Author Topic: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess  (Read 4593 times)

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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #135 on: November 03, 2017, 03:14:20 PM »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #136 on: November 03, 2017, 06:06:39 PM »
...

If your Christianity was real Christianity, I'd return to the idol worship of my ancestors.

+1

NOTE TO ALL CRITICS: For your own benefit, please only respond with relevant corrective Scriptural and Patristic references. None of your earlier disingenuous fabrications and ad hominems have been effective, except to repeatedly prove your own ignorance and deficiencies.

Then perhaps you should offer something of substance yourself. As I read it, you've burdened us mostly with bitter emotion, against us or against contemporary mores. And a novel interpretation of Genesis that sets the account of the Fall against the plain report of Scripture regarding deaconesses and other women coworkers of the Apostles. Well, most of us are unlikely to accept such a use of the Scripture against itself, and as I read it you've addressed directly none of the actual material e.g. that posted by Antonious Nicholas and Irene Oleynik. How is it you expect others to respond to your post in a way you cannot respond to theirs?

Thanks for trying, Porter, but this fellow is a disgruntled Irish American ex-Catholic who - according to his posts rants here - first entered Orthodoxy through the Antiochian Church, found that too liberal, and then tried the Copts, whom he now routinely castigates as a - and I quote - "mercenary feminist/legal/psycho-medico industry church".  Check his posting history.  To engage with him would be like punching the tar baby in Br'er Rabbit.  He makes Simkins look like William F. Buckley in terms of composure, self-control, and rationality.  His surreal views on the state of the contemporary Coptic Church alone have taught me to take everything he says with a veritable bucket of salt.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #137 on: November 04, 2017, 01:00:59 AM »
Do you have ESL issues, then?  Because these read like declarative statements.
I take that you're just wondering out loud and not resorting to a base personal aspersion.

Quote from: Antonious Nikolas
You have stated here that the contemporary context in which the argument for the restoration of the order of the deaconess has been made "reeks of modernism" and that this context is common to the conditions under which the argument has been made in both the Roman Church and the Orthodox Church.  No wondering involved.  Based on this:
Different objects of different subjects.  The world lives in a historical feminist context and the argument for the restoration of the order of the deaconess is being made in the Church.  Could one be related to the other or is it just an untimely coincidence?  The Church is known to have been unduly influenced by fads from both inside and outside, from Arius to Nestorius, from Honorius to Barlaam, etc, that resulted in more or less serious crises that had to be resolved.  I do not believe that the enemy of human nature has given up on bringing her down yet.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 01:08:37 AM by Sharbel »
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #138 on: November 04, 2017, 09:35:58 AM »
I take that you're just wondering out loud and not resorting to a base personal aspersion.

I'm asking a legitimate question, because it's clear to me that you're either having trouble expressing yourself or that you're attempting an exercise in oratorical trickery.  I think it's clear now which of the two it is.  You're not "wondering out loud" about whether or not the present zeitgeist is influencing the Orthodox Church in terms of the female diaconate so much as you're using that question as a springboard to argue - without proof - that this is the case.  As below.  You "wonder out loud" and then answer your own question:

The world lives in a historical feminist context and the argument for the restoration of the order of the deaconess is being made in the Church.  Could one be related to the other or is it just an untimely coincidence?  The Church is known to have been unduly influenced by fads from both inside and outside, from Arius to Nestorius, from Honorius to Barlaam, etc, that resulted in more or less serious crises that had to be resolved.  I do not believe that the enemy of human nature has given up on bringing her down yet.

So, according to Sharbel, the move to restore the female diaconate is ultimately inspired by the Wolf of Souls as part of his effort to bring down the Church.  Now, I'd like to see you post some proof, as Mor, Mina, Porter and others here have in defense of their views, not to mention the good folks on the St. Phoebe site as linked to by Irene and me, as opinions based chiefly on your political sensibilities and worldview pertaining to things liberal and conservative in the American political sense aren't good enough, and thus far, other than Liza, that's all those wary or critical of the restoration of the female diaconate (scamandrius, Daniel, etc.) have offered.  I'd like to see some actual arguments raised by those folks, with which one might actually engage, as opposed to more cranky and fearful paranoia given voice Fox News fashion.  Thank you.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 09:40:31 AM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Rambam

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #139 on: November 04, 2017, 10:41:26 AM »
The St. Phoebe Center board includes Teva Regule and Helen Criticos Theodoropoulos. The St. Phoebe Center advisory board includes Valerie Karras.

Regule, Theodoropoulos and Karras also were (are?) also editorial board members for The St. Nina Quarterly. (http://www.stnina.org/). This journal (i.e., the editorial board) published work from Fr. Robret Arida and Maria McDowell.


 




Offline Gorazd

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #140 on: November 04, 2017, 10:51:39 AM »
Evangelos Theodorou, Theological School of the University of Athens
Wow, he's still alive? Born in 1921? Many years!

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #141 on: November 04, 2017, 11:07:50 AM »
The St. Phoebe Center board includes Teva Regule and Helen Criticos Theodoropoulos. The St. Phoebe Center advisory board includes Valerie Karras.

Regule, Theodoropoulos and Karras also were (are?) also editorial board members for The St. Nina Quarterly. (http://www.stnina.org/). This journal (i.e., the editorial board) published work from Fr. Robret Arida and Maria McDowell.

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Offline Rambam

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #142 on: November 04, 2017, 11:39:16 AM »
Here's an article by Maria McDowell, which argues for the ordination of women to the priesthood, republished in St. Nina Quarterly in 2008. (http://www.stnina.org/online-journal/feature-articles/newness-spirit-ordination-men-and-women)

This article was originally published in Word Magazine in 2004. The republication of this article in St. Nina Quarterly could be taken as an endorsement of the article. (Whether or not it's an endorsement, only the editorial board would know. But board should know that it could appear that way.)

Again, half of St. Nina's editorial board (4 members: the three I mentioned earlier plus Demetra Jacquet, who I forgot to include) are currently on the board or advisory board of the St. Phoebe Center. Do they still endorse McDowell's article? If they do, then people are naturally going to suspect that more is at play here than "pastoral concern."







Offline Rambam

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #143 on: November 04, 2017, 12:46:36 PM »
From Wilson, S.H., 2010. Tradition, priesthood, and personhood in the trinitarian theology of Elisabeth Behr-Sigel. Pro Ecclesia, 2: 129-150.

"So far, no one from within has outright petitioned the Orthodox Church to ordain women to the priesthood, though many have suggested the possibility in their scholarship. It is not surprising that Orthodox women are at the front of the debate. Among them are Leonie Liveris, editor of the journal MaryMartha in the 1990s; a number of American Orthodox connected to St. Nina's Quarterly, including Teva Regule, MariaMcdowell, and Valerie Karras; and scholars such as Eva Catafygiotu Topping, Susan Ashbrook Harvey, and Kalliope Bourdara." (p. 130).

Regule and Karras are board members at St. Phoebe's Center.




Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #144 on: November 04, 2017, 01:39:52 PM »
From Wilson, S.H., 2010. Tradition, priesthood, and personhood in the trinitarian theology of Elisabeth Behr-Sigel. Pro Ecclesia, 2: 129-150.

"So far, no one from within has outright petitioned the Orthodox Church to ordain women to the priesthood, though many have suggested the possibility in their scholarship. It is not surprising that Orthodox women are at the front of the debate. Among them are Leonie Liveris, editor of the journal MaryMartha in the 1990s; a number of American Orthodox connected to St. Nina's Quarterly, including Teva Regule, MariaMcdowell, and Valerie Karras; and scholars such as Eva Catafygiotu Topping, Susan Ashbrook Harvey, and Kalliope Bourdara." (p. 130).

Regule and Karras are board members at St. Phoebe's Center.

You had thought they are men?
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #145 on: November 04, 2017, 03:53:48 PM »
I surrender. You won this argument; I'll concede to the fact that I misinterpreted your intention of posting; and I don't intend to give an excuse other than from your first post alone gave the impression of trying to censor by means of ad hominem- which I can clearly see isn't your intention at all.

As previously stated, my intention was never to censor anyone by means of ad hominem, but rather:

a. to indicate how an individual who is just starting to learn about Orthodoxy, such as Daniel, is less than qualified to speak to the issue of whether or not there is a pastoral need for the restoration of the order of the deaconess within the Orthodox Church.

b. to suggest that if an individual in such a position cares to offer an opinion, he should do so respectfully.

If I was harsh in doing so it was because:

a. Daniel was snide, highhanded, and condemnatory in his initial post.

b. No offense, but as Mor has pointed out, this board has been lousy lately with wet-behind-the-ears inquirers scolding actual Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Christians for being everything from ecumenists to heretics, and frankly, I'm getting sick of it.

We've got one kid on here who couldn't even decide if he wanted to be Coptic Orthodox or ROCOR for the longest, but he knew one thing for sure, mainstream EO Christians were ecumenist, new calendar heretics and he was gonna tell 'em so in no uncertain terms, even though he wasn't even a catechumen yet.  People like that need to get verbally knocked on their behinds from time to time.  It's good for them.

And you are obviously more informed on the matter, compared to someone as ignorant as me. I also never once wanted to state my opinion on the matter of deaconesses, I attacked on the mere principle of attacking the individual.

Well, as I said, you were off base.  My advice to folks like Daniel: if you can't take it, don't dish it out.  Don't think you're going to come on here lecturing the Orthodox about how they're caving in to secular feminism and headed for schism when you haven't even finished The Orthodox Way yet because you took a break to play Pokémon Go or watch Fox & Friends.  In the words of the late, great Robin Harris, "I ain't your daddy, and I ain't havin' it".



You will get shut down.

It will seem to come from weakness that I made surrendered, but it was me assuming that I was dealing with someone who was attacking with a basis of emotional feelings rather than a rational thought process I'm not familiar with.

Now that you know better, I hope it will lead you towards embracing Orthodoxy on its own terms.

I'm sorry for my hubris and my false sense of being a "Crusader of Orthodoxy," which I'm not. I am filled with pride, and need your prayers.

Apology accepted.

Nevertheless, I am still quite offended at some of the very immature points thrown at me, such as the juvenile name calling.

Well, like you said, I was just kidding around.  That said, since you were offended, I apologize to you for any quip that got your goat.

And I'm a former Roman Catholic in my beliefs, and I am used to dealing with people who use such techniques of spreading heterodoxy by means of immature and ill informed tactics.

Crushing heterodoxy is what I'm all about.

I deeply respect and agree with LivenotoneviL's purpose, courage, theology, wisdom, intelligence, skill, and blessed humility in response to the evil, uncouth, abusive ignorance and arrogance that has been viciously screamed at her, without any scriptural nor patristic support, in open favor of heterodox ordination of female deacons, and in deceptive favor of eventual heterodox ordination of female, feminist Orthodox priests and bishops.

Such demonic feminist grasps for prohibited spiritual status and office were clearly denied, by God, mankind's creator, when Woman, our feminist prototype, was corrected and sentenced at Genesis 3:16; and our forefather, Adam and his descendants , were corrected and sentenced at Genesis 3:17-19. All relevant O.T. passages confirm these subservient spiritual and social roles for all women. SS Peter and Paul and all relevant Orthodox Christian Patristic Fathers provided consistent Holy Scriptures, Commentaries and Canons to truly guide the Christian Church without contradiction to God's original judgment and sentence for the conduct of all holy proceedings of God's loyal servants. Accordingly, all actual and imagined past  deviations from God's specific judgment of all women's duty of submission to her designated relevant male ruler. Accordingly, any and all earlier ordination of women for ruling of any function of a Christian Church is illegitimate and irregular.

I'm amazed by LivenotoneviL's strict compliance with the Scriptural and Patristic rules for women's meaningful participation in Holy Orthodox Church life, including the following: St. Peter instructs holy wives (submissive women) to be submissive, even to errant husbands (men of the church) so that the misbehaving rulers may be won without a word by the woman's gentle, chaste and reverent behavior. In spite of the despicable abuse that she received. 1 Peter 3:1-6. Here, the "CRUSHING," hypocritical self-appointed "ruler" should be hard put to expect benefit from his aberrant, evil for evil, reviling for reviling prayers. 1 Peter 3:7-12. Including his obvious redefinition of the seemingly speculative EO theology of common, garden variety theosis.

It is sad that the EO and OO churches are now racing to overtake the Catholic Church's dive into apostasy that it appears that LivenotoneviL is seeking to avoid in the historical (now sadly only rarely) orthodox Churches. I'm stunned by the substitution of freudian psycho "medicine" for scriptural and patristic Orthodox gender and family theology and practice in the worldwide Coptic Church since my catechesis and baptism twenty one years ago. The Greek and Catholic Churches were bottom feeding on this cursed swill then, and continue racing to meaninglessness. The latest news is that the U.S. Greek Church is also financially bankrupt. All of their entrenched psychologists and divorce lawyers must not be kicking back as expected.

Were you Irish Catholic, LivenotoneviL? Your straight walk through this demonic dialectic challenge reminds me of the solid spirited, clear sighted women of my long lost Irish roots. If so, you may be interested in the theory that Coptic monks, catechized and taught monastic life to St. Patrick, et. al., circa 420 AD, which was the basis for civilizing the Irish, and the later Irish monks' salvation of Western civilization, after the fall of Rome and Western Europe. See, How the Irish Saved Civilization. Which most of the world's modern Irish have now repaganized and squandered. My feelings of mystical kindred to common faithful Copts energizes me. Through this irrational torture, you have clearly demonstrated the holy female spirit (not aggressive nagging for illegitimate clerical ordination) that St. Paul instructed Titus to urge. "Bid the older women likewise to be reverent in behavior, not to be slanders or slaves to drink; they are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be sensible, chaste, domestic, kind and submissive to their husbands (ruling men), that the word of God may not be discredited." Although weak, heterodox jurisdictions may have ventured into various female ordination apostasies in the past, this doesn't authorize repetition. Very recently, the revolution of Catholic nuns and their feminist clerical and episcopal sympathizers has been closely related to the expensive and scandalous Catholic clerical and youth homosexual and pedophilia epidemic that has also invaded Greek Orthodox clerical, social and monastic groups. Why do all of these innovative modern spiritual revolutions so closely resemble their failed historical predecessors, and even the gross failure Eve's first exercise of leadership equality in God's Garden? Genesis 3:1-24.

NOTE TO ALL CRITICS: For your own benefit, please only respond with relevant corrective Scriptural and Patristic references. None of your earlier disingenuous fabrications and ad hominems have been effective, except to repeatedly prove your own ignorance and deficiencies.

Yeah...I'm a 20 year old guy. I think what was misleading was my satirical use of "fabulous" (which was intentionally supposed to be feminine as a joke - although from your post certainly individuals didn't get that) and my image of the Theotokos in the icon "Salus Populi Romani," said icon which was given to Saint Gregory the Dialogist.

I appreciate it - although I don't think I should be praised - because I think Antonius's argument was overall better; however, I would point out that if he decided to lie and change his original intent in order to justify an argument devolved from a sense of selfishness, he'll - unless he confesses and truly repents - have to face such a sin from the Great and Dreadful Judge on why he tried to change Orthodoxy for his own emotional self-benefit. I also never took a position on the Deaconess, I just have a hatred for the tactics individuals use in order to justify ideologies that do not stem from logic or Spiritual Guidance - but rather only come from their own hard-heartedness; tactics of name-calling / ad-hominem argumentation, straw-man argumentation, and red-herring arguments that are more based on emotion rather than reason.

My case and point would be this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyKpQizBcUA

I've been away from this post because this issue is something I'm more ignorant of, and I wanted to point out these seeming tactics which Antonius used - although he justified himself by his responses, and - at least from what could be gathered - this wasn't his intent, although his first post certainly gave off that intent.

I am part Irish, although I'm more Slovenian than I am Irish. My great grandfather was an Irish immigrant, who was fully Irish - and Irish ethnicity has still remained an integral part of my identity - and while I think certain interpretations of Anglicanism (particularly the Oxford Movement) are actually closer to Orthodoxy than Roman Catholicism, I still have a much greater sympathy and honor to give to the Roman Catholics and how they've had to deal with the English from the Norman Invasion of Ireland onward - although when it comes to the IRB and the Irish Civil War, as well as the Troubles period, there really wasn't a completely clear "good" and "evil" side.

And I've also read Saint Patrick's autobiography, although I would like to learn more about Saint Brigid and the Saints of Lindisfarne.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 04:03:47 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #146 on: November 04, 2017, 04:06:19 PM »


While we're talking about typical academic "social issues," quote on quote, should we also bring up the Orthodoxy of "cultural appropriation" in addition to "secular feminism?"
Or should that be saved for later?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 04:09:58 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #147 on: November 04, 2017, 04:24:39 PM »
I will say that I heard Leprechauns on Lindisfarne were annoying to deal with....

"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #148 on: November 04, 2017, 04:42:18 PM »
I appreciate it - although I don't think I should be praised - because I think Antonius's argument was overall better; however, I would point out that if he decided to lie and change his original intent in order to justify an argument devolved from a sense of selfishness, he'll - unless he confesses and truly repents - have to face such a sin from the Great and Dreadful Judge on why he tried to change Orthodoxy for his own emotional self-benefit.

When did you become the Bible? 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Offline irishpilgrim

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #149 on: November 04, 2017, 05:13:44 PM »
...

If your Christianity was real Christianity, I'd return to the idol worship of my ancestors.

You're on the road with worship of female deacons. Gender Equality Goddess worship of female priestesses and bishopesses should be in your reach. My Christianity is within SS. Peter's and Paul's real Orthodox Christian rules, I hope yours soon will be also.

Qualifications of Deacons
8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 1Tim 3:8-13 (NKJV).



 

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #150 on: November 04, 2017, 05:42:40 PM »
I'm asking a legitimate question, because it's clear to me that you're either having trouble expressing yourself or that you're attempting an exercise in oratorical trickery.  I think it's clear now which of the two it is.  You're not "wondering out loud" about whether or not the present zeitgeist is influencing the Orthodox Church in terms of the female diaconate so much as you're using that question as a springboard to argue - without proof - that this is the case.  As below.  You "wonder out loud" and then answer your own question:
You truly seem to be triggered by your own reading between the lines, which makes it pointless to offer any further comment.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #151 on: November 04, 2017, 07:52:52 PM »
...

If your Christianity was real Christianity, I'd return to the idol worship of my ancestors.

You're on the road with worship of female deacons. Gender Equality Goddess worship of female priestesses and bishopesses should be in your reach. My Christianity is within SS. Peter's and Paul's real Orthodox Christian rules, I hope yours soon will be also.

Qualifications of Deacons
8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 1Tim 3:8-13 (NKJV).

I know you're not confused which office we're discussing, based on your other comments. So is this your attempt to make St. Paul a champion of lesbian monogamous marriage? Lame.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #152 on: November 04, 2017, 09:58:23 PM »
...

If your Christianity was real Christianity, I'd return to the idol worship of my ancestors.

You're on the road with worship of female deacons.

If the female deacon is hot enough, I will walk that road. 

Quote
Gender Equality Goddess worship of female priestesses and bishopesses should be in your reach.

Nope.

Quote
My Christianity is within SS. Peter's and Paul's real Orthodox Christian rules, I hope yours soon will be also.

No, your Christianity has nothing to do with Christ, with Peter and Paul, with any apostle, with the Theotokos, with John the Baptist, with any and all saints, or with any bishop alive today, etc. 

Quote
Qualifications of Deacons
8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 1Tim 3:8-13 (NKJV).

I agree with this 1000%. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #153 on: November 04, 2017, 10:53:34 PM »
You truly seem to be triggered by your own reading between the lines, which makes it pointless to offer any further comment.

Translation from the Sharbel: "Ego compels me to reply to your interrogative, though I really have nothing of substance to offer by way of rebuttal.  P.S. - You're spot on about my politics."

Yeah...I'm a 20 year old...

It shows.

Antonius's argument was overall better; however, I would point out that if he decided to lie and change his original intent in order to justify an argument devolved from a sense of selfishness, he'll - unless he confesses and truly repents - have to face such a sin from the Great and Dreadful Judge on why he tried to change Orthodoxy for his own emotional self-benefit.

First of all, I didn't and wouldn't lie about my original position simply to win an argument on a message board.  Secondly, if I may quote King David, "Let us now fall into the hand of the LORD for His mercies are great, but do not let me fall into the hand of man".  It would be better for you not to speculate on or pontificate about my judgment.  You don't have a heaven or a hell to put me in, and you aren't fit to judge a pie eating contest, let alone the fate of my soul.  Thirdly, I'm not trying to "change Orthodoxy".  If you think I am, please justify the position.  Thank you.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #154 on: November 04, 2017, 11:04:05 PM »
You truly seem to be triggered by your own reading between the lines, which makes it pointless to offer any further comment.

Translation from the Sharbel: "Ego compels me to reply to your interrogative, though I really have nothing of substance to offer by way of rebuttal.  P.S. - You're spot on about my politics."

Yeah...I'm a 20 year old...

It shows.

Antonius's argument was overall better; however, I would point out that if he decided to lie and change his original intent in order to justify an argument devolved from a sense of selfishness, he'll - unless he confesses and truly repents - have to face such a sin from the Great and Dreadful Judge on why he tried to change Orthodoxy for his own emotional self-benefit.

First of all, I didn't and wouldn't lie about my original position simply to win an argument on a message board.  Secondly, if I may quote King David, "Let us now fall into the hand of the LORD for His mercies are great, but do not let me fall into the hand of man".  It would be better for you not to speculate on or pontificate about my judgment.  You don't have a heaven or a hell to put me in, and you aren't fit to judge a pie eating contest, let alone the fate of my soul.  Thirdly, I'm not trying to "change Orthodoxy".  If you think I am, please justify the position.  Thank you.


Did I speculate where your soul is?
I said IF. I don't know your intent and will not know your intent as long as I am living. Only He knows.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 11:05:26 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #155 on: November 04, 2017, 11:08:38 PM »
You truly seem to be triggered by your own reading between the lines, which makes it pointless to offer any further comment.

Translation from the Sharbel: "Ego compels me to reply to your interrogative, though I really have nothing of substance to offer by way of rebuttal.  P.S. - You're spot on about my politics."

Yeah...I'm a 20 year old...

It shows.

Antonius's argument was overall better; however, I would point out that if he decided to lie and change his original intent in order to justify an argument devolved from a sense of selfishness, he'll - unless he confesses and truly repents - have to face such a sin from the Great and Dreadful Judge on why he tried to change Orthodoxy for his own emotional self-benefit.

First of all, I didn't and wouldn't lie about my original position simply to win an argument on a message board.  Secondly, if I may quote King David, "Let us now fall into the hand of the LORD for His mercies are great, but do not let me fall into the hand of man".  It would be better for you not to speculate on or pontificate about my judgment.  You don't have a heaven or a hell to put me in, and you aren't fit to judge a pie eating contest, let alone the fate of my soul.  Thirdly, I'm not trying to "change Orthodoxy".  If you think I am, please justify the position.  Thank you.


Did I speculate where your soul is?
I said IF. I don't know your intent and will not know your intent as long as I am living. Only He knows.

Interesting.  Anything at all can be implied as long as you preface it with "if".  This would make for a great new Private Fora thread.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #156 on: November 04, 2017, 11:15:18 PM »
Hi Rambam.  First of all, let me tip my hat to you.  At last, someone critical of the idea of the restoration of the order of the deaconess - and someone who feels that the intentions of those pushing for the restoration of said order are less than honorable - is actually posting something approaching proof to support their position.  This, I can engage with, and I thank you. 

The St. Phoebe Center board includes Teva Regule and Helen Criticos Theodoropoulos. The St. Phoebe Center advisory board includes Valerie Karras.

Regule, Theodoropoulos and Karras also were (are?) also editorial board members for The St. Nina Quarterly. (http://www.stnina.org/). This journal (i.e., the editorial board) published work from Fr. Robret Arida and Maria McDowell.

Thanks for that observation.  How do you feel that this impugns their integrity or the validity of the positions they have advanced on the St. Phoebe page?  In what way does the fact that this journal has published work from Fr. Robert Arida make it suspect in your view?  Is this because of the article of his regarding homosexuality that was so hotly debated on these boards?  I infer from your post that there is some sort of guilt by association with Arida that is supposed to smear Karras, Regule, and Theodoropoulos - and maybe all associated with St. Phoebe's up to and including Metropolitan Kallistos and Fr. John McGuckin - but I am not sure exactly how.  McDowell I get, because of the article you link to below, but not Arida.  Could you please elaborate further as it pertains to him and how you feel that being associated with a journal that publishes his work is a mark against someone?

Here's an article by Maria McDowell, which argues for the ordination of women to the priesthood, republished in St. Nina Quarterly in 2008. (http://www.stnina.org/online-journal/feature-articles/newness-spirit-ordination-men-and-women)

This article was originally published in Word Magazine in 2004. The republication of this article in St. Nina Quarterly could be taken as an endorsement of the article. (Whether or not it's an endorsement, only the editorial board would know. But board should know that it could appear that way.)

Do you read The Word's publication of the original article as an endorsement by that magazine or by the Antiochian Archdiocese?

I am not sure that it is fair to read St. Nina's publication of the article that way, because per its header, the journal is supposed to be dedicated to "exploring the ministry of women in the Eastern Orthodox Church".  The article - however wrong it may be (and I agree that it is) does have something to do with that topic, and thus, the magazine might very well publish and discuss it without necessarily endorsing it.

Again, half of St. Nina's editorial board (4 members: the three I mentioned earlier plus Demetra Jacquet, who I forgot to include) are currently on the board or advisory board of the St. Phoebe Center. Do they still endorse McDowell's article? If they do, then people are naturally going to suspect that more is at play here than "pastoral concern."

I am not sure that it is fair to surmise that they do, especially when St. Phoebe's declares unequivocally that it is not in favor of violating Orthodox Tradition by attempting to establish a female priesthood.  As here:

Quote
Quote
Q.  Does the St. Phoebe Center promote the ordination of women to the priesthood (i.e. the episcopos or presbytery)?

A. No, ordination of women to those offices is not part of the Orthodox Christian Tradition and the St. Phoebe Center does not promote this.

and here:

Quote
Q. If women are ordained to the diaconate, won’t the next step be to ordain them to the priesthood/presbytery?

A. Ordination to the diaconate is not just a “stepping stone” to the priesthood/presbytery.  The order has its own charism and ministry.  Furthermore, for over a thousand years the Church ordained women to the diaconate and it did not lead to the ordination to the presbytery; therefore within the framework of the Orthodox Church, we should not think that would be the case today.

https://orthodoxdeaconess.org/faqs/


From Wilson, S.H., 2010. Tradition, priesthood, and personhood in the trinitarian theology of Elisabeth Behr-Sigel. Pro Ecclesia, 2: 129-150.

"So far, no one from within has outright petitioned the Orthodox Church to ordain women to the priesthood, though many have suggested the possibility in their scholarship. It is not surprising that Orthodox women are at the front of the debate. Among them are Leonie Liveris, editor of the journal MaryMartha in the 1990s; a number of American Orthodox connected to St. Nina's Quarterly, including Teva Regule, MariaMcdowell, and Valerie Karras; and scholars such as Eva Catafygiotu Topping, Susan Ashbrook Harvey, and Kalliope Bourdara." (p. 130).

Regule and Karras are board members at St. Phoebe's Center.

In light of what I just posted above - to wit, that Karras and Regule, as members of the St. Phoebe Center for the Deaconess have disavowed the idea of a female priesthood - could you kindly provide some concrete proof, some writings from either of them, in which they endorse this idea?  I'm not sure that this footnote, in which someone alleges that they hold to this idea and attempts, without citing proof, to lump them with those who do, is sufficient.  Thank you.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 11:28:05 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #157 on: November 04, 2017, 11:22:39 PM »
You truly seem to be triggered by your own reading between the lines, which makes it pointless to offer any further comment.

Translation from the Sharbel: "Ego compels me to reply to your interrogative, though I really have nothing of substance to offer by way of rebuttal.  P.S. - You're spot on about my politics."

Yeah...I'm a 20 year old...

It shows.

Antonius's argument was overall better; however, I would point out that if he decided to lie and change his original intent in order to justify an argument devolved from a sense of selfishness, he'll - unless he confesses and truly repents - have to face such a sin from the Great and Dreadful Judge on why he tried to change Orthodoxy for his own emotional self-benefit.

First of all, I didn't and wouldn't lie about my original position simply to win an argument on a message board.  Secondly, if I may quote King David, "Let us now fall into the hand of the LORD for His mercies are great, but do not let me fall into the hand of man".  It would be better for you not to speculate on or pontificate about my judgment.  You don't have a heaven or a hell to put me in, and you aren't fit to judge a pie eating contest, let alone the fate of my soul.  Thirdly, I'm not trying to "change Orthodoxy".  If you think I am, please justify the position.  Thank you.


Did I speculate where your soul is?
I said IF. I don't know your intent and will not know your intent as long as I am living. Only He knows.

Interesting.  Anything at all can be implied as long as you preface it with "if".  This would make for a great new Private Fora thread.

Indeed.  In that case, IF LivenotoneviL was not sincere in his protestations that his wish to be "fabulous like Dorothy" was intended as "a joke", then perhaps he is a fan of Judy Garland and rainbows.  And IF he does not repent of his lies and face his demons, he may end up in a place far worse than the Land of the Winkies and he'll never end up a bust in the Hall of Fame.  Who knows his true intent or exactly how fabulous he really is?  The Shadow knows!
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #158 on: November 04, 2017, 11:28:50 PM »
Did I speculate where your soul is?

You know what you were implying with that insipid post.

I said IF. I don't know your intent and will not know your intent as long as I am living. Only He knows.

What makes you think you'll be privy to my inner thoughts when you die?  Do you think all souls are granted omniscience upon death?  Are you so sure that you'll privy to such things wherever you end up after you're judged?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 11:31:40 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #159 on: November 04, 2017, 11:29:51 PM »
You truly seem to be triggered by your own reading between the lines, which makes it pointless to offer any further comment.

Translation from the Sharbel: "Ego compels me to reply to your interrogative, though I really have nothing of substance to offer by way of rebuttal.  P.S. - You're spot on about my politics."

Yeah...I'm a 20 year old...

It shows.

Antonius's argument was overall better; however, I would point out that if he decided to lie and change his original intent in order to justify an argument devolved from a sense of selfishness, he'll - unless he confesses and truly repents - have to face such a sin from the Great and Dreadful Judge on why he tried to change Orthodoxy for his own emotional self-benefit.

First of all, I didn't and wouldn't lie about my original position simply to win an argument on a message board.  Secondly, if I may quote King David, "Let us now fall into the hand of the LORD for His mercies are great, but do not let me fall into the hand of man".  It would be better for you not to speculate on or pontificate about my judgment.  You don't have a heaven or a hell to put me in, and you aren't fit to judge a pie eating contest, let alone the fate of my soul.  Thirdly, I'm not trying to "change Orthodoxy".  If you think I am, please justify the position.  Thank you.


Did I speculate where your soul is?
I said IF. I don't know your intent and will not know your intent as long as I am living. Only He knows.

Interesting.  Anything at all can be implied as long as you preface it with "if".  This would make for a great new Private Fora thread.

Also, you're accusing me of judging him?

What are the implications of

Quote
No, your Christianity has nothing to do with Christ, with Peter and Paul, with any apostle, with the Theotokos, with John the Baptist, with any and all saints, or with any bishop alive today, etc. 

I mean, it seems from this statement that you are implying he has no and cannot have any relationship with Christ or His Saints simply because he believes the intent of the restoration of deaconesses is modernistic and feminist.

Which to me is a very prideful and wrong statement.


Indeed.  In that case, IF LivenotoneviL was not sincere in his protestations that his wish to be "fabulous like Dorothy" was intended as "a joke", then perhaps he is a fan of Judy Garland and rainbows.  And IF he does not repent of his lies and face his demons, he may end up in a place far worse than the Land of the Winkies and he'll never end up a bust in the Hall of Fame.  Who knows his true intent or exactly how fabulous he really is?  The Shadow knows!

I also don't think that this logically follows - does one support the LGBT movement or even homosexual if one is a fan of Judy Garland or if one is effeminate? And may I ask as to what I lied about on this forum?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 11:30:17 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

Keep shining, star!

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #160 on: November 04, 2017, 11:36:59 PM »
does one support the LGBT movement or even homosexual if one is a fan of Judy Garland or if one is effeminate?

I don't know, do you?  Tell us more about your struggles.

And may I ask as to what I lied about on this forum?

I said IF you lied, son, IF.  Or as the Spartans would say, "αν".  Do you think you'd've enjoyed life in Ancient Greece?  I think you might've.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #161 on: November 04, 2017, 11:45:56 PM »
does one support the LGBT movement or even homosexual if one is a fan of Judy Garland or if one is effeminate?

I don't know, do you?  Tell us more about your struggles.

You didn't answer the question of the logical validity of such an argument, number one, and number two - as I've said before, simply calling someone "gay" as an insult is very childlike.

Quote
And may I ask as to what I lied about on this forum?

I said IF you lied, son, IF.  Or as the Spartans would say, "αν".  Do you think you'd've enjoyed life in Ancient Greece?  I think you might've.

For the first part, fair enough. For the second part, I find it ironic that it appears you have nothing else to add. You accuse me of acting like a 20 year old - but I beg you to share with us which a Seminary you went to, because if it taught you that all you have to do is keep calling someone "gay" in order to win an argument, you wasted your money.

You've come across with such immature attacks as a 15 year old who decided to one day read Gregory Palamas.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 11:47:45 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

Keep shining, star!

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #162 on: November 04, 2017, 11:57:33 PM »
You didn't answer the question of the logical validity of such an argument, number one, and number two - as I've said before, simply calling someone "gay" as an insult is very childlike.

When did I call you gay?  I just asked you to tell us more about your struggles.

For the first part, fair enough.

You bet your Cher records it's fair enough, young man!

For the second part, I find it ironic that it appears you have nothing else to add.

Add to what exactly?  You asked if the fact that someone was effeminate or a Judy Garland fan meant that they were gay.  I'm just trying to figure out where you are on your journey as you wrestle with that question.  Why are you getting so touchy about it?

You accuse me of acting like a 20 year old

That was very unfair to 20 year olds.

but I beg you to share with us which a Seminary you went to

Like seriously beg?  On your knees and everything?

because if it taught you that all you have to do is keep calling someone "gay" in order to win an argument, you wasted your money.

You already conceded that I won the real argument several posts ago.  Now we're just trying to figure out what color ascot you should wear to the next St. Patrick's Day Parade.  Which you can totally march in....because your Irish! ;)

You've come across with such immature attacks as a 16 year old who decided to one day read Gregory Palamas.

That's quite an analogy.  Have you debated with a 16 year old who's read St. Gregory Palamas before?  Did he also wipe up the forum with you and compel you to apologize and acknowledge the inferiority of your argument?  Smart kid.  But hey, he's already reading Palamas at sixteen, amirite?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 11:59:31 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Rambam

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #163 on: November 05, 2017, 12:24:09 AM »
Actually, I lean toward supporting a female diaconate. I certainly never said I was against it.

The evidence I offered strictly concerned the advocacy of the St. Phoebe Center and should not, for instance, be used to impugn the motives of those involved in the African context.

A few quick points.

1) Guilt by association? Certainly. St. Nina's aspires (aspired?) to be an academic journal. The editorial board of any academic journal is responsible for the content and quality of the articles -- indeed, they are immensely involved in improving published articles through a review process. These days, I live or die in the academic publishing world, and I have gotten articles accepted by playing up editors' pet theories/methods/etc. You also know about my long-ago days in the newspaper world. Thus, my professional, experienced take: when a journal like this publishes an article, the editorial board is behind it.

2) These individuals (Arida, McDowell, Regule, Karras, et al.) appear to all be part of the same cadre, and it's worth pointing that out. I don't think they'd think it was a smear to mention this ... because ...

3) They proudly associate with each other. For instance, Teva Regula has co-authored a few things with Fr. Arida and McDowell, so the relationship is more substantial that my earlier posts indicated. (See, for example: https://publicorthodoxy.org/tag/teva-regule/). Does this mean Regula is pro-female ordination to the priesthood? No. Just means she's part of the cadre. Again, it's worth knowing. 

4) You know what the St. Phoebe cite could do to help their credibility? Simply include an FAQ line item ... "Q: Members of your board appear to have written articles or published articles that were supportive of female ordination. What are these board members current opinions on these articles and the work of Maria McDowell. A: We repudiate any of our prior work that suggest the need for female ordination ... etc."

And finally, to explicitly narrow the bounds of my contribution to this thread:

WHAT I AM NOT SAYING: The St. Phoebe Center is an anti-Orthodox cabal of feminist innovators pushing for women priests.

WHAT I AM SAYING: The St. Phoebe Center has a credibility problem. Fixing this problem is a) easy and b) completely within their power.



Hi Rambam.  First of all, let me tip my hat to you.  At last, someone critical of the idea of the restoration of the order of the deaconess - and someone who feels that the intentions of those pushing for the restoration of said order are less than honorable - is actually posting something approaching proof to support their position.  This, I can engage with, and I thank you. 

The St. Phoebe Center board includes Teva Regule and Helen Criticos Theodoropoulos. The St. Phoebe Center advisory board includes Valerie Karras.

Regule, Theodoropoulos and Karras also were (are?) also editorial board members for The St. Nina Quarterly. (http://www.stnina.org/). This journal (i.e., the editorial board) published work from Fr. Robret Arida and Maria McDowell.

Thanks for that observation.  How do you feel that this impugns their integrity or the validity of the positions they have advanced on the St. Phoebe page?  In what way does the fact that this journal has published work from Fr. Robert Arida make it suspect in your view?  Is this because of the article of his regarding homosexuality that was so hotly debated on these boards?  I infer from your post that there is some sort of guilt by association with Arida that is supposed to smear Karras, Regule, and Theodoropoulos - and maybe all associated with St. Phoebe's up to and including Metropolitan Kallistos and Fr. John McGuckin - but I am not sure exactly how.  McDowell I get, because of the article you link to below, but not Arida.  Could you please elaborate further as it pertains to him and how you feel that being associated with a journal that publishes his work is a mark against someone?

Here's an article by Maria McDowell, which argues for the ordination of women to the priesthood, republished in St. Nina Quarterly in 2008. (http://www.stnina.org/online-journal/feature-articles/newness-spirit-ordination-men-and-women)

This article was originally published in Word Magazine in 2004. The republication of this article in St. Nina Quarterly could be taken as an endorsement of the article. (Whether or not it's an endorsement, only the editorial board would know. But board should know that it could appear that way.)

Do you read The Word's publication of the original article as an endorsement by that magazine or by the Antiochian Archdiocese?

I am not sure that it is fair to read St. Nina's publication of the article that way, because per its header, the journal is supposed to be dedicated to "exploring the ministry of women in the Eastern Orthodox Church".  The article - however wrong it may be (and I agree that it is) does have something to do with that topic, and thus, the magazine might very well publish and discuss it without necessarily endorsing it.

Again, half of St. Nina's editorial board (4 members: the three I mentioned earlier plus Demetra Jacquet, who I forgot to include) are currently on the board or advisory board of the St. Phoebe Center. Do they still endorse McDowell's article? If they do, then people are naturally going to suspect that more is at play here than "pastoral concern."

I am not sure that it is fair to surmise that they do, especially when St. Phoebe's declares unequivocally that it is not in favor of violating Orthodox Tradition by attempting to establish a female priesthood.  As here:

Quote
Quote
Q.  Does the St. Phoebe Center promote the ordination of women to the priesthood (i.e. the episcopos or presbytery)?

A. No, ordination of women to those offices is not part of the Orthodox Christian Tradition and the St. Phoebe Center does not promote this.

and here:

Quote
Q. If women are ordained to the diaconate, won’t the next step be to ordain them to the priesthood/presbytery?

A. Ordination to the diaconate is not just a “stepping stone” to the priesthood/presbytery.  The order has its own charism and ministry.  Furthermore, for over a thousand years the Church ordained women to the diaconate and it did not lead to the ordination to the presbytery; therefore within the framework of the Orthodox Church, we should not think that would be the case today.

https://orthodoxdeaconess.org/faqs/


From Wilson, S.H., 2010. Tradition, priesthood, and personhood in the trinitarian theology of Elisabeth Behr-Sigel. Pro Ecclesia, 2: 129-150.

"So far, no one from within has outright petitioned the Orthodox Church to ordain women to the priesthood, though many have suggested the possibility in their scholarship. It is not surprising that Orthodox women are at the front of the debate. Among them are Leonie Liveris, editor of the journal MaryMartha in the 1990s; a number of American Orthodox connected to St. Nina's Quarterly, including Teva Regule, MariaMcdowell, and Valerie Karras; and scholars such as Eva Catafygiotu Topping, Susan Ashbrook Harvey, and Kalliope Bourdara." (p. 130).

Regule and Karras are board members at St. Phoebe's Center.

In light of what I just posted above - to wit, that Karras and Regule, as members of the St. Phoebe Center for the Deaconess have disavowed the idea of a female priesthood - could you kindly provide some concrete proof, some writings from either of them, in which they endorse this idea?  I'm not sure that this footnote, in which someone alleges that they hold to this idea and attempts, without citing proof, to lump them with those who do, is sufficient.  Thank you.




« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 12:26:09 AM by Rambam »

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #164 on: November 05, 2017, 12:48:22 AM »
In this book chapter ... http://www.academia.edu/2546935/_Orthodox_Theologies_of_Women_and_Ordained_Ministry_ ... you'll find Valerie Karras, a board member at the St. Phoebe Center, suggesting that because the male-female distinction is a) a consequence of the fall and b) moot after death, there's no good reason that women can't be priests.

Karras' other work is cited in the FAQ at St. Phoebe, which claims that the organization isn't pursuing female ordination to the priesthood.

 


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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #165 on: November 05, 2017, 01:05:10 AM »
Two practical points, all theoretical considerations aside:
- Religious communities with female ordination are perceived as a girl's thing, thus they lose a lot of male attendance. They also are shrinking in general.
- In Orthodox tradition, priests must wear a beard. Women can't grow one.

A male only priesthood is a thing that works in practice. Women who wanted to be ordained need to figure out their priorities. What is more important for them, belonging to the True Church or getting that ordination? (Or do they even believe that Orthodoxy is the True Church?) Maria McDowell has answered that question, and now she is a deacon in The Episcopal Church (which is shrinking, overaged) and is going to be ordained a priest. I wish she had chosen Orthodoxy rather than ordination, but at least I appreciate her honesty. I wish her friends could also make a clear choice - accept Orthodox Tradition as it is, or go to a place that fits your views.

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #166 on: November 05, 2017, 01:07:45 AM »
Actually, I lean toward supporting a female diaconate. I certainly never said I was against it.

Okay, so then I deduct the points I wrongly proffered to that "team" in this thread.  They still have yet to appear on the scoreboard.  ;)

The evidence I offered strictly concerned the advocacy of the St. Phoebe Center and should not, for instance, be used to impugn the motives of those involved in the African context.

Again, thanks for the clarification.

A few quick points.

1) Guilt by association? Certainly. St. Nina's aspires (aspired?) to be an academic journal. The editorial board of any academic journal is responsible for the content and quality of the articles -- indeed, they are immensely involved in improving published articles through a review process. These days, I live or die in the academic publishing world, and I have gotten articles accepted by playing up editors' pet theories/methods/etc. You also know about my long-ago days in the newspaper world. Thus, my professional, experienced take: when a journal like this publishes an article, the editorial board is behind it.

Respectfully, this doesn't answer any of the questions I've asked.  Why would someone's being associated with Fr. Robert Arida be a mark against them for you?  And what are we to make of the fact that The Word published the article in the first place mean?  Are you holding them to the same standards you're holding St. Nina's to?  As far as the new issues you're raising here, I've also been published in academic journals, and I haven't always been onboard with the editor's agenda, and this hasn't always precluding my being published.  I'm not sure that the fact that this particular journal published this particular article necessarily means that everyone on the editorial board is secretly in favor of ordaining women to the priesthood.

2) These individuals (Arida, McDowell, Regule, Karras, et al.) appear to all be part of the same cadre, and it's worth pointing that out. I don't think they'd think it was a smear to mention this ... because ...

Just because they run in the same circles doesn't necessarily mean they're a hive mind, though, and that they all believe the same way as it pertains to a female priesthood.

3) They proudly associate with each other. For instance, Teva Regula has co-authored a few things with Fr. Arida and McDowell, so the relationship is more substantial that my earlier posts indicated. (See, for example: https://publicorthodoxy.org/tag/teva-regule/). Does this mean Regula is pro-female ordination to the priesthood? No. Just means she's part of the cadre. Again, it's worth knowing. 

But what does this mean, exactly?  I associate professionally and collaborate as it concerns areas of agreement with people I don't agree with on lots of other issues.  Our own Simkins has linked to his resume here, and I'd bet the academics he's published with on various subjects don't subscribe to his theories concerning the Red Baron not being an ace.  I realize you've acknowledged that Regule may not be for the ordination of women to the priesthood just because she is "associated" with some who are, but it seems like you're trying to tar her with that brush.

4) You know what the St. Phoebe cite could do to help their credibility? Simply include an FAQ line item ... "Q: Members of your board appear to have written articles or published articles that were supportive of female ordination. What are these board members current opinions on these articles and the work of Maria McDowell. A: We repudiate any of our prior work that suggest the need for female ordination ... etc."

Maybe they haven't done so thus far because this isn't a question that is asked frequently?  Perhaps, if this is true, write to them and suggest this?  As I've already pointed out, you've yet to provide proof that Regule, Theodoropoulos, or Karras has authored an article in favor of the ordination of women to the priesthood.  If it is true, I'd love to take a look at them.  I don't see any here: https://publicorthodoxy.org/tag/teva-regule

And finally, to explicitly narrow the bounds of my contribution to this thread:

WHAT I AM NOT SAYING: The St. Phoebe Center is an anti-Orthodox cabal of feminist innovators pushing for women priests.

WHAT I AM SAYING: The St. Phoebe Center has a credibility problem. Fixing this problem is a) easy and b) completely within their power.

Okay.  Thanks very much for the clarification.  In all seriousness, if you are truly concerned, perhaps reach out to them.  I doubt they're reading here.
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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #167 on: November 05, 2017, 01:36:11 AM »
In this book chapter ... http://www.academia.edu/2546935/_Orthodox_Theologies_of_Women_and_Ordained_Ministry_ ... you'll find Valerie Karras, a board member at the St. Phoebe Center, suggesting that because the male-female distinction is a) a consequence of the fall and b) moot after death, there's no good reason that women can't be priests.

Karras' other work is cited in the FAQ at St. Phoebe, which claims that the organization isn't pursuing female ordination to the priesthood.

Thank you for this!  I'll have to give this a thorough read when time permits (not tonight), but at first glance, I'm not sure that she is actually arguing for the ordination of women to the priesthood along these lines, but rather she might be pointing out that some arguments traditionally used for excluding women from the priesthood might not sync up with Orthodox anthropology.  It doesn't follow, then, that she disqualifies all arguments against ordaining women to the priesthood, or in fact is arguing for female priests.  Also, she points out that the female diaconate was considered "part of the broader 'priesthood'", so I'd like to read it more closely to determine if she is arguing for women's ordination to the priesthood proper, or merely as deaconesses.  If it is the former, then she does indeed seem to contradict herself, because, when asked directly about female ordination to the priesthood in other places, she says this is not something she is pursuing, as here:

Quote

Ryan Hunter: One other question. I personally am not afraid of this happening, I don’t see it as a threat of any kind, but as Sister Dr. Vassa Larin said earlier, the Church does not exist in a vacuum. Keeping that in mind, do you have any fear that people both within and without the Orthodox Church would mistake the restoration of the historic female diaconate as opening the door for advocates of women to the presbyterate [priesthood] and even to the episcopacy? How would you address those concerns?

Valerie Karras: Well obviously people do have that fear, and that’s why you get some really bad theology and a failure to be honest about the historical record from somebody like Father Lawrence Farley, who then admits that his concern is that if we were to restore the female diaconate then a female priesthood will be not far behind. No, I don’t accept that, because there are two major differences here. One is that where we have a long and solid history of the female diaconate, we do not have that with women ordained to either the priesthood or the episcopacy. So it’s a completely different issue on that level because it’s not a question of restoring something that historically existed, it would be a question of changing the eligibility for those two offices in our faith. So I think that’s one major difference.

The other issue is that these are two very different offices [the priesthood and the diaconate]. It really concerns me particularly when clergy don’t seem to understand the difference between the diaconate and the priesthood. Now there’s a relationship between the priesthood and the episcopacy, in fact of course one of the titles for bishop is ἀρχιερεύς, chief priest, head priest. So [in the Liturgy] the priest is acting on behalf of the bishop, that’s what the bishop signs the antimension that the priest has on the altar, so the priest is able to celebrate the Divine Liturgy, the Eucharistic Liturgy, and the other sacraments on behalf of the bishop. The only sacrament that the bishop does that the priest cannot do is the ordination of higher clergy, or of clergy generally. In the case of the deacon, the deacon is kind of a liminal position. Even though the deacon is ranked as one of the three major orders of clergy — we see that from the early Church orders, there’s clearly a distinction in the ordination rite, and certainly that’s made explicit in some of Justinian’s legislation — even though the deacon is ranked with the priest and the bishop as part of the hierosyni or priesthood in the broader sense, one of the major orders of clergy, the diaconate is still kind of a liminal office. As I mentioned before, the priest doing all these sacraments, being able to celebrate the sacraments, the deacon cannot; the deacon cannot be the celebrant, the deacon cannot baptize, the deacon cannot celebrate the Eucharist; he assists in the celebration of the Eucharist but he is not himself the celebrant.

Deacons cannot marry; in the Roman Catholic Church where the theology is that it’s really the two people getting married who marry each other, the deacon can be the one overseeing this because he’s really just the witness, but in our Church we see the priest or bishop as actually the celebrant of the marriage, and therefore it cannot be a deacon doing it. So the deacon is very different from the priest and the bishop because the deacon does not celebrate the sacraments. The word ‘deacon’ comes from διάκονος (diakonos), diakonia, the Greek word that means ‘service’. We see from the New Testament on that their primary roles were to do what we would today call social service, and they also did administrative functions — archdeacons, that sort of thing, they did a lot of the administrative functions for the Church.

The second thing that shows this difference, I think, is, strangely, the funeral rite. A deacon is buried as a layman, it’s the same rite as we use for the laypeople. They do not have the rite that is done for priests.

...

Ryan Hunter: Interesting. So everything that you’re saying is underlining the fact that there is this clearly articulated distinction between the order of the presbyterate, the priesthood, and the diaconate?

Valerie Karras: Right.

Ryan Hunter: So you’re not concerned that there would be some sort of push — “well, women have the diaconate now, so let’s jump to the priesthood”?

Valerie Karras: No, I don’t think it works that way. Don’t take this to mean that I don’t think that women can or should be ordained to the priesthood or the episcopacy; I’m saying that it’s a completely different subject, it is not closely related to the diaconate for the reasons I just said.

https://ryanphunter.wordpress.com/2015/06/29/my-interview-with-dr-valerie-karras/
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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #168 on: November 05, 2017, 01:36:37 AM »
- In Orthodox tradition, priests must wear a beard. Women can't grow one.
Neither can some ethnies we've reached to, or several individuals... This is really not part of the problem. But I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your comment.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 01:37:40 AM by RaphaCam »
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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #169 on: November 05, 2017, 01:38:30 AM »
- In Orthodox tradition, priests must wear a beard. Women can't grow one.

I've known plenty of beardless EO bishops and priests.  And as Raphael has pointed out, some men cannot grow beards, including (virtually) some entire ethnic groups.

I wish her friends could also make a clear choice - accept Orthodox Tradition as it is, or go to a place that fits your views.

Not all of her "friends" - including those interested in a restoration of the female diaconate - are interested in pushing for female ordination to the priesthood.  It is not an "either or" scenario in the case of deaconesses.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 01:41:16 AM by Antonious Nikolas »
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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #171 on: November 05, 2017, 09:06:05 AM »
Nah. This is where we part company.

Just two posts ago, you attributed a position to me for which you had zero textual evidence. So playing around with the meaning of the Karras chapter with you is pointless since you don't play in good faith. If your prejudices guide how you interpret Karras' text -- like they just led you to falsely characterize my own beliefs -- then it's a waste of my time.

I figure I've done my job here: folks Googling St. Phoebe, Karras and Regule might find these posts, see the circumstantial evidence provided, and make their own determination.






In this book chapter ... http://www.academia.edu/2546935/_Orthodox_Theologies_of_Women_and_Ordained_Ministry_ ... you'll find Valerie Karras, a board member at the St. Phoebe Center, suggesting that because the male-female distinction is a) a consequence of the fall and b) moot after death, there's no good reason that women can't be priests.

Karras' other work is cited in the FAQ at St. Phoebe, which claims that the organization isn't pursuing female ordination to the priesthood.

Thank you for this!  I'll have to give this a thorough read when time permits (not tonight), but at first glance, I'm not sure that she is actually arguing for the ordination of women to the priesthood along these lines, but rather she might be pointing out that some arguments traditionally used for excluding women from the priesthood might not sync up with Orthodox anthropology.  It doesn't follow, then, that she disqualifies all arguments against ordaining women to the priesthood, or in fact is arguing for female priests.  Also, she points out that the female diaconate was considered "part of the broader 'priesthood'", so I'd like to read it more closely to determine if she is arguing for women's ordination to the priesthood proper, or merely as deaconesses.  If it is the former, then she does indeed seem to contradict herself, because, when asked directly about female ordination to the priesthood in other places, she says this is not something she is pursuing, as here:

Quote

Ryan Hunter: One other question. I personally am not afraid of this happening, I don’t see it as a threat of any kind, but as Sister Dr. Vassa Larin said earlier, the Church does not exist in a vacuum. Keeping that in mind, do you have any fear that people both within and without the Orthodox Church would mistake the restoration of the historic female diaconate as opening the door for advocates of women to the presbyterate [priesthood] and even to the episcopacy? How would you address those concerns?

Valerie Karras: Well obviously people do have that fear, and that’s why you get some really bad theology and a failure to be honest about the historical record from somebody like Father Lawrence Farley, who then admits that his concern is that if we were to restore the female diaconate then a female priesthood will be not far behind. No, I don’t accept that, because there are two major differences here. One is that where we have a long and solid history of the female diaconate, we do not have that with women ordained to either the priesthood or the episcopacy. So it’s a completely different issue on that level because it’s not a question of restoring something that historically existed, it would be a question of changing the eligibility for those two offices in our faith. So I think that’s one major difference.

The other issue is that these are two very different offices [the priesthood and the diaconate]. It really concerns me particularly when clergy don’t seem to understand the difference between the diaconate and the priesthood. Now there’s a relationship between the priesthood and the episcopacy, in fact of course one of the titles for bishop is ἀρχιερεύς, chief priest, head priest. So [in the Liturgy] the priest is acting on behalf of the bishop, that’s what the bishop signs the antimension that the priest has on the altar, so the priest is able to celebrate the Divine Liturgy, the Eucharistic Liturgy, and the other sacraments on behalf of the bishop. The only sacrament that the bishop does that the priest cannot do is the ordination of higher clergy, or of clergy generally. In the case of the deacon, the deacon is kind of a liminal position. Even though the deacon is ranked as one of the three major orders of clergy — we see that from the early Church orders, there’s clearly a distinction in the ordination rite, and certainly that’s made explicit in some of Justinian’s legislation — even though the deacon is ranked with the priest and the bishop as part of the hierosyni or priesthood in the broader sense, one of the major orders of clergy, the diaconate is still kind of a liminal office. As I mentioned before, the priest doing all these sacraments, being able to celebrate the sacraments, the deacon cannot; the deacon cannot be the celebrant, the deacon cannot baptize, the deacon cannot celebrate the Eucharist; he assists in the celebration of the Eucharist but he is not himself the celebrant.

Deacons cannot marry; in the Roman Catholic Church where the theology is that it’s really the two people getting married who marry each other, the deacon can be the one overseeing this because he’s really just the witness, but in our Church we see the priest or bishop as actually the celebrant of the marriage, and therefore it cannot be a deacon doing it. So the deacon is very different from the priest and the bishop because the deacon does not celebrate the sacraments. The word ‘deacon’ comes from διάκονος (diakonos), diakonia, the Greek word that means ‘service’. We see from the New Testament on that their primary roles were to do what we would today call social service, and they also did administrative functions — archdeacons, that sort of thing, they did a lot of the administrative functions for the Church.

The second thing that shows this difference, I think, is, strangely, the funeral rite. A deacon is buried as a layman, it’s the same rite as we use for the laypeople. They do not have the rite that is done for priests.

...

Ryan Hunter: Interesting. So everything that you’re saying is underlining the fact that there is this clearly articulated distinction between the order of the presbyterate, the priesthood, and the diaconate?

Valerie Karras: Right.

Ryan Hunter: So you’re not concerned that there would be some sort of push — “well, women have the diaconate now, so let’s jump to the priesthood”?

Valerie Karras: No, I don’t think it works that way. Don’t take this to mean that I don’t think that women can or should be ordained to the priesthood or the episcopacy; I’m saying that it’s a completely different subject, it is not closely related to the diaconate for the reasons I just said.

https://ryanphunter.wordpress.com/2015/06/29/my-interview-with-dr-valerie-karras/

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #172 on: November 05, 2017, 10:00:10 AM »
Another Valerie Karras article. Here's the link:

http://cemes.weebly.com/uploads/2/7/8/8/27884917/karras_full_text.pdf

Here's the money quote (very last paragraph):

"... I hope that the issues I have raised in brief here will demonstrate how important it is that, in our discussion of these vital and controversial issues of the reinstitution of the ordained female diaconate and of the possibility of the ordination of women to the priesthood, we not allow sloppy argumentation and theological reasoning to undermine our theology of the holy orders, our liturgical theology, our theological anthropology, and our soteriology. That people feel the need to resort to such distorting and unsound arguments is itself, I believe, proof of the theological weakness of the opposition to the restoration of the ordained female diaconate and even the ordination of women to the priesthood."

Valerie Karras: advisory board member at the St. Phoebe Center.

This "scholarship" is tough to find and not the best quality. Karras failed to obtain tenure at Southern Methodist University and is now adjuncting. In other words, her fellow scholars put zero value in her work. (She's also a 2.5/5 on RateMyProfessors. Lol. Poor scholar, mediocre teacher = adjuncting.)


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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #173 on: November 05, 2017, 10:17:17 AM »
(She's also a 2.5/5 on RateMyProfessors. Lol. Poor scholar, mediocre teacher = adjuncting.)

Based on two (2) reviews from 2005 and 2006. Suuuuure.
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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #174 on: November 05, 2017, 02:46:21 PM »
Here's an article by Maria McDowell, which argues for the ordination of women to the priesthood, republished in St. Nina Quarterly in 2008. (http://www.stnina.org/online-journal/feature-articles/newness-spirit-ordination-men-and-women)

This article was originally published in Word Magazine in 2004. The republication of this article in St. Nina Quarterly could be taken as an endorsement of the article. (Whether or not it's an endorsement, only the editorial board would know. But board should know that it could appear that way.)

Again, half of St. Nina's editorial board (4 members: the three I mentioned earlier plus Demetra Jacquet, who I forgot to include) are currently on the board or advisory board of the St. Phoebe Center. Do they still endorse McDowell's article? If they do, then people are naturally going to suspect that more is at play here than "pastoral concern."

The problem though is that the St. Ninas people had nothing to do with the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria ordaining deaconesses.  Rather, there was a need.  Sure, some groups with agendas will applaud something which appears to be in their favor, but really, what we are seeing here is the implementation of female Deaconesses for use in the mission communities in a role nearly identical to their original primary function in the baptismal liturgy, which is historic, Patristic and well documented.

I just don't understand why you and Sharbel are upset about this.  There is more chance of Martians with triple antennae invading the Earth on the back of giant spacefaring crickets than there is of women priests becoming accepted in either the Eastern or Oriental Orthodox Church.
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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #175 on: November 05, 2017, 03:24:41 PM »
Nah. This is where we part company.

Just two posts ago, you attributed a position to me for which you had zero textual evidence. So playing around with the meaning of the Karras chapter with you is pointless since you don't play in good faith. If your prejudices guide how you interpret Karras' text -- like they just led you to falsely characterize my own beliefs -- then it's a waste of my time.

That's all rather unfair and spiteful of you....so basically, pretty much in character.  I tried to be kind and complimentary and engage you in discussion, and now you're pulling out because I'm not ready accept your interpretation of the Karras article uncritically without perusing it for myself.  As far as "attributing a position to you with zero textual evidence", it was not unreasonable to assume that you were not in favor of the restoration of the female diaconate when you came in guns blazing attempting to discredit many of its chief advocates here as liberals in favor of the female priesthood - not to mention pals of Fr. Robert Arida - and you still haven't explained why that's a bad thing.  Once you said that you were not opposed to the female diaconate, I accepted your word for it, and we moved on and resumed communication.  But now, since I've pressed you for clarification on some things you apparently don't want to clarify, it's very convenient for you to bail based on the idea that I'm too prejudice to look at things objectively.  As far as my "prejudices" informing my interpretation of the Karras article, it's clear for all to see that it's not so much that as my willingness to take her at her own word.  She says she's not in favor of a female priesthood.  Who am I - or you for that matter - to say otherwise?  Especially without solid proof.  I'm not the one who's not playing in good faith here, Rambam, but I do agree that since you're not, further "dialogue" would be a waste of time.

I figure I've done my job here: folks Googling St. Phoebe, Karras and Regule might find these posts, see the circumstantial evidence provided, and make their own determination.

So in other words, you've stepped in, lobbed your mud bombs, and having tarnished the name of Karras and company, you're moving on without bothering to substantiate your accusations when called upon to do so.  Got it.

Another Valerie Karras article. Here's the link:

http://cemes.weebly.com/uploads/2/7/8/8/27884917/karras_full_text.pdf

Here's the money quote (very last paragraph):

"... I hope that the issues I have raised in brief here will demonstrate how important it is that, in our discussion of these vital and controversial issues of the reinstitution of the ordained female diaconate and of the possibility of the ordination of women to the priesthood, we not allow sloppy argumentation and theological reasoning to undermine our theology of the holy orders, our liturgical theology, our theological anthropology, and our soteriology. That people feel the need to resort to such distorting and unsound arguments is itself, I believe, proof of the theological weakness of the opposition to the restoration of the ordained female diaconate and even the ordination of women to the priesthood."

Valerie Karras: advisory board member at the St. Phoebe Center.

Pointing out that a particular theological argument against something is weak doesn't mean that a person is necessarily in favor of that thing.  For example, I'm opposed to CCM in the life of the Coptic Orthodox Church, but I realize that some of the arguments which have been advanced against it are indeed weak.  Acknowledging that doesn't suddenly make me a proponent of CCM.

This "scholarship" is tough to find and not the best quality. Karras failed to obtain tenure at Southern Methodist University and is now adjuncting. In other words, her fellow scholars put zero value in her work. (She's also a 2.5/5 on RateMyProfessors. Lol. Poor scholar, mediocre teacher = adjuncting.)

You're speaking from ignorance here.  Do you realize how many brilliant academics and recognized scholars are adjuncting for any number of reasons?  Do you consider yourself a scholar?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 03:26:38 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Rambam

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #176 on: November 05, 2017, 03:43:16 PM »
No. 1: She doesn't say that the theological arguments against a priesthood are week. She says the theology is weak. It's unambiguous.

No. 2: Yep. I'm on faculty at a university you've heard of (a top-10 public), and my particular college is among the best in the country (top 5 among AAU schools). I've published in several journals rated as "A" in my field. At my RateMyProfessor page, there are 127 reviews with an average rating of 4.3, all within the past three years. The students have also kindly rated me as hot.

I know whatof I speak, and adjuncting is for folks who aren't taken seriously in their field. If her colleagues don't take her seriously enough to give her a tenure track job, I hope the Orthodox hierarchy don't take her or her pals seriously enough to let her futz with liturgics. If we're going to have deaconesses -- and perhaps we should -- then let's do it by the book and above suspicion.

In the meantime, the St. Phoebe Center should revise their advisory board if they want mainstream credibility. Karras is a weak sister.

 


Offline Rambam

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #177 on: November 05, 2017, 03:45:30 PM »
Actually, on my point No. 1 below, Karras says both. She says the theological arguments against a female priesthood are weak because the theology against a female priesthood is weak. It's still unambiguous.


No. 1: She doesn't say that the theological arguments against a priesthood are week. She says the theology is weak. It's unambiguous.

No. 2: Yep. I'm on faculty at a university you've heard of (a top-10 public), and my particular college is among the best in the country (top 5 among AAU schools). I've published in several journals rated as "A" in my field. At my RateMyProfessor page, there are 127 reviews with an average rating of 4.3, all within the past three years. The students have also kindly rated me as hot.

I know whatof I speak, and adjuncting is for folks who aren't taken seriously in their field. If her colleagues don't take her seriously enough to give her a tenure track job, I hope the Orthodox hierarchy don't take her or her pals seriously enough to let her futz with liturgics. If we're going to have deaconesses -- and perhaps we should -- then let's do it by the book and above suspicion.

In the meantime, the St. Phoebe Center should revise their advisory board if they want mainstream credibility. Karras is a weak sister.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #178 on: November 05, 2017, 03:52:57 PM »
You didn't answer the question of the logical validity of such an argument, number one, and number two - as I've said before, simply calling someone "gay" as an insult is very childlike.

When did I call you gay?  I just asked you to tell us more about your struggles.

What other conclusion could possibly be drawn from your rude comment? You just wanted to start an objective conversation about my own sins in this random thread, disconnected from your previous comments accusing me of "liking rainbow flags," "having other concerns if I call myself fabulous," or even "You bet your Cher records?"

Give me a break.


For the first part, fair enough.

You bet your Cher records it's fair enough, young man!

I don't like Cher as an artist nor do I agree with any of her views. Are you gonna argue that you have no implications behind such a random comment?

For the second part, I find it ironic that it appears you have nothing else to add.

Add to what exactly?  You asked if the fact that someone was effeminate or a Judy Garland fan meant that they were gay.  I'm just trying to figure out where you are on your journey as you wrestle with that question.  Why are you getting so touchy about it?

I'm just offended by your juvenile behavior. Will you proceed to call me other South Park-esque insults?

Would Christ go up to someone and say "What are you, in the closet or something?"

If you think that your behavior has been at all mature or Christian, then you must live in a distorted world.
You accuse me of acting like a 20 year old

That was very unfair to 20 year olds.

Yeah...I'm a 20 year old...

It shows.

but I beg you to share with us which a Seminary you went to

Like seriously beg?  On your knees and everything?

If you want.
Is this seriously a critique of my argument? Nitpicking the word usage which doesn't change the substance of the argument whatsoever?


because if it taught you that all you have to do is keep calling someone "gay" in order to win an argument, you wasted your money.

You already conceded that I won the real argument several posts ago.  Now we're just trying to figure out what color ascot you should wear to the next St. Patrick's Day Parade.  Which you can totally march in....because your Irish! ;)

The argument which proceeded in the following way:
"Hey, your intention is stupid."
"That's not my intention."
"It certainly appears that way."
"That's not my intention."
"If you insist - sorry."

Yes, you won the quote on quote "real argument." An argument which only the wisest of Canon Lawyers could of won! (and knowing your habit of taking my sarcasm literally, I will point out the previous sentence was sarcastic - which is the point of the sentence).

However, your immaturity and subsequent responses you have not won, nor have the attacks you have given me in your subsequent responses.

You've come across with such immature attacks as a 16 year old who decided to one day read Gregory Palamas.

That's quite an analogy.  Have you debated with a 16 year old who's read St. Gregory Palamas before?  Did he also wipe up the forum with you and compel you to apologize and acknowledge the inferiority of your argument?  Smart kid.  But hey, he's already reading Palamas at sixteen, amirite?

Yeah...I'm a 20 year old...

It shows.


I also would point out don't even bother giving the counter-argument "What, you can't take a joke?"

Well, not after you find it necessary to repeat the joke three times - and by no means is that a justification for your lack of legitimate argumentation.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 03:56:16 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Orthodox Liturgists Issue a Statement of Support for the Revival of Deaconess
« Reply #179 on: November 05, 2017, 04:43:42 PM »
What other conclusion could possibly be drawn from your rude comment?

Wow.  You seem paranoid.  You come on here ranting and raving about your personal issues, a guy engages with you and expresses concern, and you get all defensive.  Take it down a notch, pal.

You just wanted to start an objective conversation about my own sins in this random thread, disconnected from your previous comments accusing me of "liking rainbow flags," "having other concerns if I call myself fabulous," or even "You bet your Cher records?"

I didn't start the conversation.  You did.  You wondered aloud if the fact that someone was effeminate or a Judy Garland fan meant that they were gay.  In the interest of being polite, I asked where you are on your journey as you wrestle with that question.  Have you reached any conclusions yet?

Give me a break.

And now you're citing Nell Carter?  The plot thickens.

I don't like Cher as an artist nor do I agree with any of her views.

Sonny Bono fan?

Are you gonna argue that you have no implications behind such a random comment?

What am I supposed to be implying here?  I don't get it.

I'm just offended by your juvenile behavior. Will you proceed to call me other South Park-esque insults?

I don't like South Park as a show, nor do I agree with Trey Parker and Matt Stone's political views.  And Juvenile was one of the worst MCs of all time.  What are you implying here?!?!?  And don't try to tell me this is all random or innocent, because I'm not buying it, bucko!

Would Christ go up to someone and say "What are you, in the closet or something?"

Why would you ask that?  Closets - so far as I know - are for clothes.  I don't see what you're driving at here. 

If you think that your behavior has been at all mature or Christian, then you must live in a distorted world.

You may as well be speaking to yourself here.  Do you think your behavior on these boards has been Christlike?  Are you in a position to cast stones at anyone?

If you want.



Is this seriously a critique of my argument? Nitpicking the word usage which doesn't change the substance of the argument whatsoever?

I don't know what you're on about.  Who is nitpicking anything?  Who said I was trying to critique your "argument"?  I thought we were done arguing.  I thought we were just talking about our tastes in music and some of the personal issues you introduced to the conversation a few posts ago.

The argument which proceeded in the following way:
"Hey, your intention is stupid."
"That's not my intention."
"It certainly appears that way."
"That's not my intention."
"If you insist - sorry."

No, not the argument you played out in your head.  The real argument we actually had on this forum.  The one everyone can actually see, where you said:

It will seem to come from weakness that I made surrendered, but it was me assuming that I was dealing with someone who was attacking with a basis of emotional feelings rather than a rational thought process I'm not familiar with.

and

Antonius's argument was overall better

Yeah, that one.

Yes, you won the quote on quote "real argument."

Agreed.

An argument which only the wisest of Canon Lawyers could of won! (and knowing your habit of taking my sarcasm literally, I will point out the previous sentence was sarcastic - which is the point of the sentence).

Are you just finding our about canon lawyers and St. Gregory Palamas and stuff like that?  You like to do the name drop thing a lot, like you think it's impressive coming from a 20 year old or something, and it comes off as a little forced.  Not a criticism though, just an observation.  I didn't want you to misunderstand, given your history of taking my observations as criticisms.  You know.

However, your immaturity and subsequent responses you have not won, nor have the attacks you have given me in your subsequent responses.

Because I'm not attacking you, dude.  I thought we were just rapping.  Until that South Park crack though.  I took that personally and demand a retraction.  South Park sucks, big time.

I also would point out don't even bother giving the counter-argument "What, you can't take a joke?"

Was that you attempting to anticipate my argument? lol  Cute.

Well, not after you find it necessary to repeat the joke three times - and by no means is that a justification for your lack of legitimate argumentation.

Who's trying to argue, man?  Honestly, I just don't see where you're coming from sometimes.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.