Author Topic: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?  (Read 732 times)

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Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

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Quote
Epicurus: "Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?"

Theist 1: "Yes."

Epicurus: "Then God is malevolent."

Theist 1: "No. He allows evil to be a test for us."

Epicurus: "If God is all knowing, then he would know our actions if he tested us, so there is no need for testing."

Theist 2: "God could not have created a world with free will and without evil."

Epicurus: "Then God is not all powerful."

Saw this from an Atheist, response?

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2018, 06:16:21 PM »
Quote
Epicurus: "Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?"

Theist 1: "Yes."

Epicurus: "Then God is malevolent."

Theist 1: "No. He allows evil to be a test for us."

Epicurus: "If God is all knowing, then he would know our actions if he tested us, so there is no need for testing."

Theist 2: "God could not have created a world with free will and without evil."

Epicurus: "Then God is not all powerful."

Saw this from an Atheist, response?
Free will is needed for love to flourish. Tell your theist friend that love overcomes deficiency as long as the deficient is willing to learn.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2018, 08:05:57 PM »
Maybe the questions should be focused on why God did what He did, and what He desires of us.  Instead, the entire intent seems to be to disprove God.  If there's no will to seek Him, no answer will ever matter.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2018, 08:29:18 PM »
Maybe the questions should be focused on why God did what He did, and what He desires of us.  Instead, the entire intent seems to be to disprove God.  If there's no will to seek Him, no answer will ever matter.
True. God didn't create evil though.  He created the situation for seperation and death as mercy.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2018, 09:03:59 PM »
Quote
Epicurus: "Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?"

Theist 1: "Yes."

Epicurus: "Then God is malevolent."

Theist 1: "No. He allows evil to be a test for us."

Epicurus: "If God is all knowing, then he would know our actions if he tested us, so there is no need for testing."

Theist 2: "God could not have created a world with free will and without evil."

Epicurus: "Then God is not all powerful."

Saw this from an Atheist, response?

If the atheist is really an atheist, he wouldn’t care so much about God.  Let him focus on creating a life without evil—his own.

I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2018, 09:09:04 PM »
Our language is built according to what is, not what could be, so our concepts of free will and evil don't make sense in a universe where the former exists and the latter doesn't. However, God could have done whatever he wanted to and our concepts would follow.

I know this is not the answer you were expecting, but I'm breaking your question down.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 09:11:00 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2018, 11:35:48 PM »
Maybe the questions should be focused on why God did what He did, and what He desires of us.  Instead, the entire intent seems to be to disprove God.  If there's no will to seek Him, no answer will ever matter.

Atheists love to try and stump the faithful.
Id say not to bother, because nothing you say will matter.

Waste of time

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2018, 11:55:58 PM »
Quote
Epicurus: "Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?"

Theist 1: "Yes."

Epicurus: "Then God is malevolent."

Theist 1: "No. He allows evil to be a test for us."

Epicurus: "If God is all knowing, then he would know our actions if he tested us, so there is no need for testing."

Theist 2: "God could not have created a world with free will and without evil."

Epicurus: "Then God is not all powerful."

Saw this from an Atheist, response?

There is none. It's tradition that God's rationality outstrips our own. The atheist has a point, but only within the context of our own rational limits. The best "answer" anyone could come up with is to have faith in a god whose rationality supersedes our own understanding. I doubt such an answer, however, would prove satisfactory to the atheist. But I think it is a lot better and more honest than giving out platitudes of love, a common and increasingly tiresome trope nowadays.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Luke

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2018, 12:24:55 AM »
Epicurus: "Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?"
The Lord knows.

Offline tcolon90

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2018, 01:21:16 AM »
The first point is bunk. Just because God allows us to choose evil doesnt mean hes malevolent. I would argue it means the opposite. His statement only holds true if we accept that his worldview is true. But again its just a stupid trap that doesnt take into account his false presuppositions.

Tell him to worry about resolving his own contradictions within his world view before making up some juvenile crap.
"For where the body is, the eagles will gather."

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2018, 04:52:17 PM »
Metropolitan Kallistos Ware argued the only thing God cannot do is force us to love Him voluntarily.  Evil is the condition of not loving God; without the choice to love God voluntarily such love would be meaningless, ergo, free will naturally involves the condition of evil.

Isaiah531sMessiah, you should be aware that atheists will most frequently attack Christianity on grounds like this, which operate in a complex area of theology and apologetics known as Theodicy, an area focused on the question of “How could God allow this?”  It’s a dangerous area for an amateur who is not familiar with apologetics and who has not studied the problem to try and debate; what is more, misconceptions about divine omnipotence, the nature of God and ultimately, the problem of evil, in short, misconceptions concerning Theodicy, lie at or near the heart of the belief systems of most Atheists; it is by obsessing on an erroneous conception of Theodicy that they lose their belief, or confirm their disbelief, in the existance of God or other deities.*

*I would further argue that the incompetent approach to the Theodicy question taken by non-Orthodox Christians, in particular, the gruesome Calvinist doctrine of double predestination/forordination to damnation, combined with the utter lack of satisfactory answers to this question by non-Christian religions like Islam, which drives intelligent people of conscience towards atheist humanism, and these people tend to have a very toxic outlook on religion as a whole, consequently.   The best most of us can do for them is pray; it is unlikely you will be able to argue with them and successfully convince them of your faith in that manner; in Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy, Second Edition, by Fr. Andrew S. Damick, he points out the futility of trying to convert people through polemical argumentation.
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

I beg of all members of OCNet to make it their new years resolution to adopt the Golden Rule in threads and be nice to each other.  It’s the Orthodox Christian thing to do.  Be nice, and remember, in the immortal words of Patrick Swayze of blessed memory, that no one ever wins a fight.

Also, if I have ever offended you in my posts or conduct, I apologize. 

Sts. Cyril, Maximus and Mark of Ephesus, pray for us!

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2018, 06:40:52 PM »
Quote
Epicurus: "Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?"

Theist 1: "Yes."

Epicurus: "Then God is malevolent."

Theist 1: "No. He allows evil to be a test for us."

Epicurus: "If God is all knowing, then he would know our actions if he tested us, so there is no need for testing."

Theist 2: "God could not have created a world with free will and without evil."

Epicurus: "Then God is not all powerful."

Saw this from an Atheist, response?
Mu
« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 06:41:12 PM by Justin Kolodziej »
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2018, 07:11:31 PM »
Pretty much.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2018, 07:27:46 PM »
Quote
Epicurus: "Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?"

Theist 1: "Yes."

Epicurus: "Then God is malevolent."

Theist 1: "No. He allows evil to be a test for us."

Epicurus: "If God is all knowing, then he would know our actions if he tested us, so there is no need for testing."

Theist 2: "God could not have created a world with free will and without evil."

Epicurus: "Then God is not all powerful."

Saw this from an Atheist, response?
Mu
The whole aspect of salvation is wrapped up in choice.  A person who chooses to conform to the natural will is saved. While the one who chooses his own will isn't.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2018, 12:34:45 AM »
Quote
Epicurus: "Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?"

Theist 1: "Yes."

Epicurus: "Then God is malevolent."

Theist 1: "No. He allows evil to be a test for us."

Epicurus: "If God is all knowing, then he would know our actions if he tested us, so there is no need for testing."

Theist 2: "God could not have created a world with free will and without evil."

Epicurus: "Then God is not all powerful."

Saw this from an Atheist, response?
Mu

Oh dude you quoted the Jargon File!   You rock!  I have mentioned it on OCNet, but never had the guts to actually answer a post with “Mu.”  You have at least temporarily usurped me as the Alpha Geek of OCNet.  I’m going to have to install a PDP-10 emulator running ITS now in order to reclaim my former exalted state.

But seriously, “mu” is a good answer to a lot of the questions atheists pose to us regarding the issue of theodicy, because their questions rest on a false dichotomy, which is often due to the errors of Calvinism or some other heterodox sect.  In other cases, atheists will pose intellectually dishonest trick questions in an attempt to “trap” us and score polemic-points.
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

I beg of all members of OCNet to make it their new years resolution to adopt the Golden Rule in threads and be nice to each other.  It’s the Orthodox Christian thing to do.  Be nice, and remember, in the immortal words of Patrick Swayze of blessed memory, that no one ever wins a fight.

Also, if I have ever offended you in my posts or conduct, I apologize. 

Sts. Cyril, Maximus and Mark of Ephesus, pray for us!

Offline Luke

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2018, 12:39:44 AM »
^ What do you mean by mu?

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2018, 08:28:56 AM »
^ What do you mean by mu?
There is a url with the definition.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2018, 08:09:18 PM »
^ What do you mean by mu?

Mu is a Japanese word used as a catch-all to answer questions that are invalid.  For example, if someone asked you “Do you still murder people?” you would reply “Mu” (unless of course the answer actually was “no”, or worse, “yes”, in which case, excuse me while I flee quickly).
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

I beg of all members of OCNet to make it their new years resolution to adopt the Golden Rule in threads and be nice to each other.  It’s the Orthodox Christian thing to do.  Be nice, and remember, in the immortal words of Patrick Swayze of blessed memory, that no one ever wins a fight.

Also, if I have ever offended you in my posts or conduct, I apologize. 

Sts. Cyril, Maximus and Mark of Ephesus, pray for us!

Offline WPM

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2018, 10:37:45 PM »
I don't know.
Jesus Prayer : the invocation of the name of Jesus, most commonly, 'Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me' , although there are a number of variant forms. Not merely a technique or a Christian mantra, but a prayer addressed to the person of Jesus Christ, expressing our living faith in Him as Son of God and Savior.

Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2018, 01:19:23 AM »
Quote
Epicurus: "Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?"

Theist 1: "Yes."

Epicurus: "Then God is malevolent."

Theist 1: "No. He allows evil to be a test for us."

Epicurus: "If God is all knowing, then he would know our actions if he tested us, so there is no need for testing."

Theist 2: "God could not have created a world with free will and without evil."

Epicurus: "Then God is not all powerful."

Saw this from an Atheist, response?

God DID create a world with free will and without evil.  The question itself is based on the false understanding that God created evil.  He didn't.  Evil entered in through the free will of his creatures, both angelic and human.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 01:24:53 AM by PorphyriosK »

Offline Sethrak

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2018, 01:26:07 AM »
He did create the everything without evil ~ Evil Happened of Sheytans  freewill ~ it was what he chose ```
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 01:29:10 AM by Sethrak »

Offline ayenew

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2018, 04:11:32 AM »
It is the contrite and humble heart longing for God which will reach Him. I don't think these kind of debates are of any benefit.

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2018, 12:20:12 PM »
Quote
Epicurus: "Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?"

Theist 1: "Yes."

Epicurus: "Then God is malevolent."

Theist 1: "No. He allows evil to be a test for us."

Epicurus: "If God is all knowing, then he would know our actions if he tested us, so there is no need for testing."

Theist 2: "God could not have created a world with free will and without evil."

Epicurus: "Then God is not all powerful."

Saw this from an Atheist, response?
let me try

Epicurus:"Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?"
- Eventually the universe will be without evil, would you be a part of this blissful world ?

Epicurus: "Then God is malevolent."
Childish, God is God, stop anticipating and feeling entitled for someone to change your pampers and wipe your ass. We all have difficult lives, you are probably given more goods then most christians anyway. Be thankful.

Epicurus:"If God is all knowing, then he would know our actions if he tested us, so there is no need for testing."
- Human beings are substantially the same. If people could pass the test, then you have no excuse whatsoever for not passing it.

Epicurus: "Then God is not all powerful."
You don't get to command how God uses His powers.

« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 12:23:18 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline WPM

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2018, 01:45:16 PM »
Quote
Epicurus: "Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?"

Theist 1: "Yes."

Epicurus: "Then God is malevolent."

Theist 1: "No. He allows evil to be a test for us."

Epicurus: "If God is all knowing, then he would know our actions if he tested us, so there is no need for testing."

Theist 2: "God could not have created a world with free will and without evil."

Epicurus: "Then God is not all powerful."

Saw this from an Atheist, response?

They're just "atheists" don't be trapped by their debate or questioning
Jesus Prayer : the invocation of the name of Jesus, most commonly, 'Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me' , although there are a number of variant forms. Not merely a technique or a Christian mantra, but a prayer addressed to the person of Jesus Christ, expressing our living faith in Him as Son of God and Savior.

Online platypus

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2018, 12:57:05 AM »
Quote
Epicurus: "Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?"

Theist 1: "Yes."

Epicurus: "Then God is malevolent."

Theist 1: "No. He allows evil to be a test for us."

Epicurus: "If God is all knowing, then he would know our actions if he tested us, so there is no need for testing."

Theist 2: "God could not have created a world with free will and without evil."

Epicurus: "Then God is not all powerful."

Saw this from an Atheist, response?

God DID create a world with free will and without evil.  The question itself is based on the false understanding that God created evil.  He didn't.  Evil entered in through the free will of his creatures, both angelic and human.

That is an excellent answer, PorphyriosK. "Could God create a world with free will but without evil?" boils down to "Could God let us choose between good and evil without letting us choose evil?"
"Eternal truth finds no favorable soil where one encounters at every turn the skeptical, sarcastic query 'what is truth,' where life insurance takes the place of eternal hope." -Hieromonk Antonius

Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity. -Ecclesiastes 12:8

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2018, 06:04:47 AM »
Quote
Epicurus: "Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?"

Theist 1: "Yes."

Epicurus: "Then God is malevolent."

Theist 1: "No. He allows evil to be a test for us."

Epicurus: "If God is all knowing, then he would know our actions if he tested us, so there is no need for testing."

Theist 2: "God could not have created a world with free will and without evil."

Epicurus: "Then God is not all powerful."

Saw this from an Atheist, response?

God DID create a world with free will and without evil.  The question itself is based on the false understanding that God created evil.  He didn't.  Evil entered in through the free will of his creatures, both angelic and human.

That is an excellent answer, PorphyriosK. "Could God create a world with free will but without evil?" boils down to "Could God let us choose between good and evil without letting us choose evil?"
No. That wouldn't be free will. Free will is necessary for love to flourish.  God doesn't want to coerce people into obedience.  He wants people to choose the good in freedom and because they love.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Sethrak

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2018, 01:52:41 PM »
Yep ```

Online platypus

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2018, 08:02:06 PM »
Quote
Epicurus: "Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?"

Theist 1: "Yes."

Epicurus: "Then God is malevolent."

Theist 1: "No. He allows evil to be a test for us."

Epicurus: "If God is all knowing, then he would know our actions if he tested us, so there is no need for testing."

Theist 2: "God could not have created a world with free will and without evil."

Epicurus: "Then God is not all powerful."

Saw this from an Atheist, response?

God DID create a world with free will and without evil.  The question itself is based on the false understanding that God created evil.  He didn't.  Evil entered in through the free will of his creatures, both angelic and human.

That is an excellent answer, PorphyriosK. "Could God create a world with free will but without evil?" boils down to "Could God let us choose between good and evil without letting us choose evil?"
No. That wouldn't be free will. Free will is necessary for love to flourish.  God doesn't want to coerce people into obedience.  He wants people to choose the good in freedom and because they love.

Exactly
"Eternal truth finds no favorable soil where one encounters at every turn the skeptical, sarcastic query 'what is truth,' where life insurance takes the place of eternal hope." -Hieromonk Antonius

Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity. -Ecclesiastes 12:8

Offline Sethrak

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Re: Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2018, 08:13:07 PM »
We can't go on without asking Him ```