Author Topic: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”  (Read 14626 times)

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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #540 on: November 30, 2018, 11:30:38 PM »
Legally the buildings of Pochaiv were leased to the UOC-MP for use for 50 years years ago when communism fell. The property belongs to the state as an historical site.
Let me guess: the Soviets stole the buildings from the Church and the Ukrainian state was glad to perpetuate the injustice.  Did I hit bull's eye?
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #541 on: November 30, 2018, 11:33:37 PM »
Let me guess: the Soviets stole the buildings from the Church and the Ukrainian state was glad to perpetuate the injustice.  Did I hit bull's eye?
The UOC-MP operated it during the Soviet period as well as afterwards and had an agreement in 2003 with the modern Ukrainian state to use it.

I'm skeptical that the 2003 agreement was "illegal", since the UOC-MP had been using it previously, and because the current Kiev government has a bias against the UOC-MP affecting its judgements.
Without me knowing more about the case, I guess that maybe, as with a decent number of agreements, one could find a defect and use that to declare the 2003 judgement "void". For example, supporters of Crimea being in the R.F. sometimes say that the 1954 Soviet transfer of Crimea to Ukraine was defective procedurally and so Crimea should still be part of Russia.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 11:38:48 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #542 on: November 30, 2018, 11:46:18 PM »
Let me guess: the Soviets stole the buildings from the Church and the Ukrainian state was glad to perpetuate the injustice.  Did I hit bull's eye?
The UOC-MP operated it during the Soviet period as well as afterwards and had an agreement in 2003 with the modern Ukrainian state to use it.

I'm skeptical that the 2003 agreement was "illegal"...
When it comes to law, might makes it right. 
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #543 on: December 01, 2018, 01:36:43 AM »
What is the "Drahomanov Sociological Center" and why should its poll be taken at face value?
It is consistent with the PEW polling which was conducted by a Moscow-based social research agency, still functioning in Russia, and in good stead:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,74707.msg1539929.html#msg1539929
Isn't this the real issue?
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #544 on: December 01, 2018, 04:37:31 AM »
Legitimate question

Can someone please explain to me how the Ukrainian schismatics are going to possibly get autocephaly, but, the OCA has not been recognized by the EP, the Jerusalem/Antioch and Serbia/Macedonia situations have not been worked out?

This is what tells me the EP and this situation is a farce, that, and the Ukrainian process being expedited. I fully expect the EP to grant autocephaly to the OCA and resolve the other two issues post-haste as soon as he’s finished meddling in Ukraine

This is an extremely valid point.  The EP has on the issue of Antioch vs. Jerusalem effectively abrogated its responsibility under Canon 28 of Chalcedon to settle and resolve the problem, which together with Apostolic Canon 16 and Canon 64 of the regional synod of Carthage in the Pedalion, which I documented in another thread, in my opinion effectively voids the argument that the EP has any primacy whatsoever beyond a ceremonial role.  I would argue that if Constantinople does not resolve problems as required by Canon 28, it is effectively voiding its own privileges; it’s a use it or lose it type of deal, because at some point, circumstances will require a resolution between Jerusalem and Antioch, and if the two churches negotiate a solution themselves rather than relying on the judgement call of Constantinople (which by the way is how schisms are dealt with in the OO church; this mostly works with the exception of the interminable schism of the Syriac Orthodox churches in India), the EP has lost its one specific source of canonical authority.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #545 on: December 01, 2018, 04:50:03 AM »
I'm curious as to whether anybody on this board has actually met the current EP and spoken to him.

I want to make it clear by the way, as I have expressed in another thread,  that on a personal level, while I have not met Patriarch Bartholomew and while I completely disagree with the current actions of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, I deeply love, respect and admire His All Holiness.

I am also not at all convinced this current situation is one of his own creation, because his patriarchate is issuing statements contradictory to statements they issued in the 1990s concerning their role within the Orthodox church.

There are several bishops in the EP who I love deeply, who are mostly older bishops, including the Patriarch, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, Archbishop Gregory of Nyssa (who is in charge of ACROD, but was given the ceremonial see of Nyssa, owing to his love for St. Gregory the brother of St. Basil, which of course had become depopulated due to the genocide of Pontic Greeks in WWI and the forced population transfer/mutual ethnic cleansing that was to follow).

Also, I think we should perhaps consider being more cautious about using the term Phanariot to refer to everything pertaining to the EP.  The Phanariot Greeks are an endangered and persecuted ethnic minority.  Frankly, I doubt that most Phanariot people, and most EP bishops, are happy about the collapse in relations with the MP.

This is a terrible tragedy which is mainly the fault of the EP, but I am strongly inclined to suspect the people pushing for the actions taken by the EP which caused this consist of those members of the Holy Synod of Constantinople who are hoping to be elected to replace Patriarch Bartholomew.

"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #546 on: December 01, 2018, 04:54:02 AM »
I'm curious as to whether anybody on this board has actually met the current EP and spoken to him.
I hope to invite him to lunch somesay -- but I want to meet Mor and Rachel first. :-X

I want to make that happen.  I want to make that happen with all my heart.  I want to make that happen with my very body, too.

I can picture the four of you having lunch in the Grill Room of the old Four Seasons Restaurant at the Seagram Building, memory eternal. 
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #547 on: December 01, 2018, 10:08:02 AM »
I want to make it clear by the way, as I have expressed in another thread,  that on a personal level, while I have not met Patriarch Bartholomew and while I completely disagree with the current actions of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, I deeply love, respect and admire His All Holiness.

No Oxford comma?  I don’t think we can be friends anymore.
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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #548 on: December 01, 2018, 01:34:45 PM »
I can picture the four of you having lunch in the Grill Room of the old Four Seasons Restaurant at the Seagram Building, memory eternal. 
Do you have a menu?

Seriously, I am concerned about all these titles the Ecumenical Patriarch or some ambitious upcoming clergy is/are taking on.  One could argue that these titles belong to the Lord and no other.  This could be dangerous.  Non-Orthodox could see all this posturing and lose any interest in visiting Orthodox Churches.  The Lord could get fed up with it at some point and do something about it.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #549 on: December 01, 2018, 01:50:13 PM »
What is the "Drahomanov Sociological Center" and why should its poll be taken at face value?
It is consistent with the PEW polling which was conducted by a Moscow-based social research agency, still functioning in Russia, and in good stead:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,74707.msg1539929.html#msg1539929
Isn't this the real issue?
Suppose that more Orthodox in America accepted the OCA & MP(due to the unity of Orthodox in America under the MP until the early 20th century) over the EP, or vice verse (due to the EP's "barbarian lands" claims), as the proper canonical church for America. Poll results themselves would not make the underlying claims correct. Popular opinion can be helpful in deciding something's canonicity (the majority could tend to have a better understanding), but not by itself decisive.

Or to give another example, suppose that most members of the Orthodox church felt that church attendance was not particularly helpful. Or suppose that most of them thought it was better to let ordained clergy remarry (the EP's new decision in contradiction of his own recently-called Council of Crete). Knowing the opinions is helpful, but not decisive.

And of course, a big factor is that the poll is made of all professed Orthodox, not just those part of the canonical church. Eastern Catholics, especially Melkites, might consider themselves Orthodox and might make up a bigger percent of the professed Orthodox in some country or region (Lebanon or Transcarpathia), but their opinion on what course the church should take is not decisive there either.
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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #550 on: December 01, 2018, 07:38:30 PM »
Isn't this EP of North America?
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #551 on: December 01, 2018, 07:54:38 PM »
Let me guess: the Soviets stole the buildings from the Church

The state owned the building even back in the times of the Tsars.

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #552 on: December 05, 2018, 10:54:03 AM »
The date for the unification council has been announced for December 15th. Romfea.gr has published what it says is the first page of the draft charter for the new church: https://orthodoxie.com/le-site-grec-romfea-publie-la-premiere-page-du-projet-de-statuts-de-la-nouvelle-eglise-autocephale-dukraine/

Among other things, they report that stavropegic monasteries in Ukraine will be controlled by Constantinople, and canonizations of saints will have to be approved by Constantinople. If this turns out to be true, then the new church will actually be less independent than the autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate.
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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #553 on: December 05, 2018, 11:03:27 AM »
I'm ready for church
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #554 on: December 05, 2018, 11:50:12 AM »
Among other things, they report that stavropegic monasteries in Ukraine will be controlled by Constantinople, and canonizations of saints will have to be approved by Constantinople. If this turns out to be true, then the new church will actually be less independent than the autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate.
I read somewhere that a Church goes under the tutelage of another for a period before being granted autocephaly.  In other words, autocephaly seems to be a process, not an event.  Or at least that's what I glean from my rather superficial understanding of such matters.
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #555 on: December 05, 2018, 09:17:55 PM »
The date for the unification council has been announced for December 15th. Romfea.gr has published what it says is the first page of the draft charter for the new church: https://orthodoxie.com/le-site-grec-romfea-publie-la-premiere-page-du-projet-de-statuts-de-la-nouvelle-eglise-autocephale-dukraine/

Among other things, they report that stavropegic monasteries in Ukraine will be controlled by Constantinople, and canonizations of saints will have to be approved by Constantinople. If this turns out to be true, then the new church will actually be less independent than the autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate.

Sounds like a terrible deal for the KP and UAOC. The KP loses the P altogether and the UAOC loses the A. Why accept such a bad deal? To spite Moscow? Not worth it. The status quo is better than this deal. The leader of the new "Church" will need permission from the Phanar to even setup a meeting with Metropolitan Onufry.
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Offline WPM

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #556 on: December 05, 2018, 09:25:41 PM »
Looks like Orthodoxy is incorporated into the Russian State.
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Offline StanislavU

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #557 on: December 06, 2018, 01:54:51 AM »
Sounds like a terrible deal for the KP and UAOC. The KP loses the P altogether and the UAOC loses the A. Why accept such a bad deal? To spite Moscow? Not worth it. The status quo is better than this deal. The leader of the new "Church" will need permission from the Phanar to even setup a meeting with Metropolitan Onufry.

Yeah, of course. Status quo is better. "Canonical recognition" and "communion with World Orthodoxy" don't matter, right? That's exactly what MP apologists said all these years!

And oh BTW, "to spite Moscow" is not such a bad thing. Are you forgetting that "Moscow" is a military enemy of Ukraine? Aggressor, to be exact? Arguably, always was, we just didn't realize it.

Finally, Captain Obvious asked to tell you that details of "the deal" are not actually known. Wait 10 days.

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #558 on: December 06, 2018, 03:12:30 AM »
In other words, autocephaly seems to be a process, not an event.

This is very Orthodox, not only in the case of granting autocephaly, but also e.g potential EO-OO reunification, canonisations and so on.
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #559 on: December 06, 2018, 09:17:32 AM »
The date for the unification council has been announced for December 15th. Romfea.gr has published what it says is the first page of the draft charter for the new church: https://orthodoxie.com/le-site-grec-romfea-publie-la-premiere-page-du-projet-de-statuts-de-la-nouvelle-eglise-autocephale-dukraine/

So in other words this is pure speculation.  What a waste of time: let's wait until we have the facts.

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #560 on: December 06, 2018, 09:38:12 AM »
So the "unification council" is definitely taking place on the 15th. Also, whatever people say he is, Filaret is still definitely calling himself "patriarch" in official statements.

see this statement from the KP (in Ukrainian, but google-translates reasonably smoothly): https://www.cerkva.info/church/zhurnal-zasidannia-sviashchennoho-synodu-6-hrudnia-2018-r

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #561 on: December 06, 2018, 09:45:19 AM »
Sounds like a terrible deal for the KP and UAOC. The KP loses the P altogether and the UAOC loses the A. Why accept such a bad deal? To spite Moscow? Not worth it. The status quo is better than this deal. The leader of the new "Church" will need permission from the Phanar to even setup a meeting with Metropolitan Onufry.

Yeah, of course. Status quo is better. "Canonical recognition" and "communion with World Orthodoxy" don't matter, right? That's exactly what MP apologists said all these years!

And oh BTW, "to spite Moscow" is not such a bad thing. Are you forgetting that "Moscow" is a military enemy of Ukraine? Aggressor, to be exact? Arguably, always was, we just didn't realize it.

Finally, Captain Obvious asked to tell you that details of "the deal" are not actually known. Wait 10 days.

Canonical recognition by 1 church. The EP cannot offer communion with World Orthodoxy. Whatever creation happens will still be considered a schismatic organization by virtually everyone else. Moscow is not an enemy or aggressor. the nazi junta in Kiev installed by the West is. Committing genocide against their former citizens.
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Offline StanislavU

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #562 on: December 06, 2018, 09:53:30 AM »
Sounds like a terrible deal for the KP and UAOC. The KP loses the P altogether and the UAOC loses the A. Why accept such a bad deal? To spite Moscow? Not worth it. The status quo is better than this deal. The leader of the new "Church" will need permission from the Phanar to even setup a meeting with Metropolitan Onufry.

Yeah, of course. Status quo is better. "Canonical recognition" and "communion with World Orthodoxy" don't matter, right? That's exactly what MP apologists said all these years!

And oh BTW, "to spite Moscow" is not such a bad thing. Are you forgetting that "Moscow" is a military enemy of Ukraine? Aggressor, to be exact? Arguably, always was, we just didn't realize it.

Finally, Captain Obvious asked to tell you that details of "the deal" are not actually known. Wait 10 days.

Canonical recognition by 1 church. The EP cannot offer communion with World Orthodoxy. Whatever creation happens will still be considered a schismatic organization by virtually everyone else. Moscow is not an enemy or aggressor. the nazi junta in Kiev installed by the West is. Committing genocide against their former citizens.
Congratulations, you achieved a perfect score. Every statement you made here is false.

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #563 on: December 06, 2018, 10:56:04 AM »
Among other things, they report that stavropegic monasteries in Ukraine will be controlled by Constantinople, and canonizations of saints will have to be approved by Constantinople. If this turns out to be true, then the new church will actually be less independent than the autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate.
I read somewhere that a Church goes under the tutelage of another for a period before being granted autocephaly.  In other words, autocephaly seems to be a process, not an event.  Or at least that's what I glean from my rather superficial understanding of such matters.

If the EP is to be believed, the Kiev metropolis has been under their tutelage, off and on, for 1000 years.
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Offline WPM

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #564 on: December 06, 2018, 11:02:21 AM »
A church with 1000 years worship and liturgical experience is good enough for me.
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Formula of Concord 1577

A restatement of some teachings in the Augsburg Confession over which Lutherans had become divided. The Solid Declaration is the unabridged version. The Epitome is an abridged version intended for congregations to study. Over 8,100 pastors and theologians signed it, as well as over 50 government leaders.



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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #565 on: December 06, 2018, 04:15:52 PM »
The date for the unification council has been announced for December 15th. Romfea.gr has published what it says is the first page of the draft charter for the new church: https://orthodoxie.com/le-site-grec-romfea-publie-la-premiere-page-du-projet-de-statuts-de-la-nouvelle-eglise-autocephale-dukraine/

Among other things, they report that stavropegic monasteries in Ukraine will be controlled by Constantinople, and canonizations of saints will have to be approved by Constantinople. If this turns out to be true, then the new church will actually be less independent than the autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate.

As I had predicted, all Ukrainian parishes abroad will be placed under the EP.

But why do they call this new church autocephalous, when what is described is autonomy, not autocephaly?
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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #566 on: December 06, 2018, 04:56:24 PM »
New income stream for the EP.  Brilliant.
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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #567 on: December 06, 2018, 05:12:57 PM »
, the EP has lost its one specific source of canonical authority.

How? 

I think it's approved translations of the Bible reading.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 05:13:44 PM by WPM »
For questions about the history of the Lutheran faith see the Book of Concord available from Pastor's office.

Formula of Concord 1577

A restatement of some teachings in the Augsburg Confession over which Lutherans had become divided. The Solid Declaration is the unabridged version. The Epitome is an abridged version intended for congregations to study. Over 8,100 pastors and theologians signed it, as well as over 50 government leaders.



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Offline WPM

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #568 on: December 06, 2018, 05:27:44 PM »
Sounds like a terrible deal for the KP and UAOC. The KP loses the P altogether and the UAOC loses the A. Why accept such a bad deal? To spite Moscow? Not worth it. The status quo is better than this deal. The leader of the new "Church" will need permission from the Phanar to even setup a meeting with Metropolitan Onufry.

Yeah, of course. Status quo is better. "Canonical recognition" and "communion with World Orthodoxy" don't matter, right? That's exactly what MP apologists said all these years!

And oh BTW, "to spite Moscow" is not such a bad thing. Are you forgetting that "Moscow" is a military enemy of Ukraine? Aggressor, to be exact? Arguably, always was, we just didn't realize it.

Finally, Captain Obvious asked to tell you that details of "the deal" are not actually known. Wait 10 days.

Canonical recognition by 1 church. The EP cannot offer communion with World Orthodoxy. Whatever creation happens will still be considered a schismatic organization by virtually everyone else. Moscow is not an enemy or aggressor. the nazi junta in Kiev installed by the West is. Committing genocide against their former citizens.

EP of North America
For questions about the history of the Lutheran faith see the Book of Concord available from Pastor's office.

Formula of Concord 1577

A restatement of some teachings in the Augsburg Confession over which Lutherans had become divided. The Solid Declaration is the unabridged version. The Epitome is an abridged version intended for congregations to study. Over 8,100 pastors and theologians signed it, as well as over 50 government leaders.



WELS/ELCA/LCMS Church Pastor's Word

Online Dominika

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #569 on: December 06, 2018, 05:46:30 PM »
Autocephalous churches make their own chrism

POC takes it from the EP. And I belive that's not only us.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #570 on: December 06, 2018, 05:59:19 PM »
Autocephalous churches make their own chrism

POC takes it from the EP. And I belive that's not only us.

Is there a reason that the POC does not make its own chrism?
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #571 on: December 06, 2018, 06:04:05 PM »
Most churches don’t make their own. I think only five or so do.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #572 on: December 06, 2018, 06:45:51 PM »
But why do they call this new church autocephalous, when what is described is autonomy, not autocephaly?

Are you serious?
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline WPM

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #573 on: December 06, 2018, 08:54:14 PM »
But why do they call this new church autocephalous, when what is described is autonomy, not autocephaly?

Are you serious?

For a forum? Not too serious.
For questions about the history of the Lutheran faith see the Book of Concord available from Pastor's office.

Formula of Concord 1577

A restatement of some teachings in the Augsburg Confession over which Lutherans had become divided. The Solid Declaration is the unabridged version. The Epitome is an abridged version intended for congregations to study. Over 8,100 pastors and theologians signed it, as well as over 50 government leaders.



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Offline Samn!

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #574 on: December 06, 2018, 11:56:13 PM »
So it seems that the "unification council" won't be electing a primate for the Ukrainian church, just putting together a list of three candidates, basically just like GOARCH... Each bishop will bring along one layperson or monk and one clergy member, who also have voting rights.

English summary of the letter sent out to UOC-MP bishops: https://panorthodoxcemes.blogspot.com/2018/12/constantinople-finalizes-procedure-for.html

The originals, in Greek and Ukrainian: https://www.facebook.com/oleksandr.drabinko/posts/2317509274940642

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #575 on: December 07, 2018, 12:20:40 AM »
I can’t help but think that an “Autonomous Orthodox Church of Ukraine” existing alongside an autonomous “Ukrainian Orthodox Church” is not unlike “The Judean People’s Front” and “The People’s Front of Judea”.

Poor Loretta.
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline Luke

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #576 on: December 07, 2018, 01:34:38 AM »
I can’t help but think that an “Autonomous Orthodox Church of Ukraine” existing alongside an autonomous “Ukrainian Orthodox Church” is not unlike “The Judean People’s Front” and “The People’s Front of Judea”.

Poor Loretta.
:laugh:
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 01:35:00 AM by Luke »

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #577 on: December 07, 2018, 05:59:32 AM »
Autocephalous churches make their own chrism

POC takes it from the EP. And I belive that's not only us.

Is there a reason that the POC does not make its own chrism?

Because of this
Most churches don’t make their own. I think only five or so do.

Maybe also because we're small Church or want to highlight that our autocephaly is from the EP and not the MP (we treat the tomos of the second one only as a kind of acceptation or confirmation).
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Offline Samn!

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #578 on: December 07, 2018, 06:05:57 AM »
Even Antioch and Jerusalem don't consecrate their own chrism in modern times, due to the hangover of Constantinople's Ottoman-era domination of them. This is especially ironic in Antioch's case, because in the 11th century there was a lively polemic over Antioch's claim that only it had the right to consecrate chrism at all, on the grounds that the rare Caucasian flowers used in the process came from its jurisdiction.

Offline Mercurius1

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #579 on: December 07, 2018, 09:50:06 AM »
I didn't realize that according to Patriarch Bartholomew, as soon as the unification council elects a new Metropolitan next Saturday, then Metropolitan Onuphry will no longer be allowed to hold that title

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #580 on: December 07, 2018, 09:58:45 AM »
I didn't realize that according to Patriarch Bartholomew, as soon as the unification council elects a new Metropolitan next Saturday, then Metropolitan Onuphry will no longer be allowed to hold that title

And yet Metropolitan Onuphry will be the only Metropolitan of Kiev even after the EP's antics. Patriarch Bartholomew has no jurisdiction/authority over UOC and its Metropolitan.
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #581 on: December 07, 2018, 10:01:07 AM »

Autocephalous churches make their own chrism

POC takes it from the EP. And I belive that's not only us.
[/quote]

[/quote]


Quote
"Myrrh is a tribute to traditions and not dependence . . .   
Cited by advisor to the Ukrainian president, Rostislav Pavlenko, in a brief interview on the talk-show "On Air" on the TV channel Priamoi.
Translated by P. Steeves: https://www2.stetson.edu/~psteeves/relnews/181206b.html     

Offline Mercurius1

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #582 on: December 07, 2018, 10:09:56 AM »
I didn't realize that according to Patriarch Bartholomew, as soon as the unification council elects a new Metropolitan next Saturday, then Metropolitan Onuphry will no longer be allowed to hold that title

And yet Metropolitan Onuphry will be the only Metropolitan of Kiev even after the EP's antics. Patriarch Bartholomew has no jurisdiction/authority over UOC and its Metropolitan.


I really wonder if the other autocephelous Churches will remain silent or on the fence after this "unification council" is held next Saturday? If the EP is really out-stepping his bounds then I can't fathom why they would remain silent, and, especially why Athos has yet to say anything

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #583 on: December 07, 2018, 10:14:18 AM »
The craziness continues. The EP has turned Orthodoxy into a telenovela. All the work put forth to create the Episcopal Assemblies and lead to greater unity is dead. The divisions created by this affront will last for generations.
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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #584 on: December 07, 2018, 10:15:56 AM »
Maybe also because we're small Church or want to highlight that our autocephaly is from the EP and not the MP (we treat the tomos of the second one only as a kind of acceptation or confirmation).

Our sensitive friend Mike had said before that the POC occasionally got its chrism from Moscow.
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