Author Topic: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038  (Read 781 times)

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Offline Volnutt

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"Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« on: April 18, 2018, 07:09:38 PM »
Orthodox believe that baptism justifies the believer and imputes righteousness; washes away all sin.

Agreed. I think the only real difference with traditional Protestant soteriology on that score is quibbling over what constitutes faith and what constitutes works- a debate I quit caring about a while ago.

Or, "In which Volnutt proves himself a massive hypocrite." lol


So, in another thread we find this quote from Pope Leo I (emphasis mine):

We have learned from divine precepts, dearly beloved, as well from things laid down by the apostles, that every human being situated along the hazards of this life must seek the mercy of God by being merciful. What hope would lift up the fallen, what medicine heal the wounded, if almsgiving did not remit faults, and needs of the poor did not become remedies of sin? So by saying "Blessed are the merciful, for God will have mercy on them," (Matt. 5:7) the Lord made it clear that the entire scale on which he is going to judge the whole world when he appears in his majesty would be tilted while hanging from the following balance: Only the quality of good works directed toward the destitute would determine the sentence (for the ungodly to burn with the devil, for the generous to reign with Christ).

What deeds will not be brought out at that time? What hidden things will not be disclosed? What consciences will not lie open? No one then "will glory in having a pure heart or in being unstained by sin." (Prov. 20:9) But since "mercy will be exalted over condemnation" (James 2:13) and the gifts of clemency will surpass any just compensation, all the lives led by mortals and all different kinds of actions will be appraised under the aspect of a single rule. No charges at all would be brought up where, in the acknowledgment of the Creator, works of compassion have been found. As for those on the left, this is not the only thing they have done that will be brought against them. No, the fact that it will be shown that they have been strangers to human feeling does not mean that they will be found alien to other sins. Rather, though standing accused on many grounds, they will be condemned primarily on this count, that they have not redeemed their crimes with any alms. (Dan. 4:24) Since only the hardest heart would fail to be moved by any misery at all among those in distress, and since someone who has the means but does not help the afflicted must be considered as unjust as the one who crushes the weak, what hope remains for sinners who do not even show mercy for the sake of obtaining it themselves?

-- St. Leo of Rome (d. 461), Sermon 11

So, does this leave open the door for someone to "game the system?" Say, for example, somebody who is glutinous or sexually immoral and gleefully thumbs his nose at God in those areas, but is very moved by the plight of the poor and does all kinds of works of charity? Or how about somebody who strives for the poor but has absolutely no faith in God whatsoever, or who maybe is actually an atheist (sometimes I feel like some very liberal Christians edge into this when they say things like "loving God is loving your neighbor, with no remainder")?

How does this match up with Paul's admonition that giving your body to be burned matters not if you have not love?
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Offline Antonis

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2018, 07:18:00 PM »
https://iconreader.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/the-charitabl-fornicator/

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In Russian Icons of the Last Judgment dating from the 16th centuries onward, there appears at the bottom a naked man bound to a great pillar. Neither in Gehenna nor in Paradise, this man is known as the “Charitable Fornicator” (милостивый блудник)

 :)
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2018, 08:07:16 PM »
https://iconreader.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/the-charitabl-fornicator/

Quote
In Russian Icons of the Last Judgment dating from the 16th centuries onward, there appears at the bottom a naked man bound to a great pillar. Neither in Gehenna nor in Paradise, this man is known as the “Charitable Fornicator” (милостивый блудник)

 :)

That... rather raises more questions than it answers lol. What is this guy's eternal fate supposed to be? Will he spend an eternity in between Paradise and Gehenna? Is there some third eternal state in Orthodoxy like there is in Mormonism? Or is he just having an "easy time of it" right now because of his works and he'll ultimately go to the Lake of Fire?

Conversant to St. Paul, it seems like it would make more sense to say that he went to Hell regardless of his charitable works since not repenting of his adultery would signal that he didn't really love God at all but was ultimately just doing his kind deeds for some other reason.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Online Asteriktos

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2018, 08:25:11 PM »
To give a bit more context to the Sermon: "Known together as the De Collectis (Concerning the Collections), Sermons 6-11 deal with the annual collection of alms taken up for the sick and the poor of Rome." (Source)  So it's understandable that St. Leo might have been a little more heavy handed than usual in his attempts to emphasize and inspire having a charitable attitude and conduct.

I think this is one of those cases where the emphasis is more poetic than dogmatic. Or put another way, theology is a symphony and this is one flourish; we're meant to take notice of it, but not think that it is the entire symphony by itself, however much it might sound definitive. We could say the same thing about the virtues that Met. Kallistos said about the way we discuss salvation in general:

"...the Orthodox Church has never formally endorsed any particular theory of atonement. The Greek Fathers, following the New Testament, employ a rich variety of images to describe what the Savior has done for us. These models are not mutually exclusive; on the contrary, each needs to be balanced by the others." (How Are We Saved?, p. 48)

I think passages like this in St. Leo, or the one of St. Gregory (Oration 40.19) which seems to indicate that a single virtue will suffice, or even the words of Jesus: "Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much" (Luke 7:47), are meant to be taken as inspirational and edifying, rather than a how-to for salvation. I think such statements are made with the assumption that someone who has Christian faith won't stop with a virtue or two, or confining themselves to a small range of charitable activities, while blithely continuing on in sinful ways.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 08:27:04 PM by Asteriktos »
get rekt, nerd

Offline Iconodule

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2018, 08:31:30 PM »
Charitable fornicator... is that someone who dates Bronies or something?
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2018, 10:07:11 PM »
The other "loophole", so to speak, is to never judge anyone. March 30 in the Prologue of Ohrid has the story of the monk who never judged anyone in his life, and so the angels had to tear up the long list of his sins because the Lord said "Stop judging and you will not be judged."

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2018, 01:37:57 AM »
To give a bit more context to the Sermon: "Known together as the De Collectis (Concerning the Collections), Sermons 6-11 deal with the annual collection of alms taken up for the sick and the poor of Rome." (Source)  So it's understandable that St. Leo might have been a little more heavy handed than usual in his attempts to emphasize and inspire having a charitable attitude and conduct.

I think this is one of those cases where the emphasis is more poetic than dogmatic. Or put another way, theology is a symphony and this is one flourish; we're meant to take notice of it, but not think that it is the entire symphony by itself, however much it might sound definitive. We could say the same thing about the virtues that Met. Kallistos said about the way we discuss salvation in general:

"...the Orthodox Church has never formally endorsed any particular theory of atonement. The Greek Fathers, following the New Testament, employ a rich variety of images to describe what the Savior has done for us. These models are not mutually exclusive; on the contrary, each needs to be balanced by the others." (How Are We Saved?, p. 48)

I think passages like this in St. Leo, or the one of St. Gregory (Oration 40.19) which seems to indicate that a single virtue will suffice, or even the words of Jesus: "Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much" (Luke 7:47), are meant to be taken as inspirational and edifying, rather than a how-to for salvation. I think such statements are made with the assumption that someone who has Christian faith won't stop with a virtue or two, or confining themselves to a small range of charitable activities, while blithely continuing on in sinful ways.

Yeah, I suppose that this is the best interpretation.
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2018, 03:52:03 PM »
Luther had the printing press. Just when he needed it. Its like the internet for those who dont know history.

Offline pasadi97

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2018, 04:45:43 PM »
Neither faith neither work will matter if protestants don't become immortal by coming to Eastern Orthodox Church. John 6:53-54
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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2018, 05:49:30 PM »
Neither faith neither work will matter if protestants don't become immortal by coming to Eastern Orthodox Church. John 6:53-54
They severed there ties with the RCC years ago. For good reason. What makes you think they would look back?

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2018, 06:38:48 PM »
Luther had the printing press. Just when he needed it. Its like the internet for those who dont know history.

And this is germane how, exactly?
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Antonis

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2018, 07:37:58 PM »
LOL. Poor Volnutt. No good thread topic left unpunished.

How has Antonis not become an Old Calendarist yet?
I thought he had, a few posts ago.

"I hate the poor." --Mor Ephrem

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2018, 07:56:12 PM »
LOL. Poor Volnutt. No good thread topic left unpunished.

lol, it is penance from God for my sins of low content posts in everybody else's threads ;)
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2018, 04:12:13 AM »
Luther had the printing press. Just when he needed it. Its like the internet for those who dont know history.

And this is germane how, exactly?
I think you would appreciate the author Eric Metaxas. He is a greek / german /american.
You can skip to 32:00. For your answer. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gQD52TMgjnI

Offline Volnutt

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2018, 04:46:17 AM »
No, I really don't appreciate Metaxas. He's nothing but a political hack.

I do know all about how the Reformation would not have been possible without the printing press (among other historical developments at the time), though. I just don't think it has anything to do with the question that began this thread.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2018, 07:31:53 PM »
No, I really don't appreciate Metaxas. He's nothing but a political hack.

I do know all about how the Reformation would not have been possible without the printing press (among other historical developments at the time), though. I just don't think it has anything to do with the question that began this thread.
Your correct. I was just trying to clarify a point brought up earlier. 

Going back to your original questions.  My feeling is that faith and works go hand in hand. If we do works or faith alone we fall into sin. Works alone is an outward expression of what the other person thinks of us. Its based on pride and is engaged in the pursuit of what we want to portray but inwardly we dont actually care for the actual work preformed.  Even if it actually helps others.

Faith alone is asking god to do all the work for us. Putting our hands up and saying lord its up to you. Please save me.
In this we see a giving up, i cant do it Lord.  I try but my will isnt strong enough and I need you to take over.
This is sinful because man is expected to do his fair share.  To contribute to others. Family,  friends and colleagues who are in need of works.
Your brother or sister is in need. Do you neglect that need and put your hands up. Or Do you put on the tool belt. Do the best you can do and let god fill in the pieces.  You see? Faith and works are parts of the same process.

I have an obstacle before me. Do I put my hands up? Or do I try my best and if my best isnt go enough god than intervenes. That is true faith.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2018, 07:05:37 PM »
No, I really don't appreciate Metaxas. He's nothing but a political hack.

I do know all about how the Reformation would not have been possible without the printing press (among other historical developments at the time), though. I just don't think it has anything to do with the question that began this thread.
Your correct. I was just trying to clarify a point brought up earlier. 

Going back to your original questions.  My feeling is that faith and works go hand in hand. If we do works or faith alone we fall into sin. Works alone is an outward expression of what the other person thinks of us. Its based on pride and is engaged in the pursuit of what we want to portray but inwardly we dont actually care for the actual work preformed.  Even if it actually helps others.

Faith alone is asking god to do all the work for us. Putting our hands up and saying lord its up to you. Please save me.
In this we see a giving up, i cant do it Lord.  I try but my will isnt strong enough and I need you to take over.
This is sinful because man is expected to do his fair share.  To contribute to others. Family,  friends and colleagues who are in need of works.
Your brother or sister is in need. Do you neglect that need and put your hands up. Or Do you put on the tool belt. Do the best you can do and let god fill in the pieces.  You see? Faith and works are parts of the same process.

I have an obstacle before me. Do I put my hands up? Or do I try my best and if my best isnt go enough god than intervenes. That is true faith.

Yeah, the Mormons say the same thing, "Saved by grace after all we can do." The only problem is that we don't know when we've done all we can do. We're always going to have some laziness or ulterior motive that we don't realize (I think St. Nicodemus of Athos talks about that, being condemning for sins you willfully forgot). So, if something really depends on us then it seems like our situation is truly hopeless no matter how much God loves us.

Then again, this is the same logic that has inclined me towards Calvinism at various points in my life.
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Onesimus

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2018, 12:22:12 AM »
Who gives us good works to walk in?

God Himself. 

We participate in what is given to us to do, and in this way participate in His love...and this is the great secret; the gift of works He gives us to do not only unleash love to others, but they can help to transform our heart and teach us about love by experiencing and participating in sacrificial Love (sometimes to a small degree, sometimes to a great degree - to each as he/she is capable of receiving grace).  Thus, we are saved by grace.   

What we are given to do by God in faith and love transforms us.  Works done outside of faith have their own reward.   “I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.” (Matthew 6:2).  There is no “gaming the system.”   But works done in faith, even faith as small as a mustard seed, have a potentiating and symbiotic effect. 

When our faith is weak, our works can engender and fortify weak faith.   There is an old saying that sometimes illustrates this; “motivation follows action.”   If I don’t want to pray, I might do a few prostrations, and soon, my bodily action can draw my idle soul into prayer - because what the body does, draws the soul to it - whether good or bad.  Likewise, if I am not particularly loving, but I have faith and am acting in faith that God will accomplish His will in me, alms can Unleash more love within me by the grace of the work given.   

The alms given us to do by God save us not because we are righteous as if they were from us—since all things are from Him...we ought rather say “for this purpose I was born” or “not my will, but your will be done”or  “ I am only an unworthy servant.”   

they save us because —- to the extent we participate in them in love and faith; is the extent we allow ourselves to transformed by the the grace of God and be drawn into learning selfless sacrifice and walking to some degree in the life of Christ.  In this way, God gives grace upon grace which can snowball into an avalanche.   

As St. James says clearly, faith and works are active together, perfecting (making more complete) faith.   The works are themselves a grace (gift) from God.   We will be judged according to the response to grace....in this case the grace of God is manifest / or “quenched” in the works He has prepared for us to do.   

I suspect that St Leo is encouraging participating in works of faith knowing that they can draw people to God - just as participating in works of the flesh draw people away from God.   His encouragement is not legalistic, but didactic.   


Offline Volnutt

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2018, 09:25:22 PM »
Who gives us good works to walk in?

God Himself. 

We participate in what is given to us to do, and in this way participate in His love...and this is the great secret; the gift of works He gives us to do not only unleash love to others, but they can help to transform our heart and teach us about love by experiencing and participating in sacrificial Love (sometimes to a small degree, sometimes to a great degree - to each as he/she is capable of receiving grace).  Thus, we are saved by grace.   

What we are given to do by God in faith and love transforms us.  Works done outside of faith have their own reward.   “I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.” (Matthew 6:2).  There is no “gaming the system.”   But works done in faith, even faith as small as a mustard seed, have a potentiating and symbiotic effect. 

When our faith is weak, our works can engender and fortify weak faith.   There is an old saying that sometimes illustrates this; “motivation follows action.”   If I don’t want to pray, I might do a few prostrations, and soon, my bodily action can draw my idle soul into prayer - because what the body does, draws the soul to it - whether good or bad.  Likewise, if I am not particularly loving, but I have faith and am acting in faith that God will accomplish His will in me, alms can Unleash more love within me by the grace of the work given.   

The alms given us to do by God save us not because we are righteous as if they were from us—since all things are from Him...we ought rather say “for this purpose I was born” or “not my will, but your will be done”or  “ I am only an unworthy servant.”   

they save us because —- to the extent we participate in them in love and faith; is the extent we allow ourselves to transformed by the the grace of God and be drawn into learning selfless sacrifice and walking to some degree in the life of Christ.  In this way, God gives grace upon grace which can snowball into an avalanche.   

As St. James says clearly, faith and works are active together, perfecting (making more complete) faith.   The works are themselves a grace (gift) from God.   We will be judged according to the response to grace....in this case the grace of God is manifest / or “quenched” in the works He has prepared for us to do.   

I suspect that St Leo is encouraging participating in works of faith knowing that they can draw people to God - just as participating in works of the flesh draw people away from God.   His encouragement is not legalistic, but didactic.

I guess I just have a tendency to get stuck on trying to locate the line between when its ok to have faith the size of a mustard seed and when you lose out because you haven't snowballed enough. "Be perfect as your Father is Heaven is perfect" is a tall order and "With men this is impossible but with God all things are possible" doesn't necessarily help mollify it any.

I suppose this is why Sola Fide was developed in the first place, heh. Of course, the issue there is knowing when you actually have faith...
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Volnutt

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2018, 09:07:35 PM »
So, I'd like to hear from any Protestants out there (others can answer as well), do you ever wonder if you really have true faith?

My endless lust for equivocation wants to say that my issues with the whole faith-works tension in Orthodoxy can be solved by finding some way to say that Protestantism is really "just the same" in terms of uncertainty. It seems like the apparent certainty offered by Sola fide might collapse if one could never be certain that they really had faith (this is probably more directed at non-Puritans, I think once you introduce the Puritan reflex syllogism into things, certainty of salvation really does become a practical impossibility).
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Brilko

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2018, 09:28:59 PM »
So, I'd like to hear from any Protestants out there (others can answer as well), do you ever wonder if you really have true faith?

If I’m looking at my faith, how can I remove me from the equation? How firm a foundation can I really be? It seems to me that total assurance must melt away. I’m just floating in the wreckage and hoping that the search and rescue team picks me up.

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2018, 09:36:48 PM »
So, I'd like to hear from any Protestants out there (others can answer as well), do you ever wonder if you really have true faith?

If I’m looking at my faith, how can I remove me from the equation? How firm a foundation can I really be? It seems to me that total assurance must melt away. I’m just floating in the wreckage and hoping that the search and rescue team picks me up.

My problem with that is that it would seem that logically everybody would be saved. It's not like the search and rescue team could ever fail to find someone, right (I mean, I'd love to embrace universalism as a certainty, but that would put me outside from the point of view of both Orthodox and typical Protestants)?

I do agree that it's hard to lay a foundation on yourself in any sense. I mean, yes faith is a gift of God, but finding evidence of it in oneself seems exceptionally difficult too.
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Offline Brilko

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2018, 11:28:55 PM »
So, I'd like to hear from any Protestants out there (others can answer as well), do you ever wonder if you really have true faith?

If I’m looking at my faith, how can I remove me from the equation? How firm a foundation can I really be? It seems to me that total assurance must melt away. I’m just floating in the wreckage and hoping that the search and rescue team picks me up.

My problem with that is that it would seem that logically everybody would be saved. It's not like the search and rescue team could ever fail to find someone, right (I mean, I'd love to embrace universalism as a certainty, but that would put me outside from the point of view of both Orthodox and typical Protestants)?

I do agree that it's hard to lay a foundation on yourself in any sense. I mean, yes faith is a gift of God, but finding evidence of it in oneself seems exceptionally difficult too.

The search and rescue team might find everyone, but what about those who refuse? Will they be tranqed and tagged like a tiger on Wild Kingdom? (♫Mutual of Omaha is people...who will take you whether you want to go or no-o-ot. ♫) I wouldn’t embrace universalism as a certainty. In fact, I think it unlikely. Look at how stiff-necked and rebellious the Christians and the Jews are.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 03:01:50 AM »
I struggle with the idea that human stubbornness could ever triumph over the love of God (isn't He who made us capable of persuading and seducing us?)

But either way, I have a problem getting away from the Calvinist suspicion that making anything in salvation depend on our wills makes us, ipso facto, the authors of our own salvation.
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Agabus

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 09:11:32 AM »
So, I'd like to hear from any Protestants out there (others can answer as well), do you ever wonder if you really have true faith?

My endless lust for equivocation wants to say that my issues with the whole faith-works tension in Orthodoxy can be solved by finding some way to say that Protestantism is really "just the same" in terms of uncertainty. It seems like the apparent certainty offered by Sola fide might collapse if one could never be certain that they really had faith (this is probably more directed at non-Puritans, I think once you introduce the Puritan reflex syllogism into things, certainty of salvation really does become a practical impossibility).

Hence the evangelists of my childhood: "Are you sure that you're sure that you're sure that you're saved?"
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: "Faith vs. Works" thread #4829038
« Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 03:31:37 PM »
So, I'd like to hear from any Protestants out there (others can answer as well), do you ever wonder if you really have true faith?

My endless lust for equivocation wants to say that my issues with the whole faith-works tension in Orthodoxy can be solved by finding some way to say that Protestantism is really "just the same" in terms of uncertainty. It seems like the apparent certainty offered by Sola fide might collapse if one could never be certain that they really had faith (this is probably more directed at non-Puritans, I think once you introduce the Puritan reflex syllogism into things, certainty of salvation really does become a practical impossibility).

Hence the evangelists of my childhood: "Are you sure that you're sure that you're sure that you're saved?"

Which leads to things like the "anxious bench" of the Great Awakening and the obsession with emotional experiences as proof (which itself would eventually morph into Pentecostalism).
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things