Author Topic: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”  (Read 14624 times)

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Offline Mercurius1

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #585 on: December 07, 2018, 11:09:01 AM »
The craziness continues. The EP has turned Orthodoxy into a telenovela. All the work put forth to create the Episcopal Assemblies and lead to greater unity is dead. The divisions created by this affront will last for generations.

He seems to be trying to move toward a papal model. I'm guessing it will turn out as well for him as it did for Rome in 1054. Maybe we should do away with the term First Among Equals

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #586 on: December 07, 2018, 01:14:43 PM »
http://orthochristian.com/117748.html?fbclid=IwAR3jYrkXnXEzx6xoQS3f1XWBYdJguIsLvpaxiIRXN6QwzRYEIvcagZyE52M

ANOTHER CONSTANTINOPLE PRIEST IN AMERICA SWITCHES TO ROCOR

After 16 years of service.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #587 on: December 07, 2018, 02:10:55 PM »
Lord, have mercy.  Fr. Nectarios is a good priest.
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #588 on: December 07, 2018, 02:28:12 PM »
http://orthochristian.com/117750.html

I don't know if I agree with the title of the article:
CONSTANTINOPLE INTERNALLY DIVIDED ON PROCESS FOR ELECTING PRIMATE OF NEW UKRAINIAN CHURCH

It really appears that they mean the EP and the KP are divided.

Article from the KP website that is referenced in the article above.
https://www.cerkva.info/church/zhurnal-zasidannia-sviashchennoho-synodu-6-hrudnia-2018-r

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Offline Dominika

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #589 on: December 07, 2018, 02:35:54 PM »
Maybe also because we're small Church or want to highlight that our autocephaly is from the EP and not the MP (we treat the tomos of the second one only as a kind of acceptation or confirmation).

Our sensitive friend Mike had said before that the POC occasionally got its chrism from Moscow.

Last if I recall correctly 30 years only from.the EP. I don't know about any case of taking it from the MP but ofc it may have happened.
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #590 on: December 07, 2018, 02:50:32 PM »
Patriarch Bartholomew has no right to convene church gatherings in Ukraine - the Holy Synod

http://news.church.ua/2018/12/07/patriarx-varfolomij-nemaje-zhodnix-prav-sklikati-v-ukrajini-cerkovni-zibrannya-svyashhennij-sinod/

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #591 on: December 07, 2018, 03:04:59 PM »
http://orthochristian.com/117750.html

I don't know if I agree with the title of the article:
CONSTANTINOPLE INTERNALLY DIVIDED ON PROCESS FOR ELECTING PRIMATE OF NEW UKRAINIAN CHURCH

It really appears that they mean the EP and the KP are divided.

Same thing now, no?
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #592 on: December 07, 2018, 03:13:09 PM »
http://orthochristian.com/117750.html

I don't know if I agree with the title of the article:
CONSTANTINOPLE INTERNALLY DIVIDED ON PROCESS FOR ELECTING PRIMATE OF NEW UKRAINIAN CHURCH

It really appears that they mean the EP and the KP are divided.

Same thing now, no?

The Ukrainian propaganda site RISU is also reporting this, though they try to sugarcoat it: https://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/orthodox_relations/73799/

Quote
“With regard to the status of the Patriarchate for the Ukrainian Church, we consider it to be an absolutely fair, historically grounded and pastorally justified status for our Local Church. After all, its number of faithful, clergy and bishops is one of the largest among the other Orthodox Churches, its history dates back to the sermon of the holy Apostle Andrew the First-Called, and its external conditions and internal qualities of existence are no inferior to those of the Bulgarian, Georgian, Russian, Romanian, Serbian Patriarchates,” said the Synodal decree.

The hierarchs of the UOC-KP remind that they spoke in favor of patriarchal authority on May 13, 2016, but for the good of the cause, they are ready to abandon this status for a certain time.

“Given all the circumstances, our Church is ready, if necessary, to postpone for some time the request to recognize it in a dignity of patriarchate, retaining that name within its boundaries and for domestic use,” the participants of the Synod of the UOC-KP said.

In other words, Constantinople can call us whatever it wants, but we'll continue calling ourselves a Patriarchate among ourselves and bugging them to recognize it. I believe the UGCC is in a similar situation vis-à-vis Rome.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 03:13:31 PM by Iconodule »
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Offline WPM

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #593 on: December 07, 2018, 03:33:38 PM »
http://orthochristian.com/117750.html

I don't know if I agree with the title of the article:
CONSTANTINOPLE INTERNALLY DIVIDED ON PROCESS FOR ELECTING PRIMATE OF NEW UKRAINIAN CHURCH

It really appears that they mean the EP and the KP are divided.

Article from the KP website that is referenced in the article above.
https://www.cerkva.info/church/zhurnal-zasidannia-sviashchennoho-synodu-6-hrudnia-2018-r

"Magazine of the meeting of the Holy Synod on December 6, 2018"

North America here
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #594 on: December 07, 2018, 06:07:43 PM »
Quote from: Mercurius1 link=topic=74707.msg1548812#msg1548812
[/quote


I really wonder if the other autocephelous Churches will remain silent or on the fence after this "unification council" is held next Saturday? If the EP is really out-stepping his bounds then I can't fathom why they would remain silent, and, especially why Athos has yet to say anything

Good point!  Silence reigns: must really upset the Russians.

Offline WPM

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #595 on: December 07, 2018, 06:36:32 PM »
I'm interested In Russian Orthodox history
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #596 on: December 07, 2018, 06:46:56 PM »
http://orthochristian.com/117750.html

I don't know if I agree with the title of the article:
CONSTANTINOPLE INTERNALLY DIVIDED ON PROCESS FOR ELECTING PRIMATE OF NEW UKRAINIAN CHURCH

It really appears that they mean the EP and the KP are divided.

Same thing now, no?

According to the EP yes. According to Philaret, I am not so sure. It seems that he and his spokesperson go out of their way to issue statements that are contrary to those coming from the EP.  For example, the EP recognizes Philaret as the former Metropolitan of Kiev yet Philaret says that he will be the Patriarch until the day he dies and that no one has the power to remove that grace from him.

So, I guess we will see who is driving the bus and who has the loyalty of the schismatic "bishops".
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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #597 on: December 07, 2018, 07:17:26 PM »
Quote from: Mercurius1 link=topic=74707.msg1548812#msg1548812
[/quote


I really wonder if the other autocephelous Churches will remain silent or on the fence after this "unification council" is held next Saturday? If the EP is really out-stepping his bounds then I can't fathom why they would remain silent, and, especially why Athos has yet to say anything

Good point!  Silence reigns: must really upset the Russians.

Unreflective comments like this make the Ukrainian cause look rather petty.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #598 on: December 07, 2018, 09:28:10 PM »
The craziness continues. The EP has turned Orthodoxy into a telenovela. All the work put forth to create the Episcopal Assemblies and lead to greater unity is dead. The divisions created by this affront will last for generations.

I wouldn’t say that; an apology, an about-face on Ukraine and reform in the EP to turn it from a culture characterized by apparenr self-entitlement to one built around a commitment to service, to helping the other autocephalous churches with their problems, following the scriptural model of servant-leadership could easily restore the prestige of the EP. 

I expect this scenarjo is desired many Constantinopolitan bishops such as HE Metropolitan Gregory of ACROD and HE Metropolitan Kallistos Ware of Diokleia, and the Finnish Orthodox bishops (even Metropolitan Ambrosianus, who otherwise frustrates me), as well as the Mount Athos community and other traditionalist monastic communities such as Elder Ephrem’s classis* of monasteries in North America and that of St. John of Patmos, would desire movement in this direction, because we are talking about gregarious bishops and monks on both ends of the Orthodox theological-political spectrum who are accustomed to benefitting from the prestige and centrality of the EP.  They are doubtless dismayed over the relative flop that was the 2016 Pan Orthodox synod, and even more dismayed at the profoundly negative reaction engendered by the events in the Ukraine, and worse, the strident and over the top actions of the defenders of those actions (for example, the Swedish Rue Daru parish which basically excommunicated 16 members who opposed the action in Ukraine pending a written recantation of those views, an action which I think many Orthodox Christians in the West or indeed in the Old Country would view as astonishingly heavy-handed, particularly given that this is not efen a dogmatic action).  I suspect many of these bishops are horrified that the EP just unilaterally attempted to shut down Rue Daru, without provocation; why should the EP have even done that?  Rue Daru was its vector for communicating with Russia, a vital link for PR purposes to help facilitate acceptance of their plans for Ukraine by segments of the Russian community that might have an otherwise less favorable opinion of the MP.

The EP has really inadvertantly shot itself in the foot on this; while I do feel Moscow should have turned the other cheek and not severed communion with the EP, thus far, most of the harm from this decision is impacting the EP, and it is extremely sad.  And its not just one bad decision (to ostensibly support Ukrainian autocephaly) but several.  This incident attaches itself to the inaction over Antioch’s complaints, the inaction over the Macedonian schism, the baseless opposition some traditionalists have to the EP’s ecumenical dialogue with Rome, the remarks of the Metropolitan of Bursa, the earlier creation of a schism in Estonia along nationalistic lines, the failure to secure universal attendance at Crete, the unsettling remarks of Sister Vassa and now Metropolitan Kallistos on human sexuality, the threat of revoking the autocephaly of the Czech-Slovak church, the bankruptcy of GOARCH, the claim of being able to revoke the autocephaly of any church, the refusal to recognise the autocephaly of the OCA, the bold declaration that the UOC-MP had been suppressed when it is in fact operational (and is likely to remain so barring any potential violations of the ECHR by Ukraine which could get Ukraine sued in the Council of Europe), and also the latest wrinkle which is the profoundly unwise strategic misstep of attempting to suppress the Russian Orthodox Archdiocese in Europe, the Rue Daru church, which in my opinion is the worst move they could have made.

Also, there are more shoes waiting to drop:

1. The EP has been extremely vague about when autocephaly will be granted to Ukraine, and who will be the Patriarch and so on, and this vagueness is perhaps due to the need to balance the political rivalry of the UOC-KP and the UAOC.  However, at some point it is going to start to look to Ukrainians like the EP just wants to to have the Ukrainian church as a semi-autonomous archdiocese under the jurisdiction of Constantinople, which would be a return to the ancient status quo ante, before the sack of Kiev by the Mongolian hordes and other barbarians and the rise of the Grand Duchy of Muscovy as the center of the culture of the Russian people, with Ukraine subsequently developing a slightly different cultural identity for various reasons as it became repopulated. 
2. If this perception becomes widespread, the Ukrainians could become angered and turn on the EP.
3. This would result, if the EP continues its current tactical doctrine, in some form of unwarranted, massive, pre-emptive retaliation; for example, the UOCNA could be at risk of dissolution.

These shoes are not the only ones with loose laces:
- If the situation continues to deteriorate, the resignation of a major and popular bishop and his acceptance into the MP could become possible.
- An autonomous church under the EP, fearing mistreatment such as what is happening to Rue Daru, might declare itself independent of the EP and either go under someone else’s omophorion or attempt autocephaly; whatever Rue Daru settles upon will likely be emulated.
- At some point, feeling their careers are in danger, some EP bishops might rebel against the synod and attempt to force a change in course.  Chaos will erupt if the disastrous scenario should emerge in which His All Holiness should repose tragically in the midst of this slow-motion shipwreck (which would cause him, quite possibly wrongfully, to take the blame for what might not really be his doing, just as Captain Smith’s good name is tainted by what happened aboard Titanic, as is the name of First Officer Murdoch and several other officers who acted honorably).

The end result could well be a situation wherein “The Young Phanariots” are forced, fearing for their survival, to attempt to seize control of the EP.   This raises the dire spectre of Turkish government interaction and, God forbid, violence against the Phanariots, and possible damage to and looting of St. George’s Cathedral, where the precious relics of the Three Holy Hierarchs are kept.

The irony in all of this is that many of the people put off by this are not people who would be inclined to jump to the defense of the MP.  Many people including myself were annoyed, for example, by Rolexgate, and many other people (not including myself) are uncomfortable with the relationship between the MP and the Russian state.  This part does not trouble me, but I understand why others would object.


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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #599 on: December 08, 2018, 02:02:08 AM »
the unsettling remarks of Sister Vassa

What does she have to do with the EP?

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #600 on: December 08, 2018, 03:45:02 AM »
I wouldn’t say that; an apology, an about-face on Ukraine and reform in the EP to turn it from a culture characterized by apparenr self-entitlement to one built around a commitment to service, to helping the other autocephalous churches with their problems, following the scriptural model of servant-leadership could easily restore the prestige of the EP. 

And where do you plan on finding this saint?

Offline StanislavU

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #601 on: December 08, 2018, 12:16:06 PM »

According to the EP yes. According to Philaret, I am not so sure. It seems that he and his spokesperson go out of their way to issue statements that are contrary to those coming from the EP.  For example, the EP recognizes Philaret as the former Metropolitan of Kiev yet Philaret says that he will be the Patriarch until the day he dies and that no one has the power to remove that grace from him.

So, I guess we will see who is driving the bus and who has the loyalty of the schismatic "bishops".
Vladyka Philaret is scheming. What else is new? That's what he is; if the new Ukrainian Church is in God's plan - and I believe it is - it won't matter. Whether he stays on as the Primate or not.
I think pro- and anti-Philaret people credit him with more importance than is due. He is a man in unique time and place in history, that's all. If not for a short-lived bout of church democracy in ROC around 1990, he'd be Patriarch of Moscow right now; probably would have struggled to keep Ukraine in the fold at some point.

Offline StanislavU

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #602 on: December 08, 2018, 12:19:29 PM »
Lord, have mercy.  Fr. Nectarios is a good priest.
I have no doubt he is.

It also seem clear that he has most of his information from Russian-leaning sources, and is completely out of touch. In the grand scheme of things, his actions matter maybe for ACROD, at most.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #603 on: December 08, 2018, 12:28:47 PM »
I wouldn’t say that; an apology, an about-face on Ukraine and reform in the EP to turn it from a culture characterized by apparenr self-entitlement to one built around a commitment to service, to helping the other autocephalous churches with their problems, following the scriptural model of servant-leadership could easily restore the prestige of the EP. 

And where do you plan on finding this saint?

It’s not my problem; I would hope conscientous members of the EP will in due course become alarmed, perhaps when the next inevitable rupture occurs, and attempt to seize the helm and course-correct.   Frankly, His All Holiness in the 1990s displayed all of the virtues I praise (which is a major reason why I doubt the Patriarch is personally the instigator of this, as opposed to perhaps being an elderly man who receives carefully controlled information prepared by his subordinates, who lacks the technical ability to directly use the Internet based on his age, and who thus being dependent on his subordinates for information, could easily be manipulated into a course of action he would not otherwise attempt).  We should pray to our Lord that the Patriarch be granted clarity of thought and vision so he can see the desperate situation, and make appropriate decisions.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #604 on: December 08, 2018, 12:29:43 PM »
Lord, have mercy.  Fr. Nectarios is a good priest.
I have no doubt he is.

It also seem clear that he has most of his information from Russian-leaning sources, and is completely out of touch. In the grand scheme of things, his actions matter maybe for ACROD, at most.

Agreed.  The EP isn't going to trip over himself over a few ACROD priests.
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Offline StanislavU

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #605 on: December 08, 2018, 12:37:23 PM »
It’s not my problem; I would hope conscientous members of the EP will in due course become alarmed, perhaps when the next inevitable rupture occurs, and attempt to seize the helm and course-correct.   Frankly, His All Holiness in the 1990s displayed all of the virtues I praise (which is a major reason why I doubt the Patriarch is personally the instigator of this, as opposed to perhaps being an elderly man who receives carefully controlled information prepared by his subordinates, who lacks the technical ability to directly use the Internet based on his age, and who thus being dependent on his subordinates for information, could easily be manipulated into a course of action he would not otherwise attempt).  We should pray to our Lord that the Patriarch be granted clarity of thought and vision so he can see the desperate situation, and make appropriate decisions.
What makes you think he doesn't? Suppose for a second that he has good reasons to act like he does, and have both better information and better analysis than you.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #606 on: December 08, 2018, 01:11:05 PM »
It’s not my problem; I would hope conscientous members of the EP will in due course become alarmed, perhaps when the next inevitable rupture occurs, and attempt to seize the helm and course-correct.   Frankly, His All Holiness in the 1990s displayed all of the virtues I praise (which is a major reason why I doubt the Patriarch is personally the instigator of this, as opposed to perhaps being an elderly man who receives carefully controlled information prepared by his subordinates, who lacks the technical ability to directly use the Internet based on his age, and who thus being dependent on his subordinates for information, could easily be manipulated into a course of action he would not otherwise attempt).  We should pray to our Lord that the Patriarch be granted clarity of thought and vision so he can see the desperate situation, and make appropriate decisions.
What makes you think he doesn't? Suppose for a second that he has good reasons to act like he does, and have both better information and better analysis than you.

Given the harm the recent actions of the EP have caused, with the EP in particular bearing the brunt of that harm, and the MP, previously not viewed with universal respect in Orthodoxy, having gained so much support outside of Ukraine, and within it among a certain segment of the population, and also given the complex political situation in Turkey in terms of Turkish relations with Russia and the US, its difficult to imagine a venerable bishop near the end of his career and indeed of advanced age contradicting his entire corpus of theological statements and endangering his very legacy as a celebrated Orthodox hierarch and a thought leader on contemporary issues like the environment, to dabble in a schism that his church until recently was not a party to.

I can’t rule out the involvement of Patriarch Bartholomew but I believe we owe him the benefit of the doubt.
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Offline StanislavU

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #607 on: December 08, 2018, 01:39:04 PM »


Given the harm the recent actions of the EP have caused, with the EP in particular bearing the brunt of that harm, and the MP, previously not viewed with universal respect in Orthodoxy, having gained so much support outside of Ukraine, and within it among a certain segment of the population, and also given the complex political situation in Turkey in terms of Turkish relations with Russia and the US, its difficult to imagine a venerable bishop near the end of his career and indeed of advanced age contradicting his entire corpus of theological statements and endangering his very legacy as a celebrated Orthodox hierarch and a thought leader on contemporary issues like the environment, to dabble in a schism that his church until recently was not a party to.

Yeah, who cares about the rest of Ukraine's population anyway? They're part of Ruskii Mir right?




This is why all this "tremendous" support to MP outside of Russia means squat within it. The day Tomos will be granted will be absolutely historic. In 50 years, all involved (including pres. Poroshenko and Philaret, no matter how unpleasand personally both are) will be viewed very favourably by history. You'll see.

Offline cossack 316

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #608 on: December 08, 2018, 01:58:17 PM »

3. This would result, if the EP continues its current tactical doctrine, in some form of unwarranted, massive, pre-emptive retaliation; for example, the UOCNA could be at risk of dissolution.

No way this happens, Archbishop Daniel of Pamphillon of the UOCEP in NA loves being a Greek bishop as does Antony of Ieropolis.

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #609 on: December 08, 2018, 02:19:39 PM »
They are doubtless dismayed over the relative flop that was the 2016 Pan Orthodox synod, and even more dismayed at the profoundly negative reaction engendered by the events in the Ukraine, and worse, the strident and over the top actions of the defenders of those actions (for example, the Swedish Rue Daru parish which basically excommunicated 16 members who opposed the action in Ukraine pending a written recantation of those views, an action which I think many Orthodox Christians in the West or indeed in the Old Country would view as astonishingly heavy-handed, particularly given that this is not efen a dogmatic action). 

Now apply this logic to MP anathemacising Philaret. Or denying last rites to his flock. Or, indeed, denying funeral rites to fallen Ukrainian service members on account of them being sinful for participating in "fraticidal war". Or king-worshipping Putin (according to Patr. Kirill, Putin is "a gift from God"). Or taking credit for and heavily promoting the "Russian World" doctrine which is a fig leaf for current Russian imperialistic shenanigans. Or having "Ukrainian Orthodox Church" clerics publicly blessing Russian naval weapons in Crimea. I'd say it's both astonishing and heavy-handed.

I seriously can't comprehend why some seemingly impartial people pretend that MPs (Removed - Mor) doesn't stink. EP saw a chance to clean up a mess of mostly Moscow's (Kremlin and MP, if making a distinction even means anything) and took it. Mnohaya lita!

Edited to remove profanity.  Mor Ephrem, section moderator.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 10:46:11 PM by Mor Ephrem »

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #610 on: December 08, 2018, 10:00:18 PM »


Given the harm the recent actions of the EP have caused, with the EP in particular bearing the brunt of that harm, and the MP, previously not viewed with universal respect in Orthodoxy, having gained so much support outside of Ukraine, and within it among a certain segment of the population, and also given the complex political situation in Turkey in terms of Turkish relations with Russia and the US, its difficult to imagine a venerable bishop near the end of his career and indeed of advanced age contradicting his entire corpus of theological statements and endangering his very legacy as a celebrated Orthodox hierarch and a thought leader on contemporary issues like the environment, to dabble in a schism that his church until recently was not a party to.

Yeah, who cares about the rest of Ukraine's population anyway? They're part of Ruskii Mir right?




This is why all this "tremendous" support to MP outside of Russia means squat within it. The day Tomos will be granted will be absolutely historic. In 50 years, all involved (including pres. Poroshenko and Philaret, no matter how unpleasand personally both are) will be viewed very favourably by history. You'll see.

The Tomos of autocephaly remains elusive.  What is more, the EP more than any other jurisdiction historically denounced ethnophyletism.  Thus, the idea of one church for one segment of the Ukrainian population and another church for another (those who presently attend the UOC-MP) is, by the EP’s own standards, abhorrent.

You also cite the elusive Tomos of Autocephaly.  If such a Tomos has been granted in 50 years by the EP, which it is becoming obvious desires Ukraine as an “autonomous” church in part to correct revenue shortfalls and to increase its political power, that would be something worth celebrating, but frankly, I think the KP and UAOC checked into the wrong hotel, so to speak, if autocephaly rather than winding up under EP bishops who aren’t even Ukrainian or Russian was the objective.

They are doubtless dismayed over the relative flop that was the 2016 Pan Orthodox synod, and even more dismayed at the profoundly negative reaction engendered by the events in the Ukraine, and worse, the strident and over the top actions of the defenders of those actions (for example, the Swedish Rue Daru parish which basically excommunicated 16 members who opposed the action in Ukraine pending a written recantation of those views, an action which I think many Orthodox Christians in the West or indeed in the Old Country would view as astonishingly heavy-handed, particularly given that this is not efen a dogmatic action). 

Now apply this logic to MP anathemacising Philaret. Or denying last rites to his flock. Or, indeed, denying funeral rites to fallen Ukrainian service members on account of them being sinful for participating in "fraticidal war". Or king-worshipping Putin (according to Patr. Kirill, Putin is "a gift from God"). Or taking credit for and heavily promoting the "Russian World" doctrine which is a fig leaf for current Russian imperialistic shenanigans. Or having "Ukrainian Orthodox Church" clerics publicly blessing Russian naval weapons in Crimea. I'd say it's both astonishing and heavy-handed.

I have heard reports of abuses by the UOC-MP and if true, these reports represent serious failures on their part, but I would also propose that people who have committed to the UOC-KP ought to expect a lack of pastoral care from all but the least petty and most magnanimous of the UOC-MP clergy.  This is, sadly, the nature of a schism.  To the extent the UOC-MP and UOC-KP/UAOC appear to have taken sides in a military conflict, if true, if the one church is blessing Ukrainian soldiers and weapons, and the other Russian soldiers and weapons, that would be serious misconduct.  I would also argue that the UOC-MP ought to stay out of Crimea except to provide pastoral care to the Ukrainian speaking population, since the presence of UOC-MP clergy in Crimea, where the UOC-KP and in all probability the Ukrainian Catholics would have difficulty gainig admission could have the effect of resulting in an undesirable politicization which would interfere with pastoral operations.

So to the extent any of the above issues you cite have occurred, they are abuses, but they do not negate the abuses of Constantinople, nor do they do anything to ease my suspicions Constantinople is acting in bad faith.

My own view expressed elsewhere is that the MP ought to have tried to pre-empt this by granting autocephaly to the UOC-MP, and indeed pushing for a reconciliation with the UOC-KP, but I suspect now that we are on this course, the EP will exploit factional infighting between the UAOC and the UOC-KP to continue to delay granting autocephaly, which they are already doing, by the way.  Lamentably, I think autocephaly is probably neccessary due to the alienation caused by the political situation, but I have deep concerns about whether the process currently occurring is in good faith.   As of right now, it seems like the UOC-KP and UAOC have actually lost autocephally and gained nothing, since most of the Eastern Orthodox churches still regard them as uncanonical and in a state of schism.

Meanwhile, you can’t justify the abuses of the Rue Daru congregation.  Two wrongs do not make a right, and it seems to me like your post is trying to do that.
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Offline StanislavU

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #611 on: December 08, 2018, 10:49:29 PM »
The Tomos of autocephaly remains elusive.  What is more, the EP more than any other jurisdiction historically denounced ethnophyletism.  Thus, the idea of one church for one segment of the Ukrainian population and another church for another (those who presently attend the UOC-MP) is, by the EP’s own standards, abhorrent.

You also cite the elusive Tomos of Autocephaly.  If such a Tomos has been granted in 50 years by the EP, which it is becoming obvious desires Ukraine as an “autonomous” church in part to correct revenue shortfalls and to increase its political power, that would be something worth celebrating, but frankly, I think the KP and UAOC checked into the wrong hotel, so to speak, if autocephaly rather than winding up under EP bishops who aren’t even Ukrainian or Russian was the objective.
This is getting old. EP called a Synod to form the new Church and elect a Primate in literally, one week's time. I suggest we wait until then and lay away the biased propaganda about "elusive Tomos" until then.

About "ethnophyletism". It would be a valid criticism if ROC were any less ethnocentric than anything Ukrainian. Moreover, the ethnicity it is very clearly associated with (Russian) and the state it is in thrall of (again, Russia) is Ukraine's historic oppressor that goes through the empire-building, violent, revisionist recentiment phase, a la 1930ies Germany (but with nuclear weapons). If two competing jurisdictions are a concern, well, the more reasons for ROC to pack their luggage and leave an independent country to it's proper particular Church, no?

Finally, even if ending up under Greek EP bishops was a concern (and it's not), there is actually an obvious upside in being ruled by someone who doesn't have thumbs in Ukraine's soup already. Many Ukrainians will feel much better attending a Church that doesn't have Bishops, and priests who profess that Ukrainian language doesn't exist and anyone speaking it is a traitor to the Great and Glorious Russian Nation. I'm a born and bred Russophone, but frankly would choose a Syriac parish over Russian one, simply because a Russian parish is likely to be filled with fine folks who regularly consume Russian media. And Russian media is full of most disgusting slander against my kind. Scroll up and see "Nazi junta" nonsence for yourself.


I have heard reports of abuses by the UOC-MP and if true, these reports represent serious failures on their part, but I would also propose that people who have committed to the UOC-KP ought to expect a lack of pastoral care from all but the least petty and most magnanimous of the UOC-MP clergy.  This is, sadly, the nature of a schism.  To the extent the UOC-MP and UOC-KP/UAOC appear to have taken sides in a military conflict, if true, if the one church is blessing Ukrainian soldiers and weapons, and the other Russian soldiers and weapons, that would be serious misconduct.  I would also argue that the UOC-MP ought to stay out of Crimea except to provide pastoral care to the Ukrainian speaking population, since the presence of UOC-MP clergy in Crimea, where the UOC-KP and in all probability the Ukrainian Catholics would have difficulty gainig admission could have the effect of resulting in an undesirable politicization which would interfere with pastoral operations.
This is, sadly, the nature of having your Church ruled from the aggressor nation, and "symphonising" to alarming levels with Putin's lethal cleptocracy. UOC-MP is dominant in Crimea; where would it go? Even on ROC map Crimea is UOC's territory.

My own view expressed elsewhere is that the MP ought to have tried to pre-empt this by granting autocephaly to the UOC-MP, and indeed pushing for a reconciliation with the UOC-KP, but I suspect now that we are on this course, the EP will exploit factional infighting between the UAOC and the UOC-KP to continue to delay granting autocephaly, which they are already doing, by the way.  Lamentably, I think autocephaly is probably neccessary due to the alienation caused by the political situation, but I have deep concerns about whether the process currently occurring is in good faith.   As of right now, it seems like the UOC-KP and UAOC have actually lost autocephally and gained nothing, since most of the Eastern Orthodox churches still regard them as uncanonical and in a state of schism.
...and I expressed the view that, while this would solve most of the problems, Moscow is incapable of letting Ukraine go. Even and especially in this highly symbolic way. If they could they would do it when Met. Volodymyr (who shared this opinion) was alive.


Meanwhile, you can’t justify the abuses of the Rue Daru congregation.  Two wrongs do not make a right, and it seems to me like your post is trying to do that.
Don't know enough to have an opinion on that episode.

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #612 on: December 08, 2018, 10:54:39 PM »
All,

Please review the forum rules for each section *before* you post in it.  Several people are in violation of various rules in this thread, and such violations are occurring elsewhere.  I have corrected one such member’s error in this thread without imposing any penalty.  If rules, including but not limited to those concerning foul language and use of proper clerical titles, are violated, the guilty will be dealt with.

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #613 on: December 08, 2018, 11:12:34 PM »

3. This would result, if the EP continues its current tactical doctrine, in some form of unwarranted, massive, pre-emptive retaliation; for example, the UOCNA could be at risk of dissolution.

No way this happens, Archbishop Daniel of Pamphillon of the UOCEP in NA loves being a Greek bishop as does Antony of Ieropolis.
then let them go to Greece.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #614 on: December 08, 2018, 11:14:55 PM »


Given the harm the recent actions of the EP have caused, with the EP in particular bearing the brunt of that harm, and the MP, previously not viewed with universal respect in Orthodoxy, having gained so much support outside of Ukraine, and within it among a certain segment of the population, and also given the complex political situation in Turkey in terms of Turkish relations with Russia and the US, its difficult to imagine a venerable bishop near the end of his career and indeed of advanced age contradicting his entire corpus of theological statements and endangering his very legacy as a celebrated Orthodox hierarch and a thought leader on contemporary issues like the environment, to dabble in a schism that his church until recently was not a party to.

Yeah, who cares about the rest of Ukraine's population anyway? They're part of Ruskii Mir right?




This is why all this "tremendous" support to MP outside of Russia means squat within it. The day Tomos will be granted will be absolutely historic. In 50 years, all involved (including pres. Poroshenko and Philaret, no matter how unpleasand personally both are) will be viewed very favourably by history. You'll see.
Yes, we'll see.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #615 on: December 08, 2018, 11:17:57 PM »
It’s not my problem; I would hope conscientous members of the EP will in due course become alarmed, perhaps when the next inevitable rupture occurs, and attempt to seize the helm and course-correct.   Frankly, His All Holiness in the 1990s displayed all of the virtues I praise (which is a major reason why I doubt the Patriarch is personally the instigator of this, as opposed to perhaps being an elderly man who receives carefully controlled information prepared by his subordinates, who lacks the technical ability to directly use the Internet based on his age, and who thus being dependent on his subordinates for information, could easily be manipulated into a course of action he would not otherwise attempt).  We should pray to our Lord that the Patriarch be granted clarity of thought and vision so he can see the desperate situation, and make appropriate decisions.
What makes you think he doesn't? Suppose for a second that he has good reasons to act like he does, and have both better information and better analysis than you.
LOL.
Yes, I'm sure your bias tells you so.
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Offline WPM

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #616 on: December 08, 2018, 11:18:33 PM »


Given the harm the recent actions of the EP have caused, with the EP in particular bearing the brunt of that harm, and the MP, previously not viewed with universal respect in Orthodoxy, having gained so much support outside of Ukraine, and within it among a certain segment of the population, and also given the complex political situation in Turkey in terms of Turkish relations with Russia and the US, its difficult to imagine a venerable bishop near the end of his career and indeed of advanced age contradicting his entire corpus of theological statements and endangering his very legacy as a celebrated Orthodox hierarch and a thought leader on contemporary issues like the environment, to dabble in a schism that his church until recently was not a party to.

Yeah, who cares about the rest of Ukraine's population anyway? They're part of Ruskii Mir right?




This is why all this "tremendous" support to MP outside of Russia means squat within it. The day Tomos will be granted will be absolutely historic. In 50 years, all involved (including pres. Poroshenko and Philaret, no matter how unpleasand personally both are) will be viewed very favourably by history. You'll see.

The Tomos of autocephaly remains elusive.  What is more, the EP more than any other jurisdiction historically denounced ethnophyletism.  Thus, the idea of one church for one segment of the Ukrainian population and another church for another (those who presently attend the UOC-MP) is, by the EP’s own standards, abhorrent.

You also cite the elusive Tomos of Autocephaly.  If such a Tomos has been granted in 50 years by the EP, which it is becoming obvious desires Ukraine as an “autonomous” church in part to correct revenue shortfalls and to increase its political power, that would be something worth celebrating, but frankly, I think the KP and UAOC checked into the wrong hotel, so to speak, if autocephaly rather than winding up under EP bishops who aren’t even Ukrainian or Russian was the objective.

They are doubtless dismayed over the relative flop that was the 2016 Pan Orthodox synod, and even more dismayed at the profoundly negative reaction engendered by the events in the Ukraine, and worse, the strident and over the top actions of the defenders of those actions (for example, the Swedish Rue Daru parish which basically excommunicated 16 members who opposed the action in Ukraine pending a written recantation of those views, an action which I think many Orthodox Christians in the West or indeed in the Old Country would view as astonishingly heavy-handed, particularly given that this is not efen a dogmatic action). 

Now apply this logic to MP anathemacising Philaret. Or denying last rites to his flock. Or, indeed, denying funeral rites to fallen Ukrainian service members on account of them being sinful for participating in "fraticidal war". Or king-worshipping Putin (according to Patr. Kirill, Putin is "a gift from God"). Or taking credit for and heavily promoting the "Russian World" doctrine which is a fig leaf for current Russian imperialistic shenanigans. Or having "Ukrainian Orthodox Church" clerics publicly blessing Russian naval weapons in Crimea. I'd say it's both astonishing and heavy-handed.

I have heard reports of abuses by the UOC-MP and if true, these reports represent serious failures on their part, but I would also propose that people who have committed to the UOC-KP ought to expect a lack of pastoral care from all but the least petty and most magnanimous of the UOC-MP clergy.  This is, sadly, the nature of a schism.  To the extent the UOC-MP and UOC-KP/UAOC appear to have taken sides in a military conflict, if true, if the one church is blessing Ukrainian soldiers and weapons, and the other Russian soldiers and weapons, that would be serious misconduct.  I would also argue that the UOC-MP ought to stay out of Crimea except to provide pastoral care to the Ukrainian speaking population, since the presence of UOC-MP clergy in Crimea, where the UOC-KP and in all probability the Ukrainian Catholics would have difficulty gainig admission could have the effect of resulting in an undesirable politicization which would interfere with pastoral operations.

So to the extent any of the above issues you cite have occurred, they are abuses, but they do not negate the abuses of Constantinople, nor do they do anything to ease my suspicions Constantinople is acting in bad faith.

My own view expressed elsewhere is that the MP ought to have tried to pre-empt this by granting autocephaly to the UOC-MP, and indeed pushing for a reconciliation with the UOC-KP, but I suspect now that we are on this course, the EP will exploit factional infighting between the UAOC and the UOC-KP to continue to delay granting autocephaly, which they are already doing, by the way.  Lamentably, I think autocephaly is probably neccessary due to the alienation caused by the political situation, but I have deep concerns about whether the process currently occurring is in good faith.   As of right now, it seems like the UOC-KP and UAOC have actually lost autocephally and gained nothing, since most of the Eastern Orthodox churches still regard them as uncanonical and in a state of schism.

Meanwhile, you can’t justify the abuses of the Rue Daru congregation.  Two wrongs do not make a right, and it seems to me like your post is trying to do that.

Are you trying to make me crazy or what?
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Offline StanislavU

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #617 on: December 08, 2018, 11:22:58 PM »

3. This would result, if the EP continues its current tactical doctrine, in some form of unwarranted, massive, pre-emptive retaliation; for example, the UOCNA could be at risk of dissolution.

No way this happens, Archbishop Daniel of Pamphillon of the UOCEP in NA loves being a Greek bishop as does Antony of Ieropolis.
then let them go to Greece.
By extension, Russian bishops should go to?

Offline WPM

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #618 on: December 08, 2018, 11:48:06 PM »
That takes years.
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A restatement of some teachings in the Augsburg Confession over which Lutherans had become divided. The Solid Declaration is the unabridged version. The Epitome is an abridged version intended for congregations to study. Over 8,100 pastors and theologians signed it, as well as over 50 government leaders.



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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #619 on: December 09, 2018, 09:51:29 AM »

3. This would result, if the EP continues its current tactical doctrine, in some form of unwarranted, massive, pre-emptive retaliation; for example, the UOCNA could be at risk of dissolution.

No way this happens, Archbishop Daniel of Pamphillon of the UOCEP in NA loves being a Greek bishop as does Antony of Ieropolis.
then let them go to Greece.
By extension, Russian bishops should go to?
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Offline StanislavU

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #620 on: December 09, 2018, 01:04:57 PM »

3. This would result, if the EP continues its current tactical doctrine, in some form of unwarranted, massive, pre-emptive retaliation; for example, the UOCNA could be at risk of dissolution.

No way this happens, Archbishop Daniel of Pamphillon of the UOCEP in NA loves being a Greek bishop as does Antony of Ieropolis.
then let them go to Greece.
By extension, Russian bishops should go to?
Ukraine is Russia. Ukrainians are little Russians.
Report sent.



...and yes, this attitude is why Ukraine, and Ukrainian Church, need to sever formal ties with anything Russian. Racist "little Russian" theory is a de-facto official position of ROC as well as the famous 86% of Russians from the very top all the way down.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #621 on: December 09, 2018, 07:31:53 PM »

3. This would result, if the EP continues its current tactical doctrine, in some form of unwarranted, massive, pre-emptive retaliation; for example, the UOCNA could be at risk of dissolution.

No way this happens, Archbishop Daniel of Pamphillon of the UOCEP in NA loves being a Greek bishop as does Antony of Ieropolis.
then let them go to Greece.
By extension, Russian bishops should go to?
Ukraine is Russia. Ukrainians are little Russians.
Report sent.



...and yes, this attitude is why Ukraine, and Ukrainian Church, need to sever formal ties with anything Russian. Racist "little Russian" theory is a de-facto official position of ROC as well as the famous 86% of Russians from the very top all the way down.

I think you make a fair point and I part ways with ICXCNIKA when it comes to the Russian chauvinist rhetoric. The Putin government is a bunch of creeps and the Moscow Patriarchate has stained itself by being its constant cheerleaders. If Putin falls- and I think it’s more possible than people think- it’s going to be quite a sorry sight to see how the MP tries to sort out who’s next and bows and scrapes accordingly.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #622 on: December 09, 2018, 10:48:47 PM »


Given the harm the recent actions of the EP have caused, with the EP in particular bearing the brunt of that harm, and the MP, previously not viewed with universal respect in Orthodoxy, having gained so much support outside of Ukraine, and within it among a certain segment of the population, and also given the complex political situation in Turkey in terms of Turkish relations with Russia and the US, its difficult to imagine a venerable bishop near the end of his career and indeed of advanced age contradicting his entire corpus of theological statements and endangering his very legacy as a celebrated Orthodox hierarch and a thought leader on contemporary issues like the environment, to dabble in a schism that his church until recently was not a party to.

Yeah, who cares about the rest of Ukraine's population anyway? They're part of Ruskii Mir right?




This is why all this "tremendous" support to MP outside of Russia means squat within it. The day Tomos will be granted will be absolutely historic. In 50 years, all involved (including pres. Poroshenko and Philaret, no matter how unpleasand personally both are) will be viewed very favourably by history. You'll see.

The Tomos of autocephaly remains elusive.  What is more, the EP more than any other jurisdiction historically denounced ethnophyletism.  Thus, the idea of one church for one segment of the Ukrainian population and another church for another (those who presently attend the UOC-MP) is, by the EP’s own standards, abhorrent.

You also cite the elusive Tomos of Autocephaly.  If such a Tomos has been granted in 50 years by the EP, which it is becoming obvious desires Ukraine as an “autonomous” church in part to correct revenue shortfalls and to increase its political power, that would be something worth celebrating, but frankly, I think the KP and UAOC checked into the wrong hotel, so to speak, if autocephaly rather than winding up under EP bishops who aren’t even Ukrainian or Russian was the objective.

They are doubtless dismayed over the relative flop that was the 2016 Pan Orthodox synod, and even more dismayed at the profoundly negative reaction engendered by the events in the Ukraine, and worse, the strident and over the top actions of the defenders of those actions (for example, the Swedish Rue Daru parish which basically excommunicated 16 members who opposed the action in Ukraine pending a written recantation of those views, an action which I think many Orthodox Christians in the West or indeed in the Old Country would view as astonishingly heavy-handed, particularly given that this is not efen a dogmatic action). 

Now apply this logic to MP anathemacising Philaret. Or denying last rites to his flock. Or, indeed, denying funeral rites to fallen Ukrainian service members on account of them being sinful for participating in "fraticidal war". Or king-worshipping Putin (according to Patr. Kirill, Putin is "a gift from God"). Or taking credit for and heavily promoting the "Russian World" doctrine which is a fig leaf for current Russian imperialistic shenanigans. Or having "Ukrainian Orthodox Church" clerics publicly blessing Russian naval weapons in Crimea. I'd say it's both astonishing and heavy-handed.

I have heard reports of abuses by the UOC-MP and if true, these reports represent serious failures on their part, but I would also propose that people who have committed to the UOC-KP ought to expect a lack of pastoral care from all but the least petty and most magnanimous of the UOC-MP clergy.  This is, sadly, the nature of a schism.  To the extent the UOC-MP and UOC-KP/UAOC appear to have taken sides in a military conflict, if true, if the one church is blessing Ukrainian soldiers and weapons, and the other Russian soldiers and weapons, that would be serious misconduct.  I would also argue that the UOC-MP ought to stay out of Crimea except to provide pastoral care to the Ukrainian speaking population, since the presence of UOC-MP clergy in Crimea, where the UOC-KP and in all probability the Ukrainian Catholics would have difficulty gainig admission could have the effect of resulting in an undesirable politicization which would interfere with pastoral operations.

So to the extent any of the above issues you cite have occurred, they are abuses, but they do not negate the abuses of Constantinople, nor do they do anything to ease my suspicions Constantinople is acting in bad faith.

My own view expressed elsewhere is that the MP ought to have tried to pre-empt this by granting autocephaly to the UOC-MP, and indeed pushing for a reconciliation with the UOC-KP, but I suspect now that we are on this course, the EP will exploit factional infighting between the UAOC and the UOC-KP to continue to delay granting autocephaly, which they are already doing, by the way.  Lamentably, I think autocephaly is probably neccessary due to the alienation caused by the political situation, but I have deep concerns about whether the process currently occurring is in good faith.   As of right now, it seems like the UOC-KP and UAOC have actually lost autocephally and gained nothing, since most of the Eastern Orthodox churches still regard them as uncanonical and in a state of schism.

Meanwhile, you can’t justify the abuses of the Rue Daru congregation.  Two wrongs do not make a right, and it seems to me like your post is trying to do that.

Are you trying to make me crazy or what?

Umm, no?
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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Offline hecma925

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #623 on: December 09, 2018, 10:49:37 PM »


Given the harm the recent actions of the EP have caused, with the EP in particular bearing the brunt of that harm, and the MP, previously not viewed with universal respect in Orthodoxy, having gained so much support outside of Ukraine, and within it among a certain segment of the population, and also given the complex political situation in Turkey in terms of Turkish relations with Russia and the US, its difficult to imagine a venerable bishop near the end of his career and indeed of advanced age contradicting his entire corpus of theological statements and endangering his very legacy as a celebrated Orthodox hierarch and a thought leader on contemporary issues like the environment, to dabble in a schism that his church until recently was not a party to.

Yeah, who cares about the rest of Ukraine's population anyway? They're part of Ruskii Mir right?




This is why all this "tremendous" support to MP outside of Russia means squat within it. The day Tomos will be granted will be absolutely historic. In 50 years, all involved (including pres. Poroshenko and Philaret, no matter how unpleasand personally both are) will be viewed very favourably by history. You'll see.

The Tomos of autocephaly remains elusive.  What is more, the EP more than any other jurisdiction historically denounced ethnophyletism.  Thus, the idea of one church for one segment of the Ukrainian population and another church for another (those who presently attend the UOC-MP) is, by the EP’s own standards, abhorrent.

You also cite the elusive Tomos of Autocephaly.  If such a Tomos has been granted in 50 years by the EP, which it is becoming obvious desires Ukraine as an “autonomous” church in part to correct revenue shortfalls and to increase its political power, that would be something worth celebrating, but frankly, I think the KP and UAOC checked into the wrong hotel, so to speak, if autocephaly rather than winding up under EP bishops who aren’t even Ukrainian or Russian was the objective.

They are doubtless dismayed over the relative flop that was the 2016 Pan Orthodox synod, and even more dismayed at the profoundly negative reaction engendered by the events in the Ukraine, and worse, the strident and over the top actions of the defenders of those actions (for example, the Swedish Rue Daru parish which basically excommunicated 16 members who opposed the action in Ukraine pending a written recantation of those views, an action which I think many Orthodox Christians in the West or indeed in the Old Country would view as astonishingly heavy-handed, particularly given that this is not efen a dogmatic action). 

Now apply this logic to MP anathemacising Philaret. Or denying last rites to his flock. Or, indeed, denying funeral rites to fallen Ukrainian service members on account of them being sinful for participating in "fraticidal war". Or king-worshipping Putin (according to Patr. Kirill, Putin is "a gift from God"). Or taking credit for and heavily promoting the "Russian World" doctrine which is a fig leaf for current Russian imperialistic shenanigans. Or having "Ukrainian Orthodox Church" clerics publicly blessing Russian naval weapons in Crimea. I'd say it's both astonishing and heavy-handed.

I have heard reports of abuses by the UOC-MP and if true, these reports represent serious failures on their part, but I would also propose that people who have committed to the UOC-KP ought to expect a lack of pastoral care from all but the least petty and most magnanimous of the UOC-MP clergy.  This is, sadly, the nature of a schism.  To the extent the UOC-MP and UOC-KP/UAOC appear to have taken sides in a military conflict, if true, if the one church is blessing Ukrainian soldiers and weapons, and the other Russian soldiers and weapons, that would be serious misconduct.  I would also argue that the UOC-MP ought to stay out of Crimea except to provide pastoral care to the Ukrainian speaking population, since the presence of UOC-MP clergy in Crimea, where the UOC-KP and in all probability the Ukrainian Catholics would have difficulty gainig admission could have the effect of resulting in an undesirable politicization which would interfere with pastoral operations.

So to the extent any of the above issues you cite have occurred, they are abuses, but they do not negate the abuses of Constantinople, nor do they do anything to ease my suspicions Constantinople is acting in bad faith.

My own view expressed elsewhere is that the MP ought to have tried to pre-empt this by granting autocephaly to the UOC-MP, and indeed pushing for a reconciliation with the UOC-KP, but I suspect now that we are on this course, the EP will exploit factional infighting between the UAOC and the UOC-KP to continue to delay granting autocephaly, which they are already doing, by the way.  Lamentably, I think autocephaly is probably neccessary due to the alienation caused by the political situation, but I have deep concerns about whether the process currently occurring is in good faith.   As of right now, it seems like the UOC-KP and UAOC have actually lost autocephally and gained nothing, since most of the Eastern Orthodox churches still regard them as uncanonical and in a state of schism.

Meanwhile, you can’t justify the abuses of the Rue Daru congregation.  Two wrongs do not make a right, and it seems to me like your post is trying to do that.

Are you trying to make me crazy or what?

Umm, no?

Yes, you are and you love it.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #624 on: December 09, 2018, 10:51:53 PM »


Given the harm the recent actions of the EP have caused, with the EP in particular bearing the brunt of that harm, and the MP, previously not viewed with universal respect in Orthodoxy, having gained so much support outside of Ukraine, and within it among a certain segment of the population, and also given the complex political situation in Turkey in terms of Turkish relations with Russia and the US, its difficult to imagine a venerable bishop near the end of his career and indeed of advanced age contradicting his entire corpus of theological statements and endangering his very legacy as a celebrated Orthodox hierarch and a thought leader on contemporary issues like the environment, to dabble in a schism that his church until recently was not a party to.

Yeah, who cares about the rest of Ukraine's population anyway? They're part of Ruskii Mir right?




This is why all this "tremendous" support to MP outside of Russia means squat within it. The day Tomos will be granted will be absolutely historic. In 50 years, all involved (including pres. Poroshenko and Philaret, no matter how unpleasand personally both are) will be viewed very favourably by history. You'll see.

The Tomos of autocephaly remains elusive.  What is more, the EP more than any other jurisdiction historically denounced ethnophyletism.  Thus, the idea of one church for one segment of the Ukrainian population and another church for another (those who presently attend the UOC-MP) is, by the EP’s own standards, abhorrent.

You also cite the elusive Tomos of Autocephaly.  If such a Tomos has been granted in 50 years by the EP, which it is becoming obvious desires Ukraine as an “autonomous” church in part to correct revenue shortfalls and to increase its political power, that would be something worth celebrating, but frankly, I think the KP and UAOC checked into the wrong hotel, so to speak, if autocephaly rather than winding up under EP bishops who aren’t even Ukrainian or Russian was the objective.

They are doubtless dismayed over the relative flop that was the 2016 Pan Orthodox synod, and even more dismayed at the profoundly negative reaction engendered by the events in the Ukraine, and worse, the strident and over the top actions of the defenders of those actions (for example, the Swedish Rue Daru parish which basically excommunicated 16 members who opposed the action in Ukraine pending a written recantation of those views, an action which I think many Orthodox Christians in the West or indeed in the Old Country would view as astonishingly heavy-handed, particularly given that this is not efen a dogmatic action). 

Now apply this logic to MP anathemacising Philaret. Or denying last rites to his flock. Or, indeed, denying funeral rites to fallen Ukrainian service members on account of them being sinful for participating in "fraticidal war". Or king-worshipping Putin (according to Patr. Kirill, Putin is "a gift from God"). Or taking credit for and heavily promoting the "Russian World" doctrine which is a fig leaf for current Russian imperialistic shenanigans. Or having "Ukrainian Orthodox Church" clerics publicly blessing Russian naval weapons in Crimea. I'd say it's both astonishing and heavy-handed.

I have heard reports of abuses by the UOC-MP and if true, these reports represent serious failures on their part, but I would also propose that people who have committed to the UOC-KP ought to expect a lack of pastoral care from all but the least petty and most magnanimous of the UOC-MP clergy.  This is, sadly, the nature of a schism.  To the extent the UOC-MP and UOC-KP/UAOC appear to have taken sides in a military conflict, if true, if the one church is blessing Ukrainian soldiers and weapons, and the other Russian soldiers and weapons, that would be serious misconduct.  I would also argue that the UOC-MP ought to stay out of Crimea except to provide pastoral care to the Ukrainian speaking population, since the presence of UOC-MP clergy in Crimea, where the UOC-KP and in all probability the Ukrainian Catholics would have difficulty gainig admission could have the effect of resulting in an undesirable politicization which would interfere with pastoral operations.

So to the extent any of the above issues you cite have occurred, they are abuses, but they do not negate the abuses of Constantinople, nor do they do anything to ease my suspicions Constantinople is acting in bad faith.

My own view expressed elsewhere is that the MP ought to have tried to pre-empt this by granting autocephaly to the UOC-MP, and indeed pushing for a reconciliation with the UOC-KP, but I suspect now that we are on this course, the EP will exploit factional infighting between the UAOC and the UOC-KP to continue to delay granting autocephaly, which they are already doing, by the way.  Lamentably, I think autocephaly is probably neccessary due to the alienation caused by the political situation, but I have deep concerns about whether the process currently occurring is in good faith.   As of right now, it seems like the UOC-KP and UAOC have actually lost autocephally and gained nothing, since most of the Eastern Orthodox churches still regard them as uncanonical and in a state of schism.

Meanwhile, you can’t justify the abuses of the Rue Daru congregation.  Two wrongs do not make a right, and it seems to me like your post is trying to do that.

Are you trying to make me crazy or what?

Umm, no?

Yes, you are and you love it.

I prefer as a general rule not to derange members of the forum.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 10:53:01 PM by Alpha60 »
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline hecma925

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #625 on: December 09, 2018, 11:42:02 PM »


Given the harm the recent actions of the EP have caused, with the EP in particular bearing the brunt of that harm, and the MP, previously not viewed with universal respect in Orthodoxy, having gained so much support outside of Ukraine, and within it among a certain segment of the population, and also given the complex political situation in Turkey in terms of Turkish relations with Russia and the US, its difficult to imagine a venerable bishop near the end of his career and indeed of advanced age contradicting his entire corpus of theological statements and endangering his very legacy as a celebrated Orthodox hierarch and a thought leader on contemporary issues like the environment, to dabble in a schism that his church until recently was not a party to.

Yeah, who cares about the rest of Ukraine's population anyway? They're part of Ruskii Mir right?




This is why all this "tremendous" support to MP outside of Russia means squat within it. The day Tomos will be granted will be absolutely historic. In 50 years, all involved (including pres. Poroshenko and Philaret, no matter how unpleasand personally both are) will be viewed very favourably by history. You'll see.

The Tomos of autocephaly remains elusive.  What is more, the EP more than any other jurisdiction historically denounced ethnophyletism.  Thus, the idea of one church for one segment of the Ukrainian population and another church for another (those who presently attend the UOC-MP) is, by the EP’s own standards, abhorrent.

You also cite the elusive Tomos of Autocephaly.  If such a Tomos has been granted in 50 years by the EP, which it is becoming obvious desires Ukraine as an “autonomous” church in part to correct revenue shortfalls and to increase its political power, that would be something worth celebrating, but frankly, I think the KP and UAOC checked into the wrong hotel, so to speak, if autocephaly rather than winding up under EP bishops who aren’t even Ukrainian or Russian was the objective.

They are doubtless dismayed over the relative flop that was the 2016 Pan Orthodox synod, and even more dismayed at the profoundly negative reaction engendered by the events in the Ukraine, and worse, the strident and over the top actions of the defenders of those actions (for example, the Swedish Rue Daru parish which basically excommunicated 16 members who opposed the action in Ukraine pending a written recantation of those views, an action which I think many Orthodox Christians in the West or indeed in the Old Country would view as astonishingly heavy-handed, particularly given that this is not efen a dogmatic action). 

Now apply this logic to MP anathemacising Philaret. Or denying last rites to his flock. Or, indeed, denying funeral rites to fallen Ukrainian service members on account of them being sinful for participating in "fraticidal war". Or king-worshipping Putin (according to Patr. Kirill, Putin is "a gift from God"). Or taking credit for and heavily promoting the "Russian World" doctrine which is a fig leaf for current Russian imperialistic shenanigans. Or having "Ukrainian Orthodox Church" clerics publicly blessing Russian naval weapons in Crimea. I'd say it's both astonishing and heavy-handed.

I have heard reports of abuses by the UOC-MP and if true, these reports represent serious failures on their part, but I would also propose that people who have committed to the UOC-KP ought to expect a lack of pastoral care from all but the least petty and most magnanimous of the UOC-MP clergy.  This is, sadly, the nature of a schism.  To the extent the UOC-MP and UOC-KP/UAOC appear to have taken sides in a military conflict, if true, if the one church is blessing Ukrainian soldiers and weapons, and the other Russian soldiers and weapons, that would be serious misconduct.  I would also argue that the UOC-MP ought to stay out of Crimea except to provide pastoral care to the Ukrainian speaking population, since the presence of UOC-MP clergy in Crimea, where the UOC-KP and in all probability the Ukrainian Catholics would have difficulty gainig admission could have the effect of resulting in an undesirable politicization which would interfere with pastoral operations.

So to the extent any of the above issues you cite have occurred, they are abuses, but they do not negate the abuses of Constantinople, nor do they do anything to ease my suspicions Constantinople is acting in bad faith.

My own view expressed elsewhere is that the MP ought to have tried to pre-empt this by granting autocephaly to the UOC-MP, and indeed pushing for a reconciliation with the UOC-KP, but I suspect now that we are on this course, the EP will exploit factional infighting between the UAOC and the UOC-KP to continue to delay granting autocephaly, which they are already doing, by the way.  Lamentably, I think autocephaly is probably neccessary due to the alienation caused by the political situation, but I have deep concerns about whether the process currently occurring is in good faith.   As of right now, it seems like the UOC-KP and UAOC have actually lost autocephally and gained nothing, since most of the Eastern Orthodox churches still regard them as uncanonical and in a state of schism.

Meanwhile, you can’t justify the abuses of the Rue Daru congregation.  Two wrongs do not make a right, and it seems to me like your post is trying to do that.

Are you trying to make me crazy or what?

Umm, no?

Yes, you are and you love it.

I prefer as a general rule not to derange members of the forum.

Too late.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Opus118

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #626 on: December 10, 2018, 01:29:24 AM »
My websites are not your websites since they are foundations originally established by the CIA. I do not know where politics begins and end, so they will not be cited. However, like all academic institutions they do cite their sources. They did predict what occurred at the Kerch strait a couple of weeks ago so I was looking into the notion and sources that Patriarch Kirill will be gently forced out and Metropolitan Tikhon Shevkunov replacing him. I did come across a couple of articles that do not venture into this area that I think might be of interest.

The first is from Sergey Chapnin (I think he is the one that had a humor column at Interfax-religion.ru but I could be wrong): https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&tab=wT&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fsnob.ru%2Fentry%2F165225. Note that the English translation is near perfect, so someone edited it.

Another article from Credo.ru indicates that there are three candidates for primate of unified Ukrainian Orthodox Church are from the UOC-MP: https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://credo.press/221358/&xid=17259,15700022,15700124,15700149,15700186,15700190,15700201,15700237,15700242&usg=ALkJrhgXORW4nWaO6YKjibLfVhDgp0GQMA

According to insider information, the Ecumenical Patriarch convincingly asked Patriarch Filaret not to put forward his candidacy as a primate at the Unification Council.  It is unclear what Filaret is going to do.  Whether there will be a demonstrative demarche when Patriarch Filaret and the bishops loyal to him leave the meeting hall, or the parties agree to some kind of compromise, remains a mystery.  Constantinople stakes on the part of the episcopate of the UOC-MP.  However, the head of the UOC-MP, Metropolitan Onufry (Berezovsky), and the bishops loyal to him are not going to take part in the Council.  Most likely, from ten to twenty bishops of the UOC-MP will nevertheless take part in the Council.  Three of them are real candidates for the primates of the newly created Church.  Bishops who decide not to take part in the Council will be banned from the Ecumenical throne.

I also learned from this article that you cannot be truly Orthodox and speak fluent French.  I am not fluent, but I once was. Is this a translation problem? I have a problem with my conception of the Pentacost if this notion is true. 
 
If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs.  If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #627 on: December 10, 2018, 02:23:18 PM »
http://orthochristian.com/117797.html

PHILARET: IF WE DON’T LIKE THE CONDITIONS OF THE “UNIFICATION COUNCIL,” WE SIMPLY WON’T VOTE (+ VIDEO)
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #628 on: December 10, 2018, 02:27:46 PM »

3. This would result, if the EP continues its current tactical doctrine, in some form of unwarranted, massive, pre-emptive retaliation; for example, the UOCNA could be at risk of dissolution.

No way this happens, Archbishop Daniel of Pamphillon of the UOCEP in NA loves being a Greek bishop as does Antony of Ieropolis.
then let them go to Greece.
By extension, Russian bishops should go to?
Ukraine is Russia. Ukrainians are little Russians.
Report sent.



...and yes, this attitude is why Ukraine, and Ukrainian Church, need to sever formal ties with anything Russian. Racist "little Russian" theory is a de-facto official position of ROC as well as the famous 86% of Russians from the very top all the way down.

The Ukrainian Church is part of the MP and will remain so forever. Get over it. And whether you like it or not Ukrainians and Russians are brothers and will be forever. Get over it. Racism does not apply as both are slavs. Perhaps you want us to believe that you are a separate ethnic group? Maybe you're closer to being Poles.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 02:28:15 PM by ICXCNIKA »
Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.—Oscar Wilde

Offline cossack 316

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #629 on: December 10, 2018, 03:24:29 PM »
The Ukrainian Church is part of the MP and will remain so forever. Get over it. And whether you like it or not Ukrainians and Russians are brothers and will be forever. Get over it. Racism does not apply as both are slavs. Perhaps you want us to believe that you are a separate ethnic group? Maybe you're closer to being Poles.
[/quote]

Dude you are so full of (removed - Mor)it's not even funny. Ukrainians are a separate ethnic group. I wonder how much money the Kremlin pays you to spread your (removed - Mor)?

Edited to remove profanity.  Mor Ephrem, section moderator.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 09:58:06 PM by Mor Ephrem »