Author Topic: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess  (Read 4568 times)

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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #180 on: November 05, 2017, 04:55:31 PM »
No. 1: She doesn't say that the theological arguments against a priesthood are week. She says the theology is weak. It's unambiguous.

Actually, on my point No. 1 below, Karras says both. She says the theological arguments against a female priesthood are weak because the theology against a female priesthood is weak. It's still unambiguous.

How do you figure?  In the sentence you figure for the money quote, she says: "That people feel the need to resort to such distorting and unsound arguments is itself, I believe, proof of the theological weakness of the opposition to the restoration of the ordained female diaconate and even the ordination of women to the priesthood."

The theological arguments advanced against the ordination of women to the diaconate are weak, and, to Karras' mind, those same arguments applied to the ordination of women to the priesthood are also weak.  It doesn't necessarily follow, then, that all arguments advanced against the ordination of women to the priesthood are invalid or weak.

No. 2: Yep. I'm on faculty at a university you've heard of (a top-10 public), and my particular college is among the best in the country (top 5 among AAU schools). I've published in several journals rated as "A" in my field.

Okay, cool.  We have a lot in common in this regard.

At my RateMyProfessor page, there are 127 reviews with an average rating of 4.3, all within the past three years. The students have also kindly rated me as hot.

LOL @ this though.  I have a higher rating than you on RateMyProfessors, and I'm consistently rated as hot, but I don't put much stock in this.  The fact that you do is...weird.

I know whatof I speak, and adjuncting is for folks who aren't taken seriously in their field.

You have your opinion on the matter.  Let's leave it at that.  Speaking as someone who has likewise landed a tenure track job (more than once) I can honestly say I know guys who've been adjuncting forever - some of them because they want it that way - whose shoes neither of us are fit to shine.  This being the case, I'm willing to give Karras the benefit of the doubt.

If her colleagues don't take her seriously enough to give her a tenure track job, I hope the Orthodox hierarchy don't take her or her pals seriously enough to let her futz with liturgics. If we're going to have deaconesses -- and perhaps we should -- then let's do it by the book and above suspicion.

I can live with that.  I'm not here to defend Karras per se - though I do think you've been unfair to her - but rather to defend the idea of the restoration of the female diaconate from kneejerk reactionaries who see a liberal or a feminist behind every bush and have nothing to back that up with.

In the meantime, the St. Phoebe Center should revise their advisory board if they want mainstream credibility. Karras is a weak sister.

Seriously, are you gonna write them?  Are you saying this because you wish them success and want to see them to shore up what you see as a weak link, or do you just want to hear yourself talk?
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #181 on: November 05, 2017, 06:47:01 PM »
Not all of her "friends" - including those interested in a restoration of the female diaconate - are interested in pushing for female ordination to the priesthood.  It is not an "either or" scenario in the case of deaconesses.

Let's say I am not aware that any of those mentioned has argued for maintaining a male-only priesthood, not that they have contradicted her when she asked for female priests. Neither have they contradicted her when she asked the Church to accept SSM.

Offline Rambam

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #182 on: November 05, 2017, 07:11:07 PM »
I doubt you have any of those academic credentials in common with me.



No. 1: She doesn't say that the theological arguments against a priesthood are week. She says the theology is weak. It's unambiguous.

Actually, on my point No. 1 below, Karras says both. She says the theological arguments against a female priesthood are weak because the theology against a female priesthood is weak. It's still unambiguous.

How do you figure?  In the sentence you figure for the money quote, she says: "That people feel the need to resort to such distorting and unsound arguments is itself, I believe, proof of the theological weakness of the opposition to the restoration of the ordained female diaconate and even the ordination of women to the priesthood."

The theological arguments advanced against the ordination of women to the diaconate are weak, and, to Karras' mind, those same arguments applied to the ordination of women to the priesthood are also weak.  It doesn't necessarily follow, then, that all arguments advanced against the ordination of women to the priesthood are invalid or weak.

No. 2: Yep. I'm on faculty at a university you've heard of (a top-10 public), and my particular college is among the best in the country (top 5 among AAU schools). I've published in several journals rated as "A" in my field.

Okay, cool.  We have a lot in common in this regard.

At my RateMyProfessor page, there are 127 reviews with an average rating of 4.3, all within the past three years. The students have also kindly rated me as hot.

LOL @ this though.  I have a higher rating than you on RateMyProfessors, and I'm consistently rated as hot, but I don't put much stock in this.  The fact that you do is...weird.

I know whatof I speak, and adjuncting is for folks who aren't taken seriously in their field.

You have your opinion on the matter.  Let's leave it at that.  Speaking as someone who has likewise landed a tenure track job (more than once) I can honestly say I know guys who've been adjuncting forever - some of them because they want it that way - whose shoes neither of us are fit to shine.  This being the case, I'm willing to give Karras the benefit of the doubt.

If her colleagues don't take her seriously enough to give her a tenure track job, I hope the Orthodox hierarchy don't take her or her pals seriously enough to let her futz with liturgics. If we're going to have deaconesses -- and perhaps we should -- then let's do it by the book and above suspicion.

I can live with that.  I'm not here to defend Karras per se - though I do think you've been unfair to her - but rather to defend the idea of the restoration of the female diaconate from kneejerk reactionaries who see a liberal or a feminist behind every bush and have nothing to back that up with.

In the meantime, the St. Phoebe Center should revise their advisory board if they want mainstream credibility. Karras is a weak sister.

Seriously, are you gonna write them?  Are you saying this because you wish them success and want to see them to shore up what you see as a weak link, or do you just want to hear yourself talk?

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #183 on: November 05, 2017, 07:14:48 PM »
I doubt you have any of those academic credentials in common with me.

In that case you have won the thread!

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #184 on: November 05, 2017, 07:22:19 PM »
The longer I stay in academia, the longer I realize how much of a crock it is. It's not something to be proud of.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #185 on: November 05, 2017, 08:57:00 PM »
Let's say I am not aware that any of those mentioned has argued for maintaining a male-only priesthood, not that they have contradicted her when she asked for female priests. Neither have they contradicted her when she asked the Church to accept SSM.

Contradicted her in what sense?  As in, wrote a piece directly challenging her theses?  In that sense, you might be right.  In another sense, you might be wrong, as the St. Phoebe Center has stated directly that they are not advocating for a female priesthood.

I doubt you have any of those academic credentials in common with me.

I doubt you have any of the academic credentials you've claimed here to begin with.  Most especially as it pertains to any of your students thinking you're hot.  :laugh:

If you were as high falutin' as you claim to be, you wouldn't put so much stock in something like Rate My Professors.

And for the record, I never said we had everything in common in terms of particular accomplishments and accolades.  We're not even in the same discipline.  I was simply pointing out that we're both in academia and - if we're to believe your crowing - we're both reasonably accomplished in our fields.  To hell with me for trying to keep this civil by trying to find some common ground and keep this civil, right?  You can go back to being a tool now.

In that case you have won the thread!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 09:07:18 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Rambam

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #186 on: November 05, 2017, 10:34:15 PM »
Different "discipline," indeed. I suspect your discipline has a much stronger resemblance to "janitorial services at a vo-tech" than it does an "academic appointment at an AAU member institution." Hence, your affinity for washed-up adjuncts and perma-grad students (i.e., Regule).

We do agree with one thing, though. That part where you said "to hell with me."

 :-*

 

Let's say I am not aware that any of those mentioned has argued for maintaining a male-only priesthood, not that they have contradicted her when she asked for female priests. Neither have they contradicted her when she asked the Church to accept SSM.

Contradicted her in what sense?  As in, wrote a piece directly challenging her theses?  In that sense, you might be right.  In another sense, you might be wrong, as the St. Phoebe Center has stated directly that they are not advocating for a female priesthood.

I doubt you have any of those academic credentials in common with me.

I doubt you have any of the academic credentials you've claimed here to begin with.  Most especially as it pertains to any of your students thinking you're hot.  :laugh:

If you were as high falutin' as you claim to be, you wouldn't put so much stock in something like Rate My Professors.

And for the record, I never said we had everything in common in terms of particular accomplishments and accolades.  We're not even in the same discipline.  I was simply pointing out that we're both in academia and - if we're to believe your crowing - we're both reasonably accomplished in our fields.  To hell with me for trying to keep this civil by trying to find some common ground and keep this civil, right?  You can go back to being a tool now.

In that case you have won the thread!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Offline Rambam

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #187 on: November 05, 2017, 10:48:48 PM »
On the "Resources" page of the St. Phoebe Center, you can find an article by Maria McDowell, in which she argues for a female priesthood.

Here's the link to the "Resources" page: https://orthodoxdeaconess.org/resources/ ... you can find the McDowell article as the second-to-last entry of the "Articles & Letters" section of the page. Here is the link to the article: http://www.stnina.org/online-journal/feature-articles/newness-spirit-ordination-men-and-women

The St. Phoebe Center presents this article as a resource.

I support female diaconate. But the St. Phoebe Center seems to be conflicted about their agenda, whether they just want a female diaconate or a female priesthood.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #188 on: November 05, 2017, 10:49:53 PM »
Rambam, take care, as the greater you inflate your "credentials," the less grace readers are likely to afford the very contrasting content of your posts.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #189 on: November 05, 2017, 10:58:52 PM »
On the "Resources" page of the St. Phoebe Center, you can find an article by Maria McDowell, in which she argues for a female priesthood.

Here's the link to the "Resources" page: https://orthodoxdeaconess.org/resources/ ... you can find the McDowell article as the second-to-last entry of the "Articles & Letters" section of the page. Here is the link to the article: http://www.stnina.org/online-journal/feature-articles/newness-spirit-ordination-men-and-women

The St. Phoebe Center presents this article as a resource.

I support female diaconate. But the St. Phoebe Center seems to be conflicted about their agenda, whether they just want a female diaconate or a female priesthood.

I read the article, and it is indeed dross. However, I can see its place in a list of upwards of 30 "resources" for the discussion of deaconesses in Orthodoxy, as it does present some of such conversation. The St. Phoebe Center does not make the statements you object to their own. I'd ask you to have a little perspective, but your posts caricaturize you as someone who finds blurry regions beyond the end of his nose, so I forbear.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #190 on: November 05, 2017, 11:18:38 PM »
Different "discipline," indeed. I suspect your discipline has a much stronger resemblance to "janitorial services at a vo-tech"

Yeah, I'm your daddy's supervisor.  Tell him if he's late one more time, I'm giving Melvin all of his shifts next week and one of her other beaus will have to keep Ma Rambam in cookie dough and King Cobra.

than it does an "academic appointment at an AAU member institution."

I'm quite you've got an appointment at an AA institution you need to get to.  Don't let me hold you up.  And don't bother threatening me about what you'd do if we were face to face like you did last time we had words.  We both know you wouldn't do a thing.  Your tough guy routine rings about as hollow as your academic routine.  You may admire Papa Hemingway enough to make him your avatar, but the only things you've likely got in common with are weight problems and a propensity for self destruction.  It certainly isn't wit or style of prose.

Hence, your affinity for washed-up adjuncts and perma-grad students (i.e., Regule).

I'd be willing to bet if you lined their CVs up with yours, theirs wouldn't be the ones that come up lacking.

We do agree with one thing, though. That part where you said "to hell with me."

Save a seat for me, pal.  You'll get there before I will.

On the "Resources" page of the St. Phoebe Center, you can find an article by Maria McDowell, in which she argues for a female priesthood.

Here's the link to the "Resources" page: https://orthodoxdeaconess.org/resources/ ... you can find the McDowell article as the second-to-last entry of the "Articles & Letters" section of the page. Here is the link to the article: http://www.stnina.org/online-journal/feature-articles/newness-spirit-ordination-men-and-women

The St. Phoebe Center presents this article as a resource.

I support female diaconate. But the St. Phoebe Center seems to be conflicted about their agenda, whether they just want a female diaconate or a female priesthood.

Yeah, I noticed that too, and the article is certainly not something I'd endorse.  I've never been a McDowell fan, and we all know where she ended up.  Nevertheless, if you were really the academic you claim to be, you'd realize that building a database of articles that might be used as resources for further study doesn't necessarily mean that you endorse 100% of the content of each and every article.  It just means that there might be something in there that might be useful to someone researching all aspects of the topic.  Including the article as a resource for researchers doesn't mean that the organization endorses its content.  A top shelf academic like you should know this.  Unless you're really just a crank with an axe to grind.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 11:29:13 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Rambam

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #191 on: November 05, 2017, 11:27:54 PM »
It's John Malkovich dressed up as Hemingway.  Wouldn't expect a votech janitor like you to know that, though. Or be able to pronounce Malkovich. Or spell it.

"I'm quite you've got an appointment ..."  What is that, English?



Different "discipline," indeed. I suspect your discipline has a much stronger resemblance to "janitorial services at a vo-tech"

Yeah, I'm your daddy's supervisor.  Tell him if he's late one more time, I'm giving Melvin all of his shifts next week and one of her other beaus will have to keep Ma Rambam in cookie dough and King Cobra.

than it does an "academic appointment at an AAU member institution."

I'm quite you've got an appointment at an AA institution you need to get to.  Don't let me hold you up.  And don't bother threatening me about what you'd do if we were face to face like you did last time we had words.  We both know you wouldn't do a thing.  Your tough guy routine rings about as hollow as your academic routine.  You may admire Papa Hemingway enough to make him your avatar, but the only things you've likely got in common with are weight problems and a propensity for self destruction.  It certainly isn't wit or style of prose.

Hence, your affinity for washed-up adjuncts and perma-grad students (i.e., Regule).

I'd be willing to bet if you lined their CVs up with yours, theirs wouldn't be the ones that come up lacking.

We do agree with one thing, though. That part where you said "to hell with me."

Save a seat for me, pal.  You'll get there before I will.

On the "Resources" page of the St. Phoebe Center, you can find an article by Maria McDowell, in which she argues for a female priesthood.

Here's the link to the "Resources" page: https://orthodoxdeaconess.org/resources/ ... you can find the McDowell article as the second-to-last entry of the "Articles & Letters" section of the page. Here is the link to the article: http://www.stnina.org/online-journal/feature-articles/newness-spirit-ordination-men-and-women

The St. Phoebe Center presents this article as a resource.

I support female diaconate. But the St. Phoebe Center seems to be conflicted about their agenda, whether they just want a female diaconate or a female priesthood.

Yeah, I noticed that too, and the article is certainly not something I'd endorse.  I've never been a McDowell fan, and we all know where she ended up.  Nevertheless, if you were really the academic you claim to be, you'd realize that building a database of articles that might be used as resources for further study doesn't necessarily mean that you endorse 100% of the content of each and every article.  It just means that there might be something in there that might be useful to someone researching all aspects of the topic.  Including the article as a resource for researchers doesn't mean that the organization endorses its content.  A top shelf academic like you should know this.  Unless you're really just a crank with an axe to grind.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #192 on: November 05, 2017, 11:44:35 PM »
It's John Malkovich dressed up as Hemingway.  Wouldn't expect a votech janitor like you to know that, though. Or be able to pronounce Malkovich. Or spell it.

Even better.  So it's an actor masquerading as a writer.  What an appropriate avatar for a phony like you.

"I'm quite you've got an appointment ..."  What is that, English?

Jumping all over the fact that I omitted the word "sure" in the phrase "I'm quite sure you've got an appointment..." is the closest you'll get to getting up on the scoreboard tonight, especially after that last pathetic post of yours.  The big professor thinks including an article in a database means you're co-signing every word of it.  Yeah, I'm sure you teach at "an institution we've all heard of before": Full Sail University!  Go DC-3s!!!
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #193 on: November 06, 2017, 12:12:24 AM »
At my RateMyProfessor page, there are 127 reviews with an average rating of 4.3, all within the past three years. The students have also kindly rated me as hot.

LOL @ this though.  I have a higher rating than you on RateMyProfessors, and I'm consistently rated as hot, but I don't put much stock in this.  The fact that you do is...weird.
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Offline Rambam

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #194 on: November 06, 2017, 03:16:57 AM »
You know, you're not supposed to eat the urinal cakes, right? Just replace them.

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Different "discipline," indeed. I suspect your discipline has a much stronger resemblance to "janitorial services at a vo-tech"

Yeah, I'm your daddy's supervisor.  Tell him if he's late one more time, I'm giving Melvin all of his shifts next week and one of her other beaus will have to keep Ma Rambam in cookie dough and King Cobra.

than it does an "academic appointment at an AAU member institution."

I'm quite you've got an appointment at an AA institution you need to get to.  Don't let me hold you up.  And don't bother threatening me about what you'd do if we were face to face like you did last time we had words.  We both know you wouldn't do a thing.  Your tough guy routine rings about as hollow as your academic routine.  You may admire Papa Hemingway enough to make him your avatar, but the only things you've likely got in common with are weight problems and a propensity for self destruction.  It certainly isn't wit or style of prose.

Hence, your affinity for washed-up adjuncts and perma-grad students (i.e., Regule).

I'd be willing to bet if you lined their CVs up with yours, theirs wouldn't be the ones that come up lacking.

We do agree with one thing, though. That part where you said "to hell with me."

Save a seat for me, pal.  You'll get there before I will.

On the "Resources" page of the St. Phoebe Center, you can find an article by Maria McDowell, in which she argues for a female priesthood.

Here's the link to the "Resources" page: https://orthodoxdeaconess.org/resources/ ... you can find the McDowell article as the second-to-last entry of the "Articles & Letters" section of the page. Here is the link to the article: http://www.stnina.org/online-journal/feature-articles/newness-spirit-ordination-men-and-women

The St. Phoebe Center presents this article as a resource.

I support female diaconate. But the St. Phoebe Center seems to be conflicted about their agenda, whether they just want a female diaconate or a female priesthood.

Yeah, I noticed that too, and the article is certainly not something I'd endorse.  I've never been a McDowell fan, and we all know where she ended up.  Nevertheless, if you were really the academic you claim to be, you'd realize that building a database of articles that might be used as resources for further study doesn't necessarily mean that you endorse 100% of the content of each and every article.  It just means that there might be something in there that might be useful to someone researching all aspects of the topic.  Including the article as a resource for researchers doesn't mean that the organization endorses its content.  A top shelf academic like you should know this.  Unless you're really just a crank with an axe to grind.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 11:33:19 PM by Brigidsboy »

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #195 on: November 06, 2017, 08:51:51 AM »
You know, you're not supposed to eat the urinal cakes, right? Just replace them.

Recounting one of your late night conversations with drunken dad?

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« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 11:32:09 PM by Brigidsboy »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #196 on: November 06, 2017, 10:09:02 AM »
Leave for a weekend and everyone is whipping it out and peeing everywhere.


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Offline Rambam

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #197 on: November 06, 2017, 10:56:37 AM »
I love the "eminent scholars" part. Fr. McGuckin, OK.

But Karras? A tenure-wash-out adjunct professor. Looks like she's even tried making extra money by being one of those "twitter spammers." (https://twitter.com/GreekValerie?lang=en).

Teva Regule? Even more rediculous: she's a perma-grad student who calls herself "Cand. Dr. Teva Regule." Always a candidate, never a doctor.

For these two, the word theologian should most certainly be in quotation marks.

Like Teva, I think you might enjoy playing doctor a bit too much. Just keep it away from the kids, Antonious, and you'll be OK. And remember, no means no. Not everyone likes to play doctor with the school janitor.







Also worth noting that most of the advocates for this are not clergy but lay Orthodox "theologians".

Quantify that.  What is the ratio of clerical advocates to lay advocates in this scenario, and how many points do the Patriarch of Alexandria and the Bishops of His Synod count for?  How about Metropolitan Kallistos?  Also, who are you to put "theologians" in quotes when speaking about eminent scholars such as Valarie Karras, Fr. John McGuckin, or Teva Regule?  In what ways would you call their credentialing into question and in what ways are you qualified to make those critiques?

From my admittedly limited knowledge of Orthodoxy

You should have stopped there.

there are actually only 3 saints who were given such a sacred title.

Let's say for the sake of argument that is true.  What do you think it proves?

Finally, just to clarify my earlier post, I do not think the Patriarch of Alexandria is a heretic or liberal schismatic. This was in reference to those who want to imitate various mainline Protestant churches in the ordination of women to the priesthood, which is the clear motivation behind many of those advocating for this in the West.

How do you know?  What are you basing this on?  Prove it.  Otherwise, you're just blowing hot air based on your personal political ideology.

I recognise that in non-Western cultures, there may be a pastoral need for something similar to a deaconess, but this is very different from the type of liturgical role that Western Orthodox "theologians"/"liturgists" are pushing for...

How so?  Elaborate.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 10:54:37 PM by Brigidsboy »

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #198 on: November 06, 2017, 11:11:25 AM »
Thread locked pending moderator review.

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How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).