Author Topic: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess  (Read 4612 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Ο προκαθήμενος της Ορθοδοξίας - The President of Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,221
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
I think there was always a need.  HOWEVER, the deaconate was recently seen as unnecessary and a waste of a rank, male or female.  But if the deaconate is necessary IN GENERAL, then there's a need.  That's the simple way I see things.

Yes.  In a way, it's like we've gotten used to a simpler diet and see no need for extras.  But God's grace is both superabundance and bare necessity.   
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,563
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
It's unfortunate that people resort to these ad hominem, to call you "anti-woman".  You raise valid questions, and I will answer them in my own understanding as follows.

I think there was always a need.  HOWEVER, the deaconate was recently seen as unnecessary and a waste of a rank, male or female.  But if the deaconate is necessary IN GENERAL, then there's a need.  That's the simple way I see things.

Yes, we can counsel and serve the poor and be theologically educated and all of that without the deaconate, but we need a "lead servant" that can coordinate that, and that has always been in the hands of the deacon, male and female, in the ancient Church.  It's about doing things decently and in order as St. Paul says.  That's all.

The centuries that was determined there was "no need" I thought were unfortunate.  There was always a need, and the fact that there were no female deacons even made the male deacons irrelevant in our practices.  Should we continue to keep irrelevant the deaconate as a whole?  Is that what the tradition of the Orthodox Church allows, to remove irrelevant ranks?  What determines an ordained rank irrelevant?

Every generation we have witnessed that the harvest is plenty, but the laborers are few.  I think it's time to recognize that the Church has not been very effective in bringing laborers to the harvest as speedily and necessarily as possible.

Hmmmm....thank you, Mina.  THIS was the first time it has made even a little sense to me....in view of the Deaconate, in general.

I do thoroughly enjoy the Liturgies when I visit other parishes that have deacons serving....but, my parish has NEVER had a deacon...so, perhaps my opinion is skewed towards the necessity of one.

What you say...in the sense of retaining a deaconate is starting to shine a light. 

Thank you.

You are not alone.  A recent upsurge of male Coptic deacons have made laity question its value.  Many are simply calling the male Coptic deacons "nothing but cup-bearers (alluding to the blood of Christ in the chalice) and a waste of parish resources".  When I hear that, I think that's the underlying disease in the symptom of our views of the holy orders of the Church, that we lack a good understanding of the spirituality behind the necessity of the holy orders.


Parishes that do not have Deacons in my opinion are missing out.  Fine if you have another Priest to do some of the work, but then that Priest is in effect, during the DL functioning as a Deacon.  And If you have never been at a DL with TWO Deacons during the Litany of the Catechumens....you are missing out even more!

The Deacon at my parish -enables- through his work and dedication, for our Priest to accomplish more, because the Deacon shares the work of the altar with him.

I have been to parishes with multiple deacons...and it truly was magnificent.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,563
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.

Not sure if I helped, but I don't want to type more unless I have to, so let me know.  :P

It did.  Thank you.  ;)
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,543
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
It's unfortunate that people resort to these ad hominem, to call you "anti-woman".  You raise valid questions, and I will answer them in my own understanding as follows.

I think there was always a need.  HOWEVER, the deaconate was recently seen as unnecessary and a waste of a rank, male or female.  But if the deaconate is necessary IN GENERAL, then there's a need.  That's the simple way I see things.

Yes, we can counsel and serve the poor and be theologically educated and all of that without the deaconate, but we need a "lead servant" that can coordinate that, and that has always been in the hands of the deacon, male and female, in the ancient Church.  It's about doing things decently and in order as St. Paul says.  That's all.

The centuries that was determined there was "no need" I thought were unfortunate.  There was always a need, and the fact that there were no female deacons even made the male deacons irrelevant in our practices.  Should we continue to keep irrelevant the deaconate as a whole?  Is that what the tradition of the Orthodox Church allows, to remove irrelevant ranks?  What determines an ordained rank irrelevant?

Every generation we have witnessed that the harvest is plenty, but the laborers are few.  I think it's time to recognize that the Church has not been very effective in bringing laborers to the harvest as speedily and necessarily as possible.

Hmmmm....thank you, Mina.  THIS was the first time it has made even a little sense to me....in view of the Deaconate, in general.

I do thoroughly enjoy the Liturgies when I visit other parishes that have deacons serving....but, my parish has NEVER had a deacon...so, perhaps my opinion is skewed towards the necessity of one.

What you say...in the sense of retaining a deaconate is starting to shine a light. 

Thank you.

You are not alone.  A recent upsurge of male Coptic deacons have made laity question its value.  Many are simply calling the male Coptic deacons "nothing but cup-bearers (alluding to the blood of Christ in the chalice) and a waste of parish resources".  When I hear that, I think that's the underlying disease in the symptom of our views of the holy orders of the Church, that we lack a good understanding of the spirituality behind the necessity of the holy orders.


Parishes that do not have Deacons in my opinion are missing out.  Fine if you have another Priest to do some of the work, but then that Priest is in effect, during the DL functioning as a Deacon.  And If you have never been at a DL with TWO Deacons during the Litany of the Catechumens....you are missing out even more!

The Deacon at my parish -enables- through his work and dedication, for our Priest to accomplish more, because the Deacon shares the work of the altar with him.

I have been to parishes with multiple deacons...and it truly was magnificent.

And just in case I wasnt totally clear....besides the altar based service our Deacon provides, he also basically runs the parish...keeps anything computerized functioning...the entirety of our nave as it should be..is the emergency pastoral contact when Father is out of town, etc..and generally is truly a servant of all. 

Our tiny little Mission parish would not be getting its 'full parish' wings in three weeks if he were not around to enable and assist everyone in doing what they need to do.

He really truly needs a Super Deacon suit for under his robes!
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

  • Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,237
  • Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Oriental Orthodox Church
I had a long and circular discussion on this topic on FB yesterday....and I am back at Square 1.  I simply do not understand the need.  ...and I do not understand why my not "getting it" upsets people so much. 

Hi Liza,

I can't speak for people on Facebook, but it could be, perhaps, because people seem unwilling to actually engage on this topic beyond their own point of view.  For example, earlier in the thread, you presented some arguments similar to those you are presenting now about "not seeing the need".  Irene and I both replied with links to arguments as to why such a ministry might be necessary in a Western context.  You never replied to those, but eventually made this post complaining about the unreasonable behavior of your interlocutors on Facebook who are not participants in the discussion here.  This could be read as an unwillingness to even consider the possibility that there might be a legitimate need, especially when this issue is so contentious, and people like Daniel are content to fire off unsubstantiated opinions without presenting evidence to support them even when called upon to do so.  See what I mean?

I've been painted as an uneducated, anti-woman, pseudo-believer....why?  Because I do not think women today need to be ordained? 

That's not fair, just as it is also not fair to portray those who wish to see the female diaconate restored as liberals or feminists.

Reason 1 which was given me....was that women have a need, a calling to fulfill.  However, other than priestly duties such as administering Eucharist, etc...what can the woman NOT do unless she is ordained?  She can counsel.  She can help others.  She can visit the sick.  What exactly can she not do that she will be able to do then?  I totally understand heeding the "call"....and having a huge desire to serve the Lord...but, do we need to be ordained to do so?

Not every servant needs to be ordained, but some do, and since it is part of the living history of the Church, there is no reason that women cannot be ordained in accordance with a ministry which has always been a part of our heritage as Orthodox Christians.  I also think there is an intrinsic value in ordained service - including the aspect of accountability and obedience to the bishop - that could be valuable in this context.  Please do check the links that Irene and I both provided earlier in response to your previous posts which elaborate a bit along these lines.

Reason 2 which I was given yesterday...education.  The woman will study to become a deaconess, and will be of greater value through her studies to society.  We, women, can study today.  We can gain our Masters Degrees, Doctorates, etc.  Seminaries are open to us.  There is nothing we cannot learn.  We cannot act upon some things we learn...but, we certainly can study until we run out of money.  So, this reason holds no water for me, either.

I think Mina has answered this.

Reason 3 - women can counsel abused women/men better than a man.  I was given examples of many abusive priests...who use their "rank" to "lord" it over people, some abuse their own wives, and when a battered woman comes to them, they tell her to shut-up and get back to her husband.  Granted this happens.  I have personally known a few "unpriestly" priests...and yet...women can be as nasty if not worse.   Women can be physically and mentally abusive, just like men.  I know some very power hungry women, who will stop at nothing for personal gain...and these same women might simply join the ranks of deaconesses in order to gain the "upper hand" over others.  Having two X chromosomes, does not guarantee kindness, tenderness and selflessness.  So, this reason also doesn't answer the question for me.

I don't think that vilifying priests is the answer - though I have heard priests tell abused women that it was "their cross" and that they should remain in the situation at the peril of their very life, which is ridiculous - but I do think there is a value in a woman counseling women on matters that they can relate to better than us guys, and I do think a deaconess could fit that role nicely.

Clearly, in ancient days the main reason for the deaconess was modesty...and while that reason is no longer valid, I have yet to find one that is.

You keep coming back to this, but I am not convinced this is the case.  Again, please see the response to this point made in my reply to your previous post.

Without a lot of fluff....can someone give me in one or two sentences "why" we need deaconesses in the U.S.A?

It's really unfair to dismiss the answers previously provided as "fluff", but I'll try again.  Please read this short essay: https://orthodoxdeaconess.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Karras-Diaconte-Conference-10-7-17.pdf

I really really want to get on this band wagon....but, I'm just not understanding the "why".  To me it is more of a "want" than a "need"...and if that is the case...and the bishops are happy to fulfill the "want" ....I will be 100% behind it...but, let's call it what it is.

Someone help me understand this.

In my experience, as a lifelong Orthodox Chrstian, there is a genuine need here.  I have known many young women, and laity in general, who would benefit either by serving in or being served by this ministry.  I would never be in favor of any innovation or any acquiescence to the heterodox West, but simultaneously, I am not afraid to discuss something that has always been a part of who we are because of an incidental resemblance to something the heterodox are doing either.  Despite Daniel's unsubstantiated and fearful carping, I don't see any evidence that the reinvigoration of the order of the deaconess in the Western Church necessarily has anything to do with Western manias like feminism or a female presbyterate or episcopate.  I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

  • Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,237
  • Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Oriental Orthodox Church
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Ainnir

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,249
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
In a Western context, this has far more to do with feminism than any realistic need.
This should read: Especially in a Western context, this has everything to do with a realistic need and nothing to do with feminism.

Without deaconesses, we have to go burden the nuns.
Plus everything Mina and Mor said.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,563
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.

Without a lot of fluff....can someone give me in one or two sentences "why" we need deaconesses in the U.S.A?

It's really unfair to dismiss the answers previously provided as "fluff", but I'll try again.  Please read this short essay: https://orthodoxdeaconess.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Karras-Diaconte-Conference-10-7-17.pdf


The "fluff" comment wasn't aimed at you...but, at the circular conversation I had with someone outside of this site.

...and again...if the hierarchs decide it is needed, I will be the strongest backer of their decision.  They "know" way more than I.  ;)

« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 01:18:19 PM by LizaSymonenko »
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Antonious Nikolas

  • Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,237
  • Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Oriental Orthodox Church

Without a lot of fluff....can someone give me in one or two sentences "why" we need deaconesses in the U.S.A?

It's really unfair to dismiss the answers previously provided as "fluff", but I'll try again.  Please read this short essay: https://orthodoxdeaconess.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Karras-Diaconte-Conference-10-7-17.pdf


The "fluff" comment wasn't aimed at you...but, at the circular conversation I had with someone outside of this site.

...and again...if the hierarchs decide it is needed, I will be the strongest backer of their decision.  They "know" way more than I.  ;)

Okay.  Thanks for the clarification.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline scamandrius

  • A man of many, many turns
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,196
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: DOWAMA of AANA

Without a lot of fluff....can someone give me in one or two sentences "why" we need deaconesses in the U.S.A?

It's really unfair to dismiss the answers previously provided as "fluff", but I'll try again.  Please read this short essay: https://orthodoxdeaconess.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Karras-Diaconte-Conference-10-7-17.pdf


The "fluff" comment wasn't aimed at you...but, at the circular conversation I had with someone outside of this site.

...and again...if the hierarchs decide it is needed, I will be the strongest backer of their decision.  They "know" way more than I.  ;)

Hierarchs also signed onto the Canons of the Council of Florence.  Because a hierarch backs something doesn't make it right, needed or good.
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,470
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Yeah, that situation is totally comparable.
Quote
Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop
- GK Chesteron, "Lepanto"

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,000
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Hierarchs also signed onto the Canons of the Council of Florence.  Because a hierarch backs something doesn't make it right, needed or good.

Let's suppose there's a female deacon in your area.  Your response will be:  away with you you colluder of Western heretical standards like the days of the signers of Florence and the followers of Mani and Arius!
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

  • Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,237
  • Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Oriental Orthodox Church
Hierarchs also signed onto the Canons of the Council of Florence.  Because a hierarch backs something doesn't make it right, needed or good.

Let's suppose there's a female deacon in your area.  Your response will be:  away with you you colluder of Western heretical standards like the days of the signers of Florence and the followers of Mani and Arius!

Good question.  What would you do, Scam?  Would you write your bishop and voice your opposition or what?
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,616
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
I think there was always a need.  HOWEVER, the deaconate was recently seen as unnecessary and a waste of a rank, male or female.  But if the deaconate is necessary IN GENERAL, then there's a need.  That's the simple way I see things.

Yes.  In a way, it's like we've gotten used to a simpler diet and see no need for extras.  But God's grace is both superabundance and bare necessity.   

The diaconate is apparently the oldest of the ancient orders established by the Apostles. Later, it was treated independently and with equal thoroughness as the episcopate by St. Paul writing St. Titus. To eliminate it or even trivialize it is to cast the "Apostolic" in "One holy catholic and Apostolic Church" into question. In my opinion, historically and practically, the redundancy of priest and bishop is more obvious than of deacon or any other office. While, on the other hand, in my opinion, the work the Church could be doing thru her diaconate, male and female, is much greater and more diverse than we have now or than those imagine whose frame of reference is only modern churches in which "church" functions as a venue rather than a Body.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,543
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
I think there was always a need.  HOWEVER, the deaconate was recently seen as unnecessary and a waste of a rank, male or female.  But if the deaconate is necessary IN GENERAL, then there's a need.  That's the simple way I see things.

Yes.  In a way, it's like we've gotten used to a simpler diet and see no need for extras.  But God's grace is both superabundance and bare necessity.   

The diaconate is apparently the oldest of the ancient orders established by the Apostles. Later, it was treated independently and with equal thoroughness as the episcopate by St. Paul writing St. Titus. To eliminate it or even trivialize it is to cast the "Apostolic" in "One holy catholic and Apostolic Church" into question. In my opinion, historically and practically, the redundancy of priest and bishop is more obvious than of deacon or any other office. While, on the other hand, in my opinion, the work the Church could be doing thru her diaconate, male and female, is much greater and more diverse than we have now or than those imagine whose frame of reference is only modern churches in which "church" functions as a venue rather than a Body.


where is Porter and what have you done with him?


;)
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,616
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
I think there was always a need.  HOWEVER, the deaconate was recently seen as unnecessary and a waste of a rank, male or female.  But if the deaconate is necessary IN GENERAL, then there's a need.  That's the simple way I see things.

Yes.  In a way, it's like we've gotten used to a simpler diet and see no need for extras.  But God's grace is both superabundance and bare necessity.   

The diaconate is apparently the oldest of the ancient orders established by the Apostles. Later, it was treated independently and with equal thoroughness as the episcopate by St. Paul writing St. Titus. To eliminate it or even trivialize it is to cast the "Apostolic" in "One holy catholic and Apostolic Church" into question. In my opinion, historically and practically, the redundancy of priest and bishop is more obvious than of deacon or any other office. While, on the other hand, in my opinion, the work the Church could be doing thru her diaconate, male and female, is much greater and more diverse than we have now or than those imagine whose frame of reference is only modern churches in which "church" functions as a venue rather than a Body.


where is Porter and what have you done with him?


;)

Do you recall my having a different opinion? I don't.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Ο προκαθήμενος της Ορθοδοξίας - The President of Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,221
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
I think there was always a need.  HOWEVER, the deaconate was recently seen as unnecessary and a waste of a rank, male or female.  But if the deaconate is necessary IN GENERAL, then there's a need.  That's the simple way I see things.

Yes.  In a way, it's like we've gotten used to a simpler diet and see no need for extras.  But God's grace is both superabundance and bare necessity.   

The diaconate is apparently the oldest of the ancient orders established by the Apostles. Later, it was treated independently and with equal thoroughness as the episcopate by St. Paul writing St. Titus. To eliminate it or even trivialize it is to cast the "Apostolic" in "One holy catholic and Apostolic Church" into question. In my opinion, historically and practically, the redundancy of priest and bishop is more obvious than of deacon or any other office. While, on the other hand, in my opinion, the work the Church could be doing thru her diaconate, male and female, is much greater and more diverse than we have now or than those imagine whose frame of reference is only modern churches in which "church" functions as a venue rather than a Body.


where is Porter and what have you done with him?


;)

Do you recall my having a different opinion? I don't.

"Happy birthday!"
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,543
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
I think there was always a need.  HOWEVER, the deaconate was recently seen as unnecessary and a waste of a rank, male or female.  But if the deaconate is necessary IN GENERAL, then there's a need.  That's the simple way I see things.

Yes.  In a way, it's like we've gotten used to a simpler diet and see no need for extras.  But God's grace is both superabundance and bare necessity.   

The diaconate is apparently the oldest of the ancient orders established by the Apostles. Later, it was treated independently and with equal thoroughness as the episcopate by St. Paul writing St. Titus. To eliminate it or even trivialize it is to cast the "Apostolic" in "One holy catholic and Apostolic Church" into question. In my opinion, historically and practically, the redundancy of priest and bishop is more obvious than of deacon or any other office. While, on the other hand, in my opinion, the work the Church could be doing thru her diaconate, male and female, is much greater and more diverse than we have now or than those imagine whose frame of reference is only modern churches in which "church" functions as a venue rather than a Body.


where is Porter and what have you done with him?


;)

Do you recall my having a different opinion? I don't.


Not the opinion but rather the delivery
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,616
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Been practicing my breathing exercises.

Oh and happy birthday, Denise.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,543
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Been practicing my breathing exercises.

Oh and happy birthday, Denise.


It shows. Good job.



And thanks
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Alpha60

  • Pray without ceasing!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,591
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
But if the deaconate is necessary IN GENERAL, then there's a need.

+1

+2

+4

+8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, etc.

Mina has posted a post which is agreeable almost to an infinite extent.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 09:38:07 PM by Alpha60 »
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Sharbel

  • Glory to God in all things!
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 568
  • Faith: Catechumen
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #111 on: November 01, 2017, 02:25:41 AM »
Is it truly a NEED or a WANT?
+1

Though an ancient practice whose context seems elusive, the contemporary context reeks of modernism, whether in the Orthodox or in the Catholic Churches.
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ

Offline IreneOlinyk

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 504
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #112 on: November 01, 2017, 08:59:05 AM »

Hmmmm....thank you, Mina.  THIS was the first time it has made even a little sense to me....in view of the Deaconate, in general.

Parishes that do not have Deacons in my opinion are missing out.  Fine if you have another Priest to do some of the work, but then that Priest is in effect, during the DL functioning as a Deacon.  And If you have never been at a DL with TWO Deacons during the Litany of the Catechumens....you are missing out even more!

The Deacon at my parish -enables- through his work and dedication, for our Priest to accomplish more, because the Deacon shares the work of the altar with him.
[/quote]

And just in case I wasnt totally clear....besides the altar based service our Deacon provides, he also basically runs the parish...keeps anything computerized functioning...the entirety of our nave as it should be..is the emergency pastoral contact when Father is out of town, etc..and generally is truly a servant of all. 

Our tiny little Mission parish would not be getting its 'full parish' wings in three weeks if he were not around to enable and assist everyone in doing what they need to do.

He really truly needs a Super Deacon suit for under his robes!
[/quote]



Thank you so much.  It is wonderful to read about a good functioning parish.  God bless your deacon. 
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 09:00:38 AM by IreneOlinyk »

Offline Antonious Nikolas

  • Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,237
  • Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Oriental Orthodox Church
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #113 on: November 01, 2017, 10:04:13 AM »
Is it truly a NEED or a WANT?
+1

Though an ancient practice whose context seems elusive, the contemporary context reeks of modernism, whether in the Orthodox or in the Catholic Churches.

I don't care about the Catholic churches, but what are you basing this on in terms of the Orthodoxy?
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Ο προκαθήμενος της Ορθοδοξίας - The President of Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,221
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #114 on: November 01, 2017, 10:37:30 AM »
Wasn't Priscilla a deaconess?
From the Greek, διάκονα, or servant.  It's clear from the text that neither Priscilla nor Phoebe had any official liturgical role. 

How is it clear?  It doesn't say one way or another.  And, in any case, what were "official liturgical roles" at such an early period? 

Quote
Besides, aren't we all Christians servants of the Lord?

We're also priests.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Ainnir

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,249
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #115 on: November 01, 2017, 11:19:39 AM »
Is it truly a NEED or a WANT?
+1

Though an ancient practice whose context seems elusive, the contemporary context reeks of modernism, whether in the Orthodox or in the Catholic Churches.

It doesn't, though.  To have a traditional view would be to admit the need for ordained women to minister to lay women.  This is about ministry, training, authority, and accountability.  And yes, modesty, too (definitely more than nude baptism).  It's not about women's rights, or validation, or interchangeability of the sexes.  If we were interchangeable, there wouldn't be a need for deaconesses.  The standards for holiness aren't different, but men and women are, and therefore struggle differently and with different things.  Liza rightly points out we don't need validation or "more" participation--this is not in question, and rights are something Orthodoxy sacrifices.  Very simply, Orthodox women need deaconesses to confide in and for spiritual direction.  This of course requires some Orthodox women to become deaconesses, but that's not the goal, it's the means to the end.  I'd contend (perhaps audaciously) that any woman looking at this like it's a step "up," an end in itself, or a source of validation has the wrong view and would be a poor candidate for such a ministry.  Much the way it is with the male clergy.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

  • Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,237
  • Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Oriental Orthodox Church
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #116 on: November 01, 2017, 11:31:35 AM »
Is it truly a NEED or a WANT?
+1

Though an ancient practice whose context seems elusive, the contemporary context reeks of modernism, whether in the Orthodox or in the Catholic Churches.

It doesn't, though.  To have a traditional view would be to admit the need for ordained women to minister to lay women.  This is about ministry, training, authority, and accountability.  And yes, modesty, too (definitely more than nude baptism).  It's not about women's rights, or validation, or interchangeability of the sexes.  If we were interchangeable, there wouldn't be a need for deaconesses.  The standards for holiness aren't different, but men and women are, and therefore struggle differently and with different things.  Liza rightly points out we don't need validation or "more" participation--this is not in question, and rights are something Orthodoxy sacrifices.  Very simply, Orthodox women need deaconesses to confide in and for spiritual direction.  This of course requires some Orthodox women to become deaconesses, but that's not the goal, it's the means to the end.  I'd contend (perhaps audaciously) that any woman looking at this like it's a step "up," an end in itself, or a source of validation has the wrong view and would be a poor candidate for such a ministry.  Much the way it is with the male clergy.

+1
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,616
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #117 on: November 01, 2017, 12:43:10 PM »
Is it truly a NEED or a WANT?
+1

Though an ancient practice whose context seems elusive, the contemporary context reeks of modernism, whether in the Orthodox or in the Catholic Churches.

It doesn't, though.  To have a traditional view would be to admit the need for ordained women to minister to lay women.  This is about ministry, training, authority, and accountability.  And yes, modesty, too (definitely more than nude baptism).  It's not about women's rights, or validation, or interchangeability of the sexes.  If we were interchangeable, there wouldn't be a need for deaconesses.  The standards for holiness aren't different, but men and women are, and therefore struggle differently and with different things.  Liza rightly points out we don't need validation or "more" participation--this is not in question, and rights are something Orthodoxy sacrifices.  Very simply, Orthodox women need deaconesses to confide in and for spiritual direction.  This of course requires some Orthodox women to become deaconesses, but that's not the goal, it's the means to the end.  I'd contend (perhaps audaciously) that any woman looking at this like it's a step "up," an end in itself, or a source of validation has the wrong view and would be a poor candidate for such a ministry.  Much the way it is with the male clergy.

Well said.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Global Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,441
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: POC, but my heart belongs to Antioch
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #118 on: November 01, 2017, 12:48:42 PM »
I don't think that reason is no longer valid, I just think we reduce "modesty" to "we don't baptise in the nude anymore" and think it is no longer a concern.  But there are all sorts of "modesty" concerns in the Church today.  For example, whenever I've catechised women in preparation for Baptism, if I couldn't do it in the church building itself during regular hours, I always did it in a public place (e.g., coffee shop).  There are a lot of similarly innocuous situations in which "modesty" concerns come into play and can erupt into something bad without a lot of vigilance.   

That's another very good reason, both for mission areas (some societies woudn't allow to a foreign man to do catechesis to one woman or even to a whole group) and in the Western World.

As I said, many women have more knowledge, theological and spiritual, they do care about emotions of other people, so they can be good readers, chantes, missionaries, teachers etc. - all the things of which the diaconate consists.

And I agree with the observations above that the diaconate, generally, also of men, is very often undervaluated. And I say that despite the fact that my parish has 2 deacons (and until this year March we had 3, but one of them aftery many years being a diacon was ordained to be a presbiter), so, I would say, we appreciate their work.
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

My Orthodox liturgical blog "For what eat, while you can fast" in Polish (videos featuring chants in different languages)

Offline Sharbel

  • Glory to God in all things!
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 568
  • Faith: Catechumen
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #119 on: November 02, 2017, 11:03:09 PM »
Though an ancient practice whose context seems elusive, the contemporary context reeks of modernism, whether in the Orthodox or in the Catholic Churches.
I don't care about the Catholic churches, but what are you basing this on in terms of the Orthodoxy?
The contemporary context is common to both Churches as the time in which they currently exist.
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ

Offline Antonious Nikolas

  • Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,237
  • Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Oriental Orthodox Church
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #120 on: November 03, 2017, 09:40:06 AM »
Though an ancient practice whose context seems elusive, the contemporary context reeks of modernism, whether in the Orthodox or in the Catholic Churches.
I don't care about the Catholic churches, but what are you basing this on in terms of the Orthodoxy?
The contemporary context is common to both Churches as the time in which they currently exist.

That's not an answer.  Are you postulating that the spirit of the times has entered the Orthodox Church in the same way that it has penetrated Catholicism and that this is what is motivating the push for the restoration of the order of the deaconess?  If so, you'll have to post proof, because from what I have seen and read so far, this is not the case, and I'm not willing to take your word on it.  You - and the other would be critics of the restoration of the order of the deaconess in the Orthodox Church - are going to have to give those of us who disagree with you something more than petulant one-liners if you are really interested in dialogue.  If you're just interested in expressing your general discontent with something many of you don't truly understand though, based on your cranky political perspective, by all means, carry on.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Sharbel

  • Glory to God in all things!
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 568
  • Faith: Catechumen
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #121 on: November 03, 2017, 10:09:30 AM »
Though an ancient practice whose context seems elusive, the contemporary context reeks of modernism, whether in the Orthodox or in the Catholic Churches.
I don't care about the Catholic churches, but what are you basing this on in terms of the Orthodoxy?
The contemporary context is common to both Churches as the time in which they currently exist.
That's not an answer.  Are you postulating that the spirit of the times has entered the Orthodox Church in the same way that it has penetrated Catholicism and that this is what is motivating the push for the restoration of the order of the deaconess?...
I am not postulating it, but wondering about it.  Is it forbidden to wonder in the Orthodox Church?
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,470
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #122 on: November 03, 2017, 10:10:20 AM »
A lot of rhetorical "wondering" in this thread.
Quote
Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop
- GK Chesteron, "Lepanto"

Offline Sharbel

  • Glory to God in all things!
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 568
  • Faith: Catechumen
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #123 on: November 03, 2017, 10:28:16 AM »
A lot of rhetorical "wondering" in this thread.
I expect oc.net to summarize this thread in a report and send its recommendation to all patriarchs of the East.
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ

Offline Antonious Nikolas

  • Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,237
  • Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Oriental Orthodox Church
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #124 on: November 03, 2017, 10:38:41 AM »
I am not postulating it, but wondering about it.  Is it forbidden to wonder in the Orthodox Church?

Really?

Though an ancient practice whose context seems elusive, the contemporary context reeks of modernism, whether in the Orthodox or in the Catholic Churches.

The contemporary context is common to both Churches as the time in which they currently exist.

Do you have ESL issues, then?  Because these read like declarative statements.

You have stated here that the contemporary context in which the argument for the restoration of the order of the deaconess has been made "reeks of modernism" and that this context is common to the conditions under which the argument has been made in both the Roman Church and the Orthodox Church.  No wondering involved.  Based on this:

Is it forbidden to wonder in the Orthodox Church?

You seem to know how to formulate questions, i.e., to wonder aloud about something.  This is not the form you used for the off-base declarative statements you made about the modern context informing the arguments presently being made for the restoration of the order of the deaconess.  If you're sincerely befuddled when it comes to the appropriate use of punctuation and sentence structure in the English language, work on that.  If you're simply playing games, by all means, support your arguments with something approaching factual information.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 10:39:24 AM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

  • Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,237
  • Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Oriental Orthodox Church
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #125 on: November 03, 2017, 10:42:14 AM »
A lot of rhetorical "wondering" in this thread.

Offered in lieu of actual arguments.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,616
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #126 on: November 03, 2017, 01:10:16 PM »
Though an ancient practice whose context seems elusive, the contemporary context reeks of modernism, whether in the Orthodox or in the Catholic Churches.
I don't care about the Catholic churches, but what are you basing this on in terms of the Orthodoxy?
The contemporary context is common to both Churches as the time in which they currently exist.

That's not an answer.  Are you postulating that the spirit of the times has entered the Orthodox Church in the same way that it has penetrated Catholicism and that this is what is motivating the push for the restoration of the order of the deaconess?  If so, you'll have to post proof, because from what I have seen and read so far, this is not the case, and I'm not willing to take your word on it.  You - and the other would be critics of the restoration of the order of the deaconess in the Orthodox Church - are going to have to give those of us who disagree with you something more than petulant one-liners if you are really interested in dialogue.  If you're just interested in expressing your general discontent with something many of you don't truly understand though, based on your cranky political perspective, by all means, carry on.

What he's saying is that women have gotten uppity worldwide, and it's no time to be encouraging them.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Antonious Nikolas

  • Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,237
  • Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Oriental Orthodox Church
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #127 on: November 03, 2017, 02:07:44 PM »
Though an ancient practice whose context seems elusive, the contemporary context reeks of modernism, whether in the Orthodox or in the Catholic Churches.
I don't care about the Catholic churches, but what are you basing this on in terms of the Orthodoxy?
The contemporary context is common to both Churches as the time in which they currently exist.

That's not an answer.  Are you postulating that the spirit of the times has entered the Orthodox Church in the same way that it has penetrated Catholicism and that this is what is motivating the push for the restoration of the order of the deaconess?  If so, you'll have to post proof, because from what I have seen and read so far, this is not the case, and I'm not willing to take your word on it.  You - and the other would be critics of the restoration of the order of the deaconess in the Orthodox Church - are going to have to give those of us who disagree with you something more than petulant one-liners if you are really interested in dialogue.  If you're just interested in expressing your general discontent with something many of you don't truly understand though, based on your cranky political perspective, by all means, carry on.

What he's saying is that women have gotten uppity worldwide, and it's no time to be encouraging them.

Indeed.  And every insecure wuss on the forum knows how best to handle that problem.

I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline irishpilgrim

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 45
  • St.Antony, Enlightener of St.Patrick, PrayForIrish
  • Faith: ORTHODOX Coptic
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #128 on: November 03, 2017, 02:26:53 PM »
I surrender. You won this argument; I'll concede to the fact that I misinterpreted your intention of posting; and I don't intend to give an excuse other than from your first post alone gave the impression of trying to censor by means of ad hominem- which I can clearly see isn't your intention at all.

As previously stated, my intention was never to censor anyone by means of ad hominem, but rather:

a. to indicate how an individual who is just starting to learn about Orthodoxy, such as Daniel, is less than qualified to speak to the issue of whether or not there is a pastoral need for the restoration of the order of the deaconess within the Orthodox Church.

b. to suggest that if an individual in such a position cares to offer an opinion, he should do so respectfully.

If I was harsh in doing so it was because:

a. Daniel was snide, highhanded, and condemnatory in his initial post.

b. No offense, but as Mor has pointed out, this board has been lousy lately with wet-behind-the-ears inquirers scolding actual Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Christians for being everything from ecumenists to heretics, and frankly, I'm getting sick of it.

We've got one kid on here who couldn't even decide if he wanted to be Coptic Orthodox or ROCOR for the longest, but he knew one thing for sure, mainstream EO Christians were ecumenist, new calendar heretics and he was gonna tell 'em so in no uncertain terms, even though he wasn't even a catechumen yet.  People like that need to get verbally knocked on their behinds from time to time.  It's good for them.

And you are obviously more informed on the matter, compared to someone as ignorant as me. I also never once wanted to state my opinion on the matter of deaconesses, I attacked on the mere principle of attacking the individual.

Well, as I said, you were off base.  My advice to folks like Daniel: if you can't take it, don't dish it out.  Don't think you're going to come on here lecturing the Orthodox about how they're caving in to secular feminism and headed for schism when you haven't even finished The Orthodox Way yet because you took a break to play Pokémon Go or watch Fox & Friends.  In the words of the late, great Robin Harris, "I ain't your daddy, and I ain't havin' it".



You will get shut down.

It will seem to come from weakness that I made surrendered, but it was me assuming that I was dealing with someone who was attacking with a basis of emotional feelings rather than a rational thought process I'm not familiar with.

Now that you know better, I hope it will lead you towards embracing Orthodoxy on its own terms.

I'm sorry for my hubris and my false sense of being a "Crusader of Orthodoxy," which I'm not. I am filled with pride, and need your prayers.

Apology accepted.

Nevertheless, I am still quite offended at some of the very immature points thrown at me, such as the juvenile name calling.

Well, like you said, I was just kidding around.  That said, since you were offended, I apologize to you for any quip that got your goat.

And I'm a former Roman Catholic in my beliefs, and I am used to dealing with people who use such techniques of spreading heterodoxy by means of immature and ill informed tactics.

Crushing heterodoxy is what I'm all about.

I deeply respect and agree with LivenotoneviL's purpose, courage, theology, wisdom, intelligence, skill, and blessed humility in response to the evil, uncouth, abusive ignorance and arrogance that has been viciously screamed at her, without any scriptural nor patristic support, in open favor of heterodox ordination of female deacons, and in deceptive favor of eventual heterodox ordination of female, feminist Orthodox priests and bishops.

Such demonic feminist grasps for prohibited spiritual status and office were clearly denied, by God, mankind's creator, when Woman, our feminist prototype, was corrected and sentenced at Genesis 3:16; and our forefather, Adam and his descendants , were corrected and sentenced at Genesis 3:17-19. All relevant O.T. passages confirm these subservient spiritual and social roles for all women. SS Peter and Paul and all relevant Orthodox Christian Patristic Fathers provided consistent Holy Scriptures, Commentaries and Canons to truly guide the Christian Church without contradiction to God's original judgment and sentence for the conduct of all holy proceedings of God's loyal servants. Accordingly, all actual and imagined past  deviations from God's specific judgment of all women's duty of submission to her designated relevant male ruler. Accordingly, any and all earlier ordination of women for ruling of any function of a Christian Church is illegitimate and irregular.

I'm amazed by LivenotoneviL's strict compliance with the Scriptural and Patristic rules for women's meaningful participation in Holy Orthodox Church life, including the following: St. Peter instructs holy wives (submissive women) to be submissive, even to errant husbands (men of the church) so that the misbehaving rulers may be won without a word by the woman's gentle, chaste and reverent behavior. In spite of the despicable abuse that she received. 1 Peter 3:1-6. Here, the "CRUSHING," hypocritical self-appointed "ruler" should be hard put to expect benefit from his aberrant, evil for evil, reviling for reviling prayers. 1 Peter 3:7-12. Including his obvious redefinition of the seemingly speculative EO theology of common, garden variety theosis.

It is sad that the EO and OO churches are now racing to overtake the Catholic Church's dive into apostasy that it appears that LivenotoneviL is seeking to avoid in the historical (now sadly only rarely) orthodox Churches. I'm stunned by the substitution of freudian psycho "medicine" for scriptural and patristic Orthodox gender and family theology and practice in the worldwide Coptic Church since my catechesis and baptism twenty one years ago. The Greek and Catholic Churches were bottom feeding on this cursed swill then, and continue racing to meaninglessness. The latest news is that the U.S. Greek Church is also financially bankrupt. All of their entrenched psychologists and divorce lawyers must not be kicking back as expected.

Were you Irish Catholic, LivenotoneviL? Your straight walk through this demonic dialectic challenge reminds me of the solid spirited, clear sighted women of my long lost Irish roots. If so, you may be interested in the theory that Coptic monks, catechized and taught monastic life to St. Patrick, et. al., circa 420 AD, which was the basis for civilizing the Irish, and the later Irish monks' salvation of Western civilization, after the fall of Rome and Western Europe. See, How the Irish Saved Civilization. Which most of the world's modern Irish have now repaganized and squandered. My feelings of mystical kindred to common faithful Copts energizes me. Through this irrational torture, you have clearly demonstrated the holy female spirit (not aggressive nagging for illegitimate clerical ordination) that St. Paul instructed Titus to urge. "Bid the older women likewise to be reverent in behavior, not to be slanders or slaves to drink; they are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be sensible, chaste, domestic, kind and submissive to their husbands (ruling men), that the word of God may not be discredited." Although weak, heterodox jurisdictions may have ventured into various female ordination apostasies in the past, this doesn't authorize repetition. Very recently, the revolution of Catholic nuns and their feminist clerical and episcopal sympathizers has been closely related to the expensive and scandalous Catholic clerical and youth homosexual and pedophilia epidemic that has also invaded Greek Orthodox clerical, social and monastic groups. Why do all of these innovative modern spiritual revolutions so closely resemble their failed historical predecessors, and even the gross failure Eve's first exercise of leadership equality in God's Garden? Genesis 3:1-24.

NOTE TO ALL CRITICS: For your own benefit, please only respond with relevant corrective Scriptural and Patristic references. None of your earlier disingenuous fabrications and ad hominems have been effective, except to repeatedly prove your own ignorance and deficiencies.   

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,616
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #129 on: November 03, 2017, 02:32:56 PM »
Pretty sure LivenotoneviL is a teenaged young man. Hope that doesn't ruin -- whatever fantasy we all just had to read there.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Ο προκαθήμενος της Ορθοδοξίας - The President of Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,221
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #130 on: November 03, 2017, 02:33:40 PM »
...

If your Christianity was real Christianity, I'd return to the idol worship of my ancestors. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,470
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #131 on: November 03, 2017, 02:36:01 PM »
Pretty sure LivenotoneviL is a teenaged young man. Hope that doesn't ruin -- whatever fantasy we all just had to read there.

Anyone can embody the spirit of pure Irish womanhood.
Quote
Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop
- GK Chesteron, "Lepanto"

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,616
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #132 on: November 03, 2017, 02:37:27 PM »
NOTE TO ALL CRITICS: For your own benefit, please only respond with relevant corrective Scriptural and Patristic references. None of your earlier disingenuous fabrications and ad hominems have been effective, except to repeatedly prove your own ignorance and deficiencies.

Then perhaps you should offer something of substance yourself. As I read it, you've burdened us mostly with bitter emotion, against us or against contemporary mores. And a novel interpretation of Genesis that sets the account of the Fall against the plain report of Scripture regarding deaconesses and other women coworkers of the Apostles. Well, most of us are unlikely to accept such a use of the Scripture against itself, and as I read it you've addressed directly none of the actual material e.g. that posted by Antonious Nicholas and Irene Oleynik. How is it you expect others to respond to your post in a way you cannot respond to theirs?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,000
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #133 on: November 03, 2017, 02:42:30 PM »
Pretty sure LivenotoneviL is a teenaged young man. Hope that doesn't ruin -- whatever fantasy we all just had to read there.

Anyone can embody the spirit of pure Irish womanhood.

I can’t, but I might be able to attract them with my lucky charms.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Ο προκαθήμενος της Ορθοδοξίας - The President of Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,221
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #134 on: November 03, 2017, 02:51:08 PM »
Pretty sure LivenotoneviL is a teenaged young man. Hope that doesn't ruin -- whatever fantasy we all just had to read there.

Anyone can embody the spirit of pure Irish womanhood.

I can’t, but I might be able to attract them with my lucky charms.

Are they magically delicious?
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).