Author Topic: Musings on the character of Hank Hanegraaff  (Read 1147 times)

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Offline hecma925

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Musings on the character of Hank Hanegraaff
« on: August 09, 2018, 06:59:42 PM »

One also has to avoid the temptation of responding in-kind to megachurch pastor-preneur who uploads videos to YouTube triumphantly gloating about how Hank Haanegraaf, who is battling with cancer, is a reprobate and therefore inextricably denied salvation because he had the audacity to join a church, our Eastern Orthodox church.  They did write that about the Orthodox.  Recently, John MacArthur referred to Haanegraaf’s conversion in a highly demeaning manor and then went on to say that Orthodox soteriology is to be cursed, and Mr. Haanegraaf’s response to the statement was extremely gracious, loving, educational and devoid of even the slightest whiff of anger or indignation.  I myself am not, it should be evident, as disciplined at resisting troll-bait as I should be, but watching that video last night, and hearing such a gracious and eloquent response to such abusive words about a sacrament I have received, directed towards a man who has cancer, was a profoundly edifying experience.  There are polemics, and then there is abuse which approaches the realm of hate speech.


I saw that video on Youtube.  Hank is a gentleman.

The comments are a train wreck, though.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 02:36:50 PM by Ainnir »
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2018, 09:19:34 AM »

One also has to avoid the temptation of responding in-kind to megachurch pastor-preneur who uploads videos to YouTube triumphantly gloating about how Hank Haanegraaf, who is battling with cancer, is a reprobate and therefore inextricably denied salvation because he had the audacity to join a church, our Eastern Orthodox church.  They did write that about the Orthodox.  Recently, John MacArthur referred to Haanegraaf’s conversion in a highly demeaning manor and then went on to say that Orthodox soteriology is to be cursed, and Mr. Haanegraaf’s response to the statement was extremely gracious, loving, educational and devoid of even the slightest whiff of anger or indignation.  I myself am not, it should be evident, as disciplined at resisting troll-bait as I should be, but watching that video last night, and hearing such a gracious and eloquent response to such abusive words about a sacrament I have received, directed towards a man who has cancer, was a profoundly edifying experience.  There are polemics, and then there is abuse which approaches the realm of hate speech.


I saw that video on Youtube.  Hank is a gentleman.

The comments are a train wreck, though.

I don't see Hank as a positive figure tbh, he looks lovely on air, however, there is lots and lots of complaints about him and a trail of hurt people in Hank's career. If you want to check about his unrepented misconduct during his time at CRI and BAM show check the blog ''energetic procession'', the owner and writer of the blog posted here in the forum a few times, he is a convert too and worked with Hank in Christian Research Center.
The first of a series of posts about Mr Hanegraaff.
https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2017/04/27/the-babel-answer-man/



Offline hecma925

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2018, 09:50:13 AM »
I was writing specifically about his response video.  I never heard of him or his show before his conversion was mentioned on OCnet.  Interesting article, though.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2018, 12:09:56 PM »
I was writing specifically about his response video.  I never heard of him or his show before his conversion was mentioned on OCnet.  Interesting article, though.

I heard him before his conversion talking about prosperity gospel or something like it. I am not from the US, so he is not famous in my country, and his conversion barely appeared in popular evangelical news outlets, I remember just one or two articles that didn't explain too much about it, just narrated the fact in a neutral way basically, that was surprising because I was expecting the typical anti-RC arguments thrown against the orthodox, but it didn't happen; and also a facebook publication of an anglican priest that despite having some disagreements with orthodoxy he understood the conversion and criticize modern calvinists for offering not much besides endless theology discussions.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2018, 06:39:50 PM »

One also has to avoid the temptation of responding in-kind to megachurch pastor-preneur who uploads videos to YouTube triumphantly gloating about how Hank Haanegraaf, who is battling with cancer, is a reprobate and therefore inextricably denied salvation because he had the audacity to join a church, our Eastern Orthodox church.  They did write that about the Orthodox.  Recently, John MacArthur referred to Haanegraaf’s conversion in a highly demeaning manor and then went on to say that Orthodox soteriology is to be cursed, and Mr. Haanegraaf’s response to the statement was extremely gracious, loving, educational and devoid of even the slightest whiff of anger or indignation.  I myself am not, it should be evident, as disciplined at resisting troll-bait as I should be, but watching that video last night, and hearing such a gracious and eloquent response to such abusive words about a sacrament I have received, directed towards a man who has cancer, was a profoundly edifying experience.  There are polemics, and then there is abuse which approaches the realm of hate speech.


I saw that video on Youtube.  Hank is a gentleman.

The comments are a train wreck, though.

I didn’t read the comments; I couldn’t find them.  Perhaps he agreed and blew them away.  I admit I was temptef to post a comment calling MacArthur by a string of four letter words before realizing the full implication of what Hank had said.  What a glory that he joined the Orthodox Church.

Btw amusingly enough the Answers In Genesis people have now been compiling massive apologetics material against us doubtless lifted from the dusty pages of old RC polemics, in order to attack Mr. Haanegraaf.
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Offline Acolyte4236

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2018, 06:55:28 PM »

One also has to avoid the temptation of responding in-kind to megachurch pastor-preneur who uploads videos to YouTube triumphantly gloating about how Hank Haanegraaf, who is battling with cancer, is a reprobate and therefore inextricably denied salvation because he had the audacity to join a church, our Eastern Orthodox church.  They did write that about the Orthodox.  Recently, John MacArthur referred to Haanegraaf’s conversion in a highly demeaning manor and then went on to say that Orthodox soteriology is to be cursed, and Mr. Haanegraaf’s response to the statement was extremely gracious, loving, educational and devoid of even the slightest whiff of anger or indignation.  I myself am not, it should be evident, as disciplined at resisting troll-bait as I should be, but watching that video last night, and hearing such a gracious and eloquent response to such abusive words about a sacrament I have received, directed towards a man who has cancer, was a profoundly edifying experience.  There are polemics, and then there is abuse which approaches the realm of hate speech.


I saw that video on Youtube.  Hank is a gentleman.

The comments are a train wreck, though.



I am the former CRI employee who is mentioned in the thread.

I think it would be helpful to recognize a few things. When you are watching Hank, you are watching a performance. Unless you've spent time with Hank privately without a camera on, it would be somewhat silly to infer much of anything about his character based on his performance. Sure Hank seems like a gentleman on air, but try working for him.


Second, he responded to MacArthur the way he did for a few reasons. First, he has to make MacArthur look like the bad meanie guy, because no one like a meanie. Second, Hank exhibits plenty of passive aggressive behavior. For example, he brings up that he was friends with MacArthur, that MacArthur had him to the opening of his church, etc. Well that is just given to make MacArthur look bad by association. Next Hanegraaff doesn't answer the relevant questions head on. Does Hank believe in Sola Fide or not? If he does, he would likely loose what is left of his evangelical donor base, and he knows it. This is why he gives evasive answers.


Third, he brings up theologically irrelevant things such as specific parts of Calvin's theology. Well, MacArthur isn't Calvin and isn't a representative Calvinist to begin with. And Hank offers no reason to think MacArthur thinkswhat Calvin did. and of course the topic isn't what is the topic under discussion, Sola Fide, but rather predestinarian theology. So hank just engages in a red herring.


I've written about the whole MacArthur mess here ->https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2017/11/09/how-not-to-answer-a-question-hankadox-style/


That said, that Protestants take our view of justification to be anathema is not exactly a state secret anyway. If people are offended by such claims then they either don't know anything substantial about the Reformation or haven't been paying attention to the last 500 years of historical theology.

What is worse? The guy who acts like a jerk or the guy who is a jerk but deceives you with a suntan and a smile?


Offline hecma925

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2018, 07:00:16 PM »
I completely get that what is portrayed is a character.  That's media.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2018, 04:53:46 PM »

One also has to avoid the temptation of responding in-kind to megachurch pastor-preneur who uploads videos to YouTube triumphantly gloating about how Hank Haanegraaf, who is battling with cancer, is a reprobate and therefore inextricably denied salvation because he had the audacity to join a church, our Eastern Orthodox church.  They did write that about the Orthodox.  Recently, John MacArthur referred to Haanegraaf’s conversion in a highly demeaning manor and then went on to say that Orthodox soteriology is to be cursed, and Mr. Haanegraaf’s response to the statement was extremely gracious, loving, educational and devoid of even the slightest whiff of anger or indignation.  I myself am not, it should be evident, as disciplined at resisting troll-bait as I should be, but watching that video last night, and hearing such a gracious and eloquent response to such abusive words about a sacrament I have received, directed towards a man who has cancer, was a profoundly edifying experience.  There are polemics, and then there is abuse which approaches the realm of hate speech.


I saw that video on Youtube.  Hank is a gentleman.

The comments are a train wreck, though.



I am the former CRI employee who is mentioned in the thread.

I think it would be helpful to recognize a few things. When you are watching Hank, you are watching a performance. Unless you've spent time with Hank privately without a camera on, it would be somewhat silly to infer much of anything about his character based on his performance. Sure Hank seems like a gentleman on air, but try working for him.


Second, he responded to MacArthur the way he did for a few reasons. First, he has to make MacArthur look like the bad meanie guy, because no one like a meanie. Second, Hank exhibits plenty of passive aggressive behavior. For example, he brings up that he was friends with MacArthur, that MacArthur had him to the opening of his church, etc. Well that is just given to make MacArthur look bad by association. Next Hanegraaff doesn't answer the relevant questions head on. Does Hank believe in Sola Fide or not? If he does, he would likely loose what is left of his evangelical donor base, and he knows it. This is why he gives evasive answers.


Third, he brings up theologically irrelevant things such as specific parts of Calvin's theology. Well, MacArthur isn't Calvin and isn't a representative Calvinist to begin with. And Hank offers no reason to think MacArthur thinkswhat Calvin did. and of course the topic isn't what is the topic under discussion, Sola Fide, but rather predestinarian theology. So hank just engages in a red herring.


I've written about the whole MacArthur mess here ->https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2017/11/09/how-not-to-answer-a-question-hankadox-style/


That said, that Protestants take our view of justification to be anathema is not exactly a state secret anyway. If people are offended by such claims then they either don't know anything substantial about the Reformation or haven't been paying attention to the last 500 years of historical theology.

What is worse? The guy who acts like a jerk or the guy who is a jerk but deceives you with a suntan and a smile?

Hank did correctly point the audience to the Epistle of St. James.  Salvation without works is dead.  Most Protestants are not so Sola Fide as to completely reject works; they will say good works are the response to true faith.  The ones who are utterly Sola Fide or Nuda Fide are probably not the sort who listen to Mr. Haanegraaf.

By the way, lots of people are unpleasant bosses, inadvertantly.  The relationship between manager and managed is one of the most complex psychological areas.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2018, 06:38:05 PM »
Fine. Drag me back into my life destroying addiction, why don't you? :p


You guys really need to take these accusations against Hank seriously. If even half of what Perry, the Martin family, et al. allege is true, Hank is not a good person and does not deserve to be pimped out by GoArch the way he has been (being a supremely unqualified layman who's coy about how much of a Protestant he remains would be reason enough in itself, but this just makes it worse).

A sample:

https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2017/11/02/matt-18-my-meeting-with-hank-hanegraaff/
https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2018/04/04/the-authentic-hankadox-life/
https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2018/08/02/a-divided-dividing-line-james-white-and-the-hankamess/#TheUgly/
http://articles.latimes.com/2000/apr/15/local/me-19896
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj_F_tEPVEk
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/august/6.19.html
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Offline Brilko

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2018, 07:08:33 PM »
Someone's knockin' at the door
Somebody's ringin' the bell
Someone's knockin' at the door
Somebody's ringin' the bell
Do me a favor open the door and let 'em in

He knocked on the door and it was opened to him. Whatever else Hank has done, he can’t have entered Orthodoxy for money or street cred. I don’t know the truth about him. Can’t know the truth about him. I see no need for me to worry about them. If any hierarchs of GOA are here, they might want to look into them if they’re leaning too heavily on Hank.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2018, 07:20:51 PM »
Nobody can judge the sincerity of his heart, but the trail of broken relationships that he's left behind and repeatedly refused to repent of is something no one who claims to believe in Christ should be neutral on.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Brilko

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2018, 07:38:01 PM »
His relationships are between him, God, and the other people. If he did wrong, he should repent. I can’t know who is at fault and it serves no purpose for me to judge. .

I worked for a guy who had severe mental/emotional problems. Everyone had difficulties with him. He caused chaos. The place ran smoother whenever he was away. He, foolishly, required me to do something that could have killed me. When I stopped working for him, it was a relief. I continued to wish him well. I prayed for him on occasion. May God rest his soul.

You can sympathize with me without being outraged at my poor boss whom you’ll never know. I see no reason for me to worry about Hank’s sins.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2018, 08:08:06 PM »
[Speaking in general/not directed at anyone in particular] To be fair, it's quite normal to be over-indulgent, given to exaggeration, and boastful when a 'big fish' gets reeled in by fishers of men. Consider the way Jaroslav Pelikan is lionized by Orthodox. Not saying it's right... just that it's, I dunno, inevitable?

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2018, 08:15:42 PM »
His relationships are between him, God, and the other people. If he did wrong, he should repent. I can’t know who is at fault and it serves no purpose for me to judge. .

I worked for a guy who had severe mental/emotional problems. Everyone had difficulties with him. He caused chaos. The place ran smoother whenever he was away. He, foolishly, required me to do something that could have killed me. When I stopped working for him, it was a relief. I continued to wish him well. I prayed for him on occasion. May God rest his soul.

You can sympathize with me without being outraged at my poor boss whom you’ll never know. I see no reason for me to worry about Hank’s sins.

[Speaking in general/not directed at anyone in particular] To be fair, it's quite normal to be over-indulgent, given to exaggeration, and boastful when a 'big fish' gets reeled in by fishers of men. Consider the way Jaroslav Pelikan is lionized by Orthodox. Not saying it's right... just that it's, I dunno, inevitable?

Fair enough, but when GoArch (and to a lesser extent, AFR) is parading around an accused swindler of widows and abuser of his employees and selling his theologically questionable books, it's only right to pushback against said lionization or at the very least urge caution.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 08:16:56 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2018, 08:19:22 PM »
Look, if things blow up, they blow up.  The Church still stands.  The Church has always been judged by the world because of its members.
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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2018, 08:21:10 PM »
Look, if things blow up, they blow up.  The Church still stands.  The Church has always been judged by the world because of its members.

Agreed. I'm jus sayin (well, Perry's jus sayin, he's the one who was actually there. I'm jus helpin)...
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Acolyte4236

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2018, 08:31:29 PM »

One also has to avoid the temptation of responding in-kind to megachurch pastor-preneur who uploads videos to YouTube triumphantly gloating about how Hank Haanegraaf, who is battling with cancer, is a reprobate and therefore inextricably denied salvation because he had the audacity to join a church, our Eastern Orthodox church.  They did write that about the Orthodox.  Recently, John MacArthur referred to Haanegraaf’s conversion in a highly demeaning manor and then went on to say that Orthodox soteriology is to be cursed, and Mr. Haanegraaf’s response to the statement was extremely gracious, loving, educational and devoid of even the slightest whiff of anger or indignation.  I myself am not, it should be evident, as disciplined at resisting troll-bait as I should be, but watching that video last night, and hearing such a gracious and eloquent response to such abusive words about a sacrament I have received, directed towards a man who has cancer, was a profoundly edifying experience.  There are polemics, and then there is abuse which approaches the realm of hate speech.


I saw that video on Youtube.  Hank is a gentleman.

The comments are a train wreck, though.



I am the former CRI employee who is mentioned in the thread.

I think it would be helpful to recognize a few things. When you are watching Hank, you are watching a performance. Unless you've spent time with Hank privately without a camera on, it would be somewhat silly to infer much of anything about his character based on his performance. Sure Hank seems like a gentleman on air, but try working for him.


Second, he responded to MacArthur the way he did for a few reasons. First, he has to make MacArthur look like the bad meanie guy, because no one like a meanie. Second, Hank exhibits plenty of passive aggressive behavior. For example, he brings up that he was friends with MacArthur, that MacArthur had him to the opening of his church, etc. Well that is just given to make MacArthur look bad by association. Next Hanegraaff doesn't answer the relevant questions head on. Does Hank believe in Sola Fide or not? If he does, he would likely loose what is left of his evangelical donor base, and he knows it. This is why he gives evasive answers.


Third, he brings up theologically irrelevant things such as specific parts of Calvin's theology. Well, MacArthur isn't Calvin and isn't a representative Calvinist to begin with. And Hank offers no reason to think MacArthur thinkswhat Calvin did. and of course the topic isn't what is the topic under discussion, Sola Fide, but rather predestinarian theology. So hank just engages in a red herring.


I've written about the whole MacArthur mess here ->https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2017/11/09/how-not-to-answer-a-question-hankadox-style/


That said, that Protestants take our view of justification to be anathema is not exactly a state secret anyway. If people are offended by such claims then they either don't know anything substantial about the Reformation or haven't been paying attention to the last 500 years of historical theology.

What is worse? The guy who acts like a jerk or the guy who is a jerk but deceives you with a suntan and a smile?

Hank did correctly point the audience to the Epistle of St. James.  Salvation without works is dead.  Most Protestants are not so Sola Fide as to completely reject works; they will say good works are the response to true faith.  The ones who are utterly Sola Fide or Nuda Fide are probably not the sort who listen to Mr. Haanegraaf.

By the way, lots of people are unpleasant bosses, inadvertantly.  The relationship between manager and managed is one of the most complex psychological areas.

Well everyone points to James to support their position. That he points to it is irrelevant. Protestants also think faith without works is dead. It is a standard teaching in every Protestant confession for the last 500 years. And I have no idea what you mean by "utterly Sola Fide." Sola fide entails that good works are necessary but not meritorious. That just is the classic Reformation position.

What is relevant is that the question on the table was whether Sola Fide was the Gospel or not. That is the charge that MacArthur made. So does Hank affirm or deny Sola Fide? Again, he doesn't say. Why do you suppose he doesn't give a clear affirmation or a clear denial?

Neither I nor many of the other former employees have said that Hank is an unpleasant boss. Rather our charges have been that he is:

A. Unqualified

B. Uses the ministry for personal gain (buying yourself and your kids luxury cars with ministry funds is not a mark of sacrafice.)

C. Maintains a lavish lifestyle of excess. (A 9200 sq ft mansion with 7 bathrooms is rather excessive just for starts.)
D. He makes deals with cultic of abuseive groups trading doctrinal approval in exchange for funds or speaking opportunities.

Notice please that there is nothing there about being "unpleasant."

Offline Acolyte4236

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2018, 08:34:29 PM »
[Speaking in general/not directed at anyone in particular] To be fair, it's quite normal to be over-indulgent, given to exaggeration, and boastful when a 'big fish' gets reeled in by fishers of men. Consider the way Jaroslav Pelikan is lionized by Orthodox. Not saying it's right... just that it's, I dunno, inevitable?

Well Pelikan had a long and distinguished academic career. So there was something one could learn from him. That is why reading converts to different positions who are of significant stature can be worthwhile. Hank on the other hand has less education for any given deacon in our church. He has no earned degrees in any field. He has no pastoral experience. He has no teaching experience either.

So why consider him an expert in anything? Because he can read from a teleprompter?

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2018, 08:39:29 PM »
He used to host a show on the Bible. He became aware of how misled some of the fundamentalist teachings are. In that sense, he does have some experience.
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Offline Acolyte4236

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2018, 08:39:42 PM »
Someone's knockin' at the door
Somebody's ringin' the bell
Someone's knockin' at the door
Somebody's ringin' the bell
Do me a favor open the door and let 'em in

He knocked on the door and it was opened to him. Whatever else Hank has done, he can’t have entered Orthodoxy for money or street cred. I don’t know the truth about him. Can’t know the truth about him. I see no need for me to worry about them. If any hierarchs of GOA are here, they might want to look into them if they’re leaning too heavily on Hank.


Well much the same could be said prior to his conversion. He was a professing Christian prior to being received, right? So by that reasoning he could not have done anything there for money or street cred either, right? But the evidence doesn't bear that out. Second, motivations are one thing, actions are quite another.

Second, when his sins are public acts, that fall under the scrutiny of the secular and religious press, and when our church promotes such a person, that might be a problem for everyone. Besides, you are your brothers' keeper.


What is more, suppose you can't know if anything I say or for that matter Hank says is true. Ok, fair enough.


But according to Scripture and Tradition should a new convert be made a teacher? Should they be made a teacher with no education? Should they be made a teacher on a national level?


What is more, should the Orthodox church's media platforms promote a Protestant organization, which sells Protestant books and other materials? I suppose I am rather confused. I thought the Orthodox Church was supposed to be promoting Orthodoxy, not Protestantism.


So on the prior two points alone, he has no business teaching publicly. That is of course if we are to go by scripture and tradition. If we aren't well, I don't know what else to say.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2018, 08:41:47 PM »

One also has to avoid the temptation of responding in-kind to megachurch pastor-preneur who uploads videos to YouTube triumphantly gloating about how Hank Haanegraaf, who is battling with cancer, is a reprobate and therefore inextricably denied salvation because he had the audacity to join a church, our Eastern Orthodox church.  They did write that about the Orthodox.  Recently, John MacArthur referred to Haanegraaf’s conversion in a highly demeaning manor and then went on to say that Orthodox soteriology is to be cursed, and Mr. Haanegraaf’s response to the statement was extremely gracious, loving, educational and devoid of even the slightest whiff of anger or indignation.  I myself am not, it should be evident, as disciplined at resisting troll-bait as I should be, but watching that video last night, and hearing such a gracious and eloquent response to such abusive words about a sacrament I have received, directed towards a man who has cancer, was a profoundly edifying experience.  There are polemics, and then there is abuse which approaches the realm of hate speech.


I saw that video on Youtube.  Hank is a gentleman.

The comments are a train wreck, though.



I am the former CRI employee who is mentioned in the thread.

I think it would be helpful to recognize a few things. When you are watching Hank, you are watching a performance. Unless you've spent time with Hank privately without a camera on, it would be somewhat silly to infer much of anything about his character based on his performance. Sure Hank seems like a gentleman on air, but try working for him.


Second, he responded to MacArthur the way he did for a few reasons. First, he has to make MacArthur look like the bad meanie guy, because no one like a meanie. Second, Hank exhibits plenty of passive aggressive behavior. For example, he brings up that he was friends with MacArthur, that MacArthur had him to the opening of his church, etc. Well that is just given to make MacArthur look bad by association. Next Hanegraaff doesn't answer the relevant questions head on. Does Hank believe in Sola Fide or not? If he does, he would likely loose what is left of his evangelical donor base, and he knows it. This is why he gives evasive answers.


Third, he brings up theologically irrelevant things such as specific parts of Calvin's theology. Well, MacArthur isn't Calvin and isn't a representative Calvinist to begin with. And Hank offers no reason to think MacArthur thinkswhat Calvin did. and of course the topic isn't what is the topic under discussion, Sola Fide, but rather predestinarian theology. So hank just engages in a red herring.


I've written about the whole MacArthur mess here ->https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2017/11/09/how-not-to-answer-a-question-hankadox-style/


That said, that Protestants take our view of justification to be anathema is not exactly a state secret anyway. If people are offended by such claims then they either don't know anything substantial about the Reformation or haven't been paying attention to the last 500 years of historical theology.

What is worse? The guy who acts like a jerk or the guy who is a jerk but deceives you with a suntan and a smile?

Hank did correctly point the audience to the Epistle of St. James.  Salvation without works is dead.  Most Protestants are not so Sola Fide as to completely reject works; they will say good works are the response to true faith.  The ones who are utterly Sola Fide or Nuda Fide are probably not the sort who listen to Mr. Haanegraaf.

By the way, lots of people are unpleasant bosses, inadvertantly.  The relationship between manager and managed is one of the most complex psychological areas.

Well everyone points to James to support their position. That he points to it is irrelevant. Protestants also think faith without works is dead. It is a standard teaching in every Protestant confession for the last 500 years. And I have no idea what you mean by "utterly Sola Fide." Sola fide entails that good works are necessary but not meritorious. That just is the classic Reformation position.

What is relevant is that the question on the table was whether Sola Fide was the Gospel or not. That is the charge that MacArthur made. So does Hank affirm or deny Sola Fide? Again, he doesn't say. Why do you suppose he doesn't give a clear affirmation or a clear denial?

Neither I nor many of the other former employees have said that Hank is an unpleasant boss. Rather our charges have been that he is:

A. Unqualified

B. Uses the ministry for personal gain (buying yourself and your kids luxury cars with ministry funds is not a mark of sacrafice.)

C. Maintains a lavish lifestyle of excess. (A 9200 sq ft mansion with 7 bathrooms is rather excessive just for starts.)
D. He makes deals with cultic of abuseive groups trading doctrinal approval in exchange for funds or speaking opportunities.

Notice please that there is nothing there about being "unpleasant."

Just to clarify, by "abuse," I was thinking of the accounts you related of Hank screaming at people and firing research assistants for making him look uninformed.

I do think that his lavish lifestyle and (it seems to me) underhanded way he made himself Dr. Martin's "successor" does qualify as a swindling of widows (both Darlene Martin and the old ladies who give money to CRI).
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2018, 08:44:24 PM »
He used to host a show on the Bible. He became aware of how misled some of the fundamentalist teachings are. In that sense, he does have some experience.

In that sense, and only that sense. He has no formal training and others have pointed out how shallow his knowledge is in a lot of ways. I wouldn't be caught dead trying to take a position like Hank's (he still hosts "the Bible Answer Man") without at least a bachelor's degree in a relevant field.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 08:45:07 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Acolyte4236

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2018, 08:50:41 PM »
He used to host a show on the Bible. He became aware of how misled some of the fundamentalist teachings are. In that sense, he does have some experience.

He hosted a show where he reads from a teleprompter.

2nd on that basis he has no more expertise than many other Protestants.

3rd many Protestant pastors who have undergraduate degrees and seminary degrees and actual pastoral experience give up their positions and become laymen. They don't get made instant national teachers just because they held a position.

4. he is a new convert and on that basis alone shouldn't be teaching nationally over our media platforms.


What is more, he was most likely going to join Witness Lee's Local Church sect in 2015. See here ->https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2018/04/04/the-authentic-hankadox-life/
Then something happened. He has a book set to come out in 2015 that looks like it was a Local Church manifesto. About that time according to his own account he started looking into Orthodoxy. So the matter is more complex. It was the Local Church's doctrine of "blending" with the divine essence that got him to look at theosis.

What is more, he is adapting that book as his Orthodox conversion book to publish soon. Given his poor theological judgement who knows what will be in that book.

Lastly, people should be aware of converts like Fr. John Braun and Fr. Jack Sparks, both of whom (among others) saw the Local Church and Witness Lee as not only heretical (Sabellian among other heresies) but very dangerous and deceptive. Their judgement has not changed. It was the Local Church that Hank refers to as "Chinese Christians" in his conversion account. Given that Paul Young who is the chief operating officer of CRI is a member of the Local Church and that Hank defended the Local Church in 2011 all the way to the Supreme Court when the Local Church sued a Christian publisher it should be very clear that the matter is far more complicated and there is a lot more at stake.




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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2018, 09:17:08 PM »
He used to host a show on the Bible. He became aware of how misled some of the fundamentalist teachings are. In that sense, he does have some experience.

He hosted a show where he reads from a teleprompter.

2nd on that basis he has no more expertise than many other Protestants.

3rd many Protestant pastors who have undergraduate degrees and seminary degrees and actual pastoral experience give up their positions and become laymen. They don't get made instant national teachers just because they held a position.

4. he is a new convert and on that basis alone shouldn't be teaching nationally over our media platforms.


What is more, he was most likely going to join Witness Lee's Local Church sect in 2015. See here ->https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2018/04/04/the-authentic-hankadox-life/
Then something happened. He has a book set to come out in 2015 that looks like it was a Local Church manifesto. About that time according to his own account he started looking into Orthodoxy. So the matter is more complex. It was the Local Church's doctrine of "blending" with the divine essence that got him to look at theosis.

What is more, he is adapting that book as his Orthodox conversion book to publish soon. Given his poor theological judgement who knows what will be in that book.

Lastly, people should be aware of converts like Fr. John Braun and Fr. Jack Sparks, both of whom (among others) saw the Local Church and Witness Lee as not only heretical (Sabellian among other heresies) but very dangerous and deceptive. Their judgement has not changed. It was the Local Church that Hank refers to as "Chinese Christians" in his conversion account. Given that Paul Young who is the chief operating officer of CRI is a member of the Local Church and that Hank defended the Local Church in 2011 all the way to the Supreme Court when the Local Church sued a Christian publisher it should be very clear that the matter is far more complicated and there is a lot more at stake.

Uh, he used to take calls from the public. Don't think he read from a teleprompter. I used to listen to that show, when I had a late-night job and there was nothing else to do.

He has experience debating Protestants who make bad use of plenty of Bible verses.

Who cares if he once considered joining Watchman Nee Presbyterianism?

He didn't.
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Offline Brilko

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2018, 10:01:39 PM »
Someone's knockin' at the door
Somebody's ringin' the bell
Someone's knockin' at the door
Somebody's ringin' the bell
Do me a favor open the door and let 'em in

He knocked on the door and it was opened to him. Whatever else Hank has done, he can’t have entered Orthodoxy for money or street cred. I don’t know the truth about him. Can’t know the truth about him. I see no need for me to worry about them. If any hierarchs of GOA are here, they might want to look into them if they’re leaning too heavily on Hank.


Well much the same could be said prior to his conversion. He was a professing Christian prior to being received, right? So by that reasoning he could not have done anything there for money or street cred either, right? But the evidence doesn't bear that out. Second, motivations are one thing, actions are quite another.
Joining the Orthodox church must have lost him a substantial portion of his audience. He had to have known that it would. So he can’t possibly have gone Orthodox for money. He might very well have taken over CRI for money.

Quote
Second, when his sins are public acts, that fall under the scrutiny of the secular and religious press, and when our church promotes such a person, that might be a problem for everyone. Besides, you are your brothers' keeper.
I have no influence over the GOA. I promise not to murder anyone. If I see someone dying by the side of the road, I promise to stop and help.

Quote
What is more, suppose you can't know if anything I say or for that matter Hank says is true. Ok, fair enough.


But according to Scripture and Tradition should a new convert be made a teacher? Should they be made a teacher with no education? Should they be made a teacher on a national level?
No. I wouldn’t make him a teacher of Orthodoxy.

Quote
What is more, should the Orthodox church's media platforms promote a Protestant organization, which sells Protestant books and other materials? I suppose I am rather confused. I thought the Orthodox Church was supposed to be promoting Orthodoxy, not Protestantism.
I wouldn’t do that, either. But it isn’t up to me.

Quote
So on the prior two points alone, he has no business teaching publicly. That is of course if we are to go by scripture and tradition. If we aren't well, I don't know what else to say.
I don’t know what he’s teaching. I can’t make him stop teaching. The GOA should look at what he’s teaching if they’re going to endorse it.

I’m not in the GOA. I’m not even Orthodox. I’m a crippled guy sitting at home. If you want a word from a poorthodox hermit, I might be able to help you. But if I gave you a word, would you do it?

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2018, 10:09:59 PM »
He used to host a show on the Bible. He became aware of how misled some of the fundamentalist teachings are. In that sense, he does have some experience.

He hosted a show where he reads from a teleprompter.

2nd on that basis he has no more expertise than many other Protestants.

3rd many Protestant pastors who have undergraduate degrees and seminary degrees and actual pastoral experience give up their positions and become laymen. They don't get made instant national teachers just because they held a position.

4. he is a new convert and on that basis alone shouldn't be teaching nationally over our media platforms.


What is more, he was most likely going to join Witness Lee's Local Church sect in 2015. See here ->https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2018/04/04/the-authentic-hankadox-life/
Then something happened. He has a book set to come out in 2015 that looks like it was a Local Church manifesto. About that time according to his own account he started looking into Orthodoxy. So the matter is more complex. It was the Local Church's doctrine of "blending" with the divine essence that got him to look at theosis.

What is more, he is adapting that book as his Orthodox conversion book to publish soon. Given his poor theological judgement who knows what will be in that book.

Lastly, people should be aware of converts like Fr. John Braun and Fr. Jack Sparks, both of whom (among others) saw the Local Church and Witness Lee as not only heretical (Sabellian among other heresies) but very dangerous and deceptive. Their judgement has not changed. It was the Local Church that Hank refers to as "Chinese Christians" in his conversion account. Given that Paul Young who is the chief operating officer of CRI is a member of the Local Church and that Hank defended the Local Church in 2011 all the way to the Supreme Court when the Local Church sued a Christian publisher it should be very clear that the matter is far more complicated and there is a lot more at stake.

Uh, he used to take calls from the public. Don't think he read from a teleprompter. I used to listen to that show, when I had a late-night job and there was nothing else to do.

Acolyte (Perry Robinson) worked on the show with him for years. Hank had a computer that fed him lines from his research assistants, dressed up to make it look like he was getting it off the top of his head to people who can't see him over the radio. He would also openly plagiarize from books while on the air: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9-YVFq9sWI

There's also his longstanding plagiarism of D. James Kennedy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7aGeWZ7rTM

Who cares if he once considered joining Watchman Nee Presbyterianism?

He didn't.

I don't know about Nee, specifically. But his successor Witness Lee taught that Christ is the Father. The Local Church also has a reputation for highly abusive control over its members. But Hank doesn't seem to care, instead he praises them and describes them as "Chinese Christians" with no elaboration.

It's not just that he "considered joining them," he reversed CRI's longstanding labeling of them as a cult with no evidence of a change in their teachings/behavior, then began accepting money from the Local Church and giving work to a prominent member (Paul Young, who is still on the board of the Ostensibly Christian Research Institute, Hanegraaff is also a co-owners of Young's mansion). Not proof of bribery or anything like that, but darn suggestive.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 10:15:56 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2018, 10:36:32 PM »
Shouldn't you all be saying "the local church"?
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Offline Acolyte4236

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2018, 03:23:46 AM »
He used to host a show on the Bible. He became aware of how misled some of the fundamentalist teachings are. In that sense, he does have some experience.

He hosted a show where he reads from a teleprompter.

2nd on that basis he has no more expertise than many other Protestants.

3rd many Protestant pastors who have undergraduate degrees and seminary degrees and actual pastoral experience give up their positions and become laymen. They don't get made instant national teachers just because they held a position.

4. he is a new convert and on that basis alone shouldn't be teaching nationally over our media platforms.


What is more, he was most likely going to join Witness Lee's Local Church sect in 2015. See here ->https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2018/04/04/the-authentic-hankadox-life/
Then something happened. He has a book set to come out in 2015 that looks like it was a Local Church manifesto. About that time according to his own account he started looking into Orthodoxy. So the matter is more complex. It was the Local Church's doctrine of "blending" with the divine essence that got him to look at theosis.

What is more, he is adapting that book as his Orthodox conversion book to publish soon. Given his poor theological judgement who knows what will be in that book.

Lastly, people should be aware of converts like Fr. John Braun and Fr. Jack Sparks, both of whom (among others) saw the Local Church and Witness Lee as not only heretical (Sabellian among other heresies) but very dangerous and deceptive. Their judgement has not changed. It was the Local Church that Hank refers to as "Chinese Christians" in his conversion account. Given that Paul Young who is the chief operating officer of CRI is a member of the Local Church and that Hank defended the Local Church in 2011 all the way to the Supreme Court when the Local Church sued a Christian publisher it should be very clear that the matter is far more complicated and there is a lot more at stake.

Uh, he used to take calls from the public. Don't think he read from a teleprompter. I used to listen to that show, when I had a late-night job and there was nothing else to do.

He has experience debating Protestants who make bad use of plenty of Bible verses.

Who cares if he once considered joining Watchman Nee Presbyterianism?

He didn't.

Uh, the Local Church is not anything close to Presbyterianism.

And yeah, he reads from prepared answers or sections from other people's books without giving credit, thereby giving the impression that he has expertise, when he doesn't. There is a word for that. Fraud.

Here is just one sample.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9-YVFq9sWI&t=3s


Besides, when he has it on video you can see him read off the answers. He's no expert. Its a sham.

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2018, 03:36:00 AM »
Not when I heard him on the radio. But I give up.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2018, 10:44:50 AM »
Someone's knockin' at the door
Somebody's ringin' the bell
Someone's knockin' at the door
Somebody's ringin' the bell
Do me a favor open the door and let 'em in

He knocked on the door and it was opened to him. Whatever else Hank has done, he can’t have entered Orthodoxy for money or street cred. I don’t know the truth about him. Can’t know the truth about him. I see no need for me to worry about them. If any hierarchs of GOA are here, they might want to look into them if they’re leaning too heavily on Hank.


Well much the same could be said prior to his conversion. He was a professing Christian prior to being received, right? So by that reasoning he could not have done anything there for money or street cred either, right? But the evidence doesn't bear that out. Second, motivations are one thing, actions are quite another.

Second, when his sins are public acts, that fall under the scrutiny of the secular and religious press, and when our church promotes such a person, that might be a problem for everyone. Besides, you are your brothers' keeper.


What is more, suppose you can't know if anything I say or for that matter Hank says is true. Ok, fair enough.


But according to Scripture and Tradition should a new convert be made a teacher? Should they be made a teacher with no education? Should they be made a teacher on a national level?


What is more, should the Orthodox church's media platforms promote a Protestant organization, which sells Protestant books and other materials? I suppose I am rather confused. I thought the Orthodox Church was supposed to be promoting Orthodoxy, not Protestantism.


So on the prior two points alone, he has no business teaching publicly. That is of course if we are to go by scripture and tradition. If we aren't well, I don't know what else to say.

St. Paul went from persecuting Christians to being one of the most important apostles in the immediate aftermath of his reception.   Other similiar cases come to mind.  In the case of Mr. Haanegraaf, he had the very significant advantage of actually being a Christian and one who underwent a full catechumenate.  His status is approved by the bishops, in, I would add, an Orthodox jurisidiction not particularly well known for evangelism outside of its ethnic group.

What is more, one cannot characterise his action as a business move, considering the extent to which he has lost affiliates, subscribers, et cetera.  We are talking about a man dying of cancer who came home to Orthodoxy and then received a backlash from the Fundamentalists which could be characterized as demonic.

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Offline Acolyte4236

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2018, 12:51:16 PM »
Not when I heard him on the radio. But I give up.

And how could you tell?

I sat in the BAM studio for a year with him and others. I saw it firsthand as have others.

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2018, 01:29:41 PM »
Alpha,

1.   Hank is not St. Paul or anything analogous to him.
2.   St. Paul didn’t turn from a life of graft and a lavish lifestyle and then convert while continuing to fleece people to support that lifestyle.  So Hank and Paul are not relevantly similar here.

I spent well over a decade in GOARCH. Do you want to talk about the average catechumenate in GOARCH? It consists of six weeks of one hour class discussions on the most basic level.

As far as his move not being motivated by business well there are some things to consider here.
First, did he announce his conversion? Did he have a press release? Is there any evidence that he planned to make this public? The answer to all of those questions is “no.”
Hanegraaff has taken great pains in the past to make his ecclesiastical affiliations either secret or so nebulous as to be meaningless.

Second, if financial concerns are not in his mind, why in less than three months did he move his show to OCN? Why is he promoting for sale Protestant works to Orthodox audiences if he is concerned about the true faith and not monetary concerns?

Why if he was so concerned about the true Faith did it take him about eight months to change the CRI doctrinal statement and why did he change it into another Protestant doctrinal statement?
And why if he is so concerned about the true faith does he live in a 3 million dollar mansion? Why is he a member of a country club whose’ entrance fee is $65,000? What is the difference between him and Benny Hinn or Joel Osteen?  The only difference I can see is that Hank is a better liar.

Third, you are making this a zero sum game as if it is one or the other. Often immoral persons bifurcate their thinking. People can walk and chew gum at the same time.
As to his cancer, well let us talk about that for a moment. If he is dying and his cancer is so serious why at 69 years old does he remain as a public figure? Why does he continue to be the president of CRI if as you say he is dying of cancer? If he is a public figure then he is open to public criticism. If he retires from public life then that is another matter. Either the cancer is serious enough that he shouldn’t be a public figure or it isn’t and therefore provides him with nothing of exculpatory value. Besides, having cancer doesn’t remove guilt from defrauding people, especially when he continues to do so.

What is more, Hanegraaff’s job requires him to criticize others on exactly the same criteria that I am criticizing him. If he doesn’t want to be criticized then he should stop doing it to others.
And what is more, he sued Bill Alnor, another former employee while Bill was dying of cancer. Hank had no mercy on Bill. Hank violated scriptural prohibitions on suing other Christians. Hank had no problem violating scripture and decency just to silence a critic. And he has never apologized.
 
What is more, if Hank is dying of cancer, now would be the time to reconcile with the many people he has harmed. We have tried so many times to do what is biblical and to try and reconcile but Hank consistently refuses. And this includes him showing up at my parish last October ( https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2017/11/02/matt-18-my-meeting-with-hank-hanegraaff/)
We offered to fly out at our own expense to meet with him to reconcile. This included myself, Jill Martin and Craig Hawkins, Martin’s right hand. He refused. So he is impenitent. We tried to arrange reconciliation both before and after his reception. And dozens of people have confronted him both individually and collectively over nearly thirty years. He refuses every times and just accuses us of slander. So by all appearances, Hank is unwilling to abide by very clear Scripture and Tradition and he is unconcerned about dying without reconciling with his brothers and sisters.

As far as EP, I have never focused on "positive aspects of people" and neither have any of the other contributors. EP is a blog about historical and philosophical theology. It is not about being nice or polite to people or making people feel good. I hear this quite often though. So it is ok when I stick it to the Protestants and the Catholics, but God forbid I point out a fox in our own hen house. (And people wonder how clerical sex abuse goes unspoken for so long.)

To be honest, I am not a little tired of people treating me and the other former employees as the bad guy and giving Hank an unquestioning pass simply because he got chrismated. I’ve been in the church nearly twenty years. I have worked festivals, festival tours, done radio interviews for the church, taught Sunday school, opened my home to numerous church functions. I have given of my own time and treasure and have been happy to do so. I have had a good report for nearly twenty years. But apparently my word is garbage because I am not nice or polite.

I would suggest taking a moment to think about whether and how much truth matters in comparison to feeling good. People just want to feel good about their side. It is a form of pride. And I am the bad guy for sounding the alarm.

Besides, if you read the blog you’d know that I did the last post on Hank weeks ago.

As far as the backlash of fundamentalists, well remember those were his constituents. That is his donor base. He had to know there would be consequences for his actions. That is probably why he had no public announcement of his chrismation. Someone took a picture and put it on the internet and he was outed.

And excuse me if I don’t feel sorry that Hank lost 90% of his radio coverage. Again, I am not the one living in a 9200 sq ft 3 million dollar mansion with a walk out golf course. Boo hoo for Hank because he has a 12k a month house payment. This is a minister of the gospel? Seriously? Why is it wrong when Benny Hinn and Joel Osteen fleece Christians for a lavish lifestyle but not when Hank does it?

Don’t you get it? He is doing the same exact thing to the Orthodox church that he did to the Protestants. He is using the church to funnel cash to support his lavish lifestyle. It is all about the business and keeping it afloat. That is why the show is constant product promotion rather than about apologetics.

And none of that touches the issues with the Local Church. Just think about this. He defends and promotes on his show a sect that believes not only a form of modalism, but that it alone is the true church. Furthermore that their founder was a prophet type figure to restore Christianity to the entire planet after a complete apostasy. And he does this using the Orthodox Church's media platforms. And on top of that, we don't even charge him for the use of our airwaves! He gets it free!

Fr. Sparks is rolling in his grave.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 01:31:00 PM by Acolyte4236 »

Offline biro

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaff
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2018, 01:33:14 PM »
I went through a cathechumenate in the GOAA in three years.
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hanegraaff
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2018, 03:49:40 PM »
...

Some of your points are valid concerns.  Those points are lost in your very palpable disgust for this guy, however.  It's a tall order to ask everyone to wade through that to get to the core issues.  I think if you focused on paring the excess down, your points and concerns might be better-received.

It is a valid concern, for example, if a brand new convert is given teaching authority.  It is a valid concern if that person uses that authority to  actively promote a truly heretical sect.  Impure motives are also a valid concern, but it's not our concern unless it's our motives in question, so this one is sort of canceled out.

Quote
Don’t you get it? He is doing the same exact thing to the Orthodox church that he did to the Protestants. He is using the church to funnel cash to support his lavish lifestyle. It is all about the business and keeping it afloat. That is why the show is constant product promotion rather than about apologetics.
If this is true, when all is said and done, he won't have hurt the Church much at all, but he'll have hurt himself tremendously.  Perhaps praying for him is the best course of action.  Another would to be to write the radio station with your concerns and pray they are given discernment (according to God's wisdom, not our own).  Otherwise, there's not much you can do, and while that feeling is frustratingly familiar to me, coping with it by trying to stir up laypeople against him isn't the best strategy, either practically or spiritually.   :-\
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Brilko

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaf
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2018, 04:43:31 PM »

What is more, if Hank is dying of cancer, now would be the time to reconcile with the many people he has harmed. We have tried so many times to do what is biblical and to try and reconcile but Hank consistently refuses. And this includes him showing up at my parish last October ( https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2017/11/02/matt-18-my-meeting-with-hank-hanegraaff/)
We offered to fly out at our own expense to meet with him to reconcile. This included myself, Jill Martin and Craig Hawkins, Martin’s right hand. He refused. So he is impenitent. We tried to arrange reconciliation both before and after his reception. And dozens of people have confronted him both individually and collectively over nearly thirty years. He refuses every times and just accuses us of slander. So by all appearances, Hank is unwilling to abide by very clear Scripture and Tradition and he is unconcerned about dying without reconciling with his brothers and sisters.
Hopefully, you are praying for Hank Hanegraaff.

Quote
To be honest, I am not a little tired of people treating me and the other former employees as the bad guy and giving Hank an unquestioning pass simply because he got chrismated. I’ve been in the church nearly twenty years. I have worked festivals, festival tours, done radio interviews for the church, taught Sunday school, opened my home to numerous church functions. I have given of my own time and treasure and have been happy to do so. I have had a good report for nearly twenty years. But apparently my word is garbage because I am not nice or polite.

I would suggest taking a moment to think about whether and how much truth matters in comparison to feeling good. People just want to feel good about their side. It is a form of pride. And I am the bad guy for sounding the alarm.

Beyond a certain benevolence for all people, I don’t care about Hank Hanegraaff. I don’t have time and sufficient to my life are the problems thereof. You’re here, he’s not, so I can spare more caring for you and I’m not sure that your endeavor is healthy for you.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hanegraaff
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2018, 05:50:37 PM »
...

Some of your points are valid concerns.  Those points are lost in your very palpable disgust for this guy, however.  It's a tall order to ask everyone to wade through that to get to the core issues.  I think if you focused on paring the excess down, your points and concerns might be better-received.

There's a lot of filth that needs sorting through in this case. If he stuck to bullet points and only bullet points, then he'd be hounded to elaborate on every little one of them fifteen times a day. It's a Catch-22.

It is a valid concern, for example, if a brand new convert is given teaching authority.  It is a valid concern if that person uses that authority to  actively promote a truly heretical sect.  Impure motives are also a valid concern, but it's not our concern unless it's our motives in question, so this one is sort of canceled out.

Quote
Don’t you get it? He is doing the same exact thing to the Orthodox church that he did to the Protestants. He is using the church to funnel cash to support his lavish lifestyle. It is all about the business and keeping it afloat. That is why the show is constant product promotion rather than about apologetics.
If this is true, when all is said and done, he won't have hurt the Church much at all, but he'll have hurt himself tremendously.  Perhaps praying for him is the best course of action.  Another would to be to write the radio station with your concerns and pray they are given discernment (according to God's wisdom, not our own).  Otherwise, there's not much you can do, and while that feeling is frustratingly familiar to me, coping with it by trying to stir up laypeople against him isn't the best strategy, either practically or spiritually.   :-\

I see what you're saying, but given just how big name a figure Hank is and continues to try and make himself, and given that he's repeatedly spurned the Scriptural instructions on conflict resolution, it's important to mark him out publicly for the protection of those laypeople (Romans 16:17).

If the unrepentant of this kind are to "be unto you as a heathen and a tax collector," then it's dishonest for those in the know to just sit idly by while the same hero-worship mammon machine that does so much damage in every other corner of Christianity continues to promote that "heathen" as some great man of faith who can help feed the flock.
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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hanegraaff
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2018, 06:57:57 PM »
I'm going to go ahead and ask the important question that hasn't yet been asked:

Does his bishop know about these charges?
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Offline biro

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hanegraaff
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2018, 07:00:19 PM »
...

Some of your points are valid concerns.  Those points are lost in your very palpable disgust for this guy, however.  It's a tall order to ask everyone to wade through that to get to the core issues.  I think if you focused on paring the excess down, your points and concerns might be better-received.

It is a valid concern, for example, if a brand new convert is given teaching authority.  It is a valid concern if that person uses that authority to  actively promote a truly heretical sect.  Impure motives are also a valid concern, but it's not our concern unless it's our motives in question, so this one is sort of canceled out.

Quote
Don’t you get it? He is doing the same exact thing to the Orthodox church that he did to the Protestants. He is using the church to funnel cash to support his lavish lifestyle. It is all about the business and keeping it afloat. That is why the show is constant product promotion rather than about apologetics.
If this is true, when all is said and done, he won't have hurt the Church much at all, but he'll have hurt himself tremendously.  Perhaps praying for him is the best course of action.  Another would to be to write the radio station with your concerns and pray they are given discernment (according to God's wisdom, not our own).  Otherwise, there's not much you can do, and while that feeling is frustratingly familiar to me, coping with it by trying to stir up laypeople against him isn't the best strategy, either practically or spiritually.   :-\

Very well put.
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Offline Acolyte4236

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hannegraaff
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2018, 08:06:51 PM »
I went through a cathechumenate in the GOAA in three years.

And you think that is average?

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Re: Musings on the character of Hank Hanegraaff
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2018, 08:08:09 PM »
People in my parish seem to average about one year.

I've certainly never seen a few weeks, like you say.
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Offline Acolyte4236

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hanegraaff
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2018, 08:08:17 PM »
I'm going to go ahead and ask the important question that hasn't yet been asked:

Does his bishop know about these charges?

I do not know. I do know his priest knew. I know that his priest knew almost two years prior and did nothing. And his priest continues to ignore attempts to dialog and resolve the matters. I went to them privately both before and after his was received.

Offline Acolyte4236

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Re: Musings on the character of Hank Hanegraaff
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2018, 08:09:50 PM »
People in my parish seem to average about one year.

I've certainly never seen a few weeks, like you say.

And what do they receive for instruction? Is the instruction adequate to speak on a national platform as a theologian and philosopher? Uh, no.  They are usually told to read Ware's book or something similar. So even if the length of time is a year, two years or 3, the instruction tends to be quite lax.

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Re: Musings on the character of Hank Hanegraaff
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2018, 08:15:28 PM »
How exactly would you know anything about my parish? Get off this "probably" garbage.

My priest made me read things by Schmemann, Ware, Harakas (whom I've seen, he served liturgy at our parish several times) and a number of others.

I've seen your videos. You look bitter.
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Offline Acolyte4236

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Re: Musings in the character of Hank Hanegraaff
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2018, 08:19:49 PM »
Ah, so if there is say a pedophile or a thief in the church, while we might have valid concerns, they might be "cancelled out" by what exactly? Fraud, deception, abuse, naw, they can be cancelled out! Uh, I don't think so.

I am not asking anyone here to do much of anything. I was tagged so I came to explain myself and the situation.

As far as personal disgust, I'd refrain from imputing feelings to me that you can't possibly know. That said, Hank is not my BFF to be sure. I do think Hank is a dangerous con man.

I am or rather was concerned for the welfare of the church. If or rather when there is a scandal that will harm the church, it will harm the faith of many others. He's got a number of former employees he's turned to atheism for example. Last I checked Jesus has something to say about such things regarding millstones and necks.

That said, think what you like. I don't care anymore. Why should I when the clergy don't care for scripture and tradition? I just think it is absolutely stupid to have someone promote Protestantism in our church using our media platforms. What could possibly be dumber? And if that is acceptable, why did I bother becoming Orthodox at all?

I was morally required to follow biblical protocols and I did. I was required to make people aware and warn them, and I did. If people want to think Hank is some great theologian or authority it is because they lack discernment and are easily dupped. Apparently I am the only person who could use Google and the Waybackmachine.

As far as paring everything down, this entire mess has been going on for thirty years. There is a lot to it and there are many figures involved. I did my best to catalog everything and lay it all out. But think what you like.

Again, I am not the one living in a 3 million dollar mansion living like Benny Hinn. 

Offline Acolyte4236

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Re: Musings on the character of Hank Hanegraaff
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2018, 08:22:20 PM »
How exactly would you know anything about my parish? Get off this "probably" garbage.

My priest made me read things by Schmemann, Ware, Harakas (whom I've seen, he served liturgy at our parish several times) and a number of others.

I've seen your videos. You look bitter.

Probability isn't garbage. Its a mode of reasoning.

Gee, why would I be bitter? What could Hank have done to possibly make me bitter? Yeah, I am so bitter I just walked away from all this. Think what you like. I don't care anymore.

Besides, even if it were so, that's just an ad hominem fallacy. You're attacking me personally and not dealing with the arguments and evidence.

And again, none of those authors even if Hank had all of them would hardly be sufficient to qualify him for the teaching position he occupies.