible sinner, I am more morally depraved than anyone who merely has a naughty tattoo; I am a vainglorious glutton prone to moments of wrath and with a nasty tendency to bear grudges, and I beg all of you to pray for me, a sinner.

In this thread my point was to alert us to something else we should pray for, where the leader of a heterodox church who is nonetheless less sinful than myself is teaching something which could be very destructive to the Christian youth, particularly ELCA youth, but due to the Internet we can’t rule out Orthodox youth being exposed to errors like that from outside the Church.

[Alpo]

Why do  you have so many opinions on everything?