Author Topic: Obedience  (Read 2519 times)

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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Obedience
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2018, 04:51:19 PM »
I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that St. Constantine is pre-Schism.
He isn't listed on the latin calender.  http://www.boston-catholic-journal.com/roman-martrylogy-in-english/roman-martyrology-may-in-english.htm#May_21st

Offline hecma925

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Re: Obedience
« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2018, 04:58:20 PM »
I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that St. Constantine is pre-Schism.
This is correct for all schisms, not just the 1054 one.  ;)

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Obedience
« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2018, 12:51:32 PM »
I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that St. Constantine is pre-Schism.
He isn't listed on the latin calender.  http://www.boston-catholic-journal.com/roman-martrylogy-in-english/roman-martyrology-may-in-english.htm#May_21st

By that logic, Sts Katherine and Barbara are not venerated by Catholics. Even though they obviously are.
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Offline biro

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Re: Obedience
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2018, 01:27:55 PM »
He's been told several times that he's wrong.
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Obedience
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2018, 02:16:03 PM »
Latins have a vendetta against st Constantine. 

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Obedience
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2018, 02:32:04 PM »
The blimp laicized a nasal palimpsest. I have proof.
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Obedience
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2018, 04:35:00 PM »
If you lost it all on account of an individual.  You'll feel the same as the Vatican.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Obedience
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2018, 05:18:57 PM »
If you lost it all on account of an individual.  You'll feel the same as the Vatican.

If you don’t stop this off-topic nonsense, I will.  It would be better for you if you stopped it, even if it’s less fun for me.

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Offline Svetlana

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Re: Obedience
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2018, 04:41:19 PM »
obedience and discipline is a type of virtue

Thank you for this insight.  Can you elaborate ?

-- Svetlana

Offline Svetlana

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Re: Obedience
« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2018, 04:49:18 PM »
We have to obey God and obey others in Him. I don't think that someone collecting people for him should be followed, but should be respected for the sake of the responsibility the Church has give to him (and because we may not be judging him rightly). I believe obeying the Church hierarchy (not individuals) is obeying God. Otherwise everyone will have his own judgement and there will be no one Church. I think the 1st epistle of Clement has all the materials for this matter.

--
Thank you also for your thoughts on this.  Yes, I do agree with you that we must respect the role and responsibility of pastors who have been given the task of guiding us.

Do you have a link by which I can access the 1st epistle of Clement ?

Also, your logo shows that you are Ethiopian (?).  In this case, I would readily understand your response as natural to what you experience in Oriental Orthodoxy.  Those ancient Christian Apostolic traditions are simpler and closer to what Apostles gave.

My question, thus, may continue further :  what to do in the case of grave mistakenness on the part of clergy -- or even insistence on obedience on their part, when you have suffered wrongs from them ?  And of course, just like medical doctors in malpractice -- they all cover for each other.  We small parishioners are left with no protection.  This is more the case on the Byzantine side, because of their total domination system.

Thus, once again, my question on obedience is serious.  I have suffered very much from clergy in this.

-- Svetlana

Offline Svetlana

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Re: Obedience
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2018, 06:50:47 PM »
I guess my questions would be:

When should you not be obedient?
What are the commonly occurring examples for this situation?
If there aren't common examples, what are the rare ones that we should be prepared for?

--
Thank you for your input.  My ditto to your questions.  Answer, once again, is our own discernment, which should be attuned to the Holy Spirit.  Problem is that the Orthodox Churches do not teach us to think for ourselves, but to be obedient to clergy.  In our "late days" era, it is wise not to obey priests.  And discern advice toward positive outcome -- keeping a keen eye on the whole picture.

I was the one who started this thread, not expecting the nonsense that came onto it.
I believe I have come up with m own answers.

-- Svetlana

Offline ayenew

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Re: Obedience
« Reply #56 on: November 10, 2018, 04:18:45 AM »
We have to obey God and obey others in Him. I don't think that someone collecting people for him should be followed, but should be respected for the sake of the responsibility the Church has give to him (and because we may not be judging him rightly). I believe obeying the Church hierarchy (not individuals) is obeying God. Otherwise everyone will have his own judgement and there will be no one Church. I think the 1st epistle of Clement has all the materials for this matter.

--
Thank you also for your thoughts on this.  Yes, I do agree with you that we must respect the role and responsibility of pastors who have been given the task of guiding us.

Do you have a link by which I can access the 1st epistle of Clement ?

Also, your logo shows that you are Ethiopian (?).  In this case, I would readily understand your response as natural to what you experience in Oriental Orthodoxy.  Those ancient Christian Apostolic traditions are simpler and closer to what Apostles gave.

My question, thus, may continue further :  what to do in the case of grave mistakenness on the part of clergy -- or even insistence on obedience on their part, when you have suffered wrongs from them ?  And of course, just like medical doctors in malpractice -- they all cover for each other.  We small parishioners are left with no protection.  This is more the case on the Byzantine side, because of their total domination system.

Thus, once again, my question on obedience is serious.  I have suffered very much from clergy in this.

-- Svetlana

Here is a link I am using: https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01

Or an audio book at: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MVAp8NU6DAk

Yes, I believe it is the "simple" and conservative approach of our church that is closely related to early(apostolic) Christianity. But, it will never mean there is no problem here. There is.

I think we are authorised to tell any mistakes (even of the fathers) to the Church, as in Mathew 18:17. But, it may be difficult if all are in the wrong (assuming you are a right judge 😊). After all there is only one father that you cannot change, God. Our ultimate goal is to be with Him and I think we have to judge everything from this perspective, but carefully.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 04:20:55 AM by ayenew »

Offline Svetlana

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Re: Obedience
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2018, 03:12:02 PM »
11/16/18

Thank you very much, Ayenew, for your insights on this question, and also for your link on Schaff, the Swiss theologian.
I do feel it is good to look 'beyond the boundaries' to see other Christian viewpoints, and in many instances, one can find better or more simply, what the most important point is.  I found some of these things in Schaff's quotes.

And yes, what you say about trying to find the balance -- it can be difficult to know what 'obey' means, when one deals with fallible human beings.  For me, the absolute expectation from the EO side -- is too much.  This is especially true when one has experienced less than ethical ways from them, abuses of authority, not treating their people with respect, Love or concern for their welfare, but more exerting a crushing power.  It seems that the EO system is set up to be only as good as the moral quality of its leaders.  If the leadership is wrongly exercised, then there is no protection for the parishioner.  //. Thus, I do what people over many centuries have done:  don't say too much in Confession, and don't put all your trust in priests.  Even in the All-Night Vigil service, there is the phrase :  "Do not place your hopes on the sons of men, in them is no salvation;  their death will come and their thoughts will disappear.  Blessed are they who place their trust in the Lord, and follow His ways."

And also, so that you know, I do value and appreciate the simplicity of the OO's.  Thank you so much for sharing.

Sv.