Author Topic: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?  (Read 1081 times)

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Offline juliogb

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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2018, 10:54:34 PM »
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Jay Dyer, the guy who blocks anyone who disagrees with him even slightly on twitter or attempts to refute him. I’m very well aware of Jay Dyer and his antics.

His Paul Washer impersonation is great.

Offline Xavier

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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2018, 09:14:28 AM »
Quote from: Wandile
Great post all round Xavier ;)

Thanks. :)

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so Xavier when we encounter God in activity, we Encounter Gods essence for Gods energies/operations are simply God in activity?

Yes, without doubt. That's why the West has ever spoken of the importance of being transformed into the Image of the Beloved Himself, without implying the operations somehow impede or limit this. The Operations are God in action. St. Clare of Assisi says, “We become what we love and who we love shapes what we become. If we love things, we become a thing. If we love nothing, we become nothing. Imitation is not a literal mimicking of Christ, rather it means becoming the Image of the Beloved, an image disclosed through transformation. This means we are to become vessels of God's compassionate love for others.”

Theosis is best understood by analogy. I know some older Catholic writers consider Abp. Palamas to have erred on the question, but he uses the rays of the sun analogy to explain it. The sun is God in His essence, the rays of that sun are the light of grace shining on creatures. Some of these texts only recently came to light and I could be mistaken here, but the analogy given seems perfectly in accord with the Thomistic doctrine. The Catechism of Trent says "iron when acted on by fire becomes inflamed and while it is substantially the same seems changed into fire, a different substance; so likewise the blessed, who are admitted into the glory of heaven and burn with a love of God, are so affected that, without ceasing to be what they are, they may be said with truth to differ more from those still on earth than red hot iron differs from itself when cold." This is the common Thomistic analogy, even more suited in my opinion, since light pertains to enlightenment of the mind, and fire according to mystics signifies the burning love in our hearts, by which the Holy Spirit and the Soul become one, and we attain to divine union. Since love is the primary means by which union with the Divinity is to be sought even more than knowledge, as St. Paul says, the fire analogy seems better. But the sun and its rays analogy is also fine, and doesn't seem to me to be an irreconciliable contradiction.

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To this I would say yes but we only finitely participate in it. If we could do it infinitely we would become God. For me this explains how we can partake of the divine nature and in heaven see God as he is yet still not become him on account of our finititude.

Agreed. Our participation is finite and proportioned to our merits. Great Saints partake more fully of the Divine Nature, which by Itself is Infinite, but which is finitely participated in by different creatures. The holiest of creatures, the Mother of God, exemplar of theosis and divine union, Whom the Saints say is by grace all that God is by Nature, still falls short of the infinite perfection and absolute simplicity of the divine essence. Mary, like all the Saints, participates finitely in the divine essence, although immeasurably beyond all others. We render to the Divine Essence itself the worship of adoration, to Mary the veneration of hyperdulia and dulia to the other Saints. Creatures only partake of the divine Essence to the extent they are capable of doing so.

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This is how I can believe grace/energies are divine and God; Thus God himself truly interacting with us. If it is God in activity then he is essentially present for God cannot be absent from his essence (His Godness). I think the biggest proof of this is the Eucharist. Would you agree?

Well, the Eucharist of course is God in very Essence and Substance, thus we adore the Eucharist as true God. But when God dwells in you and me, imo He is present there as the sun is present on the plants to which it gives light and warmth, as fire is present in the objects and articles it kindles and inflames. The CE mentions the Tridentine decree on justification: "the Holy Spirit is our holiness, not by the holiness by which He Himself is holy, but by that holiness by which He makes us holy. He is not, therefore, the causa formalis, but merely the causa efficiens, of our holiness." Christ, the God-Man, and Son of God by nature, Who makes us true sons of God but by grace and adoption, also shows us how the union is effected. Unlike Christ in His humanity, the Divinity is communicated to us by grace only to the extent we creatures are capable of receiving it. But we become christs and gods by grace, in such a way that our humanity is united with the One Divinity inseparably forevermore in all who attain perfect theosis. St. Paul says the soul united to God becomes one spirit (1 Cor 6:17).

Vanhyo, the glory of God will dwell in His Saints in Heaven, but not in the same way as it does in Christ, Who has been Eternally One with His Father and His Holy Spirit and in Majesty and Glory. Do we adore the Saints? The text you cite says the glory God the Father has communicated to His Son in eternity will be given to the Apostles and other Saints as much as they, being mere creatures, can receive it. This is how St. Athanasius exegetes that passage.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 09:20:11 AM by Xavier »
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline noahzarc1

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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2018, 11:54:08 AM »
Jay Dyer, the guy who blocks anyone who disagrees with him even slightly on twitter or attempts to refute him. I’m very well aware of Jay Dyer and his antics.

Yes, because no Catholic forum or Facebook page will ban anyone who even remotely disagrees with their brand of Catholicism. Roman Catholics such as yourself should be very thankful the Orthodox not only allow you on their forum but allow you to start and post to threads. From my estimation, this is called being charitable and allowing conversation between east and west. There are some Catholic forums and Facebook pages out there, that if they even snif someone hints at any Eastern theology, they will immediately be labeled as "schismatic" and summarily ban them, often without warning. What does this solve? It is shocking how many "traditionalists" even with in the west are completely ignorant of the Eastern Rites (23 Sui Iuris Churches) in communion with Rome. Some even label as "Eastern Schismatics" Eastern Rite Catholics who actually are the Catholic Church.

Anyway, Jay Dyer is not the authority for the church and therefore, he does not define the entire Orthodox Church and if he bans people like yourself, be thankful you still have a forum where you can come and oppose others and be welcomed.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 11:55:03 AM by noahzarc1 »

Offline noahzarc1

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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2018, 12:21:54 PM »
The idea that the fathers always taught simplicity in the Thomistic sense is laughable. Even Scotus' understanding of divine simplicity differs from Thomas'. St. Basil's treatment of the subject is also at odds with the Thomistic understanding, and in general, the Greek fathers did not adhere to the Thomistic understanding.

This begs the question. Secondly it’s dodging the main question of the thread. What is agreed is that divine simplicity denies composition in God. The essence/energies distinction as understood by palamism has been said by mainly to creat composition. How do EO respond to this?

Hold on Wandile. Your entire op begged the question. Cavaradossi responded to the charge.  You then accuse Cavaradossi of begging the question in your OP. It appears you do not know what it means to beg the question. Begging the question, i.e. assuming the initial point, is a logical fallacy in which someone assumes the statement under examination to be true. Therefore, you used a premise to support itself and asked, "how do the E.O. respond?"

You asked, "How do the EO respond to this charge?"  How do the EO respond to what charge? This is your charge, "It’s has been held by some that the palamite teaching violates absolute divine simplicity."

I am going to break down your question so we can find out exactly what you are asking?

1. Can you give us this list of "some" who claim palamite teaching violates divine simplicity so we know who's arguments you are relying on that charge Palamas?
2. Your charge is that Palamas violates absolute divine simplicity. Can you show us where Absolute Divine Simplicity is a theological term espoused prior to Aquinas? You stated, "the fathers always held to divine simplicity." Is this term specific in Maximus the Confessor? I will read the evidence, but can you please provide which fathers "held" to this? In your second comment in this thread you started, you only provide palamite and thomist quotes and essentially you are saying Palamas is denying the Fathers of the church.
3. Where was it held that absolute divine simplicity is the basis for understanding the whole of the issue? Reading it back into the fathers is one thing, proving it from the fathers as also the standard for the development of eastern theology (or dogma of the church) is quite another.

Therefore, Cavaradossi did not beg the question. Your entire op begged the question because first you assume absolute divine simplicity was wholly established and set out as the theology of the Church.  You then make the premise that "some" hold to the fact Palamas violates absolute divine simplicity.  Even if Absolute Divine Simplicity was the standard, the charge that "some" have an opinion construed as a charge, certainly doesn't even qualify as a majority. 

Anyway, I hope you can provide some clarity before trying to confuse the thread to just prove a point. Asking how one responds to a charge that is fallacious on its face is rather disingenuous. 
 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 12:35:33 PM by noahzarc1 »

Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2018, 02:59:20 PM »
https://jaysanalysis.com/2018/02/19/roman-catholic-dogmatic-absolute-divine-simplicity-is-heretical-jay-dyer/

I have yet to read it all, but he is much better than me to explain complex theoretical dogmas.

Hope that helps you find answers

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2018, 04:09:15 PM »
The idea that the fathers always taught simplicity in the Thomistic sense is laughable. Even Scotus' understanding of divine simplicity differs from Thomas'. St. Basil's treatment of the subject is also at odds with the Thomistic understanding, and in general, the Greek fathers did not adhere to the Thomistic understanding.

This begs the question. Secondly it’s dodging the main question of the thread. What is agreed is that divine simplicity denies composition in God. The essence/energies distinction as understood by palamism has been said by mainly to creat composition. How do EO respond to this?

Hold on Wandile. Your entire op begged the question. Cavaradossi responded to the charge.  You then accuse Cavaradossi of begging the question in your OP. It appears you do not know what it means to beg the question. Begging the question, i.e. assuming the initial point, is a logical fallacy in which someone assumes the statement under examination to be true. Therefore, you used a premise to support itself and asked, "how do the E.O. respond?"

You asked, "How do the EO respond to this charge?"  How do the EO respond to what charge? This is your charge, "It’s has been held by some that the palamite teaching violates absolute divine simplicity."

I am going to break down your question so we can find out exactly what you are asking?

1. Can you give us this list of "some" who claim palamite teaching violates divine simplicity so we know who's arguments you are relying on that charge Palamas?
2. Your charge is that Palamas violates absolute divine simplicity. Can you show us where Absolute Divine Simplicity is a theological term espoused prior to Aquinas? You stated, "the fathers always held to divine simplicity." Is this term specific in Maximus the Confessor? I will read the evidence, but can you please provide which fathers "held" to this? In your second comment in this thread you started, you only provide palamite and thomist quotes and essentially you are saying Palamas is denying the Fathers of the church.
3. Where was it held that absolute divine simplicity is the basis for understanding the whole of the issue? Reading it back into the fathers is one thing, proving it from the fathers as also the standard for the development of eastern theology (or dogma of the church) is quite another.

Therefore, Cavaradossi did not beg the question. Your entire op begged the question because first you assume absolute divine simplicity was wholly established and set out as the theology of the Church.  You then make the premise that "some" hold to the fact Palamas violates absolute divine simplicity.  Even if Absolute Divine Simplicity was the standard, the charge that "some" have an opinion construed as a charge, certainly doesn't even qualify as a majority. 

Anyway, I hope you can provide some clarity before trying to confuse the thread to just prove a point. Asking how one responds to a charge that is fallacious on its face is rather disingenuous.

 The transcendent God remains eternally hidden in His Essence.  No one can know if this divine simplicity can even exist without knowledge of the Essence.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2018, 06:32:24 PM »
The fathers have always held to divine simplicity as an uncompromising teaching of Christian theism. It’s taught all over in the fathers. The essence/energies distinction advanced and developed by Gregory Palamas has roots in some fathers but it has been argued that he took their teachings further than what the fathers taught on the matter. This can be evidenced in the difference of opinion regarding the hard/real (palamite) vs categorical (Coptic) distinction in the essence/energies distinction.

It’s has been held by some that the palamite teaching violates absolute divine simplicity. How do EO respond to this charge?

The fathers did not hold to absolute divine simplicity; read some Psuedo Dionysius the Aereopagite, or St. Basil, or St. Gregory Nazianzus.  ADS requires God to be knowable according to his essence, which is impossible if God is, as the Cappadocians put it, “a vast, limitless sea of being.”  Being infinite transcends complexity or simplicity, which are attributes only of created systems.

ADS is a Catholic heresy which Fr. Andrew S. Damick sharply criticized along with the belief in created grace, which if I recall in the somewhat less irenic first addition of Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy he referred to as blasphemy.

That said, it is a likeable heresy, because we can abbreviate it to ADS, which has a pleasing acronym sound.  I have it in mind to create acronyms for all the major heresies as a way of mocking them in the manner of St. Epiphanius.  For example, the Neo-Gnosticism of prominent academics could be abbreviated to “LSD.”
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 06:34:32 PM by Alpha60 »
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Offline biro

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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2018, 10:18:03 PM »
The fathers have always held to divine simplicity as an uncompromising teaching of Christian theism. It’s taught all over in the fathers. The essence/energies distinction advanced and developed by Gregory Palamas has roots in some fathers but it has been argued that he took their teachings further than what the fathers taught on the matter. This can be evidenced in the difference of opinion regarding the hard/real (palamite) vs categorical (Coptic) distinction in the essence/energies distinction.

It’s has been held by some that the palamite teaching violates absolute divine simplicity. How do EO respond to this charge?

The fathers did not hold to absolute divine simplicity; read some Psuedo Dionysius the Aereopagite, or St. Basil, or St. Gregory Nazianzus.  ADS requires God to be knowable according to his essence, which is impossible if God is, as the Cappadocians put it, “a vast, limitless sea of being.”  Being infinite transcends complexity or simplicity, which are attributes only of created systems.

ADS is a Catholic heresy which Fr. Andrew S. Damick sharply criticized along with the belief in created grace, which if I recall in the somewhat less irenic first addition of Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy he referred to as blasphemy.

That said, it is a likeable heresy, because we can abbreviate it to ADS, which has a pleasing acronym sound.  I have it in mind to create acronyms for all the major heresies as a way of mocking them in the manner of St. Epiphanius.  For example, the Neo-Gnosticism of prominent academics could be abbreviated to “LSD.”

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2018, 04:55:53 PM »
The more interesting question is “Do Catholics believe in ADS?” Hardcore Scholasticism is passe in the RCC, except among the Latin Mass people, who at the same time are liturgically more Orthodox.  The Roman Church is a bit confused.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2018, 06:51:28 PM »
I'm confused, what is "LSD" supposed to stand for in your tangent? ???
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Offline biro

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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2018, 09:39:07 PM »
I'm confused, what is "LSD" supposed to stand for in your tangent? ???

Lysergic acid diethylamide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysergic_acid_diethylamide
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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2018, 10:24:36 PM »
I'm confused, what is "LSD" supposed to stand for in your tangent? ???

Lysergic acid diethylamide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysergic_acid_diethylamide

I know that acronym, I just don't know what Alpha's personal one relating to Mormonism is.
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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2018, 01:00:58 AM »
Sorry.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2018, 01:24:34 AM »
I do stuff.

Offline Xavier

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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2018, 02:18:47 AM »
Quote from: Alpha60
The fathers did not hold to absolute divine simplicity; read some Psuedo Dionysius the Aereopagite

Dear Alpha, are you sure of this? I seem to recall St. Dionysius plainly saying Beauty is identical to Goodness in that Highest Good Who is Goodness. That is the doctrine of Divine Simplicity in a nutshell: There is No Composition in the Divine Essence. If you will read the quote in Cavaradossi's signature, you will see even in the East it is not denied that God cannot be composed of parts. Otherwise, He could not be infinite. The Almighty Being, the Supreme and Sublime Being Who gives being to all beings, has no composition at all but is entirely simple.

I think Catholics and Orthodox are slightly speaking past each other here because of a misunderstanding of what is Ad Extra (the energies, and the manifestation of the attributes - Love, Beauty, Power, Goodness, Wisdom) and what is Ad Intra (the Essence, and the attributes ad intra, which are the Divine Essence itself). That is why the Apostles says God is Love and God is Widom and the Almighty first revealed Himself as, I AM HE WHO IS, i.e. I AM Being itself, Eternal and self-subsistent, giving to all and receiving from none, such that all who have being have it from God; for God is Being itself, just as He is Goodness itself in Essence)

1. Can you explain why St. John says, God is Love? Why St. Paul says Christ is the Power of God? If the Power of God is something less than the Essence of God - as those who misunderstand what they are denying when they deny divine simplicity hold - what would follow? The wrong conclusion that Christ is less than the Essence of God. But in fact the Power of God is the Divine Essence Itself, for God is Power. Therefore, the Apostles teach Christ is the Power and Wisdom of God, because He is God in Essence. And so too God not merely loves or feels loving at some times, but is unchangeably Love in very Essence, as St. John the Apostle testifies. Nicaea defined Christ is the Wisdom of God.

2. Here is St. Dionysius the Areopagite whom you were raking about, Alpha. This is from Power of the Divine Names. http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/areopagite_03_divine_names.htm#c4

"BE it so then. Let us come to the appellation "Good," already mentioned in our discourse, which the Theologians ascribe pre-eminently and exclusively to the super-Divine Deity, as I conjecture, by calling the supremely Divine Subsistence, Goodness; and because the Good, as essential Good, by Its being, extends Its Goodness to all things that be ... From this Beautiful (comes) being to all existing things,----that each is beautiful in its own proper order; and by reason of the Beautiful are the adaptations of all things, and friendships, and inter-communions, and by the Beautiful all things are made one, and the Beautiful is origin of all things, as a creating Cause, both by moving the whole and holding it together by the love of its own peculiar Beauty; and end of all things, and beloved, as final Cause (for all things exist for the sake of the Beautiful) and exemplary (Cause), because all things are determined according to It. Wherefore, also, the Beautiful is identical with the Good, because all things aspire to the Beautiful and Good, on every account, and there is no existing thing which does not participate in the Beautiful and the Good."

Please read the link for more. St. Denis also uses the Sun and its rays analogy, which is why I don't believe Western and Eastern Tradition is entirely irreconciliable. However, insofar as the Greek Church has saldy taken up some polemics against Divine Simplicity, the text above should make it clear that she is unfortunately mistaken. The crux of the mistake comes from not distinguishing between the divine attributes as they are Ad Intra (within, inside) and Ad Extra (or without, outside) of God's Essence.

This was also taught by Our Lord Jesus Himself to St. Maria Faustina, a victim soul to whom He personally revealed the Divine Mercy Devotion. The Savior explained to her that in God Himself, His Own Essence is Mercy and Love Itself. But when we consider the manifestation of the attributes outside of God toward creatures, the Power of God is more manifested in His Mercy than in any other attribute. Thus also holy Church ever says, Lord have Mercy. Or Kyrie Eleison in Greek. The texts of the holy Fathers too are thereby to be explained and thus to be harmonized.

The Fathers also say, the same sun melts wax and hardens clay. Here we have an analogy for the differing manifestation of what was one in origin. This is a patristic analogy for the operation of grace.

Your thoughts, Alpha?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 02:24:50 AM by Xavier »
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Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2018, 09:01:12 AM »
https://jaysanalysis.com/2018/02/19/roman-catholic-dogmatic-absolute-divine-simplicity-is-heretical-jay-dyer/

I have yet to read it all, but he is much better than me to explain complex theoretical dogmas.

Hope that helps you find answers
Maybe Xavier didn't read this, i do not see how it is possible to maintain the papal view after reading this.

Offline Xavier

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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2018, 09:58:23 AM »
Quote from: Cavaradossi
But there is no use in discussing if we cannot agree on what simplicity means. In the Thomistic sense, as I wrote before, the two positions are likely incompatible, but in the sense in which St. Maximus and St. Basil (or even Duns Scotus) would've understood God to be simple, the the essence/energies distinction would not be incompatible, because each recognizes some type of distinction that points to some kind of reality in the object of intellection, which is to say that we do not call God just or merciful according to them merely because God's justice or mercy are mere fables created by the human mind (the Eunomian position) or because of an analogy of being (as Thomas posited) but because they truly are some sort of distinct and comprehensible realities (or energeiai as they are called by St. Basil and St. Maximus) in God which are revealed to us in the created order by God's operation within it, or because according to Duns Scotus, the ratio of the two terms differs, and therefore they must somehow be distinct even in God, although they are inseparable, which is why they are formally but not really distinct.

This is for the most part a commendable summary and even the final conclusion is almost acceptable. The only area I would disagree with Cavaradossi is that St. Thomas' Analogy of Being (between what we conceive as goodness, for e.g. and what Goodness i.e. God actually is - St. Thomas teaches the Divine Essence is incomprehensible!) is in fact the right position. We do not know the divine essence, beside what has been graciously revealed to us by the good God, which we believe firmly, and that which by natural analogy can be understood about God from the things that have been made, as St. Paul says to the Romans.

As for Dyer's polemic against Divine Simplicity, to be brief, these are the 3 major mistakes it makes (1) First, it refuses to deal properly with the fact that all Tradition calls the Son the Word and Wisdom of God the Father, which is also dogmatic; since Dyer has no scruples with making polemical claims, we could accuse him of being a semi-Arian by making the Wisdom of God less than God. (2) Dyer again repeatedly fails to distinguish the internal attributes themselves (which is all that would have existed, and necessarily so, if God had not freely chosen to create) from the external manifestation of those attributes, where like the 7 colors of the rainbow from white light, St. Thomas clearly teaches the manifestation of God's Mercy, for e.g. differs from that of His Justice (3) Dyer should have recognized the Council of Toledo that he critically cites (if you don't accept these ancient Councils, you are in schism from the ancient Church) only refutes him and clearly shows Divine simplicity is the canonical doctrine of antiquity instead of refusing to accept it by attempting to "refute" the Council of Toledo.

The Council without Dyer's commentary: just as the Son is the eternal Word and Wisdom of the Father and so is of His essence, so too these Councils teach the Holy Spirit is the Love and Will of the Father and the Son and so is of Their Essence. These are all entirely Biblical analogies.

"“COUNCIL OF TOLEDO XVI: Profession of Faith concerning the Trinity

"Let the designation of this “holy will”-although through a comparative similitude of the Trinity, where it is called memory, intelligence, and will-refer to the Person of the Holy Spirit; according to this, however, what applies to Itself, is predicated Substantially ... one is the Father who refers to the Son, another the Son, who refers to the Father, another the Holy Spirit who, because He proceeds from the Father and the Son, refers to the Father and the Son; not the same but one in one way, one in another, because to whom there is one being in the nature of deity, to these there is a special property in the distinction of Persons"

I'm still waiting for an answer to why Scripture calls Christ the Power and Wisdom of God, why it says God Himself is Love, why the Holy Ghost is called Power? Maybe you can answer Vanhyo? The answer is that these attributes are the Divine essence in eternity, before creation, and thus to say Christ is the Wisdom of God is equivalent to saying He is God by essence. To say the Holy Ghost is Power is nothing else than to say He is God by Essence, because God is essential Power. If you claim the power of God even in eternity is something else and something less than God, you will fall into error, and make the Son and the Holy Ghost less than the Father. Nicaea invoked this Biblical analogy to answer those who claimed Christ was of a different substance of the Father; if that were so, the Counc said, then God was without Wisdom at some time, or God's wisdom is lower than His nature, which is false; although it is an analogy, it is clear within it that One is the Person Who is unbegotten, and the other is the Person begotten from Him, Who for that reason is called Word and Wisdom of the Other. The same we see in John 1 also, where the Apostle of love refutes both Arianism and Modalism in one fell swoop with this analogy. Dyer hardly deals with these important Scriptural texts, then absurdly claims Simplicity leads to Modalism. Hilarious!

If that were really so, then St. John and St. Paul were modalists. Since obviously they were not, Dyer is manifestly mistaken.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 10:04:20 AM by Xavier »
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2018, 10:18:09 AM »
Quote
I'm still waiting for an answer to why Scripture calls Christ the Power and Wisdom of God, why it says God Himself is Love, why the Holy Ghost is called Power? Maybe you can answer Vanhyo?
It was already answered, i thought it was strange that you ask a question that was answered, maybe it is because you yourself do not understand the matter ? We call God by what we know about Him through experience  (or by the experience of others) in other words, we only know God's operations, not God's essence.

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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2018, 10:24:23 AM »
Here, St. Cyril explains that God is not composed of parts but entirely simple.

Cyril. "Therefore, since, in your view, the divine is simple and exists above all composition (and this view of yours is correct), his will is nothing other than he himself. And if someone says “will,” he indicates the nature of God the Father [comment - which already suffices to refute Dyer] ... For if one is not too poorly endowed with the decency which befits wise men, one will say that the divine being is properly and primarily simple and incomposite; one will not, dear friend, venture to think that it is composed out of nature and energy, as though, in the case of the divine, these are naturally other; one will believe that it exists as entirely one thing with all that it substantially possesses."

Bp. Ware's summary is correct. God is not composite but simple in essence. The operations are the whole God in action.
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #64 on: August 12, 2018, 10:28:55 AM »
Distinction doesn't mean parts.

Otherwise maybe you don't believe The Father to be truly distinct from the Son.

Divine operations can also be distinct, unless you believe creating the world is the same as raining fire on sodom and is the same as the divine essence.

Also if the act of creating the world is the same as the divine essence, then creating the world was not a free act.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 10:31:39 AM by Vanhyo »

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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2018, 12:19:21 PM »
Nobody is saying distinction means parts, Vanhyo. These are the 5 statements you could address to see if you agree with St. Cyril. This is from Dialogues on the Trinity quoted above.

1. the divine is simple and exists above all composition

2.  his will is nothing other than he himself.

3. And if someone says “will,” he indicates the nature of God

4. For if one is not too poorly endowed with the decency which befits wise men, one will say that the divine being is properly and primarily simple and incomposite;

5. one will not, dear friend, venture to think that it is composed out of nature and energy, as though, in the case of the divine, these are naturally other; one will believe that it exists as entirely one thing with all that it substantially possesses

Would you agree with at least 3 of these statements? I think you would deny all the first 3, based on your mistaken denial of divine simplicity, which is here explained and proven. Divine simplicity, in a nutshell, means there is no composition in the Divine Essence. It is both a truth of reason and a divinely revealed doctrine.
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2018, 07:01:31 PM »
If you will read the quote in Cavaradossi's signature, you will see even in the East it is not denied that God cannot be composed of parts.

Full disclosure: that comes from an inside joke with several posters who have since gone inactive about how sticking too many philosophical concepts into hymns makes them rather uninspiring. It's not a serious statement.
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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #67 on: August 12, 2018, 07:13:50 PM »
If you will read the quote in Cavaradossi's signature, you will see even in the East it is not denied that God cannot be composed of parts.

Full disclosure: that comes from an inside joke with several posters who have since gone inactive about how sticking too many philosophical concepts into hymns makes them rather uninspiring. It's not a serious statement.
It should probably say "The Prokemeion in the third tone!" or something then  ;)
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Re: Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
« Reply #68 on: Yesterday at 03:06:22 AM »
If you will read the quote in Cavaradossi's signature, you will see even in the East it is not denied that God cannot be composed of parts.

Full disclosure: that comes from an inside joke with several posters who have since gone inactive about how sticking too many philosophical concepts into hymns makes them rather uninspiring. It's not a serious statement.

Ok, then.

Things are not as simple as they seem, I guess!  ;D

Anyway, what's your opinion, Cavaradossi, on whether Eastern Tradition and Western Tradition can be reconciled? The classical statement of Divine Simplicity in the West comes from St. Augustine. In De Trinitate, Book VI, in particular, St. Augustine shows that Power and Wisdom are identical in (the Essence of) God. Please see: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/130106.htm

"For the Apostle says, "Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." And hence some on our side have reasoned in this way against the Arians ... If the Son of God is the power and wisdom of God, and God was never without power and wisdom, then the Son is co-eternal with God the Father; but the Apostle says, "Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God;" and a man must be senseless to say that God at any time had not power or wisdom; therefore there was no time when the Son was not ... For that certainly is the power which is the wisdom, and that is the wisdom which is the power; and in like manner, therefore, of the rest also; so that that is the greatness which is the power, or any other of those things which either have been mentioned above, or may hereafter be mentioned.

Chapter 6.— How God is a Substance Both Simple and Manifold.

8. But if it is asked how that substance is both simple and manifold: consider, first, why the creature is manifold, but in no way really simple. And first, all that is body is composed certainly of parts; so that therein one part is greater, another less, and the whole is greater than any part whatever or how great soever ...

And hence the nature of body is conclusively proved to be manifold, and in no respect simple. The spiritual creature also, that is, the soul, is indeed the more simple of the two if compared with the body; but if we omit the comparison with the body, it is manifold, and itself also not simple ... For it is on this account more simple than the body, because it is not diffused in bulk through extension of place, but in each body, it is both whole in the whole, and whole in each several part of it ... But, nevertheless, since in the soul also it is one thing to be skillful, another to be indolent, another to be intelligent, another to be of retentive memory; since cupidity is one thing, fear another, joy another, sadness another ...  it is manifest that its nature is not simple, but manifold. For nothing simple is changeable, but every creature is changeable.

But God is truly called in manifold ways, great, good, wise, blessed, true, and whatsoever other thing seems to be said of Him not unworthily: but His greatness is the same as His wisdom; for He is not great by bulk, but by power; and His goodness is the same as His wisdom and greatness, and His truth the same as all those things; and in Him it is not one thing to be blessed, and another to be great, or wise, or true, or good, or in a word to be Himself."

Thoughts? My opinion is, provided the East admits the energies introduce no composition into the Divine Essence itself, the two Traditions can be reconciled.
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

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They actually suspended Jay's website, the info is no longer accessible....
« Last Edit: Today at 02:52:29 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline juliogb

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They actually suspended Jay's website, the info is no longer accessible....

That's a shame, censorship is growing indeed.

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They actually suspended Jay's website, the info is no longer accessible....

That's a shame, censorship is growing indeed.

A known jerk loses his website and you jump right to censorship? I mean, Wordpress does have conduct rules.
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Offline juliogb

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They actually suspended Jay's website, the info is no longer accessible....

That's a shame, censorship is growing indeed.

A known jerk loses his website and you jump right to censorship? I mean, Wordpress does have conduct rules.

I wouldn't be surprised actually, the tech companies are going after the people that expose the global powers, the occultists and the real powers behind governments, the media and the culture industry.

Offline Volnutt

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They actually suspended Jay's website, the info is no longer accessible....

That's a shame, censorship is growing indeed.

A known jerk loses his website and you jump right to censorship? I mean, Wordpress does have conduct rules.

I wouldn't be surprised actually, the tech companies are going after the people that expose the global powers, the occultists and the real powers behind governments, the media and the culture industry.

It's not like there's any shortage of conservative cultural critique out there (of the moonbat variety and otherwise). I doubt Jay Dyer is that much on the radar.

Now when Br. Nathaniel loses his site :p...
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