Author Topic: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.  (Read 2034 times)

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Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

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Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« on: May 17, 2018, 10:29:36 PM »
Hello everybody, a little background.

I did not grow up religious, but about a decade ago a co-worker invited me to his church one Sunday and I decided to go. It was a Fundamentalist Baptist church and to make a long story short I ended up being baptized as a Baptist and was with the church for two years. Then, after getting deep into Church history I decided to make the move towards Catholicism (a decision which understandably alienated me from many of my Baptist friends). Welp, I've been Catholic for these last few years now and I've enjoyed my time. However, I'm getting extremely fed up with the increasing liberalization of the Church.

I've been heavily considering going east, but I'm still a little held back. From my understanding, the Orthodox Church allows divorce and remarriage up to three times, something which I simply do not feel comfortable with. Could anyone clarify this for me? Also, sometimes I'm afraid for my conscience, as it has been told to me that knowingly leaving the Catholic Church puts my soul in danger of hell for schism.
"God can be proved in five ways." - St. Thomas Aquinas

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2018, 11:04:04 PM »
Hello everybody, a little background.

I did not grow up religious, but about a decade ago a co-worker invited me to his church one Sunday and I decided to go. It was a Fundamentalist Baptist church and to make a long story short I ended up being baptized as a Baptist and was with the church for two years. Then, after getting deep into Church history I decided to make the move towards Catholicism (a decision which understandably alienated me from many of my Baptist friends). Welp, I've been Catholic for these last few years now and I've enjoyed my time. However, I'm getting extremely fed up with the increasing liberalization of the Church.

I've been heavily considering going east, but I'm still a little held back. From my understanding, the Orthodox Church allows divorce and remarriage up to three times, something which I simply do not feel comfortable with. Could anyone clarify this for me? Also, sometimes I'm afraid for my conscience, as it has been told to me that knowingly leaving the Catholic Church puts my soul in danger of hell for schism.

And some Baptists would say that knowingly staying Catholic puts your soul in danger of Hell for not embracing Sola Fide. What do you care what some church you don't go to anymore says about you? It's not possible to please everybody.
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Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2018, 11:12:37 PM »
Hello everybody, a little background.

I did not grow up religious, but about a decade ago a co-worker invited me to his church one Sunday and I decided to go. It was a Fundamentalist Baptist church and to make a long story short I ended up being baptized as a Baptist and was with the church for two years. Then, after getting deep into Church history I decided to make the move towards Catholicism (a decision which understandably alienated me from many of my Baptist friends). Welp, I've been Catholic for these last few years now and I've enjoyed my time. However, I'm getting extremely fed up with the increasing liberalization of the Church.

I've been heavily considering going east, but I'm still a little held back. From my understanding, the Orthodox Church allows divorce and remarriage up to three times, something which I simply do not feel comfortable with. Could anyone clarify this for me? Also, sometimes I'm afraid for my conscience, as it has been told to me that knowingly leaving the Catholic Church puts my soul in danger of hell for schism.

And some Baptists would say that knowingly staying Catholic puts your soul in danger of Hell for not embracing Sola Fide. What do you care what some church you don't go to anymore says about you? It's not possible to please everybody.

I suppose you're right. Though, they were the OSAS crowd.
"God can be proved in five ways." - St. Thomas Aquinas

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2018, 11:17:13 PM »
For what it's worth, I too had to overcome a great internal resistance to merely come to an Orthodox church on Sundays, even though God had made it clear to me that he wanted me to join the Orthodox Church months before.  As soon as I yielded to his will, it was "grace upon grace"!  In a short time the prospect of conversion seemed less as such and more as becoming more Catholic, fully indeed.

Pray, especially that God guides your heart and mind and remains particularly close to you during your discernment.  If anything, you'll be a better Catholic, whatever the outcome. ;)
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2018, 11:18:07 PM »
Don't do it. You will enter a realm of battle. Your soul will become a battle ground for righteousness amd you will regret the day you entered into the mouth of the beast.

Offline HaydenTE

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2018, 11:19:55 PM »
Don't do it. You will enter a realm of battle. Your soul will become a battle ground for righteousness amd you will regret the day you entered into the mouth of the beast.

Yeah.... ignore this.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2018, 11:23:57 PM »
Don't do it. You will enter a realm of battle. Your soul will become a battle ground for righteousness amd you will regret the day you entered into the mouth of the beast.

Pretty much true in any sphere of life if we're living with our eyes open. Truth is not dictated by ease of application.

Unless of course you're trying to do the Jewish, "turn a convert away three times in order to make sure they're really sincere" thing.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2018, 11:25:47 PM »
Hello everybody, a little background.

I did not grow up religious, but about a decade ago a co-worker invited me to his church one Sunday and I decided to go. It was a Fundamentalist Baptist church and to make a long story short I ended up being baptized as a Baptist and was with the church for two years. Then, after getting deep into Church history I decided to make the move towards Catholicism (a decision which understandably alienated me from many of my Baptist friends). Welp, I've been Catholic for these last few years now and I've enjoyed my time. However, I'm getting extremely fed up with the increasing liberalization of the Church.

I've been heavily considering going east, but I'm still a little held back. From my understanding, the Orthodox Church allows divorce and remarriage up to three times, something which I simply do not feel comfortable with. Could anyone clarify this for me? Also, sometimes I'm afraid for my conscience, as it has been told to me that knowingly leaving the Catholic Church puts my soul in danger of hell for schism.

Well I left Catholicism because I was convinced it was wrong. I myself never felt too worried about those feelings of "what if I am wrong." I was convinced of Orthodoxy within 6 months of study and church-going, but didn't get the opportunity to convert until some years later. In short, I can't speak much to your feelings, but you are in my prayers.

In terms of the divorce issue, these brief things I wrote some time back might help you a little, although it is no guarantee:

https://shamelessorthodoxy.com/2016/09/17/divorce-remarriage-in-the-latin-west-a-forgotten-history/

https://shamelessorthodoxy.com/2017/05/09/divorce-remarriage-in-the-latin-west-an-addendum/

Also, it is worth noting and stressing that just because an ecclesiastical divorce is granted, it does not therefore mean that the divorcee is free to remarry. That's another thing entirely in Orthodoxy.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2018, 11:27:33 PM »
I have too include some drama. This is the age of house wives after all.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2018, 11:28:40 PM »
You know this place was boring without me. Lol

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2018, 11:53:49 PM »
I've been heavily considering going east, but I'm still a little held back. From my understanding, the Orthodox Church allows divorce and remarriage up to three times, something which I simply do not feel comfortable with. Could anyone clarify this for me?
The Church has power to bind and loose. It abhors divorce, but it grants due mercy to many divorcees in a discritionary fashion, and allows remarriage penitentially. It has been so from the very beginning. I summed up a lot of stuff in these three sentences, so if you want me to proceed in anything, just tell.

Quote
Also, sometimes I'm afraid for my conscience, as it has been told to me that knowingly leaving the Catholic Church puts my soul in danger of hell for schism.
I felt so and I wasn't even Roman Catholic, I just considered Roman Catholicism could be right as I was knowing the Orthodox Church. That's natural to leaving any religion and IMHO it's most frequently not fruit of faith or reason, but of custom. If there were faith and reason in the game, there would be no idea of changing to cause fears in the first place.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 11:54:34 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2018, 02:12:49 AM »
I was raised nothing  (but my mother says shes a baptist, whoknew)
I married and my wife was mormon, so i went there (didn't know aquat about christ, so why not)
I left, couldnt feel anything, but lies to myself.
Found orthodoxy, beem going for 7 months. Not baptized but  working toward it, whenever it happens it happens im young (ish).
The first time i felt something, a piece clicked, and i knew.
Give i a chance, read theology and history and make your mind up over prayers.
Good luck, god bless

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2018, 04:24:18 AM »
Hi Isaiah53IsMessiah!
The only reason for leaving the Catholic church I could find in your original post is that you are "fed up with the increasing liberalization of the Church."
There is a lot to say about that, but for the sake of brevity, I just say I agree with you.
However, why not look for a parish, a priest and spiritual guidance within the Catholic church that do not have that problem - they do exist!
For example, probably there is a traditional parish near the place you are living - if that would be an option for you?
Leaving (i.e. in a way giving up) is always the worst choice, especially if you think you are running away from something
(such as liberalization) rather than towards something.
If you were to say: "After having studied church history in depth, looking at the various theological arguments on both sides and embracing Orthodox liturgy
and prayer life, I have found the truth in the East." I would probably say: "Okay, I see and understand."
But being fed up with liberalization as the major reason for conversion?
I would argue that this is probably not sufficient in the long run.

And I share your concerns regarding marrying up to three times:
The Catholic understanding of a marriage is that it is an indissoluble sacrament (between baptized persons, validly entered and consummated).
They will tell you that divorce is granted reluctantly in some scenarios due to "mercy".
What kind of mercy is that?

« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 04:25:32 AM by Lepanto »
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2018, 05:53:36 AM »
Leaving (i.e. in a way giving up) is always the worst choice, especially if you think you are running away from something
(such as liberalization) rather than towards something.
You do have a point there.

Quote
If you were to say: "After having studied church history in depth, looking at the various theological arguments on both sides and embracing Orthodox liturgy
and prayer life, I have found the truth in the East."
This isn't really necessary, most people here in the forum were either born in the Church or just wound up in it. Intellectuality usually comes after.

Quote
The Catholic understanding of a marriage is that it is an indissoluble sacrament (between baptized persons, validly entered and consummated).
It's bigger than that, actually. Roman Catholic sacramentology says a valid natural marriage is indissoluble, too.

Quote
They will tell you that divorce is granted reluctantly in some scenarios due to "mercy".
What kind of mercy is that?
The same we always did. People get divorced, they shouldn't be penanced as adulterers for life, specially if they were victims of adultery or violence themselves in the first place.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2018, 07:18:20 AM »
Quote
If you were to say: "After having studied church history in depth, looking at the various theological arguments on both sides and embracing Orthodox liturgy
and prayer life, I have found the truth in the East."
This isn't really necessary, most people here in the forum were either born in the Church or just wound up in it. Intellectuality usually comes after.
In this case, Isaiah53IsMessiah is not a cradle Orthodox. Telling from his initial post, intellectual considerations are already part of his considerations.

Regarding the divorce question:
It is not primarily about whether people should be penanced or not (though of course this is part of the equation), but about whether one actually can and should divorce married couples. Yes, I know, people will be quick to outline how the Catholic church´s annulment regulations are resulting in the same or worse at the end of the day.
But I would like Isaiah53IsMessiah to consider whether he (or she) actually believes that the bond of marriage can be dissolved, although it is a sacrament.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2018, 07:45:14 AM »
Jesus Christ himself taught that it could be dissolved: “Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery.”

Why not just be honest and recognize that divorce happens, instead of pretending that the marriage never existed to begin with?
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2018, 08:32:45 AM »
You know this place was boring without me. Lol

It’s at least as boring with you.

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2018, 09:21:58 AM »
Don't do it. You will enter a realm of battle. Your soul will become a battle ground for righteousness amd you will regret the day you entered into the mouth of the beast.

Pretty much true in any sphere of life if we're living with our eyes open. Truth is not dictated by ease of application.

Unless of course you're trying to do the Jewish, "turn a convert away three times in order to make sure they're really sincere" thing.
You seem to know me pretty well young Jedi.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2018, 09:28:58 AM »
Hello everybody, a little background.

I did not grow up religious, but about a decade ago a co-worker invited me to his church one Sunday and I decided to go. It was a Fundamentalist Baptist church and to make a long story short I ended up being baptized as a Baptist and was with the church for two years. Then, after getting deep into Church history I decided to make the move towards Catholicism (a decision which understandably alienated me from many of my Baptist friends). Welp, I've been Catholic for these last few years now and I've enjoyed my time. However, I'm getting extremely fed up with the increasing liberalization of the Church.

I've been heavily considering going east, but I'm still a little held back. From my understanding, the Orthodox Church allows divorce and remarriage up to three times, something which I simply do not feel comfortable with. Could anyone clarify this for me? Also, sometimes I'm afraid for my conscience, as it has been told to me that knowingly leaving the Catholic Church puts my soul in danger of hell for schism.
Its a severe sin to divorce and just because the canon is there doesn't mean its OK.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2018, 09:45:25 AM »
Quote
Also, sometimes I'm afraid for my conscience, as it has been told to me that knowingly leaving the Catholic Church puts my soul in danger of hell for schism.
I felt so and I wasn't even Roman Catholic, I just considered Roman Catholicism could be right as I was knowing the Orthodox Church. That's natural to leaving any religion and IMHO it's most frequently not fruit of faith or reason, but of custom. If there were faith and reason in the game, there would be no idea of changing to cause fears in the first place.
No, Rafa.  It's a sign of humility, for knowing that one's faith and reason is imperfect is a blessing.  What is needed is the Lord's beckoning and one's trusting him.

However, why not look for a parish, a priest and spiritual guidance within the Catholic church that do not have that problem - they do exist!
Indeed, it's important to live the faith out incarnated in a parish, not in books.

But being fed up with liberalization as the major reason for conversion?
I would argue that this is probably not sufficient in the long run.
It definitely is not.  It has to come from the Lord, for then he will sustain you throughout and forever after.

But I would like Isaiah53IsMessiah to consider whether he (or she) actually believes that the bond of marriage can be dissolved, although it is a sacrament.
The Orthodox Church does not believe that the marriage bond can be dissolved.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 09:52:32 AM by Sharbel »
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2018, 09:54:56 AM »
Quote
If you were to say: "After having studied church history in depth, looking at the various theological arguments on both sides and embracing Orthodox liturgy
and prayer life, I have found the truth in the East."
This isn't really necessary, most people here in the forum were either born in the Church or just wound up in it. Intellectuality usually comes after.
In this case, Isaiah53IsMessiah is not a cradle Orthodox. Telling from his initial post, intellectual considerations are already part of his considerations.

Regarding the divorce question:
It is not primarily about whether people should be penanced or not (though of course this is part of the equation), but about whether one actually can and should divorce married couples. Yes, I know, people will be quick to outline how the Catholic church´s annulment regulations are resulting in the same or worse at the end of the day.
But I would like Isaiah53IsMessiah to consider whether he (or she) actually believes that the bond of marriage can be dissolved, although it is a sacrament.

Can and should are two different questions. The Orthodox would affirm that yes, a couple can be divorced. They would also affirm, as Iconodule has stated above, that marriage is dissoluble. As for should, the answer is absolutely no. But I should stress that it is not the canonical writ of divorce that makes the divorce so. The writ is merely a recognition of what has already happened. As both Sts. John Chrysostom and Cyril of Alexandria have said, the actions of the couple are what dissolve a marriage.

The Orthodox Church does not believe that the marriage bond can be dissolved.

Yes, it does.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 09:55:58 AM by Rohzek »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2018, 09:56:41 AM »
Jesus Christ himself taught that it could be dissolved: “Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery.”

Why not just be honest and recognize that divorce happens, instead of pretending that the marriage never existed to begin with?

I always think of the Catholic page I saw that tried to argue that that has to mean "one partner was a fornicator and lied about it, therefore the marriage was invalid." Seems like a stretch, but whatever.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2018, 10:15:44 AM »
The Orthodox Church does not believe that the marriage bond can be dissolved.
Yes, it does.
Dissolved or broken?  As in here.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2018, 10:23:33 AM »
Yes, I know, people will be quick to outline how the Catholic church´s annulment regulations are resulting in the same or worse at the end of the day.

Another point: It's not that the results of the annulment regulations are the same as divorce; Catholic "annulment" is the same as divorce. "Annulment" is divorce. Let's be clear on that. And then it compounds the evil of divorce with a lie- "there actually wasn't a marriage". This lie allows the Catholic access to an indefinite number of divorces and remarriages. So it is divorce, and it is worse than divorce because it deceives the couple.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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Offline platypus

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2018, 10:44:08 AM »
I've been heavily considering going east, but I'm still a little held back. From my understanding, the Orthodox Church allows divorce and remarriage up to three times, something which I simply do not feel comfortable with. Could anyone clarify this for me? Also, sometimes I'm afraid for my conscience, as it has been told to me that knowingly leaving the Catholic Church puts my soul in danger of hell for schism.

My brother reminded me during my conversion to Orthodoxy that leaving the Catholic Church would mean I'll go to hell. I told him I wasn't leaving the Catholic Church; I was joining it.

If you're concerned that leaving Catholicism puts you in danger of schisming from the one true Church, I'd strongly encourage you spend more time learning about the seven Ecumenical Councils. Learning what the Church taught, and how the operated for the first thousand years will make it much easier to determine who split from who.

Also the book "The Ecclesiological Renovation of Vatican II" by Fr. Peter Heers gives a very good background on what constituted the Catholic Church in the mind of the early Church fathers, contrasting this with the teachings of modern Catholicism.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2018, 10:48:23 AM »
The Orthodox Church does not believe that the marriage bond can be dissolved.
Yes, it does.
Dissolved or broken?  As in here.

I'm not certain what the difference is between the two. Maybe we're talking past one another? But this is what I am referring to, as your own article expresses:

Quote
A question we can ask ourselves is whether Christ considered marriage as being indissoluble? We need to be very clear in this as when Christ teaches that marriage may not be dissolved that does not mean that He is stating that it cannot occur. The completeness of the marriage relationship can be tainted by erroneous behaviour. In other words, it is the offence that breaks the bond. The divorce is ultimately a result of this break. This is also the teaching of the Eastern Church fathers. A quotation from the testimony of Cyril of Alexandria will be sufficient to make our point here: “It is not the letters of divorce that dissolve the marriage in relation God but the errant behaviour”.[21]
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2018, 10:51:49 AM »
Yes, I know, people will be quick to outline how the Catholic church´s annulment regulations are resulting in the same or worse at the end of the day.

Another point: It's not that the results of the annulment regulations are the same as divorce; Catholic "annulment" is the same as divorce. "Annulment" is divorce. Let's be clear on that. And then it compounds the evil of divorce with a lie- "there actually wasn't a marriage". This lie allows the Catholic access to an indefinite number of divorces and remarriages. So it is divorce, and it is worse than divorce because it deceives the couple.

Sigh. We have had it over and over again on this forum. Ad nauseam. Annulment is not divorce.
Let me just this once quote wikipedia:
Quote
Unlike divorce, it is usually retroactive, meaning that an annulled marriage is considered to be invalid from the beginning almost as if it had never taken place
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annulment
You know it very well and are deliberately oversimplifying things.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2018, 10:55:05 AM »
Yes, I know, people will be quick to outline how the Catholic church´s annulment regulations are resulting in the same or worse at the end of the day.

Another point: It's not that the results of the annulment regulations are the same as divorce; Catholic "annulment" is the same as divorce. "Annulment" is divorce. Let's be clear on that. And then it compounds the evil of divorce with a lie- "there actually wasn't a marriage". This lie allows the Catholic access to an indefinite number of divorces and remarriages. So it is divorce, and it is worse than divorce because it deceives the couple.

Sigh. We have had it over and over again on this forum. Ad nauseam. Annulment is not divorce.
Let me just this once quote wikipedia:
Quote
Unlike divorce, it is usually retroactive, meaning that an annulled marriage is considered to be invalid from the beginning almost as if it had never taken place
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annulment
You know it very well and are deliberately oversimplifying things.

I specifically addressed this nonsense above.

Annulment is divorce, compounded with the lie that there was no marriage to begin with.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2018, 11:02:31 AM »
Yes, I know, people will be quick to outline how the Catholic church´s annulment regulations are resulting in the same or worse at the end of the day.

Another point: It's not that the results of the annulment regulations are the same as divorce; Catholic "annulment" is the same as divorce. "Annulment" is divorce. Let's be clear on that. And then it compounds the evil of divorce with a lie- "there actually wasn't a marriage". This lie allows the Catholic access to an indefinite number of divorces and remarriages. So it is divorce, and it is worse than divorce because it deceives the couple.

Sigh. We have had it over and over again on this forum. Ad nauseam. Annulment is not divorce.
Let me just this once quote wikipedia:
Quote
Unlike divorce, it is usually retroactive, meaning that an annulled marriage is considered to be invalid from the beginning almost as if it had never taken place
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annulment
You know it very well and are deliberately oversimplifying things.

I specifically addressed this nonsense above.

Annulment is divorce, compounded with the lie that there was no marriage to begin with.
not to mention that at least in the Archdiocese of Chicago, you MUST have a civil divorce before you can seek an annulment.

C-0-R-B-A-N. Nothing more.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2018, 11:06:06 AM »
Hello everybody, a little background.

I did not grow up religious, but about a decade ago a co-worker invited me to his church one Sunday and I decided to go. It was a Fundamentalist Baptist church and to make a long story short I ended up being baptized as a Baptist and was with the church for two years. Then, after getting deep into Church history I decided to make the move towards Catholicism (a decision which understandably alienated me from many of my Baptist friends). Welp, I've been Catholic for these last few years now and I've enjoyed my time. However, I'm getting extremely fed up with the increasing liberalization of the Church.

I've been heavily considering going east, but I'm still a little held back. From my understanding, the Orthodox Church allows divorce and remarriage up to three times, something which I simply do not feel comfortable with. Could anyone clarify this for me? Also, sometimes I'm afraid for my conscience, as it has been told to me that knowingly leaving the Catholic Church puts my soul in danger of hell for schism.
If you were received by Orthodox Church you would not be leaving the Catholic Church, but embracing her.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2018, 11:35:04 AM »
Yes, I know, people will be quick to outline how the Catholic church´s annulment regulations are resulting in the same or worse at the end of the day.

Another point: It's not that the results of the annulment regulations are the same as divorce; Catholic "annulment" is the same as divorce. "Annulment" is divorce. Let's be clear on that. And then it compounds the evil of divorce with a lie- "there actually wasn't a marriage". This lie allows the Catholic access to an indefinite number of divorces and remarriages. So it is divorce, and it is worse than divorce because it deceives the couple.

Sigh. We have had it over and over again on this forum. Ad nauseam. Annulment is not divorce.
Let me just this once quote wikipedia:
Quote
Unlike divorce, it is usually retroactive, meaning that an annulled marriage is considered to be invalid from the beginning almost as if it had never taken place
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annulment
You know it very well and are deliberately oversimplifying things.

I specifically addressed this nonsense above.

Annulment is divorce, compounded with the lie that there was no marriage to begin with.
not to mention that at least in the Archdiocese of Chicago, you MUST have a civil divorce before you can seek an annulment.

C-0-R-B-A-N. Nothing more.

Repeating things or writing in capital letters does not make them more true. Corban,Corban,Corban.
Still not true.
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2018, 11:36:39 AM »
Repeating things or writing in capital letters does not make them more true. Corban,Corban,Corban.
Still not true.

You might be on to something. "This marriage never happened, this marriage never happened, this marriage never happened." You're right, it doesn't work.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline recent convert

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2018, 11:53:16 AM »
You seem to be close to becoming Orthodox; I pray that this will be fulfilled for you.  I believe Catholics have salvation but if a person sees the fullness of Orthodoxy, I pray that fulfillment . I just hope that logistics are favorable.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2018, 11:55:07 AM »
Yes, I know, people will be quick to outline how the Catholic church´s annulment regulations are resulting in the same or worse at the end of the day.

Another point: It's not that the results of the annulment regulations are the same as divorce; Catholic "annulment" is the same as divorce. "Annulment" is divorce. Let's be clear on that. And then it compounds the evil of divorce with a lie- "there actually wasn't a marriage". This lie allows the Catholic access to an indefinite number of divorces and remarriages. So it is divorce, and it is worse than divorce because it deceives the couple.

Sigh. We have had it over and over again on this forum. Ad nauseam. Annulment is not divorce.
Let me just this once quote wikipedia:
Quote
Unlike divorce, it is usually retroactive, meaning that an annulled marriage is considered to be invalid from the beginning almost as if it had never taken place
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annulment
You know it very well and are deliberately oversimplifying things.

I specifically addressed this nonsense above.

Annulment is divorce, compounded with the lie that there was no marriage to begin with.
not to mention that at least in the Archdiocese of Chicago, you MUST have a civil divorce before you can seek an annulment.

C-0-R-B-A-N. Nothing more.

Repeating things or writing in capital letters does not make them more true. Corban,Corban,Corban.
Still not true.
As Iconodule astutely points out, you just disproved yourself.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Online Vanhyo

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2018, 09:12:31 AM »
Quote
the Orthodox Church allows divorce and remarriage up to three times, something which I simply do not feel comfortable with.
Divorce and remarriage is not a right or something you are entitled to, it is indulgences and mercy, in other words the priest can refuse you.

Furthermore, it is very very rare for faithful orthodox families to divorse, we have some of the most solid marriages in the world. Usually it is the secular people that ask for divorce, the ones that visit the church total of 4-5 times, to get baptized as babies, to marry, to remarry and to be buried.

Also in roman catholicism annulments are not even limited to 2 times, you can have as many as you want.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 09:13:15 AM by Vanhyo »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2018, 01:37:46 PM »
Furthermore, it is very very rare for faithful orthodox families to divorse, we have some of the most solid marriages in the world. Usually it is the secular people that ask for divorce, the ones that visit the church total of 4-5 times, to get baptized as babies, to marry, to remarry and to be buried.

No True Scotsmandox.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 01:40:27 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Luke

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2018, 02:39:26 PM »
Hello everybody, a little background.

I did not grow up religious, but about a decade ago a co-worker invited me to his church one Sunday and I decided to go. It was a Fundamentalist Baptist church and to make a long story short I ended up being baptized as a Baptist and was with the church for two years. Then, after getting deep into Church history I decided to make the move towards Catholicism (a decision which understandably alienated me from many of my Baptist friends). Welp, I've been Catholic for these last few years now and I've enjoyed my time. However, I'm getting extremely fed up with the increasing liberalization of the Church.

I've been heavily considering going east, but I'm still a little held back. From my understanding, the Orthodox Church allows divorce and remarriage up to three times, something which I simply do not feel comfortable with. Could anyone clarify this for me? Also, sometimes I'm afraid for my conscience, as it has been told to me that knowingly leaving the Catholic Church puts my soul in danger of hell for schism.

Divorce might be allowed as an act of mercy, but it is not encouraged.  Let us say that somebody goes to a priest and says that the spouse burned some toast; therefore, there should be a divorce.  The priest would not allow it.  Now let us say that someone goes to a priest and says the spouse has been abusive for the past few years.  It may be allowed in that case.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2018, 04:58:30 PM »
Yes, I know, people will be quick to outline how the Catholic church´s annulment regulations are resulting in the same or worse at the end of the day.
I'd say that Annulment makes sense to the Latin Catholic Church and its theology on the Sacrament of Marriage.  What doesn't make sense is that Rome imposes Annulment on the Eastern Catholic Churches, whose theology on the Mystery of Marriage is quite different and does not allow for an annulment, at least one based on the freedom in the response of the bride and groom at the ceremony.

Another point: It's not that the results of the annulment regulations are the same as divorce; Catholic "annulment" is the same as divorce. "Annulment" is divorce. Let's be clear on that...
I think that we have to take the Catholic Church in her own terms.  Even civil law grants annulments and they are not legally the same as divorce.  She doesn't say that an annulment is a divorce and gladly welcomes couples whose previous marriage was annulled to the Sacrament of Marriage.  If this is some sort of Roman Oikonomia, so be it.

not to mention that at least in the Archdiocese of Chicago, you MUST have a civil divorce before you can seek an annulment.
Having seen first hand how painful a divorce is to those who are practicing Catholics, having to deal with the emotional and spiritual anguish at the same time, the Catholic Church should get involved in the marriage crisis, even to grant an annulment, before a divorce takes place.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 05:04:51 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2018, 05:12:06 PM »
Do Eastern Catholic Churches do the "three divorces" thing like the Orthodox?
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2018, 06:20:56 PM »
Do Eastern Catholic Churches do the "three divorces" thing like the Orthodox?
Quote from: 1990 Code of Canons of Oriental churches, Canon 853
The sacramental bond of marriage for a consummated marriage cannot be dissolved by any human power nor by any cause other than death.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2018, 06:39:49 PM »
Do Eastern Catholic Churches do the "three divorces" thing like the Orthodox?
Quote from: 1990 Code of Canons of Oriental churches, Canon 853
The sacramental bond of marriage for a consummated marriage cannot be dissolved by any human power nor by any cause other than death.

Ok, thanks.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2018, 07:38:12 PM »

Another point: It's not that the results of the annulment regulations are the same as divorce; Catholic "annulment" is the same as divorce. "Annulment" is divorce. Let's be clear on that...
I think that we have to take the Catholic Church in her own terms.  Even civil law grants annulments and they are not legally the same as divorce.  She doesn't say that an annulment is a divorce and gladly welcomes couples whose previous marriage was annulled to the Sacrament of Marriage.  If this is some sort of Roman Oikonomia, so be it.

They can play whatever mind games they like among themselves, but when they come on an Orthodox forum and brandish their sophistry as a polemical bludgeon and a mark of their faithfulness, as they do on this thread, then I will always point out that the emperor has no clothes. Yes, I am aware of the logical contortions they employ to argue that their divorces are not divorces; likewise i’ve heard arguments from intelligence officers about how torture is actually “enhanced interrogation techniques”. I treat them both with the same respect.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 07:38:32 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
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Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2018, 12:24:31 AM »
I keep getting messages from those apart of the "Genuine Orthodox". Are they a splinter group? Ever since I made this thread I've had some private messaging me urging me to steer clear of "world orthodoxy."
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 12:29:51 AM by Isaiah53IsMessiah »
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Offline recent convert

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2018, 12:58:59 AM »
I keep getting messages from those apart of the "Genuine Orthodox". Are they a splinter group? Ever since I made this thread I've had some private messaging me urging me to steer clear of "world orthodoxy."
Any grouping that says the canonical Orthodox are “world orthodoxy” should be avoided.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Close to converting to Orthodoxy.
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2018, 12:59:25 AM »
I keep getting messages from those apart of the "Genuine Orthodox". Are they a splinter group? Ever since I made this thread I've had some private messaging me urging me to steer clear of "world orthodoxy."

The Genuine Orthodox or True Orthodox are a bunch of little splinter churches that separated from the rest of Orthodoxy in the 20s in response to the New Calendar (which is why they're often called Old Calendarists) and to Orthodox Churches being involved in ecumenical dialogs like the World Council of Churches.

They've continued to splinter off from one another since then and they often (though not always) deny that the "World Orthodox" have salvation, real sacraments, etc.

I mean, a lot of them are good people. Just, you know, take that for what it's worth.
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