Author Topic: Stations of the Cross  (Read 990 times)

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Online LivenotoneviL

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Stations of the Cross
« on: December 06, 2017, 07:04:52 PM »
I've noticed that it seems that in the Western Rite Antiochian Orthodox Tradition (I'm not so sure about the Russian Orthodox Church in this regard), there is a practice of the Stations of the Cross that is prominently encouraged.

In particular, I'm interested in how this is accomplished.

Is there a particular extra-liturgical practice of it? Is it more or less the same as the Catholic practice? Are there any particular "ways" which are permitted or allowed?

What about Stabat Mater - the prayer that originated in the 13th century which is rather Franciscan in it's spirituality

(asking to suffer with Christ; for example,

"Let my soul, thy death declaring,
Thy unsparing passion sharing,
Count thy bruises one by one.")?

How much Latin is used in this prayer if it is used?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 07:05:16 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2017, 01:01:07 AM »
I only know that I know nothing about this particular thing.
To my shame, I may have been very drunk when I wrote this.

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2017, 06:48:55 PM »
I only know that I know nothing about this particular thing.

Helpful.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2017, 07:21:32 PM »
... is rather Franciscan in its spirituality (asking to suffer with Christ ...)

"Χριστῷ συνεσταύρωμαι ζῶ δὲ" -- I have been strung up alongside Christ, yet I live (St. Paul, Gal 2.20).
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2017, 07:52:58 PM »
... is rather Franciscan in its spirituality (asking to suffer with Christ ...)

"Χριστῷ συνεσταύρωμαι ζῶ δὲ" -- I have been strung up alongside Christ, yet I live (St. Paul, Gal 2.20).

Isn't Paul discussing the "Crucifixion" of his own flesh, as the rest of verse suggests? Not simply a desire with God to experience physical sensations?


Take this from the advice of a noob, as I'm no expert or scholar - but I'm of the opinion that an emphasis on the suffering of Christ is not heterodox, simply because I consider such a Roman emphasis to be a result of not only the mass and violent persecutions of the Romans, but also the fact that the Gospel of Saint Mark was the prominent Gospel.

However, I'm hesitant to the extent that it became from 13th century onward, where one wants to "count the bruises" that they "share with Christ's death," as it can lead to a case of delusion or false spirituality.

Please correct me if my opinion is heterodox; I'm serious.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 07:59:24 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2017, 08:23:00 PM »
We have that on the church wall inside St. Peter's WRO church.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2017, 08:29:04 PM »
... is rather Franciscan in its spirituality (asking to suffer with Christ ...)

"Χριστῷ συνεσταύρωμαι ζῶ δὲ" -- I have been strung up alongside Christ, yet I live (St. Paul, Gal 2.20).

Isn't Paul discussing the "Crucifixion" of his own flesh, as the rest of verse suggests? Not simply a desire with God to experience physical sensations?


Take this from the advice of a noob, as I'm no expert or scholar - but I'm of the opinion that an emphasis on the suffering of Christ is not heterodox, simply because I consider such a Roman emphasis to be a result of not only the mass and violent persecutions of the Romans, but also the fact that the Gospel of Saint Mark was the prominent Gospel.

However, I'm hesitant to the extent that it became from 13th century onward, where one wants to "count the bruises" that they "share with Christ's death," as it can lead to a case of delusion or false spirituality.

Please correct me if my opinion is heterodox; I'm serious.

I don't know that I sense much profit in affixing a "heterodox," "delusional," or "okay" label on everything. Yes, the Stabat Mater takes a very human look at what it supposes to have been the suffering of the Thetokos. Yes, such sentimentality would wash over Europe in the following centuries as Catholic and Protestant pietists and poets seemed to rival each other's bathos. I don't think the "mass persecutions" had a lot to do with it, but then I'm one that thinks the Middle Ages were mostly very pleasant and sensible times. To sum up: I think there's room for the imagery we find in the Stabat Mater, and I think to be aware of what our Lord underwent in this life and prepare to follow him is a strand of sacred tradition. This must be moderated, lest it inflame our passions, but more importantly it must be apposite to and ultimately overcome by the powerful rejoicing of the Paschal period and assurance of mortal salvation. The Theotokos may not fully have understood Christ's sacrifice at the time he hanged on the cross, but she certainly rejoiced in his triumph as soon as she did come to comprehend it. The Stabat Mater thus does not tell the full story, or the most important part of the story, but taken as a single passage in a cycle of the Christian year, it seems to me a solid bit of piety.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2017, 08:32:03 PM »
Link to the hymn in question, for those unfamiliar.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2017, 11:13:49 PM »

Yes, such sentimentality would wash over Europe in the following centuries as Catholic and Protestant pietists and poets seemed to rival each other's bathos. I don't think the "mass persecutions" had a lot to do with it, but then I'm one that thinks the Middle Ages were mostly very pleasant and sensible times.


I'm of the opinion that in the pre-schism Roman days, when Rome was Orthodox and Holy, there was a slightly greater emphasis on the suffering of Christ, and I think a lot of this had to do with the persecutions of the Pagan Roman days and before there really was a specific canon of Scripture, and the Gospel of Mark being the prominent Gospel in Rome (as the Gospel of Mark is very succinct in the telling of the Gospel, but has the longest passion narrative - even compared to John). This slightly greater emphasis were seeds that, when separated from the rest of the Orthodox Christian world, blossomed into the over-emphasis we see in the Roman Catholic Church today.

I think it's why the "Lamb of God" (although the Agnus Dei hymn was added after the Quinisext Council, it seems that both ROCOR and Antioch are perfectly fine with that hymn) and the emphasis of the Eucharist being a "Sacrifice" is more pronounced in the Liturgy of Saint Gregory than it is in the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom.

However, with separation from the rest of the Orthodox Church, this slight liturgical emphasis gradually bloomed into the Franciscan spiritually and emotional sentimentalism present in the Roman hymns and artwork that we see today.

It's like how I view the ideas of the Immaculate Conception and Original Sin - it was a mistake / opinion by Saint Augustine (that is, inherited guilt) that gradually bloomed into dogmatic Roman facts when separated from the rest of the Orthodox Church and her Saints.

Or perhaps how the historical and venerable Roman tradition of Peter and Paul helping to found the Church of Rome, as well as her preserving of Orthodox dogma, got disfigured and deformed into the whole idea of Papal Supremacy and Papal Infallibility, proclaiming the Pope as the sole Vicar of Christ from the 13th century onward.

In the same way that these once Orthodox ideas which were distinct in the West got mutated into the Roman Catholic Church today, I think the emphasis on suffering was originally Orthodox - although, as you pointed out, certainly the rest of the Christ's life wasn't forgotten either as it seems now it is.


I think even with the Stations of the Cross, this same pattern of development occurred too. I believe that the Stations of the Cross originated pre-schism with pilgrims visiting the Holy Land and walking the path that Christ took, and pilgrims took that experience home with them; however, it eventually - very shortly post-schism - was integrated into the Roman Church as part of the liturgical life.

Although I don't mind heterodox ideas or even pagan ideas being "baptized" into the life of the Orthodox Church, as long as it teaches Truth and is consistent with the Orthodox Spirituality and Tradition (for example, I have no problem with Western Rite Orthodox using Fiddleback Chasubles or a Biretta, as both are beautiful and ornate and fulfill pretty much the same function that the Byzantine vestments do; they aren't much more variable to Greek vestments at least to me than the Russian Orthodox vestments are; Antioch allows both but ROCOR forbids both),



Compare that to



but I'm still curious as to how the Orthodox Church of Antioch (or ROCOR if they allow it) uses the Stations of the Cross.

If something like the Stabat Mater is Orthodox in its content, Glory be to God! I wouldn't want to remove something that is part of Living Tradition just because it's different. Nor, as Christ said, do I want to put heavy burdens on people without lifting my finger.

However, I can't help but raise an eyebrow, especially when I'm of the opinion - as Father Seraphim Rose of blessed memory stated - that the Roman Catholic Church as it exists now as an institution finished its transformation into the heterodoxy we see today by the 13th century, and its spirituality, ecclesiology, and traditions were unrecognizable to the Orthodox by that time, and this particular hymn which is a product of Franciscan spirituality (as it was written by a Friar or Pope Innocent III, the Pope that was friends with Francis and canonized him almost instantly after death) has some questionable lines of prayer in it that can be overtly sentimental.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 11:25:06 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Online LivenotoneviL

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2017, 11:32:02 PM »
Also, there are some "Stations of the Cross" in use by Catholics that are directly connected to some Roman Catholic saints or visions / apparitions that I think should be outright forbidden, such as the "Way of Faustina," in which all the reflections are quotes from "Christ" in his revelations to Faustina.

http://www.thedivinemercy.org/stations/woc_faustina.php

Where Christ says "Do not be afraid of sufferings; I am with you. The more you will come to love suffering, the purer your love for Me will be."

or perhaps

"But child, you are not yet in your homeland; so go, fortified by My grace, and fight for My kingdom in human souls; fight as a king’s child would; and remember that the days of your exile will pass quickly, and with them the possibility of earning merit for heaven. I expect from you, My child, a great number of souls who will glorify My mercy for all eternity."

Although I doubt such a thing could happen, but nonetheless, my point is I think there are extremes / red lines with the Stations that need to be set down, and I'm curious as to how that's been accomplished in the Holy Church of Antioch by her beloved Holy Priests and Servants.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 11:34:46 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2017, 11:35:45 PM »
Send these to the bishop in a vanilla envelope, then put it out of your mind.

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2017, 11:38:16 PM »
Send these to the bishop in a vanilla envelope, then put it out of your mind.

As if I, a person who's not even a Catechumen, should tell a bishop how to run his Church.

And I don't know how the Antiochian Churches do it or regulate it.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 11:40:06 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2017, 11:43:20 PM »
Send these to the bishop in a vanilla envelope, then put it out of your mind.

As if I, a person who's not even a Catechumen, should tell a bishop how to run his Church.

And I don't know how the Antiochian Churches do it or regulate it.

Oh don't be so modest. You're presuming to tell the entire world in this thread what you "think should be outright forbidden"  ;)

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2017, 11:55:31 PM »
Send these to the bishop in a vanilla envelope, then put it out of your mind.

As if I, a person who's not even a Catechumen, should tell a bishop how to run his Church.

And I don't know how the Antiochian Churches do it or regulate it.

Oh don't be so modest. You're presuming to tell the entire world in this thread what you "think should be outright forbidden"  ;)

Would anybody dispute that Faustina is heretical in her "messages from Christ?"

"Christ" told Faustina

"Now, I know that it is not for the graces or gifts that you love Me, but because My Will is dearer to you than life. That is why I am uniting Myself with you so intimately as with no other creature."

What Orthodox priest would get away with praying to Faustina in the context of liturgical worship?

The original question was how the Antiochian Orthodox Churches run their Stations of the Cross, which is what I've noticed, and I'm curious as to how they accommodate it into Orthodoxy, which devolved into a discussion about the emotional sentimentality with Stabat Mater in particular as a hymn - and whether or not if it's appropriate in the context of Orthodox worship.

Although I will admit that you caught me at being prideful and telling people how to run their Church.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 12:04:46 AM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

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Online LivenotoneviL

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2017, 12:03:23 AM »
We have that on the church wall inside St. Peter's WRO church.

Seems like a nice little Church!
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2017, 01:34:35 AM »
Methinks that it's quite complicated to judge certain practices, especially non liturgical ones, outside context.  I actually think that the Western emphasis on the Passion comes from its tendency towards legalism, thanks to the pervasive influence on the Roman Church by the Franks (which wasn't limited just to it, but to the very make up of Europe, but I digress).  Perhaps the piety that was developed around the Passion in the West was a reaction to the legalism wielded by the Medieval Church, as it brings God closer to men in the suffering person of Jesus, when words fail to do circumspect the depth and breadth of this mystery.
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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2017, 07:35:08 AM »
I agree with the observations given by LivenotoneviL in Reply #8

As for this:
Methinks that it's quite complicated to judge certain practices, especially non liturgical ones, outside context.  I actually think that the Western emphasis on the Passion comes from its tendency towards legalism, thanks to the pervasive influence on the Roman Church by the Franks (which wasn't limited just to it, but to the very make up of Europe, but I digress).  Perhaps the piety that was developed around the Passion in the West was a reaction to the legalism wielded by the Medieval Church, as it brings God closer to men in the suffering person of Jesus, when words fail to do circumspect the depth and breadth of this mystery.

I think it was actually not a reaction to the legalism (no doubt that Western Christianity has tendency toward it), but it's a fruit of legalism. I mean, the fact that first man had sinned so gravely, and because of it the next generations have sinned so gravely, there's been a need for a "great Salvator" and "great way of Salvation", I mean the sufferings (and furthemore, suffering of God!) are proportional to these sins. It goese the same as for: the bigger crime, the bigger penalty.
In consequence, services of Christ passions, among them Stations of the Cross, are perceived not only as a commemoration of this "legal process" that took place in the History of Salvation, but also as a way for the participants of these services to redeem theselves from their own faults and sins.
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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2017, 12:03:46 PM »
I think it was actually not a reaction to the legalism (no doubt that Western Christianity has tendency toward it), but it's a fruit of legalism. I mean, the fact that first man had sinned so gravely, and because of it the next generations have sinned so gravely, there's been a need for a "great Salvator" and "great way of Salvation", I mean the sufferings (and furthemore, suffering of God!) are proportional to these sins. It goese the same as for: the bigger crime, the bigger penalty.
In consequence, services of Christ passions, among them Stations of the Cross, are perceived not only as a commemoration of this "legal process" that took place in the History of Salvation, but also as a way for the participants of these services to redeem theselves from their own faults and sins.
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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2017, 01:19:24 PM »
Send these to the bishop in a vanilla envelope, then put it out of your mind.

As if I, a person who's not even a Catechumen, should tell a bishop how to run his Church.

And I don't know how the Antiochian Churches do it or regulate it.

Oh don't be so modest. You're presuming to tell the entire world in this thread what you "think should be outright forbidden"  ;)

Would anybody dispute that Faustina is heretical in her "messages from Christ?"

"Christ" told Faustina

"Now, I know that it is not for the graces or gifts that you love Me, but because My Will is dearer to you than life. That is why I am uniting Myself with you so intimately as with no other creature."

What's wrong with that?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2017, 02:50:42 PM »
Send these to the bishop in a vanilla envelope, then put it out of your mind.

As if I, a person who's not even a Catechumen, should tell a bishop how to run his Church.

And I don't know how the Antiochian Churches do it or regulate it.

Oh don't be so modest. You're presuming to tell the entire world in this thread what you "think should be outright forbidden"  ;)

Would anybody dispute that Faustina is heretical in her "messages from Christ?"

"Christ" told Faustina

"Now, I know that it is not for the graces or gifts that you love Me, but because My Will is dearer to you than life. That is why I am uniting Myself with you so intimately as with no other creature."

What's wrong with that?

You don't find this a symptom of prelest? I mean, surely, Christ has praised His Saints when He has appeared to them - but out of all humanity and all the Saints, even the Theotokos who was sinless and is the only one whose body has been Resurrected into Heaven, and is the greatest of all the Saints as a dogmatic fact, Christ is united with / closer to Faustina?
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2017, 03:14:48 PM »
Even if you disagree with this prelest filled statement, you don't find the "purification by means of suffering" or the "merit theology" as heterodox?

In my opinion, it is wise to be very careful when it comes to Catholic apparitions and saints.

For example, Thomas Aquinas, near the end of his life, received a divine vision and stated "everything I have ever written is straw," and he tried to burn his work.

It's outside the Church, but I will not comment as to whether this vision was truly Divine or not.

However, some Catholic visions or apparitions that are clearly false or from Satan I have no problem condemning, like Medjugorje or Our Lady of Roses, as these spout obvious heresy.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 03:22:25 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

Keep shining, star!

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2017, 06:24:35 PM »
God unites himself with man, not with any other creature, not even with the angels.

As for "prelest," I think this is an accusation of the kind that can be made against almost anyone because it is very loosely defined and very much relies on suspicions of motives -- the kind of term an Inquisition would love to have in its legal arsenal. To be frank, your anti-Catholic posts can make you seem a little obsessed yourself sometimes.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2017, 06:54:15 PM »
God unites himself with man, not with any other creature, not even with the angels.

As for "prelest," I think this is an accusation of the kind that can be made against almost anyone because it is very loosely defined and very much relies on suspicions of motives -- the kind of term an Inquisition would love to have in its legal arsenal. To be frank, your anti-Catholic posts can make you seem a little obsessed yourself sometimes.




As it pertains to that quote, I understood it as saying that Faustina would be united to Christ more than any other creature - including other humans - which contradicts, in both Catholicism and Orthodoxy, the idea that the Theotokos is the greatest of the Saints. Unless I'm missing something.

It seems to me that this apparition seems to be rooted in pride, in addition to teaching things completely alien from the Orthodox Tradition, which are the marks of deception.

I will only comment on apparitions that teach obvious falsehoods as false. Medjugorje taught that there are no differences between the Orthodox, Catholics, Muslims, and Jews and Our Lady of Roses taught that test tube babies aren't human while also predicting things that never came true. Both of these things I can confidently say are from hell.

I'm not as "anti-Catholic" as you think - I don't feel comfortable commenting on Lourdes for example.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 06:55:20 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2017, 07:26:54 PM »
So, HOW are the stations done? If they are done at all?
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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2017, 07:45:21 PM »
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2017, 08:15:08 PM »
So, HOW are the stations done? If they are done at all?

http://www.stgregoryoc.org/article/article-archive/stations-of-the-cross/

Interesting - and while, of course, I don't think everything in the West post-schism is heterodox (I think Dies Irae is a great hymn), my eyebrows are still raised about Stabat Mater.
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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2017, 09:30:06 AM »
So, HOW are the stations done? If they are done at all?

http://www.stgregoryoc.org/article/article-archive/stations-of-the-cross/

Interesting - and while, of course, I don't think everything in the West post-schism is heterodox (I think Dies Irae is a great hymn), my eyebrows are still raised about Stabat Mater.

Since I don't know Latin, Ic an't tell what's in the original text. But we should remember that e.g English is only translation and may vary from the original. Personally I like this hymn, esepcially in traditional chant, in Latin and Polish.

What's more, in some way it reminds the canon of lamentantion of the Theotokos sung at small compline on Good Friday. It may be chanted as usually, but tehre are also other ways to do, e.g in Church Slavonic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ohXwTMSB9s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLOuUvAsDsA - Balkans (lament by a woman)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5zb4UU3-uE
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 09:31:28 AM by Dominika »
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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2017, 11:20:21 AM »
In the ACROD we have a Good Friday hymn called Stranal Mati (Mother of Sorrows) which seems very similar to Stabat Mater, possibly a paraphrase.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 11:20:36 AM by Iconodule »
Quote
Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop
- GK Chesteron, "Lepanto"

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2017, 04:12:26 PM »
In the ACROD we have a Good Friday hymn called Stranal Mati (Mother of Sorrows) which seems very similar to Stabat Mater, possibly a paraphrase.

I suppose you mean "Stradalnaya Mati". It's a paraliturgical song of Ukrainians, Rusyns and Slovaks, both Orthodox and Greek Catholics.
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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2017, 04:15:08 PM »
I don't think my problem is necessarily the remembrance of Our Lady's Sorrow, or even liturgically standing side by side with her witnessing the suffering of her Son - which moves one's soul.

And the Stabat Mater is a beautiful hymn. I've only experienced the Stations in English in my Roman Catholic experiences, but it still remains a permanent part of my nostalgia - I can still visualize stopping at each station, the priest chanting the first portion of "Adoramus Te" in English as we all genuflected to the Cross and responded to it.

"We adore you Christ and we praise You!"
"Because by Your Holy Cross you have redeemed the world!"

And in the Traditional Novus Ordo church I went to, the image of Christ talking to the women is almost permanently burned in my skull.
It is a mosaic that I think encapsulates so much of the Character of Christ - Love, Suffering, Wisdom, and being the Lamb led to the Slaughter.

This was the exact image:



Look. I'm not trying to be the "edgy" noob who wants to censor all things Western in order to bring about Byzantine purity. In fact, I want a Western Rite Church near the Cleveland area of Ohio - that would bring me so much joy. I think that most (keyword - MOST) of the Tridentine Mass is Orthodox (of course, with the exception of unleavened bread, Filioque, a downplayed Epiklesis, etc.) with origins straight to Peter and Paul, and I'm happy that the Holy Church of Russia and the Holy Church of Antioch saw this, while correcting the things that are heterodox.

I'm also glad that some of these Churches are revitalizing some Western Orthodox Liturgical Traditions, such as the pouring of rose-petals on Pentecost; symbolic of the Descent of the Holy Spirit.



However, I think some lines of Stabat Mater in the Latin or English seem to go at points too far in its sentimentality.

These lines are the ones which really made me say "hold on."

"Tui Nati vulnerati,
tam dignati pro me pati,
poenas mecum divide."


Which is translated as

"Let me share with thee His pain,
who for all my sins was slain,
who for me in torments died."

or

"Of your wounded son
who deigned to suffer for me
let me share His pain."

or

"Let me share the pain
of your own wounded Son
who chose to suffer so much for me."


I hate to sound like the "Spanish Inquisition," but this phrase of "wanting to share the pain of Christ's suffering" seems really heterodox, and I don't want people's spiritual life to be corrupted.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 04:24:11 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2017, 04:36:47 PM »
However, I think some lines of Stabat Mater in the Latin or English seem to go at points too far in its sentimentality.

These lines are the ones which really made me say "hold on."

"Tui Nati vulnerati,
tam dignati pro me pati,
poenas mecum divide."


Which is translated as

"Let me share with thee His pain,
who for all my sins was slain,
who for me in torments died."

or

"Of your wounded son
who deigned to suffer for me
let me share His pain."

or

"Let me share the pain
of your own wounded Son
who chose to suffer so much for me."


I hate to sound like the "Spanish Inquisition," but this phrase of "wanting to share the pain of Christ's suffering" seems really heterodox...

No more heterodox than "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church..."

Quote
...and I don't want people's spiritual life to be corrupted.

Start by focusing on your own.  You are mixed up. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2017, 04:45:27 PM »


No more heterodox than "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church..."


Start by focusing on your own.  You are mixed up.

There's a distinction between asking God to experience the physical pain Christ felt and to rejoice in the sufferings that God has given you.

And yes, I need to focus on my own; so pray for me.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 04:48:29 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2017, 04:49:06 PM »
Quote


No more heterodox than "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church..."


Start by focusing on your own.  You are mixed up.

There's a distinction between asking God to experience the physical pain Christ felt and to rejoice in the sufferings that God has given you.

I don't see anything about "experiencing the physical pain Christ felt" in the verses you selected.  It seems more likely that you're reading it into the text.

Quote
And yes, I need to focus on my own; so pray for me.

Oh, I am...
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2017, 04:58:30 PM »
Quote


No more heterodox than "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church..."


Start by focusing on your own.  You are mixed up.

There's a distinction between asking God to experience the physical pain Christ felt and to rejoice in the sufferings that God has given you.

I don't see anything about "experiencing the physical pain Christ felt" in the verses you selected.  It seems more likely that you're reading it into the text.

Quote
And yes, I need to focus on my own; so pray for me.

Oh, I am...

Thank you.

"Tui Nati vulnerati,
tam dignati pro me pati,
poenas mecum divide."


Which is translated as

"Let me share with thee His pain,
who for all my sins was slain
,
who for me in torments died."

or

"Of your wounded son
who deigned to suffer for me
let me share His pain."

or

"Let me share the pain
of your own wounded Son

who chose to suffer so much for me."
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

Keep shining, star!

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2017, 05:22:54 PM »
Look...I can read.  The real problem is that you can't seem to understand that "sharing pain" does not necessarily mean "experiencing the physical pain Christ felt". 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2017, 10:35:44 PM »
Look...I can read.  The real problem is that you can't seem to understand that "sharing pain" does not necessarily mean "experiencing the physical pain Christ felt".

From Father Seraphim Rose:

"Again, there is a very interesting thing which happened to him when he received the stigmata, which is the marks of the wounds of Christ, five marks in the hands, in the side, the feet.  Before receiving this, which in the Catholic Church is accepted as a real sign of a saint, he prayed that he might suffer what Christ suffered in soul and body and, quote, "that I might as much as possible feel with all my being that limitless love with which Thou didst burn, O Son of God, and which caused Thee to endure so many torments for us sinners."

This is a brazenness which is unheard of in true Saints: that they want to have God's love itself, and they want to suffer what He suffered feeling the flesh.  This is not spiritual striving.  This is a search for bodily sensations and the great pride he felt at wishing to feel the very feelings of God.  And you can contrast this with any -- Christ does appear to saints.  He appeared to St. Seraphim as he was serving as a deacon in church, and St. Seraphim did not pray, "manifest yourself to me," or "make me feel what You felt."  He was praying in church; Christ appeared to him.  And he did not even want to speak about it.

And then when he [Francis] received the stigmata there was a vision of a seraphim with Christ crucified superimposed on it, which came to him and which we'll show you in one of their icons of this, shoots out rays, sun rays and gives him the stigmata.  And at this time, according to his Life, Francis felt himself totally transformed into Jesus, which is blasphemy.  That is the root of the whole of Catholic spirituality: this sweetness that Jesus is approaching, "I am all one with Him and He's with me" -- all this is prelest."
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 10:35:52 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2017, 11:22:17 PM »
Look...I can read.  The real problem is that you can't seem to understand that "sharing pain" does not necessarily mean "experiencing the physical pain Christ felt".

From Father Seraphim Rose:

"Again, there is a very interesting thing which happened to him when he received the stigmata, which is the marks of the wounds of Christ, five marks in the hands, in the side, the feet.  Before receiving this, which in the Catholic Church is accepted as a real sign of a saint, he prayed that he might suffer what Christ suffered in soul and body and, quote, "that I might as much as possible feel with all my being that limitless love with which Thou didst burn, O Son of God, and which caused Thee to endure so many torments for us sinners."

This is a brazenness which is unheard of in true Saints: that they want to have God's love itself, and they want to suffer what He suffered feeling the flesh.  This is not spiritual striving.  This is a search for bodily sensations and the great pride he felt at wishing to feel the very feelings of God.  And you can contrast this with any -- Christ does appear to saints.  He appeared to St. Seraphim as he was serving as a deacon in church, and St. Seraphim did not pray, "manifest yourself to me," or "make me feel what You felt."  He was praying in church; Christ appeared to him.  And he did not even want to speak about it.

And then when he [Francis] received the stigmata there was a vision of a seraphim with Christ crucified superimposed on it, which came to him and which we'll show you in one of their icons of this, shoots out rays, sun rays and gives him the stigmata.  And at this time, according to his Life, Francis felt himself totally transformed into Jesus, which is blasphemy.  That is the root of the whole of Catholic spirituality: this sweetness that Jesus is approaching, "I am all one with Him and He's with me" -- all this is prelest."

Did Francis of Assisi write Stabat Mater?  Because unless he did, firing Fr Seraphim Rose quotes at me is irrelevant.  What's next?  Thich Nhat Hanh?
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2017, 12:30:13 AM »
Look...I can read.  The real problem is that you can't seem to understand that "sharing pain" does not necessarily mean "experiencing the physical pain Christ felt".

From Father Seraphim Rose:

"Again, there is a very interesting thing which happened to him when he received the stigmata, which is the marks of the wounds of Christ, five marks in the hands, in the side, the feet.  Before receiving this, which in the Catholic Church is accepted as a real sign of a saint, he prayed that he might suffer what Christ suffered in soul and body and, quote, "that I might as much as possible feel with all my being that limitless love with which Thou didst burn, O Son of God, and which caused Thee to endure so many torments for us sinners."

This is a brazenness which is unheard of in true Saints: that they want to have God's love itself, and they want to suffer what He suffered feeling the flesh.  This is not spiritual striving.  This is a search for bodily sensations and the great pride he felt at wishing to feel the very feelings of God.  And you can contrast this with any -- Christ does appear to saints.  He appeared to St. Seraphim as he was serving as a deacon in church, and St. Seraphim did not pray, "manifest yourself to me," or "make me feel what You felt."  He was praying in church; Christ appeared to him.  And he did not even want to speak about it.

And then when he [Francis] received the stigmata there was a vision of a seraphim with Christ crucified superimposed on it, which came to him and which we'll show you in one of their icons of this, shoots out rays, sun rays and gives him the stigmata.  And at this time, according to his Life, Francis felt himself totally transformed into Jesus, which is blasphemy.  That is the root of the whole of Catholic spirituality: this sweetness that Jesus is approaching, "I am all one with Him and He's with me" -- all this is prelest."

Did Francis of Assisi write Stabat Mater?  Because unless he did, firing Fr Seraphim Rose quotes at me is irrelevant.  What's next?  Thich Nhat Hanh?

Father Seraphim Rose's critique is that "desiring to experience suffering with Christ" is a striving for physical sensations and a desire to be equal to Christ, which is prelest. Which is why I fired the quote at you, because both Stabat Mater and Francis of Assisi's prayer contain the same exact content.
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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2017, 01:33:47 PM »
Look...I can read.  The real problem is that you can't seem to understand that "sharing pain" does not necessarily mean "experiencing the physical pain Christ felt".

From Father Seraphim Rose:

"Again, there is a very interesting thing which happened to him when he received the stigmata, which is the marks of the wounds of Christ, five marks in the hands, in the side, the feet.  Before receiving this, which in the Catholic Church is accepted as a real sign of a saint, he prayed that he might suffer what Christ suffered in soul and body and, quote, "that I might as much as possible feel with all my being that limitless love with which Thou didst burn, O Son of God, and which caused Thee to endure so many torments for us sinners."

This is a brazenness which is unheard of in true Saints: that they want to have God's love itself, and they want to suffer what He suffered feeling the flesh.  This is not spiritual striving.  This is a search for bodily sensations and the great pride he felt at wishing to feel the very feelings of God.  And you can contrast this with any -- Christ does appear to saints.  He appeared to St. Seraphim as he was serving as a deacon in church, and St. Seraphim did not pray, "manifest yourself to me," or "make me feel what You felt."  He was praying in church; Christ appeared to him.  And he did not even want to speak about it.

And then when he [Francis] received the stigmata there was a vision of a seraphim with Christ crucified superimposed on it, which came to him and which we'll show you in one of their icons of this, shoots out rays, sun rays and gives him the stigmata.  And at this time, according to his Life, Francis felt himself totally transformed into Jesus, which is blasphemy.  That is the root of the whole of Catholic spirituality: this sweetness that Jesus is approaching, "I am all one with Him and He's with me" -- all this is prelest."

Did Francis of Assisi write Stabat Mater?  Because unless he did, firing Fr Seraphim Rose quotes at me is irrelevant.  What's next?  Thich Nhat Hanh?

Father Seraphim Rose's critique is that "desiring to experience suffering with Christ" is a striving for physical sensations and a desire to be equal to Christ, which is prelest. Which is why I fired the quote at you, because both Stabat Mater and Francis of Assisi's prayer contain the same exact content.

But Stabat Mater is no a call to have physical sensations of feeling Christ's sufferings. You can read Stabat Mater as a wider description/call of Christ's words "Anyone who wants to follow me, let deny himself and take his Cross" (sorry for not using any official English translation). And please see the hymns of Good Friday and Great Saturday, especially the canon of the small compline I've mentioned before. All these hymns are full of emotions, some of them say about Theotokos' sufferings. During the washing of the feet of Great Thursday service you also have hymns calling to go with Christ to the Mount of Olives, goign with Him to His death on Cross, to not be like Judas (except wakefulness). You can read and hear that you have to pass across the Holy Thursday Night, Golghota, Cross, to be buried with Christ, to be risen with Him on Paschal night. That applies not to Holy Week of course, but to our whole life. Moreover, in the Paschal Canon you have such words:

Yesterday, O Christ, I was buried with Thee,
and today I arise with thy arising.
Yesterday I was crucified with Thee.
Glorify me, O Savior, with Thee in Thy Kingdom.
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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2017, 02:01:20 PM »
Look...I can read.  The real problem is that you can't seem to understand that "sharing pain" does not necessarily mean "experiencing the physical pain Christ felt".

From Father Seraphim Rose:

"Again, there is a very interesting thing which happened to him when he received the stigmata, which is the marks of the wounds of Christ, five marks in the hands, in the side, the feet.  Before receiving this, which in the Catholic Church is accepted as a real sign of a saint, he prayed that he might suffer what Christ suffered in soul and body and, quote, "that I might as much as possible feel with all my being that limitless love with which Thou didst burn, O Son of God, and which caused Thee to endure so many torments for us sinners."

This is a brazenness which is unheard of in true Saints: that they want to have God's love itself, and they want to suffer what He suffered feeling the flesh.  This is not spiritual striving.  This is a search for bodily sensations and the great pride he felt at wishing to feel the very feelings of God.  And you can contrast this with any -- Christ does appear to saints.  He appeared to St. Seraphim as he was serving as a deacon in church, and St. Seraphim did not pray, "manifest yourself to me," or "make me feel what You felt."  He was praying in church; Christ appeared to him.  And he did not even want to speak about it.

And then when he [Francis] received the stigmata there was a vision of a seraphim with Christ crucified superimposed on it, which came to him and which we'll show you in one of their icons of this, shoots out rays, sun rays and gives him the stigmata.  And at this time, according to his Life, Francis felt himself totally transformed into Jesus, which is blasphemy.  That is the root of the whole of Catholic spirituality: this sweetness that Jesus is approaching, "I am all one with Him and He's with me" -- all this is prelest."

Did Francis of Assisi write Stabat Mater?  Because unless he did, firing Fr Seraphim Rose quotes at me is irrelevant.  What's next?  Thich Nhat Hanh?

Father Seraphim Rose's critique is that "desiring to experience suffering with Christ" is a striving for physical sensations and a desire to be equal to Christ, which is prelest. Which is why I fired the quote at you, because both Stabat Mater and Francis of Assisi's prayer contain the same exact content.

Fr Seraphim's critique may be that Francis of Assisi's "desiring to experience suffering with Christ" is "a striving for physical sensations and a desire to be equal to Christ".  It certainly cannot be that any and all desire to share in Christ's sufferings is and can only be a matter of wanting to endure physical torture.  If you have even once experienced Orthodox Lent and Holy Week, as Fr Seraphim did many times, you will understand how wrongheaded your understanding is.  In fact, it is not understanding at all, it is misunderstanding and confusion and pride.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2017, 02:04:38 PM »
But Stabat Mater is no a call to have physical sensations of feeling Christ's sufferings. You can read Stabat Mater as a wider description/call of Christ's words "Anyone who wants to follow me, let deny himself and take his Cross" (sorry for not using any official English translation). And please see the hymns of Good Friday and Great Saturday, especially the canon of the small compline I've mentioned before. All these hymns are full of emotions, some of them say about Theotokos' sufferings. During the washing of the feet of Great Thursday service you also have hymns calling to go with Christ to the Mount of Olives, goign with Him to His death on Cross, to not be like Judas (except wakefulness). You can read and hear that you have to pass across the Holy Thursday Night, Golghota, Cross, to be buried with Christ, to be risen with Him on Paschal night. That applies not to Holy Week of course, but to our whole life. Moreover, in the Paschal Canon you have such words:

Yesterday, O Christ, I was buried with Thee,
and today I arise with thy arising.
Yesterday I was crucified with Thee.
Glorify me, O Savior, with Thee in Thy Kingdom.


You sound like a bright, intelligent person who has a broad, deep, and non-reactionary understanding of the great tradition of Orthodoxy rooted in real life practice of the faith. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2017, 02:14:22 PM »
But Stabat Mater is no a call to have physical sensations of feeling Christ's sufferings. You can read Stabat Mater as a wider description/call of Christ's words "Anyone who wants to follow me, let deny himself and take his Cross" (sorry for not using any official English translation). And please see the hymns of Good Friday and Great Saturday, especially the canon of the small compline I've mentioned before. All these hymns are full of emotions, some of them say about Theotokos' sufferings. During the washing of the feet of Great Thursday service you also have hymns calling to go with Christ to the Mount of Olives, goign with Him to His death on Cross, to not be like Judas (except wakefulness). You can read and hear that you have to pass across the Holy Thursday Night, Golghota, Cross, to be buried with Christ, to be risen with Him on Paschal night. That applies not to Holy Week of course, but to our whole life. Moreover, in the Paschal Canon you have such words:

Yesterday, O Christ, I was buried with Thee,
and today I arise with thy arising.
Yesterday I was crucified with Thee.
Glorify me, O Savior, with Thee in Thy Kingdom.


You sound like a bright, intelligent person who has a broad, deep, and non-reactionary understanding of the great tradition of Orthodoxy rooted in real life practice of the faith.
:-[
I should print it out! :D
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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2017, 03:20:55 PM »
But Stabat Mater is no a call to have physical sensations of feeling Christ's sufferings. You can read Stabat Mater as a wider description/call of Christ's words "Anyone who wants to follow me, let deny himself and take his Cross" (sorry for not using any official English translation). And please see the hymns of Good Friday and Great Saturday, especially the canon of the small compline I've mentioned before. All these hymns are full of emotions, some of them say about Theotokos' sufferings. During the washing of the feet of Great Thursday service you also have hymns calling to go with Christ to the Mount of Olives, goign with Him to His death on Cross, to not be like Judas (except wakefulness). You can read and hear that you have to pass across the Holy Thursday Night, Golghota, Cross, to be buried with Christ, to be risen with Him on Paschal night. That applies not to Holy Week of course, but to our whole life. Moreover, in the Paschal Canon you have such words:

Yesterday, O Christ, I was buried with Thee,
and today I arise with thy arising.
Yesterday I was crucified with Thee.
Glorify me, O Savior, with Thee in Thy Kingdom.


You sound like a bright, intelligent person who has a broad, deep, and non-reactionary understanding of the great tradition of Orthodoxy rooted in real life practice of the faith.
:-[
I should print it out! :D

Show it to your bishop, maybe he'll tonsure you a reader.  I endorse you, I think you'd be good at it. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2017, 04:17:20 PM »
But Stabat Mater is no a call to have physical sensations of feeling Christ's sufferings. You can read Stabat Mater as a wider description/call of Christ's words "Anyone who wants to follow me, let deny himself and take his Cross" (sorry for not using any official English translation). And please see the hymns of Good Friday and Great Saturday, especially the canon of the small compline I've mentioned before. All these hymns are full of emotions, some of them say about Theotokos' sufferings. During the washing of the feet of Great Thursday service you also have hymns calling to go with Christ to the Mount of Olives, goign with Him to His death on Cross, to not be like Judas (except wakefulness). You can read and hear that you have to pass across the Holy Thursday Night, Golghota, Cross, to be buried with Christ, to be risen with Him on Paschal night. That applies not to Holy Week of course, but to our whole life. Moreover, in the Paschal Canon you have such words:

Yesterday, O Christ, I was buried with Thee,
and today I arise with thy arising.
Yesterday I was crucified with Thee.
Glorify me, O Savior, with Thee in Thy Kingdom.


You sound like a bright, intelligent person who has a broad, deep, and non-reactionary understanding of the great tradition of Orthodoxy rooted in real life practice of the faith.
:-[
I should print it out! :D

Show it to your bishop, maybe he'll tonsure you a reader.  I endorse you, I think you'd be good at it.

Oh yes!!! It would be great! External support is so appreciated ;)
BTW, Yesterday I was chanting the Epistle, and I sang the prokimenon in the right tone, as I'd learnt most of Church Slavonic number from 1 to 9
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Re: Stations of the Cross
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2017, 07:48:54 PM »
But Stabat Mater is no a call to have physical sensations of feeling Christ's sufferings. You can read Stabat Mater as a wider description/call of Christ's words "Anyone who wants to follow me, let deny himself and take his Cross" (sorry for not using any official English translation). And please see the hymns of Good Friday and Great Saturday, especially the canon of the small compline I've mentioned before. All these hymns are full of emotions, some of them say about Theotokos' sufferings. During the washing of the feet of Great Thursday service you also have hymns calling to go with Christ to the Mount of Olives, goign with Him to His death on Cross, to not be like Judas (except wakefulness). You can read and hear that you have to pass across the Holy Thursday Night, Golghota, Cross, to be buried with Christ, to be risen with Him on Paschal night. That applies not to Holy Week of course, but to our whole life. Moreover, in the Paschal Canon you have such words:

Yesterday, O Christ, I was buried with Thee,
and today I arise with thy arising.
Yesterday I was crucified with Thee.
Glorify me, O Savior, with Thee in Thy Kingdom.


You sound like a bright, intelligent person who has a broad, deep, and non-reactionary understanding of the great tradition of Orthodoxy rooted in real life practice of the faith.

You know what they say...if you can't win the argument, call your opponent stupid!

May I ask on what planet would Christ approve of your behavior? I'm asking a question of concern about Western Orthodoxy, and you belittle me as if my comments don't have any substance to them.

I wish that someone who was educated with an MDiv (a venerable degree) could perhaps elucidate on why I am incorrect and school me that way rather than resort to childish antics and name calling. You won't win converts that way!
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

Keep shining, star!