Author Topic: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?  (Read 2123 times)

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Offline Volnutt

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Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« on: February 13, 2018, 05:36:40 AM »
In the "Miracles of the Saints" thread, Wandile posted some quotes from Padre Pio including this one:

Quote
"The souls in Purgatory pray for us, and their prayers are even more effective than ours, because they are accompanied by their suffering. So, let's pray for them, and let's pray them to pray for us."

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that in Orthodoxy the dead in the intermediate state (to whatever extent this can be mapped on to an idea that one might call "Purgatory") are not capable of calling on God. In fact, it's one of the arguments for why they need the prayers of the living.

I seem to recall Father H arguing something like this once upon a time, but I have no idea where the thread is.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 05:40:18 AM by Volnutt »
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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2018, 07:40:26 AM »
In the Catholic-Orthodox discussions at Florence, it was not discussed because it was uncertain. I personally believe, as St. Padre Pio said, that the souls in purgatory pray for us. The only thing the Catholic Church defined in Florence is that there is a purgatorial state and that the souls detained there are assisted by the prayers and suffrages of the Church and the faithful, especially the Holy Sacrifice. The main objection of the Greek Church at Florence seemed to be based on the nature of purgatorial fire.
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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2018, 05:00:37 PM »
In the "Miracles of the Saints" thread, Wandile posted some quotes from Padre Pio including this one:

Quote
"The souls in Purgatory pray for us, and their prayers are even more effective than ours, because they are accompanied by their suffering. So, let's pray for them, and let's pray them to pray for us."

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that in Orthodoxy the dead in the intermediate state (to whatever extent this can be mapped on to an idea that one might call "Purgatory") are not capable of calling on God. In fact, it's one of the arguments for why they need the prayers of the living.

I seem to recall Father H arguing something like this once upon a time, but I have no idea where the thread is.


I mean I wasn't even aware there was an "intermediate state" in Orthodoxy, tbh. Then again, I don't know much, so......
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2018, 05:19:26 PM »
In the "Miracles of the Saints" thread, Wandile posted some quotes from Padre Pio including this one:

Quote
"The souls in Purgatory pray for us, and their prayers are even more effective than ours, because they are accompanied by their suffering. So, let's pray for them, and let's pray them to pray for us."

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that in Orthodoxy the dead in the intermediate state (to whatever extent this can be mapped on to an idea that one might call "Purgatory") are not capable of calling on God. In fact, it's one of the arguments for why they need the prayers of the living.

I seem to recall Father H arguing something like this once upon a time, but I have no idea where the thread is.


I mean I wasn't even aware there was an "intermediate state" in Orthodoxy, tbh. Then again, I don't know much, so......

Maybe it's different in OOxy?

From the Confession of St. Dositheus, drafted by the 1672 Synod of Jerusalem:

Quote
The souls of the departed are either at rest or in torment, according to their conduct in life; but their condition will not be perfect till the resurrection of the body. The souls of those who die in a state of penitence (μετανοήσαντες), without having brought forth fruits of repentance, or satisfactions (ἱκανοποίησις), depart into Hades (ἀπέρχεσθαι εἰς ᾄδου), and there they must suffer the punishment for their sins; but they may be delivered by the prayers of the priests and the alms of their kindred, especially by the unbloody sacrifice of the mass (μαγάλα δυναμένης μάλιστα τῆς ἀναιμάκτου θυσίας), which individuals offer for their departed relatives, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church daily offers for all alike. The liberation from this intervening state of purification will take place before the resurrection and the general judgment, but the time is unknown.

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds1.v.vii.html

There's also the Greek custom of praying and eating koliva (wheat grains with honey) on behalf of one's departed relatives. It doesn't quite rise to the same level as RCC Purgatory with its created fire and exact levels of so many years for such and such a sin, but it's not not there in Eastern Orthodoxy.


And regarding the statement of Padre Pio, it would seem to me that if the dead can pray, then the Confession wouldn't really need the "without having brought forth fruits of repentance" line, because the dead should be able to just do that themselves, I would think (then again, my idea of what that clause means might be inaccurate, it's something I've never understood too well, and of course the Confession is from a local synod so not exactly infallible itself AFAICT).

Of course, that doesn't preclude the living needing to pray and say Mass for them just to make it easier for the dead to bring forth their repentance.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 05:22:08 PM by Volnutt »
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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2018, 05:27:17 PM »
Do even Catholics themselves believe in purgatory anymore? It seems that the version with fire and punishments has fallen out of fashion. Of course it is explained by the supposed idea that fire and punishments were never doctrinized but that seems blatantly wrong when reading certain council texts.
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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2018, 12:45:42 PM »
Hard to say.. but there is something going on, here is a an interesting story

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2019, 12:40:33 AM »
Do even Catholics themselves believe in purgatory anymore? It seems that the version with fire and punishments has fallen out of fashion. Of course it is explained by the supposed idea that fire and punishments were never doctrinized but that seems blatantly wrong when reading certain council texts.
traditional  Catholics  of course believe in purgatory, as for the modernists who call themselves catholics it doesn matter what they believe

In the Council of Florence, which began at Ferrara an. 1438. The Greeks at the very first
declared they admitted a third place, where souls were punished for a time, which they called a place of
darkness and sorrow. See Labb. tom. xiii. Con. p. 20. Græci fatentur pænam temporaneam, quod
peccatis obnoxiorum animæ in locum abeunt tenebricosum, in locum mæroris, in quo, ad tempus,
versantur in mœrore & pænis, εις τοπον σκοτεινον, και τοπον λυπης, και λυπουνται μερικως. —
Again, Hæc est inter eos differentia: Græci pœnam, mærorem, & pœnæ locum asserunt, Itali pænam,
purgationemque per ignem. See again p. 491. Sess. 25. where the Greeks say of such souls, that they are
in a middle state, medias autem esse in loco tormentorum, sed sive ignis sit, sive caligo, sive turbo, sive
quid aliud, non contendimus. See also the definition of the Council, p. 515. where it is only defined,
eorum animas pœnis purgatoriis post mortem purgari, & ut a pœnis hujusmodi releventur, prodesse
vivorum suffragia, which was the doctrine both of the Greek and Latin Church. See on this place of S.
Paul, Bellarm. lib. i. de Purgatorio, c. 5. Salmeron disp. 6. in l. ad Corint. Estius, a Lapide, etc.

Offline isxodnik

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2019, 03:23:30 AM »
There is no place for purgatory in the Orthodox faith.
There is a private judgment after death, and stay in hell or Paradise.
There is an opportunity to improve the fate of the deceased through the prayers of the living.
There will be a last judgment at the end of time with the final determination of each person to God or to the devil.
That's it.
Only saints in Paradise can pray for the living. If anyone in hell tries to pray, who will listen?

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2019, 09:40:33 AM »
Interesting . . . There seems to be a purgatorial cleansing fire.
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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2019, 12:05:55 PM »
There is no place for purgatory in the Orthodox faith.

Did Pope Gregory the Great not hold the Orthodox Faith? “Each one will be presented to the Judge exactly as he was when he departed this life. Yet, there must be a cleansing fire before judgment, because of some minor faults that may remain to be purged away ... This must apply, as I said, to slight transgressions.” [Dialogues 4:39]. In Dialogues, the Dialogist makes clear that belief in Purgatory is “established” (constat), and “to be believed” (credendum), insisting however, that the Purgatorial fire can only purify away minor transgressions, as hay, wood and stubble in 1 Cor 3:12, not “iron, bronze, or lead,” or other “hardened” (duriora) sins."

Quote
There is a private judgment after death, and stay in hell or Paradise.

Okay, but those in Paradise have no need of our prayers. Those in hell, if their fate is irremediable, cannot benefit from it. If those from a temporary "hell" can indeed be liberated by the prayers of the Church before the final judgment, then you are just calling as "hell" what we call Purgatory - where souls go to be cleansed before the final Judgment, as St. Augustine, St. Cyprian, St. Gregory, St. Caesarius, St. Isidore and several other Saints teach.

Quote
There is an opportunity to improve the fate of the deceased through the prayers of the living.

Great. But then this leads to either (1) Universalism, because then it seems all souls could be saved, and St. Paul says some souls are "saved, yet so as by fire" - if the Church can pray for all the departed to be saved, is universalism possible and true? or (2) Purgatory, where only those whose sins were not so severe as to be incapable of forgiveness (the Lord often speaks of a Prison from which no one will get out till he pays the last penny (Mat 5:26), he implies some sins are forgiven in the next life, but other sins are too grave to be forgiven (Mat 12:32) etc)

Quote
There will be a last judgment at the end of time with the final determination of each person to God or to the devil.

Agreed.

Quote
Only saints in Paradise can pray for the living. If anyone in hell tries to pray, who will listen?

If God intends still to save those in "hell", then they are His friends, although in need of purification. So, why may He not listen to them?

"It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory: it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost penny; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tormented by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord.” St. Cyprian, To Antonianus, Epistle 51 (55):20 (A.D. 253).
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Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2019, 07:42:03 PM »
Do even Catholics themselves believe in purgatory anymore? It seems that the version with fire and punishments has fallen out of fashion. Of course it is explained by the supposed idea that fire and punishments were never doctrinized but that seems blatantly wrong when reading certain council texts.
traditional  Catholics  of course believe in purgatory, as for the modernists who call themselves catholics it doesn matter what they believe

In the Council of Florence, which began at Ferrara an. 1438. The Greeks at the very first
declared they admitted a third place, where souls were punished for a time, which they called a place of
darkness and sorrow. See Labb. tom. xiii. Con. p. 20. Græci fatentur pænam temporaneam, quod
peccatis obnoxiorum animæ in locum abeunt tenebricosum, in locum mæroris, in quo, ad tempus,
versantur in mœrore & pænis, εις τοπον σκοτεινον, και τοπον λυπης, και λυπουνται μερικως. —
Again, Hæc est inter eos differentia: Græci pœnam, mærorem, & pœnæ locum asserunt, Itali pænam,
purgationemque per ignem. See again p. 491. Sess. 25. where the Greeks say of such souls, that they are
in a middle state, medias autem esse in loco tormentorum, sed sive ignis sit, sive caligo, sive turbo, sive
quid aliud, non contendimus. See also the definition of the Council, p. 515. where it is only defined,
eorum animas pœnis purgatoriis post mortem purgari, & ut a pœnis hujusmodi releventur, prodesse
vivorum suffragia, which was the doctrine both of the Greek and Latin Church. See on this place of S.
Paul, Bellarm. lib. i. de Purgatorio, c. 5. Salmeron disp. 6. in l. ad Corint. Estius, a Lapide, etc.

Added the source of the quotations (always needed!): Annotations on the New Testament of Jesus Christ, p. 82.
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« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 03:45:05 PM by Dominika »

Offline isxodnik

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2019, 10:33:58 PM »
My fault. I answered the question about the "intermediate state in Orthodoxy", and did not pay attention to the fact that the topic is in the section for discussion. Excuse me )

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2019, 04:53:50 AM »
In the "Miracles of the Saints" thread, Wandile posted some quotes from Padre Pio including this one:

Quote
"The souls in Purgatory pray for us, and their prayers are even more effective than ours, because they are accompanied by their suffering. So, let's pray for them, and let's pray them to pray for us."

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that in Orthodoxy the dead in the intermediate state (to whatever extent this can be mapped on to an idea that one might call "Purgatory") are not capable of calling on God. In fact, it's one of the arguments for why they need the prayers of the living.

I seem to recall Father H arguing something like this once upon a time, but I have no idea where the thread is.

Padre Pio is not an Orthodox saint, and that quote looks to me to be entirely wrong and heterodox.

Orthodox soteriology does not embrace the RC concept of Purgatory per se, as traditionally expressed by Catholics, although an alternative purgatorial interpretation we see in Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI comes closer towards agreeing with us.

In the specific case of Padre Pio, I have read articles which suggest that his stigmata were deliberate and he kept them from healing by applying a chemical.  I don’t know if this is true or not, but I have to confess I don’t trust Padre Pio, or Francis of Assisi, among Roman Catholic saints, or Ignatius of Loyola; the three of them seem to be out in left field.  And poor Catharine of Sienna was mentally ill.
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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2019, 04:55:10 AM »
Do even Catholics themselves believe in purgatory anymore? It seems that the version with fire and punishments has fallen out of fashion. Of course it is explained by the supposed idea that fire and punishments were never doctrinized but that seems blatantly wrong when reading certain council texts.

Interesting question.  I hope not, because to the extent this, and related superstitions like the Brown Scapular are upheld, these are obstacles towards reunification with us.  And I really want reunification with the Roman Church.
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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2019, 07:43:26 AM »
Do even Catholics themselves believe in purgatory anymore?

Yes, we do.

Quote
It seems that the version with fire and punishments has fallen out of fashion.

I believe in Fire and in Purifying Purgation. But if Purgatory is a part of Sheol/Hades/Gehenna, as Orthodox views of the intermediate state before Judgment Day seem to be, how can there not be fire in it? Many of the Church Fathers held Hell was under the Earth or in its centre or core. And surely there is fire in hell. That does not preclude divine Power operating upon the soul in various ways.

Quote
Of course it is explained by the supposed idea that fire and punishments were never doctrinized but that seems blatantly wrong when reading certain council texts.

One thing is that devotion to the Holy Souls (both by praying ardently for them, individually and in confraternities, by having Holy Mass and other sacrifices made for them etc) has fallen slightly in recent decades, which is sad; second, that the doctrine is commonly expressed as a real literal fire, but it is not dogmatically defined and so both views (e.g. the fire is of a nature other than what we think, or that it is the purifying Fire of Divine Love like St. Isaac seems to hold etc) are permissible. This is confirmed in the 1911 CE.

For myself, I prefer the way the Lord explained it to St. Faustina, as it gives great urgency both to Priests and Faithful to work for the speedy liberation of souls in the intermediate state, which I think both Catholics and Orthodox (would we, Alpo? - and Alpha?) would agree is the important thing. Also how the Fathers urge us to gain lifelong suffrages on behalf of the departed. Certainly St. Chrysostom and other Fathers, when they say they weep for the departed to give them some alleviation from their pains, seem to suggest as much.

St. John Chryostom: "Let us weep for these; let us assist them according to our power; let us think of some assistance for them, small though it be, yet still let us assist them. How and in what way? By praying and entreating others to make prayers for them, by continually giving to the poor on their behalf.” (Homilies on Phillipians, 3) Prayer, Almsgiving, works of mercy, gaining indulgences and suffrages and other such Sacrifices are to us the best way for even laity to assist the Poor/Holy Souls in the purgative state.

One last question: Do Orthodox believe all the souls who are waiting for judgment can be saved? St. Gregory of Nyssa certainly taught some kind of cleansing fire, whether he distinguished venial and mortal sin is disputed. Catholics hold mortal sin would be final and fatal. Yet, we don't know the interior culpability, and possible contrition, of any soul.

Quote
Eighth Day [Not per se doctrinally binding of course but helpful imho in forming a devout conception of the urgent necessity of relief - https://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/mercy/novena.htm#8]
"Today bring to Me the Souls who are in the prison of Purgatory,

and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. Let the torrents of My Blood cool down their scorching flames. All these souls are greatly loved by Me. They are making retribution to My justice. It is in your power to bring them relief. Draw all the indulgences from the treasury of My Church and offer them on their behalf. Oh, if you only knew the torments they suffer, you would continually offer for them the alms of the spirit and pay off their debt to My justice."   

Most Merciful Jesus, You Yourself have said that You desire mercy; so I bring into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart the souls in Purgatory, souls who are very dear to You, and yet, who must make retribution to Your justice. May the streams of Blood and Water which gushed forth from Your Heart put out the flames of Purgatory, that there, too, the power of Your mercy may be celebrated.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon the souls suffering in Purgatory, who are enfolded in the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. I beg You, by the sorrowful Passion of Jesus Your Son, and by all the bitterness with which His most sacred Soul was flooded: Manifest Your mercy to the souls who are under Your just scrutiny. Look upon them in no other way but only through the Wounds of Jesus, Your dearly beloved Son; for we firmly believe that there is no limit to Your goodness and compassion. Amen.
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Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2019, 02:42:53 AM »
In the "Miracles of the Saints" thread, Wandile posted some quotes from Padre Pio including this one:

Quote
"The souls in Purgatory pray for us, and their prayers are even more effective than ours, because they are accompanied by their suffering. So, let's pray for them, and let's pray them to pray for us."

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that in Orthodoxy the dead in the intermediate state (to whatever extent this can be mapped on to an idea that one might call "Purgatory") are not capable of calling on God. In fact, it's one of the arguments for why they need the prayers of the living.

I seem to recall Father H arguing something like this once upon a time, but I have no idea where the thread is.

Padre Pio is not an Orthodox saint, and that quote looks to me to be entirely wrong and heterodox.

Orthodox soteriology does not embrace the RC concept of Purgatory per se, as traditionally expressed by Catholics, although an alternative purgatorial interpretation we see in Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI comes closer towards agreeing with us.

In the specific case of Padre Pio, I have read articles which suggest that his stigmata were deliberate and he kept them from healing by applying a chemical.  I don’t know if this is true or not, but I have to confess I don’t trust Padre Pio, or Francis of Assisi, among Roman Catholic saints, or Ignatius of Loyola; the three of them seem to be out in left field.  And poor Catharine of Sienna was mentally ill.
you have read articles from satan and have been deceived,

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2019, 02:45:36 PM »
you have read articles from satan and have been deceived,

Welcome back, sedevacantist!

Believe it or not, I agree with you this time (on *some* of your comments, anyway). There are indeed some "Netodox" who don't seem to like Padre Pio, Francis of Assisi, et al, and frankly ISTM it's only because they were RC.

I've read some stories about EO saints (specifically monks and hermits) which sound an awful lot like the Padre Pio stories, but I certainly wouldn't denigrate or make fun of them, since for all I know, devotion to that particular saint might have saved someone's soul.
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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2019, 03:02:29 PM »
I like Padre Pio.

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2019, 03:20:58 PM »
I like Padre Pio.

I tend to like what you like, except for your annoying preference for not closing the sanctuary curtain ;)  - so if you could tell me why I should revise my views on Padre Pio I am prepared to do so.  It is entirely possible the story about his stigmata was a scurrilous lie.

However, I have often come across the point made in Orthodox literature that we have no history of the Stigmata, and I don’t understand if that’s true why Catholic saints would start having Stigmata following St. Francis whereas our saints would not.   However, if you are aware of possible exceptions, that could be very interesting.  I wish Iconodule were around because he has a remarkable knowledge of which aspects of Orthodox polemics are in fact old wive’s tales.
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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2019, 04:54:22 PM »
I like Padre Pio.

I tend to like what you like, except for your annoying preference for not closing the sanctuary curtain ;)

I never expressed such a preference.

Quote
so if you could tell me why I should revise my views on Padre Pio I am prepared to do so.  It is entirely possible the story about his stigmata was a scurrilous lie.

I just said I liked him, not that I expected others to like him.  But they shouldn’t dislike him for nonsensical reasons.

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2019, 05:03:22 PM »
In the "Miracles of the Saints" thread, Wandile posted some quotes from Padre Pio including this one:

Quote
"The souls in Purgatory pray for us, and their prayers are even more effective than ours, because they are accompanied by their suffering. So, let's pray for them, and let's pray them to pray for us."

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that in Orthodoxy the dead in the intermediate state (to whatever extent this can be mapped on to an idea that one might call "Purgatory") are not capable of calling on God. In fact, it's one of the arguments for why they need the prayers of the living.

I seem to recall Father H arguing something like this once upon a time, but I have no idea where the thread is.

Padre Pio is not an Orthodox saint, and that quote looks to me to be entirely wrong and heterodox.

Orthodox soteriology does not embrace the RC concept of Purgatory per se, as traditionally expressed by Catholics, although an alternative purgatorial interpretation we see in Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI comes closer towards agreeing with us.

In the specific case of Padre Pio, I have read articles which suggest that his stigmata were deliberate and he kept them from healing by applying a chemical.  I don’t know if this is true or not, but I have to confess I don’t trust Padre Pio, or Francis of Assisi, among Roman Catholic saints, or Ignatius of Loyola; the three of them seem to be out in left field.  And poor Catharine of Sienna was mentally ill.

Thanks for the response regarding Purgatory.



Near as I can tell, the idea that Padre Pio faked his stigmata is all just based on circumstantial evidence- "Why would he buy carbolic acid if he wasn't faking it?" So, a pretty weak argument.

I like him and Francis and Ignatius (I mostly just feel bad for Catherine) because of their piety and evangelistic zeal and service to the poor. Stigmata just doesn't seem like that big a deal to me- no matter what causes it. Not something to be emphasized and hoped for, unlike what some Pop Catholics seem to do these days. But not something to be focused on as the sole or main reason to reject a figure, either.
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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2019, 06:40:42 PM »
In the "Miracles of the Saints" thread, Wandile posted some quotes from Padre Pio including this one:

Quote
"The souls in Purgatory pray for us, and their prayers are even more effective than ours, because they are accompanied by their suffering. So, let's pray for them, and let's pray them to pray for us."

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that in Orthodoxy the dead in the intermediate state (to whatever extent this can be mapped on to an idea that one might call "Purgatory") are not capable of calling on God. In fact, it's one of the arguments for why they need the prayers of the living.

I seem to recall Father H arguing something like this once upon a time, but I have no idea where the thread is.

Padre Pio is not an Orthodox saint, and that quote looks to me to be entirely wrong and heterodox.

Orthodox soteriology does not embrace the RC concept of Purgatory per se, as traditionally expressed by Catholics, although an alternative purgatorial interpretation we see in Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI comes closer towards agreeing with us.

In the specific case of Padre Pio, I have read articles which suggest that his stigmata were deliberate and he kept them from healing by applying a chemical.  I don’t know if this is true or not, but I have to confess I don’t trust Padre Pio, or Francis of Assisi, among Roman Catholic saints, or Ignatius of Loyola; the three of them seem to be out in left field.  And poor Catharine of Sienna was mentally ill.
you have read articles from satan and have been deceived,

Umm no.   If you agree Francis of Assisi expressed confidence at the end of his life that all his sins had been confessed and repented of, this seems inconsistent with Patristic sentiment (compare Abba Sisoes).

On the other hand, I have no problems recognizing St. Dominic Guzman as a saint, although I reject Thomas Aquinas as a saint for his support of the Inquisition, which is unacceptable as per St. Ambrose of Milan and other saints who objected to the burning of Priscillian.  That said, I comsider Aquinas a brilliant scholar, and respect on a philosophical level his accomplishments, although not so much those of the later Schoolmen, which seem to be largely derivative.  Indeed, one book on my “to buy” list is Orthodox Readings of Thomas Aquinas.   And to be clear, the only reason why I refuse to consider him glorified is his endorsement of the Inquisition; this, and the Albigensian Crusade, were directly contrary to the missionary objectives of St. Dominic and I expect St. Dominic would be dismayed how his Order had corrupted itself after his death, since his goal was to convert the Albigensians voluntarily and not slaughter them or convert them under duress.  That said, the Inquisition is overblown, being responsible only for the death of around 3,000 people or so, and the Russian Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Church (Church of Greece) have similiar black eyes in the persecution of Old Believers in the former and the genocide of Turks following the Greek Revolution, which fueled the fires of hate and may have created the resentment that triggered the Turkish genocide against the Bulgarians in the 1870s, and later genocides against the Armenians, Assyrians and Pontic Greeks.

However, these incidents were of a short duration, whereas the Inquisition dragged on for centuries.  I make a point not to venerate most Russian Orthodox Saints when the persecution of Old Believers was active, and I am not aware of any noteworthy Greek saints of the Revolutionary period, although I am sure they exist.

However, there are a few RC saints who seem worthy of veneration during the Inquisition period.  These include the founders of the ransoming friars, like the Trinitarians, who would pay the ransom of persons abducted by pirates in the middle East.
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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2019, 07:36:26 PM »
Satan writes articles?

Does Satan have to log in like the rest of us?
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works


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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2019, 08:41:51 PM »
Satan writes articles?

Does Satan have to log in like the rest of us?
Depends on who you consider to be Satan.
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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2019, 08:59:11 PM »
Satan writes articles?

Does Satan have to log in like the rest of us?
you haven't figured out the mainstream media is demonic?
Matthew 4:8
Again the devil took him up into a very high mountain, and shewed him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them, 9And said to him: All these will I give thee, if falling down thou wilt adore me.

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2019, 09:02:33 PM »
In the "Miracles of the Saints" thread, Wandile posted some quotes from Padre Pio including this one:

Quote
"The souls in Purgatory pray for us, and their prayers are even more effective than ours, because they are accompanied by their suffering. So, let's pray for them, and let's pray them to pray for us."

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that in Orthodoxy the dead in the intermediate state (to whatever extent this can be mapped on to an idea that one might call "Purgatory") are not capable of calling on God. In fact, it's one of the arguments for why they need the prayers of the living.

I seem to recall Father H arguing something like this once upon a time, but I have no idea where the thread is.

Padre Pio is not an Orthodox saint, and that quote looks to me to be entirely wrong and heterodox.

Orthodox soteriology does not embrace the RC concept of Purgatory per se, as traditionally expressed by Catholics, although an alternative purgatorial interpretation we see in Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI comes closer towards agreeing with us.

In the specific case of Padre Pio, I have read articles which suggest that his stigmata were deliberate and he kept them from healing by applying a chemical.  I don’t know if this is true or not, but I have to confess I don’t trust Padre Pio, or Francis of Assisi, among Roman Catholic saints, or Ignatius of Loyola; the three of them seem to be out in left field.  And poor Catharine of Sienna was mentally ill.
since you wrote this nonsense:
"among Roman Catholic saints, or Ignatius of Loyola; the three of them seem to be out in left field.  And poor Catharine of Sienna was mentally ill."
 I guess I'm free to write the following : Photius was mentally ill, he was out in left field
show me your diabolical article that you think proves St Padre Pio was a fraud....be prepared to be humiliated in front of your friends here

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2019, 09:10:49 PM »
In the "Miracles of the Saints" thread, Wandile posted some quotes from Padre Pio including this one:

Quote
"The souls in Purgatory pray for us, and their prayers are even more effective than ours, because they are accompanied by their suffering. So, let's pray for them, and let's pray them to pray for us."

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that in Orthodoxy the dead in the intermediate state (to whatever extent this can be mapped on to an idea that one might call "Purgatory") are not capable of calling on God. In fact, it's one of the arguments for why they need the prayers of the living.

I seem to recall Father H arguing something like this once upon a time, but I have no idea where the thread is.

Padre Pio is not an Orthodox saint, and that quote looks to me to be entirely wrong and heterodox.

Orthodox soteriology does not embrace the RC concept of Purgatory per se, as traditionally expressed by Catholics, although an alternative purgatorial interpretation we see in Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI comes closer towards agreeing with us.

In the specific case of Padre Pio, I have read articles which suggest that his stigmata were deliberate and he kept them from healing by applying a chemical.  I don’t know if this is true or not, but I have to confess I don’t trust Padre Pio, or Francis of Assisi, among Roman Catholic saints, or Ignatius of Loyola; the three of them seem to be out in left field.  And poor Catharine of Sienna was mentally ill.
since you wrote this nonsense:
"among Roman Catholic saints, or Ignatius of Loyola; the three of them seem to be out in left field.  And poor Catharine of Sienna was mentally ill."
 I guess I'm free to write the following : Photius was mentally ill, he was out in left field
show me your diabolical article that you think proves St Padre Pio was a fraud....be prepared to be humiliated in front of your friends here

Who canonized Padre Pio again?

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2019, 10:15:03 PM »
In the "Miracles of the Saints" thread, Wandile posted some quotes from Padre Pio including this one:

Quote
"The souls in Purgatory pray for us, and their prayers are even more effective than ours, because they are accompanied by their suffering. So, let's pray for them, and let's pray them to pray for us."

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that in Orthodoxy the dead in the intermediate state (to whatever extent this can be mapped on to an idea that one might call "Purgatory") are not capable of calling on God. In fact, it's one of the arguments for why they need the prayers of the living.

I seem to recall Father H arguing something like this once upon a time, but I have no idea where the thread is.

Padre Pio is not an Orthodox saint, and that quote looks to me to be entirely wrong and heterodox.

Orthodox soteriology does not embrace the RC concept of Purgatory per se, as traditionally expressed by Catholics, although an alternative purgatorial interpretation we see in Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI comes closer towards agreeing with us.

In the specific case of Padre Pio, I have read articles which suggest that his stigmata were deliberate and he kept them from healing by applying a chemical.  I don’t know if this is true or not, but I have to confess I don’t trust Padre Pio, or Francis of Assisi, among Roman Catholic saints, or Ignatius of Loyola; the three of them seem to be out in left field.  And poor Catharine of Sienna was mentally ill.
since you wrote this nonsense:
"among Roman Catholic saints, or Ignatius of Loyola; the three of them seem to be out in left field.  And poor Catharine of Sienna was mentally ill."
 I guess I'm free to write the following : Photius was mentally ill, he was out in left field
show me your diabolical article that you think proves St Padre Pio was a fraud....be prepared to be humiliated in front of your friends here

Who canonized Padre Pio again?
an anti pope could do some things correct, he's not going to come out and tell everyone hail satan, every squirrel gets a nut now and then...why not concentrate on his actual life, have you read any books on the saint?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 08:46:21 AM by Dominika »

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2019, 10:37:47 PM »
Satan writes articles?

Does Satan have to log in like the rest of us?
Depends on who you consider to be Satan.

"And Balaam rose up in the boker, and saddled his donkey, and went with the sarim (princes) of Moav. But the Af Elohim (G-d’s anger) was kindled as he was going; and the Malach Hashem stood in the derech (road) l’satan (for an adversary, opposer) against him." (Num. 2:21-22)

Being interpreted by Abba Ronald, this demonstrates that we are all satans.

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2019, 10:56:24 PM »
Satan writes articles?

Does Satan have to log in like the rest of us?
Depends on who you consider to be Satan.

"And Balaam rose up in the boker, and saddled his donkey, and went with the sarim (princes) of Moav. But the Af Elohim (G-d’s anger) was kindled as he was going; and the Malach Hashem stood in the derech (road) l’satan (for an adversary, opposer) against him." (Num. 2:21-22)

Being interpreted by Abba Ronald, this demonstrates that we are all satans.
Can fire or water purify us?
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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2019, 11:02:51 PM »
an anti pope could do some things correct, he's not going to come out and tell everyone hail satan, every squirrel gets a nut now and then...why not concentrate on his actual life, have you read any books on the saint?

I already said I’m not opposed to Padre Pio, so you and I aren’t necessarily opposed when it comes to him.  But even Padre Pio would disagree that an antipope could validly/licitly canonize.  Whatever religion you practice that allows antipopes to canonize saints (a supposedly infallible act), it is not Roman Catholicism.

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2019, 11:30:27 PM »
....be prepared to be humiliated in front of your friends here

?? That seems a rather uncharitable wish ...
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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2019, 12:20:33 AM »
Satan writes articles?

Does Satan have to log in like the rest of us?
Depends on who you consider to be Satan.

"And Balaam rose up in the boker, and saddled his donkey, and went with the sarim (princes) of Moav. But the Af Elohim (G-d’s anger) was kindled as he was going; and the Malach Hashem stood in the derech (road) l’satan (for an adversary, opposer) against him." (Num. 2:21-22)

Being interpreted by Abba Ronald, this demonstrates that we are all satans.
Can fire or water purify us?

St. Democritus would say that fire and water are made of the same essential stuffs. Or would he?

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2019, 01:14:49 AM »
....be prepared to be humiliated in front of your friends here

?? That seems a rather uncharitable wish ...
we must protect the saints from these insults

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2019, 01:22:27 AM »
an anti pope could do some things correct, he's not going to come out and tell everyone hail satan, every squirrel gets a nut now and then...why not concentrate on his actual life, have you read any books on the saint?

I already said I’m not opposed to Padre Pio, so you and I aren’t necessarily opposed when it comes to him.  But even Padre Pio would disagree that an antipope could validly/licitly canonize.  Whatever religion you practice that allows antipopes to canonize saints (a supposedly infallible act), it is not Roman Catholicism.
if you are saying his public veneration as a saint is not appropriate simply because the Vatican has so perverted the canonization process ......I wouldn't disagree with you

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2019, 02:14:00 AM »
an anti pope could do some things correct, he's not going to come out and tell everyone hail satan, every squirrel gets a nut now and then...why not concentrate on his actual life, have you read any books on the saint?

I already said I’m not opposed to Padre Pio, so you and I aren’t necessarily opposed when it comes to him.  But even Padre Pio would disagree that an antipope could validly/licitly canonize.  Whatever religion you practice that allows antipopes to canonize saints (a supposedly infallible act), it is not Roman Catholicism.
if you are saying his public veneration as a saint is not appropriate simply because the Vatican has so perverted the canonization process ......I wouldn't disagree with you

I’m saying you reject the Novus Ordo Popes but accept their canonizations.  That’s not very Roman Catholic of you.

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2019, 03:11:55 AM »
St. Paul the Apostle says, Gal 6:17 "From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus." The Greek word for stigmata comes from this passage. Besides, couldn't many of the other Apostles also say with St. Paul, "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."? Many of the Apostles even died by Crucifixion! Including St. Peter and St. Andrew.

Certainly, every Priest must be crucified with Christ, and all must in their own way take up their daily Cross and follow the Lord. If a martyrdom of one day and even one hour obtains priceless grace for the increase and sanctification of the Church - as all Christianity as ever held, the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church - think how great would be the grace all mankind received from a Priest who loved Christ so much that he willed to be crucified with him for 50+ years in a lifelong martyrdom? Of St. Francis it was said even in his lifetime by his contemporaries, "Brother, all the Saints are great, but St. Francis is also great among the great Saints of God, because of the works that God does by him." St. Padre Pio, whose birth name is also Francesco, was a Franciscan Friar who was a true son of St. Francis. https://padrepiodevotions.org/a-short-biography/

St. Paul also said, "24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:" (Col 1:24) Every Priest must care for his flock, for the Church and the world like that. May God grant us 1000s more holy Priests like the Apostles who lived consecrated lives sacrificed for their flocks.

Quote
A Short Biography
Padre Pio (Francesco Forgione) was born to Giuseppa and Grazio Forgione, in the small farming town of Pietrelcina, Italy on May 25, 1887. Although the Forgiones were poor in material goods, they were certainly rich in their faith life and in the love of God.

Even as a young boy, Francesco had already shown signs of extraordinary gifts of grace. At the age of five, he dedicated his life to God. From his early childhood, he showed a remarkable recollection of spirit and a love for the religious life. His mother described him as a quiet child who, from his earliest years, loved to go to church and to pray. As a young boy, he was able to see and communicate with, not only his guardian angel but also with Jesus and the Virgin Mary. In his simplicity, Francesco assumed everyone had the same experiences. Once a woman who noticed his spiritual demeanor asked him, “When did you consecrate your life to God? Was it at your first Holy Communion?” and he answered, “Always, daughter, always.”

When Francesco was fifteen years old, he was admitted to the novitiate of the Capuchin Order of the Friars Minor in Morcone, Italy. He was admired by his fellow-students as well as by his Superiors for his exemplary behavior and his deep piety. One of the novices stated, “There was something which distinguished him from the other students. Whenever I saw him, he was always humble, recollected, and silent. What struck me most about Brother Pio was his love of prayer.”

Wiki: In 1971, three years after his death, Pope Paul VI said to the superiors of the Capuchin Order about Pio: "Look what fame he had, what a worldwide following gathered around him! But why? Perhaps because he was a philosopher? Because he was wise? Because he had resources at his disposal? Because he said Mass humbly, heard confessions from dawn to dusk and was–it is not easy to say it–one who bore the wounds of our Lord. He was a man of prayer and suffering.[49]

St. Pio used to Pray and Sacrifice so much for all the souls who visited him. Here was an Apostle and Alter Christus who like St. Paul loved nothing but Christ and Him Crucified.
"O Immaculata, Queen of Heaven and earth, refuge of sinners and our most loving Mother, God has willed to entrust the entire order of mercy to you. I, Xavier, a repentant sinner, cast myself at Your feet humbly imploring You to take me with all that I am and have, wholly to Yourself as Your possession and property ...  If it pleases You, use all that I am and have without reserve, wholly to accomplish what was said of You: "She will crush your head" https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2019, 11:12:14 AM »
....be prepared to be humiliated in front of your friends here

?? That seems a rather uncharitable wish ...
we must protect the saints from these insults

I seriously doubt the saints need the protection of a bunch of nerds arguing on an Internet forum.
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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2019, 07:00:58 PM »
....be prepared to be humiliated in front of your friends here

?? That seems a rather uncharitable wish ...
we must protect the saints from these insults

I seriously doubt the saints need the protection of a bunch of nerds arguing on an Internet forum.

Lol
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Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2019, 10:30:18 PM »
an anti pope could do some things correct, he's not going to come out and tell everyone hail satan, every squirrel gets a nut now and then...why not concentrate on his actual life, have you read any books on the saint?

I already said I’m not opposed to Padre Pio, so you and I aren’t necessarily opposed when it comes to him.  But even Padre Pio would disagree that an antipope could validly/licitly canonize.  Whatever religion you practice that allows antipopes to canonize saints (a supposedly infallible act), it is not Roman Catholicism.
if you are saying his public veneration as a saint is not appropriate simply because the Vatican has so perverted the canonization process ......I wouldn't disagree with you

I’m saying you reject the Novus Ordo Popes but accept their canonizations.  That’s not very Roman Catholic of you.
I don't accept the Novus ordo canonizations, Padre Pio led a saintly life and in heaven will be recognized as a saint, He along with Saint Francis of Assisi , miracle of Lourdes  and Fatima are examples that confirm the Catholic faith to be the true faith, so naturally the schismatics must defame them with ridiculous and un substantiated claims

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2019, 10:33:15 PM »
....be prepared to be humiliated in front of your friends here

?? That seems a rather uncharitable wish ...
we must protect the saints from these insults

I seriously doubt the saints need the protection of a bunch of nerds arguing on an Internet forum.
why are you calling yourself a nerd, don't be so harsh with yourself...if you talk with someone who insults our Lord and Saviour, would you not take offence and defend our Lord's name and character...it is in that sense we must protect the saints as well...do you still find my reply uncharitable?

Offline theistgal

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2019, 12:22:48 AM »
....be prepared to be humiliated in front of your friends here

?? That seems a rather uncharitable wish ...
we must protect the saints from these insults

I seriously doubt the saints need the protection of a bunch of nerds arguing on an Internet forum.
why are you calling yourself a nerd, don't be so harsh with yourself...if you talk with someone who insults our Lord and Saviour, would you not take offence and defend our Lord's name and character...it is in that sense we must protect the saints as well...do you still find my reply uncharitable?

Why yes ... yes, I do. And this one, even more so. Not surprising in the least, though. ;)

And again -- as with the saints -- I'm pretty sure Our Lord can hold His own.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 12:25:35 AM by theistgal »
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2019, 04:35:14 AM »
an anti pope could do some things correct, he's not going to come out and tell everyone hail satan, every squirrel gets a nut now and then...why not concentrate on his actual life, have you read any books on the saint?

I already said I’m not opposed to Padre Pio, so you and I aren’t necessarily opposed when it comes to him.  But even Padre Pio would disagree that an antipope could validly/licitly canonize.  Whatever religion you practice that allows antipopes to canonize saints (a supposedly infallible act), it is not Roman Catholicism.
if you are saying his public veneration as a saint is not appropriate simply because the Vatican has so perverted the canonization process ......I wouldn't disagree with you

I’m saying you reject the Novus Ordo Popes but accept their canonizations.  That’s not very Roman Catholic of you.
I don't accept the Novus ordo canonizations...

Yet you called him St Padre Pio.  Perhaps you are a Pope and canonized him here on OCNet via electronic bull?

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2019, 04:35:58 AM »
HABEMUS PAPAM!

Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: Purgatory- is this quote true in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2019, 10:36:31 AM »
why are you calling yourself a nerd, don't be so harsh with yourself...i

Wow, this is the nicest thing I think you've ever said to anyone on this forum.  Keep that up and who knows, there might even be a normal, fruitful discussion one day.