Author Topic: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism  (Read 6139 times)

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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #180 on: September 15, 2018, 10:06:02 PM »
You must choose. Orthodoxy doesn't need heresy. It's intellectually unsustainable at this point that both sides are orthodox. If you think the RCC is orthodox and the EOC is heretical, our predominance of the Easteen rite is irrelevant and so is your choice of Western/Eastern rite, theologically speaking. If you think the EOC is orthodox and the RCC is heretical, the timidness of our Western rite is irrelevant, just like the timidness of the Russian Catholic Church is (seriously, if the EOC gets so much BS for the few millions of Western converts, what's up for the total irrelevance of the RCC among natives in the largest Old World Christian nation?).
'Cause Fatima?
I think Fatima should solve this elephant in the room rather than cause it.  :laugh:  Also, I haven't checked the numbers, but I'm pretty sure Russia has far less Catholics now than in the time of Fatima, both due to Atheistisation (secularisation is not a proper way to call what happened in the USSR), the emigration of Catholic ethnic minorities (or genocide/deportation, I don't know the dimension of the shameful persecution against Eastern European Germans within Russia itself) and the destruction of the Russian Catholic Church.
There are about 140,000 Catholics in Russia.  There were 500,000 before the Soviets.  Most of the Germans, Ukrainians, Poles and Belarusians deported to Siberia returned to their home countries.
Half a million in today's Russia or in the whole empire?
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #181 on: September 15, 2018, 10:31:59 PM »
You must choose. Orthodoxy doesn't need heresy. It's intellectually unsustainable at this point that both sides are orthodox. If you think the RCC is orthodox and the EOC is heretical, our predominance of the Easteen rite is irrelevant and so is your choice of Western/Eastern rite, theologically speaking. If you think the EOC is orthodox and the RCC is heretical, the timidness of our Western rite is irrelevant, just like the timidness of the Russian Catholic Church is (seriously, if the EOC gets so much BS for the few millions of Western converts, what's up for the total irrelevance of the RCC among natives in the largest Old World Christian nation?).
'Cause Fatima?
I think Fatima should solve this elephant in the room rather than cause it.  :laugh:  Also, I haven't checked the numbers, but I'm pretty sure Russia has far less Catholics now than in the time of Fatima, both due to Atheistisation (secularisation is not a proper way to call what happened in the USSR), the emigration of Catholic ethnic minorities (or genocide/deportation, I don't know the dimension of the shameful persecution against Eastern European Germans within Russia itself) and the destruction of the Russian Catholic Church.

Sorry, I mean "Because of Fatima." A Trad RC could just argue that the reason Russia today has so (comparatively) few Catholics is because the Popes are disobeying the Theotokos's request to explicitly consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart. I'm guessing that they envision a mass conversion of Russian Orthodox if that ever happens.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 10:32:13 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #182 on: September 15, 2018, 11:56:23 PM »
You must choose. Orthodoxy doesn't need heresy. It's intellectually unsustainable at this point that both sides are orthodox. If you think the RCC is orthodox and the EOC is heretical, our predominance of the Easteen rite is irrelevant and so is your choice of Western/Eastern rite, theologically speaking. If you think the EOC is orthodox and the RCC is heretical, the timidness of our Western rite is irrelevant, just like the timidness of the Russian Catholic Church is (seriously, if the EOC gets so much BS for the few millions of Western converts, what's up for the total irrelevance of the RCC among natives in the largest Old World Christian nation?).
'Cause Fatima?
I think Fatima should solve this elephant in the room rather than cause it.  :laugh:  Also, I haven't checked the numbers, but I'm pretty sure Russia has far less Catholics now than in the time of Fatima, both due to Atheistisation (secularisation is not a proper way to call what happened in the USSR), the emigration of Catholic ethnic minorities (or genocide/deportation, I don't know the dimension of the shameful persecution against Eastern European Germans within Russia itself) and the destruction of the Russian Catholic Church.
There are about 140,000 Catholics in Russia.  There were 500,000 before the Soviets.  Most of the Germans, Ukrainians, Poles and Belarusians deported to Siberia returned to their home countries.
Half a million in today's Russia or in the whole empire?
Russia.  Ukraine had a few million.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #183 on: September 16, 2018, 12:02:18 AM »
Russia.  Ukraine had a few million.
Oh, sure. Dumb question.
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Offline noahzarc1

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #184 on: September 16, 2018, 01:10:17 AM »
I think I’m moving towards Eastern Catholicism, specifically Melkite Catholicism (due to it having a special place in my heart). I see Eastern Catholicism as a repaired bridge between us and the West.

You will have Francis as your head, with universal jurisdiction. Read Vatican I, then look carefully at Francis and see if he fits the bill of what was promulgated there and whether you can be in communion with him.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #185 on: September 16, 2018, 02:11:08 PM »
I don't think even the RCC Pope claims to have monarchical powers over the whole church in the whole world anymore.

Of course he does.  Whether or not he tweets it out or exercises the right often is beside the point.

Quote
He knows very well most non-RCC don't listen to him, and his "kingdom" is a tiny slice of land with only about 250 residents. Supposedly all celibate, so when they die, nothing.

There was never a time when RC Popes did not know that there were people on earth who did not accept their authority, but that never stopped them before.

Indeed, Pope Francis relied on those monarchial powers to enforce his will upon the otherwise ostensibly Sovereign Military Order of Malta, for daring to oppose contraception.
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Offline biro

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #186 on: September 16, 2018, 02:26:55 PM »
I don't think even the RCC Pope claims to have monarchical powers over the whole church in the whole world anymore.

Of course he does.  Whether or not he tweets it out or exercises the right often is beside the point.

Quote
He knows very well most non-RCC don't listen to him, and his "kingdom" is a tiny slice of land with only about 250 residents. Supposedly all celibate, so when they die, nothing.

There was never a time when RC Popes did not know that there were people on earth who did not accept their authority, but that never stopped them before.

Indeed, Pope Francis relied on those monarchial powers to enforce his will upon the otherwise ostensibly Sovereign Military Order of Malta, for daring to oppose contraception.

Yes, so many people. The Military Order of Malta.

By the way, the Pope opposes artificial contraception too.

I guess some people are always going to be paranoid about the Pope, no matter what he does.
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #187 on: September 16, 2018, 02:38:52 PM »
The pope. The pope. The pope. Like it is the only thing relevant here to the OP. I tell you a secret:
The bishop of Rome is not that important in everyday life! Yes, he is mentioned in the liturgy along with the bishop. Yes, we pray for him: He has maybe the most challenging task on this planet, may the Paraclite grant him wisdom. But it seems to me that some people on this board spend more time thinking about him than most Catholics :D .
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #188 on: September 16, 2018, 04:07:20 PM »
You guys dogmatized him into a global micromanaging rock star, not us.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #189 on: September 16, 2018, 04:44:46 PM »
The pope. The pope. The pope. Like it is the only thing relevant here to the OP. I tell you a secret:
The bishop of Rome is not that important in everyday life! Yes, he is mentioned in the liturgy along with the bishop. Yes, we pray for him: He has maybe the most challenging task on this planet, may the Paraclite grant him wisdom. But it seems to me that some people on this board spend more time thinking about him than most Catholics :D .

But it is the only thing relevant to the OP. If the Pope is Supreme and Infallible, then every other point of contention between Catholicism and Orthodoxy is either resolved or becomes comparatively irrelevant (no matter how many times this truth is actually mentioned in the average Catholic context).
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 04:45:28 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline biro

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #190 on: September 16, 2018, 04:50:16 PM »
You're Protestant.
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Offline biro

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #191 on: September 16, 2018, 04:51:20 PM »
You guys dogmatized him into a global micromanaging rock star, not us.

You mean he wasn't the bishop of Rome until the early 11th Century?

There are several saints who could tell you otherwise.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #192 on: September 16, 2018, 04:56:28 PM »
You guys dogmatized him into a global micromanaging rock star, not us.

You mean he wasn't the bishop of Rome until the early 11th Century?

There are several saints who could tell you otherwise.

Bishop of Rome= global micromanaging rock star. Thank you biro for another great insight.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #193 on: September 16, 2018, 05:18:14 PM »
You're Protestant.

Yes, and the Pope is the main reason to be or not be Protestant over Catholic, as well.

And my reasons for having not having converted to Orthodoxy yet are almost entirely logistical.
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Offline biro

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #194 on: September 16, 2018, 05:19:23 PM »
You're Protestant.

Yes, and the Pope is the main reason to be or not be Protestant over Catholic, as well.

And my reasons for having not having converted to Orthodoxy yet are almost entirely logistical.

So, neither.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #195 on: September 16, 2018, 05:22:11 PM »
You guys dogmatized him into a global micromanaging rock star, not us.

This. I understand that many Orthodox critiques of papacy might seem unfair as in practice the pope is not charge of everything. But that doesn't make Pastor Aeternus etc. to go away. It's up to Catholics to provide either interpretation of these documents that doesn't make the pope a micromanaging rock star or either do away with these documents entirely.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #196 on: September 16, 2018, 05:24:45 PM »
You're Protestant.

Yes, and the Pope is the main reason to be or not be Protestant over Catholic, as well.

And my reasons for having not having converted to Orthodoxy yet are almost entirely logistical.

So, neither.

Neither what? Neither Protestant nor Orthodox? Yes, that's true to a large extent.

But like I've said before, my current faith designation feels like the most honest with respect to both my background and where I am currently. Were I to just put "Almost Orthodox" or "Inquirer" or "Orthodox in my heart" or something, I would feel like I wasn't being quite as forthright. "Evangelical by default" is an imperfect solution, but it's the only one I've got.

Let's not derail this thread, though. If you really want to talk about me for some reason, start a thread about it and I'll respond.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 05:26:36 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #197 on: September 16, 2018, 05:28:19 PM »
The pope. The pope. The pope. Like it is the only thing relevant...

“Divorce.  Divorce.  Divorce.”

“Contraception.  Contraception.  Contraception.”

Offline melkite

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #198 on: September 16, 2018, 07:20:13 PM »
“Divorce.  Divorce.  Divorce.”

“Contraception.  Contraception.  Contraception.”

What is the OO stance on these two issues?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #199 on: September 16, 2018, 08:11:33 PM »
“Divorce.  Divorce.  Divorce.”

“Contraception.  Contraception.  Contraception.”

What is the OO stance on these two issues?

It’s different from the RC stance, if only on paper.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #200 on: September 16, 2018, 08:40:28 PM »
“Divorce.  Divorce.  Divorce.”

“Contraception.  Contraception.  Contraception.”

What is the OO stance on these two issues?

It’s different from the RC stance, if only on paper.

Not that the RC stance winds up being more than "on paper" half the time.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline melkite

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #201 on: September 16, 2018, 09:53:13 PM »
“Divorce.  Divorce.  Divorce.”

“Contraception.  Contraception.  Contraception.”

What is the OO stance on these two issues?

It’s different from the RC stance, if only on paper.

How does it differ from the EO stance?  Or is it the same?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 09:54:04 PM by melkite »

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #202 on: September 17, 2018, 05:58:05 AM »
The pope. The pope. The pope. Like it is the only thing relevant...

“Divorce.  Divorce.  Divorce.”

“Contraception.  Contraception.  Contraception.”

You are right in that there are those who think that NFP has status equivalent to the ten commandments. The militant defenders of Humanae Vitae, nah, civilization as a whole.
I have little interest in that. Also, I don't think it is necessarily a good idea to tell Christians outside the Catholic church what they are supposed to do in their bedrooms. We ought to be frying bigger fish.
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #203 on: September 17, 2018, 08:14:14 AM »
You are right in that there are those who think that NFP has status equivalent to the ten commandments. The militant defenders of Humanae Vitae, nah, civilization as a whole.
I have little interest in that. Also, I don't think it is necessarily a good idea to tell Christians outside the Catholic church what they are supposed to do in their bedrooms. We ought to be frying bigger fish.

You can fry bigger fish without setting two standards or redefining holiness.  :)  If illness, busyness, or laziness prevent me from mopping my floor, I don't call the resulting state "clean."  I may say other things were more important, but the standard of cleanliness isn't redefined just because I couldn't or wouldn't meet it.  And do we really think God will call me to account in the same manner and to the same degree if the cause were illness vs. laziness?  The difference is what was done with the capacity I had.  Hopefully that makes sense.  And this is just an analogy; I believe God cares much more about the purity of my heart than that of my floors.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #204 on: September 17, 2018, 11:01:52 AM »
I'm a little confused as to what the point of this aside is.

Lepanto says that a lot of Orthodox are way too obsessed with the Pope and think he's the only important thing for Catholics to consider in not becoming Orthodox. Mor responds that this doesn't matter because a lot of Catholics are way too obsessed with divorce and contraception and think these are the only important things for Orthodox to consider in not becoming Catholic (I think?).
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #205 on: September 17, 2018, 01:38:17 PM »
The pope. The pope. The pope. Like it is the only thing relevant...

“Divorce.  Divorce.  Divorce.”

“Contraception.  Contraception.  Contraception.”

You are right in that there are those who think that NFP has status equivalent to the ten commandments. The militant defenders of Humanae Vitae, nah, civilization as a whole.
I have little interest in that. Also, I don't think it is necessarily a good idea to tell Christians outside the Catholic church what they are supposed to do in their bedrooms. We ought to be frying bigger fish.

I’d happily join you in frying fish on any Friday of your choosing.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #206 on: September 17, 2018, 02:02:42 PM »
I'm a little confused as to what the point of this aside is.

Lepanto says that a lot of Orthodox are way too obsessed with the Pope and think he's the only important thing for Catholics to consider in not becoming Orthodox. Mor responds that this doesn't matter because a lot of Catholics are way too obsessed with divorce and contraception and think these are the only important things for Orthodox to consider in not becoming Catholic (I think?).
Dunno, ask Mor. He is the master of cryptic insinuations.
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #207 on: September 17, 2018, 02:03:47 PM »
The pope. The pope. The pope. Like it is the only thing relevant...

“Divorce.  Divorce.  Divorce.”

“Contraception.  Contraception.  Contraception.”

You are right in that there are those who think that NFP has status equivalent to the ten commandments. The militant defenders of Humanae Vitae, nah, civilization as a whole.
I have little interest in that. Also, I don't think it is necessarily a good idea to tell Christians outside the Catholic church what they are supposed to do in their bedrooms. We ought to be frying bigger fish.

I’d happily join you in frying fish on any Friday of your choosing.
Why Friday (Fryday?). Come on, you can do better than that.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 02:04:53 PM by Lepanto »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #208 on: September 17, 2018, 05:27:48 PM »
I'm a little confused as to what the point of this aside is.

Lepanto says that a lot of Orthodox are way too obsessed with the Pope and think he's the only important thing for Catholics to consider in not becoming Orthodox. Mor responds that this doesn't matter because a lot of Catholics are way too obsessed with divorce and contraception and think these are the only important things for Orthodox to consider in not becoming Catholic (I think?).
Dunno, ask Mor. He is the master of cryptic insinuations.

It wasn’t very cryptic if you understood it.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #209 on: September 17, 2018, 05:28:33 PM »
The pope. The pope. The pope. Like it is the only thing relevant...

“Divorce.  Divorce.  Divorce.”

“Contraception.  Contraception.  Contraception.”

You are right in that there are those who think that NFP has status equivalent to the ten commandments. The militant defenders of Humanae Vitae, nah, civilization as a whole.
I have little interest in that. Also, I don't think it is necessarily a good idea to tell Christians outside the Catholic church what they are supposed to do in their bedrooms. We ought to be frying bigger fish.

I’d happily join you in frying fish on any Friday of your choosing.
Why Friday (Fryday?). Come on, you can do better than that.

I figured it was a fasting day for both of us. 

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #210 on: September 17, 2018, 05:32:14 PM »
Fish fry is good any day.
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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #211 on: September 18, 2018, 01:49:49 AM »
The pope. The pope. The pope. Like it is the only thing relevant...

“Divorce.  Divorce.  Divorce.”

“Contraception.  Contraception.  Contraception.”

You are right in that there are those who think that NFP has status equivalent to the ten commandments. The militant defenders of Humanae Vitae, nah, civilization as a whole.
I have little interest in that. Also, I don't think it is necessarily a good idea to tell Christians outside the Catholic church what they are supposed to do in their bedrooms. We ought to be frying bigger fish.

I’d happily join you in frying fish on any Friday of your choosing.
Why Friday (Fryday?). Come on, you can do better than that.

I figured it was a fasting day for both of us.
Fair enough, I was suspecting a pun.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #212 on: October 21, 2018, 08:31:25 PM »
Protestantism barely exists in Arab countries, it’s usually brought by American and European missionaries. I believe the lack of unity was a result of many existing Churches to answer the call of reunion, not as a result of the call to unity in itself.

The Melkite Catholic Church can be said to be the true Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, and the Antiochian Orthodox actually those who rebelled.

Of course lies can be said. Just not with truth.
For centuries prior to 1724, the Greek church of Antioch sat on the fence, amicable with both Constantinople and Rome.  There were many in the Antiochian church who favored ecclesial union with Rome, and intercommunion was not banned as it was in Constantinople and the Slavic churches.  When the Orthodox elected the new Patriarch, who was pro-union and wanted to reunite with Rome, he had support from some of the church, and those who opposed it held a robber council to depose the validly-elected patriarch.

You got that backwards. The previous patriarch from his deathbed called the synod which elected Sylvester Patriarch. The robber council met in Damascus with one bishop of dubious canonical standing who ordained another bishop of dubious canonical standing to hold the council of no canonical standing to elect and ordain a "patriarch" by and with no authority. Even the Vatican refused to recognize it for decades.
Not being valid, no council was needed. Just the anathema.
They elected a new, anti-union patriarch, deposed the Catholic patriarch, and the Patriarchs of the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch are descended from this robber to this day.
The Orthodox Patriarchs succeed him just as they succeed Pat. St. Flavian, someone Old Rome before the Vatican tried to interfere in Antioch's affairs.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #213 on: October 21, 2018, 08:32:58 PM »
Yeah, you're massively oversimplifying that situation. That's okay, the Orthodox do too. But no, the Melkite Catholics are not the legitimate Orthodox patriarchate of Antioch.

An argument can be made for it.  That's all I'm saying.
All heresies and schisms have their arguments, and the heretics and schismatics to argue them.
The Church says different.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #214 on: October 21, 2018, 08:36:57 PM »
No, there doesn't need to be an ecumenical council to condemn a heresy. There are lots of heresies that haven't been condemned in an ecumenical council- e.g. Calvinism, Mormonism. Now, of course, union with the Pope is not in itself a heresy, if the Pope is orthodox. But Papal supremacy is, and if nothing else, Rome forced the issue at Vatican I by anathematizing anyone who doesn't accept it. In such a situation, one is given the stark choice of accepting it as dogma or rejecting it as heresy.

You need an ecumenical council to define that something is or isn't a heresy.  You've never had a council to define that papal supremacy is an objective heresy.  Calvinism and Mormonism can be condemned because they espouse things that were condemned as heresy in one of the 7 ecumenical councils.  But the 7 never touched on the official role of the pope or just what authority he did and did not have.  So at best you can say you don't agree, which would have meant the deposition of Patriarch Cyril was illegitimate since there was no heresy to point to to justify his deposition.
he was a schismatic, and had sworn to the heresies of the Vatican.
And no, we don't have to convene a council to condemn "Pastor Aeternus." Vatican I was held outside the Church, and has nothing to do with us.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #215 on: October 21, 2018, 08:39:50 PM »
We have bishops with the authority to teach. On some issues they meet in councils, issue encyclicals, etc. But not everything needs to be official.  I understand Catholics have this anxiety that, if everything isn't spelled out in a book somewhere, then we're all going to become raving chaos cultists with tentacles growing out of our heads. But you can't go through life like that.

I actually would prefer less to be defined as heresy and more opened up to a hazy "we don't know".  I think doctrinal minimalism would have been good for the Church and would have prevented many unnecessary schisms.  Still, if one of your bishops does or doesn't teach something as heresy, and another takes the opposite view, then there is no place for the Orthodox to point to this or that undefined heresy and anathematize them.  I certainly hope your anathemas are based on more than the opinions of a few.
You can see now. The Phanar has been spouted some heretical ideas for some time, and we have pushed back on it. Now that it has split out in the open, in the issue between Moscow and Constantinople, either Constantinople will be forced to give up those ideas and stay with Orthodoxy, or it will follow the Vatican into schism and heresy out of Orthodoxy.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #216 on: October 21, 2018, 08:41:35 PM »
I think it's safe to say that such a rider is always implied. Not even a Bellarmine or a Cajetan would say that the Pope could suddenly declare Arianism or something and everybody would have to accept it as the truth of God.

I was thinking after I wrote that that it would better convey what I meant if I had said "as long as you're orthodox as I believe it to be."  Of course, if a Pope becomes a heretic, he loses the seat, he's no longer part of the Church.  But what does the Church, or what ought it do, if the Pope is a heretic on an issue that has yet to be defined as such?

As I understand it, that's a minority position.

I don't see how that's relevant.  The Orthodox Church teaches that a council is ecumenical when the whole body of faithful accepts it as such.  All the faithful who became the Oriental Orthodox were part of the faithful Orthodox Catholic Church at the time of the council, so their rejection of it, by Eastern Orthodoxy's own standards, should have rendered the council not ecumenical, even with the miaphysite position being held by a minority.
No, they left Orthodox communion. Those who stayed in kept to Chalcedon.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #217 on: October 21, 2018, 08:44:28 PM »
Which only serves to make my point for me. How is that the "connection with the West" that he's looking for? It's nominal and pointless.

I can't speak for Al Masihi, but for me, it's not a desired connection with the West specifically, but communion with the entire Church, which is only represented in the bishop of Rome as the focal point of unity.  I believe that is what Al Masihi is speaking to as well when he says connection with the West, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding him.
Your quite correct, I desire union with the whole Church, and the West is missing from our Church.

Er-HEM?
all the West, just missing the heresy.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #218 on: October 21, 2018, 08:46:19 PM »
I just want to point out the Antiochian Church had no right to remove Cyril Tanas as Patriarch, as he did not embrace any heretical doctrines.
His election was invallid.
His "ordainers" uncanonical.
The council schismatic.
His confession to the Vatican heretical.

yes, he had to be removed for the rightful Patriarch Sylvester.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #219 on: October 21, 2018, 08:51:42 PM »
Which only serves to make my point for me. How is that the "connection with the West" that he's looking for? It's nominal and pointless.

I can't speak for Al Masihi, but for me, it's not a desired connection with the West specifically, but communion with the entire Church, which is only represented in the bishop of Rome as the focal point of unity.  I believe that is what Al Masihi is speaking to as well when he says connection with the West, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding him.
Your quite correct, I desire union with the whole Church, and the West is missing from our Church.

Er-HEM?
The Western Rite operates under the authority of Eastern Orthodox Patriarchs. There is no Patriarch of Rome.

So? There's Orthodox Churches in Rome, at least. If, say, the Romanian Met. Joseph declared himself the true Patriarch of Rome you'd complain that it was as bad as replacing Pat. Cyril Tanas.

Why should Orthodoxy be in communion with a Pope that they consider heretical? If you're converting because you agree with Papal Supremacy, just say so. This "Orthodoxy needs the RCC" stuff is just kind of a pointless diversion imo.
If a Patriarch is elected then removed despite committing no heresy, I’d get pretty upset wouldn’t you. There’s Orthodox Churches in Rome, it’s not a union with the western branch of Christianity though. I don’t know on what basis we regard it as heretical primacy was once accepted by the Eastern Church. The Orthodox even united with Rome at Florence, then broke communion again after the Islamic invasion of Constantinople.
no. The unia of Florence was rejected by the Orthodox of the East, who deposed the bishops who came back from signing it. Despite the Emperor trying to impose it, the Orthodox resisted it. Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem had already been under Islamic rule for some time, but not under Ottoman rule (the Patriarch of Jerusalem would go to submit to the Ottoman Sultan decades before the Ottomans annexed Palestine). Once the Ottomans conquered Constantinople, the Vatican lost its supporters in the East, and the Orthodox were freed from its persecution.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #220 on: October 21, 2018, 08:53:34 PM »
If deosnr matter if a handful of bishops united with Rome at Florence the point is, the Orthodox Church did officially unite with Rome in Florence.
Nope. Even those who signed made it contingent on ratification by a synod in the East. The Synod instead condemned it.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #221 on: October 21, 2018, 08:58:37 PM »
You guys dogmatized him into a global micromanaging rock star, not us.

This. I understand that many Orthodox critiques of papacy might seem unfair as in practice the pope is not charge of everything. But that doesn't make Pastor Aeternus etc. to go away. It's up to Catholics to provide either interpretation of these documents that doesn't make the pope a micromanaging rock star or either do away with these documents entirely.
preferably the latter.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #222 on: October 23, 2018, 01:09:12 AM »
I was using the Trinity as an analogy to comparing the diversity and unity in the Catholic Church.
There is no unity in the Catholic Church, but fealty.  Rome will admit heresies left and right (e.g., the American bishops that PP FI raised to the cardinalate), for the sake of an appearance of loyalty to the pope.

There is no default setting for Catholics, there’s a majority rite which is the Latin rite and a few minority ones such as the Byzantine, Syriac, and Coptic rite. All Catholics share in the same rights and spirituality as I see it.
This is not true.  The default setting, or the normative status, is Latin, both theology and law.  For instance, thought the Eastern Catholic Churches share the theology of marriage with the Orthodox Church, in which the sacrament is granted through the priest on the wedding couple rather than through the wedding couple on their promise, it is the Latin theology that dictates how the law of the Eastern Catholic Churches decides on the annulment of marriages, itself a foreign concept in Eastern theology of marriage.

Paraphrasing Pres. Obama, the pope is like: "If you like your theology, you'll be able to keep your theology."  And we all know that their theology got the same fate as their favorite health plan.

But I've spent a lot of time in my own reading on a Latin understanding of original sin and how it relates to predestination (reading it all in Latin no less), and I have to say that the position of Latin Christians across the centuries has changed.
The current Catechism of the Catholic Church cannot be reconciled with the canons of the Council of Trent on original sin.  The contemporary version is a backpedaling from Trent borrowing form the East and a de facto change of doctrine.  It cannot even be called a development of doctrine, as Rome is wont to, because the version dogmatized in Trent was a later innovation.  But the Church of Rome teaches that it has teaches what has been believed everywhere, always and by all, which is patently historically false.

Can there really be true unity among the churches without a visible head to settle disputes and call Councils?
Yes, through synods.  Visible heads call councils whose canons the afore mentioned head writes on his own ignoring the council fathers.

... some dogmas I could accept for the sake of communion with Rome.
I do not think that you can come before God with this defense for accepting what you know is not the Truth of the Christian faith.

And personally, I have always been treated well by Latin clergy.
Good for you.  My Maronite priest complained often about being subtly mocked for showing up to Latin diocesan events donning his Maronite vestments.

Of course, if a Pope becomes a heretic, he loses the seat, he's no longer part of the Church.  But what does the Church, or what ought it do, if the Pope is a heretic on an issue that has yet to be defined as such?
No course.  According to VI, no one can judge the pope whether he is or is not a heretic, only he himself can decide that, because he is the pope and no one else is.  Everyone else must submit  obsequiously to the pope, because "it is absolutely necessary for their salvation" (cf. Unam Sanctam).

Precisely. This cannot be understated. Also, being "under a Patriarch" in the EOC implies faaaaar less authority than being under the Pope in the RCC. Synodality.
Indeed, all Catholics patriarchs answer to a cardinal.  Heads of particular Churches answer to a bishop without a flock.

The bishop of Rome is not that important in everyday life!
According to your faith, you cannot hope for Salvation in eternal life without submission to him.

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Offline theistgal

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #223 on: October 23, 2018, 10:38:30 AM »
I think I’m moving towards Eastern Catholicism, specifically Melkite Catholicism (due to it having a special place in my heart). I see Eastern Catholicism as a repaired bridge between us and the West.

As a Byzantine Catholic, I won't try to proselytize or anything. Just to say I totally sympathize, and I've actually been drawn to Western Rite Orthodoxy for the same reason.

Also, I love both the Divine Liturgy of the East and the traditional Mass of the West, so any option that allows one to *legitimately* worship and, more importantly, *commune* at both is certainly attractive.

Now whether that's logical, realistic, or big-o Orthodox/big-c Catholic or not is another matter, and something we have to work out. Just wanted to say, I understand and empathize, and I'll pray that you find the right answer (and me too!).  :)
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #224 on: October 23, 2018, 05:38:25 PM »
I give up.

What's a good definition of 'ecumenical' that doesn't make the Ecumenical Patriarch either someone with universal jurisdiction, infallible, or the last remaining official of the Roman Empire (population: 1)?

It is close to your bolded text. Near perfect definition. I would say that it is someone pretending they are the " last remaining official of the Roman Empire".