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Offline Alpha60

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The Tablitho and the Antimension
« on: July 22, 2017, 07:25:58 PM »
Somewhere, Mor and I were having an interesting discussion on why the Tablitho is required kept on our Syriac Orthodox altars during the liturgy even if the Altar itself is consecrated.

I cannot now find that thread.

However, in his last post, Mor mentioned that the antimensia are not automatically always replaced by a new bishop when he comes to power, but that rather that bishop could allow antimensia introduced by his predeccessors to remain  in service.

Mor, if I read him correctly, argued this as a point of differentiation between the Antimensia, which are usually replaced by bishops, and the tablithoyo, which are not, as evidence that the Tablitho, unlike the Antimension, does not serve primarily as a license from the bishop to the priest or parish to serve the Divine Liturgy.   

However, this doesn't make any sense to me, because, if anything, if antimensia can be retained between episcopates, this is a further evidence of similiarity between them and the tablitho.  Perhaps the reason why tablithoyo are not normally replaced is because they are made from sturdy wood, whereas the cloth of the antimension might tear, become frayed, or rip open, potentially risking the loss of the sacred relic sewn inside.

~

I did however come up with an alternate explanation for why we Syriac Orthodox require the tablitho to remain on the consecrated altar during the liturgy, even though its presence is (like that of the antimension), strictly speaking, redundant.

By keeping the tablitho on the altar during the regular services of communion, we ensure that it, and the relics contained therein, are united Eucharistically with the liturgical life of the church, with the consecrated altar on which the consecrated tablitho is placed, and the saints whose relics are contained in both.

Thus, when the Tablitho is removed from the altar on which it is normally kept to allow for the service of the Holy Qurbono in extremis, whether at the bedside of a dying parishioner, or in the temporary space being used by a tiny mission parish without a consecrated altar or tablitho if its own, it has the effect of connecting those communicants Eucharistically with those who have received communion in the Parish, so instead of having a tablitho set aside, collecting dust, awaiting some emegency where it might be used to facilitate communion for the ill, or for use at a missionary parish, the tablitho is a part of every liturgy, and everyone who receives communion consecrated by it is therefore connected on a much more intimate level.

Also, keeping the tablitho on the altar during the liturgy means it will likely remain on the altar at all times when not in use independently, and this reduces the risk of it, God forbid, being lost or stolen.

There is one snag of course, and that is that most, if not all of this argument, could be equally applicable to the Byzantine antimension.  So i remain convinced, for the moment, absent some definitive dogmatic answer from our Syriac fathers or hierarchy, that the liturgical function of the tablitho and the antimension is entirely identical, and this is of some benefit I think in terms of ecumenical rapprochement with the EOs (what do Armenians use, by the way?).

The Assyrian Church of the East also uses a tablitho, although they do not call it a tablitha, but something else; if memory serves they also require it to be on the altar during their Qurbana, or Raza, as they call it, and it can also be used in lieu of the altar, like a tablitho or antimension, if the Assyrian altar becomes deconsecrated (which Assyrian altars are wont to do; for example, Assyrian priests were customarily expected to wear sandals while celebrating the Raza, and if one fell off, causing the bare foot of the Assyrian priest to touch the floor of the altar, or if the priest made one of any number of liturgical acccidents, like pouring oil instead of wine into the chalice, this would cause the altar to be deconsecrated and require the priest send for a bishop, however, the Assyrian tablitha would not be considered desecrated by such a mishap).
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2017, 03:46:47 PM »
There's not enough coffee...

Somewhere, Mor and I were having an interesting discussion on why the Tablitho is required kept on our Syriac Orthodox altars during the liturgy even if the Altar itself is consecrated.

I cannot now find that thread.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71614.msg1462878.html#msg1462878

Quote
However, in his last post, Mor mentioned that the antimensia are not automatically always replaced by a new bishop when he comes to power, but that rather that bishop could allow antimensia introduced by his predeccessors to remain  in service.

Correct.

Quote
Mor, if I read him correctly, argued this as a point of differentiation between the Antimensia, which are usually replaced by bishops, and the tablithoyo, which are not, as evidence that the Tablitho, unlike the Antimension, does not serve primarily as a license from the bishop to the priest or parish to serve the Divine Liturgy.   

Correct.

Quote
However, this doesn't make any sense to me, because, if anything, if antimensia can be retained between episcopates, this is a further evidence of similiarity between them and the tablitho.  Perhaps the reason why tablithoyo are not normally replaced is because they are made from sturdy wood, whereas the cloth of the antimension might tear, become frayed, or rip open, potentially risking the loss of the sacred relic sewn inside.

They are similar in terms of serving as a portable altar.  I never said otherwise.  The distinction I was making was in terms of their function as "permission" to celebrate the Liturgy.  The antimension has such a function among the EO.  In my experience, the tablitho doesn't serve such a function.

A tablitho is certainly more durable than an antimension, but that fact only has relevance if both are replaced only due to damage or wear and tear.  This, however, is not the case.  A perfectly good antimension can be recalled and replaced with another perfectly good antimension when a new bishop takes control of a diocese.

Quote
I did however come up with an alternate explanation for why we Syriac Orthodox require the tablitho to remain on the consecrated altar during the liturgy, even though its presence is (like that of the antimension), strictly speaking, redundant.

By keeping the tablitho on the altar during the regular services of communion, we ensure that it, and the relics contained therein, are united Eucharistically with the liturgical life of the church, with the consecrated altar on which the consecrated tablitho is placed, and the saints whose relics are contained in both.

The tablitho contains no relics.  Altars do not normally contain relics as part of their consecration, although relics may be preserved within a chamber under the altar if there is no other place for them.  Most altars do not contain relics. 

Quote
Thus, when the Tablitho is removed from the altar on which it is normally kept to allow for the service of the Holy Qurbono in extremis, whether at the bedside of a dying parishioner, or in the temporary space being used by a tiny mission parish without a consecrated altar or tablitho if its own, it has the effect of connecting those communicants Eucharistically with those who have received communion in the Parish, so instead of having a tablitho set aside, collecting dust, awaiting some emegency where it might be used to facilitate communion for the ill, or for use at a missionary parish, the tablitho is a part of every liturgy, and everyone who receives communion consecrated by it is therefore connected on a much more intimate level.

As if Holy Communion were not enough of an intimate connection between believers...

Do you know how a tablitho is stored when not in use?  It doesn't "collect dust". 

Quote
There is one snag of course, and that is that most, if not all of this argument, could be equally applicable to the Byzantine antimension.  So i remain convinced, for the moment, absent some definitive dogmatic answer from our Syriac fathers or hierarchy, that the liturgical function of the tablitho and the antimension is entirely identical, and this is of some benefit I think in terms of ecumenical rapprochement with the EOs (what do Armenians use, by the way?).

The liturgical function of both is the same.  My disagreement with you is over whether they have the same ecclesiological function.  They don't. 

You seem particularly invested in identifying the tablitho with the antimension.  I'm not sure why.  The schism isn't going to heal itself once everyone buys into your theory, so its ecumenical value is doubtful. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2017, 08:39:19 PM »
There's not enough coffee...

Somewhere, Mor and I were having an interesting discussion on why the Tablitho is required kept on our Syriac Orthodox altars during the liturgy even if the Altar itself is consecrated.

I cannot now find that thread.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71614.msg1462878.html#msg1462878

Quote
However, in his last post, Mor mentioned that the antimensia are not automatically always replaced by a new bishop when he comes to power, but that rather that bishop could allow antimensia introduced by his predeccessors to remain  in service.

Correct.

Quote
Mor, if I read him correctly, argued this as a point of differentiation between the Antimensia, which are usually replaced by bishops, and the tablithoyo, which are not, as evidence that the Tablitho, unlike the Antimension, does not serve primarily as a license from the bishop to the priest or parish to serve the Divine Liturgy.   

Correct.

Quote
However, this doesn't make any sense to me, because, if anything, if antimensia can be retained between episcopates, this is a further evidence of similiarity between them and the tablitho.  Perhaps the reason why tablithoyo are not normally replaced is because they are made from sturdy wood, whereas the cloth of the antimension might tear, become frayed, or rip open, potentially risking the loss of the sacred relic sewn inside.

They are similar in terms of serving as a portable altar.  I never said otherwise.  The distinction I was making was in terms of their function as "permission" to celebrate the Liturgy.  The antimension has such a function among the EO.  In my experience, the tablitho doesn't serve such a function.

A tablitho is certainly more durable than an antimension, but that fact only has relevance if both are replaced only due to damage or wear and tear.  This, however, is not the case.  A perfectly good antimension can be recalled and replaced with another perfectly good antimension when a new bishop takes control of a diocese.


I did get that part.  I'd be interested to know how frequently new bishops replace the antimensia in their diocese.

Quote

Quote
I did however come up with an alternate explanation for why we Syriac Orthodox require the tablitho to remain on the consecrated altar during the liturgy, even though its presence is (like that of the antimension), strictly speaking, redundant.

By keeping the tablitho on the altar during the regular services of communion, we ensure that it, and the relics contained therein, are united Eucharistically with the liturgical life of the church, with the consecrated altar on which the consecrated tablitho is placed, and the saints whose relics are contained in both.

The tablitho contains no relics.  Altars do not normally contain relics as part of their consecration, although relics may be preserved within a chamber under the altar if there is no other place for them.  Most altars do not contain relics. 

Quote
Thus, when the Tablitho is removed from the altar on which it is normally kept to allow for the service of the Holy Qurbono in extremis, whether at the bedside of a dying parishioner, or in the temporary space being used by a tiny mission parish without a consecrated altar or tablitho if its own, it has the effect of connecting those communicants Eucharistically with those who have received communion in the Parish, so instead of having a tablitho set aside, collecting dust, awaiting some emegency where it might be used to facilitate communion for the ill, or for use at a missionary parish, the tablitho is a part of every liturgy, and everyone who receives communion consecrated by it is therefore connected on a much more intimate level.

As if Holy Communion were not enough of an intimate connection between believers...

Do you know how a tablitho is stored when not in use?  It doesn't "collect dust". 

Quote
There is one snag of course, and that is that most, if not all of this argument, could be equally applicable to the Byzantine antimension.  So i remain convinced, for the moment, absent some definitive dogmatic answer from our Syriac fathers or hierarchy, that the liturgical function of the tablitho and the antimension is entirely identical, and this is of some benefit I think in terms of ecumenical rapprochement with the EOs (what do Armenians use, by the way?).

The liturgical function of both is the same.  My disagreement with you is over whether they have the same ecclesiological function.  They don't. 

You seem particularly invested in identifying the tablitho with the antimension.  I'm not sure why.  The schism isn't going to heal itself once everyone buys into your theory, so its ecumenical value is doubtful.

Would that the schism end once we resolved equivalent functions to liturgical furnishings...  /sigh

Where I am coming from is simply that an antimension-like function or some kind of liturgical-inclusive function are the only reasons I can think of for requiring one to be present on a consecrated altar during the Qurbono, which you had expressed was something the reason for which escaped you.    By the way, I was unaware our altars were generally devoid of relics; I had assumed the oft-cited decision of the Greco-Roman church to require relics in every altar following the persecutions of the third century (and thus, in the antimensia as well) was accepted by us as well, so that's quite an interesting distinction to point out.

So what do you think is the reason?  Have you made any progress in finding out why our tradition requires the tablitho to be kept on the altar during the mysteries even though its presence is apparently superfluous?

The inscriptions on the tablitho, and the fact that they can be optionally replaced by a bishop, but usually aren't, just as antimensia can be optionally not replaced by a new bishop, all seem to point to a similiarity of function, even if that function is not identical and even if our reasons for retaining the tablitho on a consecrated altar during the liturgy are entirely different from the reasons of the Byzantines.

I would hate to think that due to the depredations our church has suffered, we had forgotten why we did something of potentially great signifigance during the liturgy.  But if that should actually prove to be the case, is an attempt to interpret OO liturgical features through analogical comparison to apparent EO equivalent features really all that undesirable?   The EO have in recent years done such a good job explaining the theological justification behind every minute detail of, for example, their prothesis (there are other parts of the EO liturgy which remain less well explained, for example, the exact nature, function and status of the wine used in the Presanctified).  It would be a pity if we can't explain our liturgics as well, at a similiar resolution of detail.
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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2017, 09:00:44 PM »
By the way Mor, would that I had the power to furnish you with all the coffee of Ethiopia and of Turkey (the unsurpassed, freshly made coffee at St. Ephraim's Cathedral in Burbank, made by the hands of the pious and genteel husband of the sister of the owner of a publisher of books we have often discussed, contributed in no small measure to my deliverance from Protestant heresy and into the folds of Holy Orthodoxy).

Also, whatever you determine is the correct answer on this issue, I will in the end accede to, probably, on the basis of the theologoumemnon of Mor Ephremic Infallibility.  But before ruling, my noble and erudite Lord Ephraim, 14th apostle and Judge of the Interwebs, I do pray that that you might vouchsafe to further scrutinize the hypothetical points I have made and attempt to find, for our mutual benefit, the actual reason why the Tablitho remains on our altars during the Qurbono Qadisho.   Because, alas, the Shorter Catechism the SOC-WUS, does not even come close to answering such an obscure question.
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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2017, 12:35:48 PM »
By the way, I was unaware our altars were generally devoid of relics; I had assumed the oft-cited decision of the Greco-Roman church to require relics in every altar following the persecutions of the third century (and thus, in the antimensia as well) was accepted by us as well, so that's quite an interesting distinction to point out.

AFAIK, requiring relics in altars is a Western (i.e., RC, EO) tradition.  I'm not aware of any OO traditions that require this. 

Quote
So what do you think is the reason?  Have you made any progress in finding out why our tradition requires the tablitho to be kept on the altar during the mysteries even though its presence is apparently superfluous?

No.  To be honest, if there ever was a reason, I'm not sure it was preserved.  Whenever I ask, the answer is "That's just how we do it". 

Quote
The inscriptions on the tablitho, and the fact that they can be optionally replaced by a bishop, but usually aren't, just as antimensia can be optionally not replaced by a new bishop, all seem to point to a similiarity of function, even if that function is not identical and even if our reasons for retaining the tablitho on a consecrated altar during the liturgy are entirely different from the reasons of the Byzantines.

1.  The writing on a tablitho indicates when and by whom it was consecrated.  The writing on an antimension may indicate when it was consecrated (I'm not sure of that detail), but most likely by whom it was consecrated.  The main difference is that the antimension is consecrated/signed by the ruling bishop.  A tablitho is signed by the consecrating bishop, who may or may not be the ruling bishop.  That's an important distinction, and it's not right to ignore it. 

2.  "The fact that they (i.e., tablyotho) can be optionally replaced by a bishop" is true in the sense that "bishops can optionally go bungee-jumping while on vacation" is true.  It can be done, but typically isn't.     

Quote
I would hate to think that due to the depredations our church has suffered, we had forgotten why we did something of potentially great signifigance during the liturgy.

Well, hate. 

Quote
But if that should actually prove to be the case, is an attempt to interpret OO liturgical features through analogical comparison to apparent EO equivalent features really all that undesirable?   The EO have in recent years done such a good job explaining the theological justification behind every minute detail of, for example, their prothesis (there are other parts of the EO liturgy which remain less well explained, for example, the exact nature, function and status of the wine used in the Presanctified).  It would be a pity if we can't explain our liturgics as well, at a similiar resolution of detail.

It's not undesirable to compare OO liturgical features with EO features.  What is undesirable is to force the facts to fit predetermined theories. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2017, 12:53:12 PM »
Point 1 is signifigant, and would seem to rule out the Tablitho as a "liturgical license plate."

By the way, perhaps the reason for EO and RC churches requiring relics in their altars is that this practice, according to tradition, began I believe in the "Little Peace of the Church" just before the Diocletian Persecution, by which time there were already so many martyrs, and since the Roman Imperial church had from time immemorial served the liturgy in the "martyries," the graveyards where the tombs of Sts. Peter, Paul and other martyrs were to be found, it made sense to commemorate in perpetuity the blood shed for Christ by the Roman Empire by requiring the relics of martyrs to be present in the altars.   This would have been further bolstered by the Diocletian persecution.

Outside the Roman Empire, the Church did not experience such bloodshed, and would not, until the rise of Islam, and the Muslims tend to desecrate our altars routinely anyway, so it is quite logical that the Oriental churches, being chiefly those outside of Roman Imperial influence, would not have that custom.

So here's an off the wall idea: perhaps the tablitho represented the sanctum sanctorum of the tabernacle; this would relate to the Ethiopian use of a miniature ark on their altars; so the consecrated altar represents the outer temple, but the tablitho, when placed on a consecrated altar, becomes the Holy of Holies; when used elsewhere, it does not require a consecrated altar to be placed upon, because of the descent of the Holy Spirit, divine providence, and so forth.   In other words, the Tablitho is the actual altar on which the Eucharistic sacrifice takes place; the consecrated altar on which the tablitho is placed is a sanctuary for the reception of the tablitho as opposed to a full, complete sacrificial altar in its own capacity. 
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2017, 12:58:26 PM »
By the way, I was unaware our altars were generally devoid of relics; I had assumed the oft-cited decision of the Greco-Roman church to require relics in every altar following the persecutions of the third century (and thus, in the antimensia as well) was accepted by us as well, so that's quite an interesting distinction to point out.

AFAIK, requiring relics in altars is a Western (i.e., RC, EO) tradition.  I'm not aware of any OO traditions that require this. 

Quote
So what do you think is the reason?  Have you made any progress in finding out why our tradition requires the tablitho to be kept on the altar during the mysteries even though its presence is apparently superfluous?

No.  To be honest, if there ever was a reason, I'm not sure it was preserved.  Whenever I ask, the answer is "That's just how we do it". 

Quote
The inscriptions on the tablitho, and the fact that they can be optionally replaced by a bishop, but usually aren't, just as antimensia can be optionally not replaced by a new bishop, all seem to point to a similiarity of function, even if that function is not identical and even if our reasons for retaining the tablitho on a consecrated altar during the liturgy are entirely different from the reasons of the Byzantines.

1.  The writing on a tablitho indicates when and by whom it was consecrated.  The writing on an antimension may indicate when it was consecrated (I'm not sure of that detail), but most likely by whom it was consecrated.  The main difference is that the antimension is consecrated/signed by the ruling bishop.  A tablitho is signed by the consecrating bishop, who may or may not be the ruling bishop.  That's an important distinction, and it's not right to ignore it. 

2.  "The fact that they (i.e., tablyotho) can be optionally replaced by a bishop" is true in the sense that "bishops can optionally go bungee-jumping while on vacation" is true.  It can be done, but typically isn't.     

Quote
I would hate to think that due to the depredations our church has suffered, we had forgotten why we did something of potentially great signifigance during the liturgy.

Well, hate. 

Quote
But if that should actually prove to be the case, is an attempt to interpret OO liturgical features through analogical comparison to apparent EO equivalent features really all that undesirable?   The EO have in recent years done such a good job explaining the theological justification behind every minute detail of, for example, their prothesis (there are other parts of the EO liturgy which remain less well explained, for example, the exact nature, function and status of the wine used in the Presanctified).  It would be a pity if we can't explain our liturgics as well, at a similiar resolution of detail.

It's not undesirable to compare OO liturgical features with EO features.  What is undesirable is to force the facts to fit predetermined theories.

I agree entirely by the way on your last sentence; I thought the facts pointed in the direction of tablitho as antimension until you pointed out the vital distinction between diocesan and consecrating bishop.  I still don't think we can completely rule out the idea of the tablitho as antimension, but the evidence for it serving as an antimension seems as of now much less compelling.

I would be even more inclined to reject my original hypothesis if a tablitho consecrated by a bishop subsequently deposed for schism and heresy remains liturgically serviceable.   Is that the case? 
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2017, 12:58:44 PM »
Point 1 is signifigant, and would seem to rule out the Tablitho as a "liturgical license plate."

By the way, perhaps the reason for EO and RC churches requiring relics in their altars is that this practice, according to tradition, began I believe in the "Little Peace of the Church" just before the Diocletian Persecution, by which time there were already so many martyrs, and since the Roman Imperial church had from time immemorial served the liturgy in the "martyries," the graveyards where the tombs of Sts. Peter, Paul and other martyrs were to be found, it made sense to commemorate in perpetuity the blood shed for Christ by the Roman Empire by requiring the relics of martyrs to be present in the altars.   This would have been further bolstered by the Diocletian persecution.

Outside the Roman Empire, the Church did not experience such bloodshed, and would not, until the rise of Islam, and the Muslims tend to desecrate our altars routinely anyway, so it is quite logical that the Oriental churches, being chiefly those outside of Roman Imperial influence, would not have that custom.

I'm not convinced by this theory.

Quote
So here's an off the wall idea: perhaps the tablitho represented the sanctum sanctorum of the tabernacle; this would relate to the Ethiopian use of a miniature ark on their altars; so the consecrated altar represents the outer temple, but the tablitho, when placed on a consecrated altar, becomes the Holy of Holies; when used elsewhere, it does not require a consecrated altar to be placed upon, because of the descent of the Holy Spirit, divine providence, and so forth.   In other words, the Tablitho is the actual altar on which the Eucharistic sacrifice takes place; the consecrated altar on which the tablitho is placed is a sanctuary for the reception of the tablitho as opposed to a full, complete sacrificial altar in its own capacity.

Frankly, I find this theory ridiculous and irreverent. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2017, 01:00:52 PM »
I would be even more inclined to reject my original hypothesis if a tablitho consecrated by a bishop subsequently deposed for schism and heresy remains liturgically serviceable.   Is that the case?

The important consideration is whether or not the bishop had authority to consecrate at the time of consecration.  If so, then the tablitho is consecrated.  If not, it's not.  In this regard, it is no different from any other consecrated object or ordained person. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2017, 01:24:19 PM »
Point 1 is signifigant, and would seem to rule out the Tablitho as a "liturgical license plate."

By the way, perhaps the reason for EO and RC churches requiring relics in their altars is that this practice, according to tradition, began I believe in the "Little Peace of the Church" just before the Diocletian Persecution, by which time there were already so many martyrs, and since the Roman Imperial church had from time immemorial served the liturgy in the "martyries," the graveyards where the tombs of Sts. Peter, Paul and other martyrs were to be found, it made sense to commemorate in perpetuity the blood shed for Christ by the Roman Empire by requiring the relics of martyrs to be present in the altars.   This would have been further bolstered by the Diocletian persecution.

Outside the Roman Empire, the Church did not experience such bloodshed, and would not, until the rise of Islam, and the Muslims tend to desecrate our altars routinely anyway, so it is quite logical that the Oriental churches, being chiefly those outside of Roman Imperial influence, would not have that custom.

I'm not convinced by this theory.

Quote
So here's an off the wall idea: perhaps the tablitho represented the sanctum sanctorum of the tabernacle; this would relate to the Ethiopian use of a miniature ark on their altars; so the consecrated altar represents the outer temple, but the tablitho, when placed on a consecrated altar, becomes the Holy of Holies; when used elsewhere, it does not require a consecrated altar to be placed upon, because of the descent of the Holy Spirit, divine providence, and so forth.   In other words, the Tablitho is the actual altar on which the Eucharistic sacrifice takes place; the consecrated altar on which the tablitho is placed is a sanctuary for the reception of the tablitho as opposed to a full, complete sacrificial altar in its own capacity.

Frankly, I find this theory ridiculous and irreverent.

How so?

When the Qurbono is served, the tablitho is beneath it, beneath the three layers of cloth, right?

No irreverance was intended, by the way.  It just seems that in a sense, if you can only consecrate our Qurbono on a tablitho, (and if I am mistaken about where the tablitho resides on the altar, please pardon me and disregard this idea), the tablitho is the heart of the altar, the place of oblation, as it were.

If the tablitho resides elsewhere, then, alas, I will simply defer to your wisdom and accept that this is an aspect of our liturgy which the persecutions visited on our church have obscured the origins of, but which piety and tradition require us to maintain.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 01:24:40 PM by Alpha60 »
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2017, 01:31:43 PM »
I would be even more inclined to reject my original hypothesis if a tablitho consecrated by a bishop subsequently deposed for schism and heresy remains liturgically serviceable.   Is that the case?

The important consideration is whether or not the bishop had authority to consecrate at the time of consecration.  If so, then the tablitho is consecrated.  If not, it's not.  In this regard, it is no different from any other consecrated object or ordained person.

That would seem to further discredit the idea of tablitho as antimension, so I will now say that my earlier view is unlikely to be accurate.  A pity, because it would have on one level been nice had we been able to point to such a specific analogue between our rite and that of the Byzantines.

However, this lack of homogenity seems universal: the Catholic / Western Rite corporal and burse are also devoid of the ecclesial meaning of the antimension; the Coptic tablitho-equivalent does not have to remain on the altar, and the Ethiopians use a replica of the Ark of the Covenant as a sign of the consecration of their altar, so it would appear that there was no apostolic standard and only a vague universal sense, with the liturgical form following function in diverse ways in different churches.

There is certainly no point in standardizing this aspect of the liturgy across the different rites, nor would such standardization be of benefit.
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2017, 01:52:29 PM »
No irreverance was intended, by the way.  It just seems that in a sense, if you can only consecrate our Qurbono on a tablitho, (and if I am mistaken about where the tablitho resides on the altar, please pardon me and disregard this idea), the tablitho is the heart of the altar, the place of oblation, as it were.

The problem with your theory is that it cheapens the actual consecrated altar table by regarding it as a container for the tablitho.  Since they are consecrated in exactly the same way, this ultimately cheapens both. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2017, 05:35:17 PM »
No irreverance was intended, by the way.  It just seems that in a sense, if you can only consecrate our Qurbono on a tablitho, (and if I am mistaken about where the tablitho resides on the altar, please pardon me and disregard this idea), the tablitho is the heart of the altar, the place of oblation, as it were.

The problem with your theory is that it cheapens the actual consecrated altar table by regarding it as a container for the tablitho.  Since they are consecrated in exactly the same way, this ultimately cheapens both.

How so?

This "cheapening" may not be my fault, by the way; if both are consecrated in the same way and both are preferred for the Eucharist (the standalone use of the tablitho being for situations of strict neccessity), this would appear to be an aspect of the Syriac rite by design.  We should also not shy away from interpretations on purely aesthetic grounds; deacons are not required for the Qurbono, but the nobility and dignity of the diaconate is beyond question.  Our altar, by virtue of being not usable without the tablitho, already falls into this category; the tablitho and a priest are needed, whereas a consecrated altar and sacred ministers are simply preferred.  But surely this does not cheapen the consecrated altar, deacons and subdeacons, for every parish that can afford its own building swiftly acts to procure the consecration of its altar, and every parish that has people willing to serve and/or the means to support them has readers, subdeacons and deacons.

Let's pause on that note: I want to find out what the Armenians use and how they interpret it; given that their altar resembles ours but with more EO features such as a tabernacle or pyx for the reservation of the sacrament, it would be interesting to find out what object they use, how it is consecrated, and how it is interpreted.   If there is some similiarity, we could step back.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2017, 06:34:07 PM »
No irreverance was intended, by the way.  It just seems that in a sense, if you can only consecrate our Qurbono on a tablitho, (and if I am mistaken about where the tablitho resides on the altar, please pardon me and disregard this idea), the tablitho is the heart of the altar, the place of oblation, as it were.

The problem with your theory is that it cheapens the actual consecrated altar table by regarding it as a container for the tablitho.  Since they are consecrated in exactly the same way, this ultimately cheapens both.

How so?

Why would we consecrate an altar table in exactly the same way as a tablitho only to serve as a vessel for holding the tablitho?  The altar is the altar.  It's not superfluous. 

That the requirement of a tablitho even on consecrated altars appears to be an unnecessary duplication is true enough, but I don't see the need to create fanciful theories when simpler answers suffice. 

Quote
This "cheapening" may not be my fault, by the way; if both are consecrated in the same way and both are preferred for the Eucharist (the standalone use of the tablitho being for situations of strict neccessity), this would appear to be an aspect of the Syriac rite by design

Not necessarily.  You're looking for there there when there may not be any there there. 

Quote
We should also not shy away from interpretations on purely aesthetic grounds; deacons are not required for the Qurbono, but the nobility and dignity of the diaconate is beyond question.

Who said they are not required?  You might as well say bishops are not required.

Quote
Our altar, by virtue of being not usable without the tablitho, already falls into this category; the tablitho and a priest are needed, whereas a consecrated altar and sacred ministers are simply preferred.  But surely this does not cheapen the consecrated altar, deacons and subdeacons, for every parish that can afford its own building swiftly acts to procure the consecration of its altar, and every parish that has people willing to serve and/or the means to support them has readers, subdeacons and deacons.

There is no church that has a consecrated altar but no tablitho (they are consecrated at the same time), so there would never be an occasion where you wouldn't be able to use both.  Calling a consecrated altar "not usable without the tablitho" unnecessarily obscures the issue. 

Quote
Let's pause on that note: I want to find out what the Armenians use and how they interpret it; given that their altar resembles ours but with more EO features such as a tabernacle or pyx for the reservation of the sacrament, it would be interesting to find out what object they use, how it is consecrated, and how it is interpreted.   If there is some similiarity, we could step back.

I think a pause is a good thing.  Untangling your webs can be tiresome. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2017, 07:22:31 PM »
No irreverance was intended, by the way.  It just seems that in a sense, if you can only consecrate our Qurbono on a tablitho, (and if I am mistaken about where the tablitho resides on the altar, please pardon me and disregard this idea), the tablitho is the heart of the altar, the place of oblation, as it were.

The problem with your theory is that it cheapens the actual consecrated altar table by regarding it as a container for the tablitho.  Since they are consecrated in exactly the same way, this ultimately cheapens both.

How so?

Why would we consecrate an altar table in exactly the same way as a tablitho only to serve as a vessel for holding the tablitho?  The altar is the altar.  It's not superfluous. 

That the requirement of a tablitho even on consecrated altars appears to be an unnecessary duplication is true enough, but I don't see the need to create fanciful theories when simpler answers suffice. 

Quote
This "cheapening" may not be my fault, by the way; if both are consecrated in the same way and both are preferred for the Eucharist (the standalone use of the tablitho being for situations of strict neccessity), this would appear to be an aspect of the Syriac rite by design

Not necessarily.  You're looking for there there when there may not be any there there. 

Quote
We should also not shy away from interpretations on purely aesthetic grounds; deacons are not required for the Qurbono, but the nobility and dignity of the diaconate is beyond question.

Who said they are not required?  You might as well say bishops are not required.

Quote
Our altar, by virtue of being not usable without the tablitho, already falls into this category; the tablitho and a priest are needed, whereas a consecrated altar and sacred ministers are simply preferred.  But surely this does not cheapen the consecrated altar, deacons and subdeacons, for every parish that can afford its own building swiftly acts to procure the consecration of its altar, and every parish that has people willing to serve and/or the means to support them has readers, subdeacons and deacons.

There is no church that has a consecrated altar but no tablitho (they are consecrated at the same time), so there would never be an occasion where you wouldn't be able to use both.  Calling a consecrated altar "not usable without the tablitho" unnecessarily obscures the issue. 

Quote
Let's pause on that note: I want to find out what the Armenians use and how they interpret it; given that their altar resembles ours but with more EO features such as a tabernacle or pyx for the reservation of the sacrament, it would be interesting to find out what object they use, how it is consecrated, and how it is interpreted.   If there is some similiarity, we could step back.

I think a pause is a good thing.  Untangling your webs can be tiresome.

Agreed that a pause is a good thing. Also, I'm not looking forward to my church's Liturgical Tradition being involved in any of this pointless speculation.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 10:28:12 PM by Brigidsboy »
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2017, 10:23:39 PM »
Also, I'm not looking forward to my church's Liturgical Tradition being involved an any of this pointless speculation.

 :-*
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2017, 08:50:03 AM »
Just throwing this out there, my parish's antimension has Metropolitan Jonah's (Paffhausen) signature on it and we have a new diocesan hierarch, so......it hasn't expired.
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2017, 09:58:45 AM »
Just throwing this out there, my parish's antimension has Metropolitan Jonah's (Paffhausen) signature on it and we have a new diocesan hierarch, so......it hasn't expired.

Your hearts belong to ROCOR. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2017, 12:32:57 PM »
Just throwing this out there, my parish's antimension has Metropolitan Jonah's (Paffhausen) signature on it and we have a new diocesan hierarch, so......it hasn't expired.

Your hearts belong to ROCOR.

Usually, until something WR goes goofy.
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2017, 01:51:17 PM »
No irreverance was intended, by the way.  It just seems that in a sense, if you can only consecrate our Qurbono on a tablitho, (and if I am mistaken about where the tablitho resides on the altar, please pardon me and disregard this idea), the tablitho is the heart of the altar, the place of oblation, as it were.

The problem with your theory is that it cheapens the actual consecrated altar table by regarding it as a container for the tablitho.  Since they are consecrated in exactly the same way, this ultimately cheapens both.

How so?

Why would we consecrate an altar table in exactly the same way as a tablitho only to serve as a vessel for holding the tablitho?  The altar is the altar.  It's not superfluous. 

That the requirement of a tablitho even on consecrated altars appears to be an unnecessary duplication is true enough, but I don't see the need to create fanciful theories when simpler answers suffice. 

Quote
This "cheapening" may not be my fault, by the way; if both are consecrated in the same way and both are preferred for the Eucharist (the standalone use of the tablitho being for situations of strict neccessity), this would appear to be an aspect of the Syriac rite by design

Not necessarily.  You're looking for there there when there may not be any there there. 

Quote
We should also not shy away from interpretations on purely aesthetic grounds; deacons are not required for the Qurbono, but the nobility and dignity of the diaconate is beyond question.

Who said they are not required?  You might as well say bishops are not required.

Quote
Our altar, by virtue of being not usable without the tablitho, already falls into this category; the tablitho and a priest are needed, whereas a consecrated altar and sacred ministers are simply preferred.  But surely this does not cheapen the consecrated altar, deacons and subdeacons, for every parish that can afford its own building swiftly acts to procure the consecration of its altar, and every parish that has people willing to serve and/or the means to support them has readers, subdeacons and deacons.

There is no church that has a consecrated altar but no tablitho (they are consecrated at the same time), so there would never be an occasion where you wouldn't be able to use both.  Calling a consecrated altar "not usable without the tablitho" unnecessarily obscures the issue. 

Quote
Let's pause on that note: I want to find out what the Armenians use and how they interpret it; given that their altar resembles ours but with more EO features such as a tabernacle or pyx for the reservation of the sacrament, it would be interesting to find out what object they use, how it is consecrated, and how it is interpreted.   If there is some similiarity, we could step back.

I think a pause is a good thing.  Untangling your webs can be tiresome.

How is this argument not cheapening the tablitho?

It seems to me the problem with your argument is it deprecates or seeks to deprecate the tablitho to the status of an auxilliary mobile altar.  If I am arguing for the dignity of the tablitho at the expense of thr altar, you're doing the opposite, based on the Coptic tradition where their tablitho-equivalent is not required on the altar, unlike the tablitho or antimension.
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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2017, 01:59:30 PM »
No irreverance was intended, by the way.  It just seems that in a sense, if you can only consecrate our Qurbono on a tablitho, (and if I am mistaken about where the tablitho resides on the altar, please pardon me and disregard this idea), the tablitho is the heart of the altar, the place of oblation, as it were.

The problem with your theory is that it cheapens the actual consecrated altar table by regarding it as a container for the tablitho.  Since they are consecrated in exactly the same way, this ultimately cheapens both.

How so?

Why would we consecrate an altar table in exactly the same way as a tablitho only to serve as a vessel for holding the tablitho?  The altar is the altar.  It's not superfluous. 

That the requirement of a tablitho even on consecrated altars appears to be an unnecessary duplication is true enough, but I don't see the need to create fanciful theories when simpler answers suffice. 

Quote
This "cheapening" may not be my fault, by the way; if both are consecrated in the same way and both are preferred for the Eucharist (the standalone use of the tablitho being for situations of strict neccessity), this would appear to be an aspect of the Syriac rite by design

Not necessarily.  You're looking for there there when there may not be any there there. 

Quote
We should also not shy away from interpretations on purely aesthetic grounds; deacons are not required for the Qurbono, but the nobility and dignity of the diaconate is beyond question.

Who said they are not required?  You might as well say bishops are not required.

Quote
Our altar, by virtue of being not usable without the tablitho, already falls into this category; the tablitho and a priest are needed, whereas a consecrated altar and sacred ministers are simply preferred.  But surely this does not cheapen the consecrated altar, deacons and subdeacons, for every parish that can afford its own building swiftly acts to procure the consecration of its altar, and every parish that has people willing to serve and/or the means to support them has readers, subdeacons and deacons.

There is no church that has a consecrated altar but no tablitho (they are consecrated at the same time), so there would never be an occasion where you wouldn't be able to use both.  Calling a consecrated altar "not usable without the tablitho" unnecessarily obscures the issue. 

Quote
Let's pause on that note: I want to find out what the Armenians use and how they interpret it; given that their altar resembles ours but with more EO features such as a tabernacle or pyx for the reservation of the sacrament, it would be interesting to find out what object they use, how it is consecrated, and how it is interpreted.   If there is some similiarity, we could step back.

I think a pause is a good thing.  Untangling your webs can be tiresome.

How is this argument not cheapening the tablitho?

It seems to me the problem with your argument is it deprecates or seeks to deprecate the tablitho to the status of an auxilliary mobile altar.  If I am arguing for the dignity of the tablitho at the expense of thr altar, you're doing the opposite, based on the Coptic tradition where their tablitho-equivalent is not required on the altar, unlike the tablitho or antimension.

Where am I doing any such thing?  Coptic tradition doesn't really factor into my thinking on this issue. 

The tablitho is consecrated at the same time as an altar table, with the same prayers, the same rites, etc.  They are essentially the same thing.   

Your argument was that the altar table is a sanctified receptacle for the tablitho, and I think that cheapens the altar because, even though it is blessed in the same way as a tablitho, it is only a container, while the tablitho is the real deal.   

I'm not arguing that the altar is more important than the tablitho, I'm arguing that they're the same thing. 

IMO, your problem in this thread is your inability to understand that sometimes things are just done a certain way and there's no other reason than "that's just the way we do it.  Also, you're trying to turn Syriac liturgics into an ecumenical overture to Eastern Orthodoxy.  Our rite is not an agenda.  It's the worship of God in spirit and truth. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2017, 02:02:33 PM »
No irreverance was intended, by the way.  It just seems that in a sense, if you can only consecrate our Qurbono on a tablitho, (and if I am mistaken about where the tablitho resides on the altar, please pardon me and disregard this idea), the tablitho is the heart of the altar, the place of oblation, as it were.

The problem with your theory is that it cheapens the actual consecrated altar table by regarding it as a container for the tablitho.  Since they are consecrated in exactly the same way, this ultimately cheapens both.

How so?

Why would we consecrate an altar table in exactly the same way as a tablitho only to serve as a vessel for holding the tablitho?  The altar is the altar.  It's not superfluous. 

That the requirement of a tablitho even on consecrated altars appears to be an unnecessary duplication is true enough, but I don't see the need to create fanciful theories when simpler answers suffice. 

Quote
This "cheapening" may not be my fault, by the way; if both are consecrated in the same way and both are preferred for the Eucharist (the standalone use of the tablitho being for situations of strict neccessity), this would appear to be an aspect of the Syriac rite by design

Not necessarily.  You're looking for there there when there may not be any there there. 

Quote
We should also not shy away from interpretations on purely aesthetic grounds; deacons are not required for the Qurbono, but the nobility and dignity of the diaconate is beyond question.

Who said they are not required?  You might as well say bishops are not required.

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Our altar, by virtue of being not usable without the tablitho, already falls into this category; the tablitho and a priest are needed, whereas a consecrated altar and sacred ministers are simply preferred.  But surely this does not cheapen the consecrated altar, deacons and subdeacons, for every parish that can afford its own building swiftly acts to procure the consecration of its altar, and every parish that has people willing to serve and/or the means to support them has readers, subdeacons and deacons.

There is no church that has a consecrated altar but no tablitho (they are consecrated at the same time), so there would never be an occasion where you wouldn't be able to use both.  Calling a consecrated altar "not usable without the tablitho" unnecessarily obscures the issue. 

Quote
Let's pause on that note: I want to find out what the Armenians use and how they interpret it; given that their altar resembles ours but with more EO features such as a tabernacle or pyx for the reservation of the sacrament, it would be interesting to find out what object they use, how it is consecrated, and how it is interpreted.   If there is some similiarity, we could step back.

I think a pause is a good thing.  Untangling your webs can be tiresome.

How is this argument not cheapening the tablitho?

It seems to me the problem with your argument is it deprecates or seeks to deprecate the tablitho to the status of an auxilliary mobile altar.  If I am arguing for the dignity of the tablitho at the expense of thr altar, you're doing the opposite, based on the Coptic tradition where their tablitho-equivalent is not required on the altar, unlike the tablitho or antimension.

Where am I doing any such thing?  Coptic tradition doesn't really factor into my thinking on this issue. 

The tablitho is consecrated at the same time as an altar table, with the same prayers, the same rites, etc.  They are essentially the same thing.   

Your argument was that the altar table is a sanctified receptacle for the tablitho, and I think that cheapens the altar because, even though it is blessed in the same way as a tablitho, it is only a container, while the tablitho is the real deal.   

I'm not arguing that the altar is more important than the tablitho, I'm arguing that they're the same thing. 

IMO, your problem in this thread is your inability to understand that sometimes things are just done a certain way and there's no other reason than "that's just the way we do it.  Also, you're trying to turn Syriac liturgics into an ecumenical overture to Eastern Orthodoxy.  Our rite is not an agenda.  It's the worship of God in spirit and truth.

Well said!😊
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2017, 02:17:52 PM »
No irreverance was intended, by the way.  It just seems that in a sense, if you can only consecrate our Qurbono on a tablitho, (and if I am mistaken about where the tablitho resides on the altar, please pardon me and disregard this idea), the tablitho is the heart of the altar, the place of oblation, as it were.

The problem with your theory is that it cheapens the actual consecrated altar table by regarding it as a container for the tablitho.  Since they are consecrated in exactly the same way, this ultimately cheapens both.

How so?

Why would we consecrate an altar table in exactly the same way as a tablitho only to serve as a vessel for holding the tablitho?  The altar is the altar.  It's not superfluous. 

That the requirement of a tablitho even on consecrated altars appears to be an unnecessary duplication is true enough, but I don't see the need to create fanciful theories when simpler answers suffice. 

Quote
This "cheapening" may not be my fault, by the way; if both are consecrated in the same way and both are preferred for the Eucharist (the standalone use of the tablitho being for situations of strict neccessity), this would appear to be an aspect of the Syriac rite by design

Not necessarily.  You're looking for there there when there may not be any there there. 

Quote
We should also not shy away from interpretations on purely aesthetic grounds; deacons are not required for the Qurbono, but the nobility and dignity of the diaconate is beyond question.

Who said they are not required?  You might as well say bishops are not required.

Quote
Our altar, by virtue of being not usable without the tablitho, already falls into this category; the tablitho and a priest are needed, whereas a consecrated altar and sacred ministers are simply preferred.  But surely this does not cheapen the consecrated altar, deacons and subdeacons, for every parish that can afford its own building swiftly acts to procure the consecration of its altar, and every parish that has people willing to serve and/or the means to support them has readers, subdeacons and deacons.

There is no church that has a consecrated altar but no tablitho (they are consecrated at the same time), so there would never be an occasion where you wouldn't be able to use both.  Calling a consecrated altar "not usable without the tablitho" unnecessarily obscures the issue. 

Quote
Let's pause on that note: I want to find out what the Armenians use and how they interpret it; given that their altar resembles ours but with more EO features such as a tabernacle or pyx for the reservation of the sacrament, it would be interesting to find out what object they use, how it is consecrated, and how it is interpreted.   If there is some similiarity, we could step back.

I think a pause is a good thing.  Untangling your webs can be tiresome.

How is this argument not cheapening the tablitho?

It seems to me the problem with your argument is it deprecates or seeks to deprecate the tablitho to the status of an auxilliary mobile altar.  If I am arguing for the dignity of the tablitho at the expense of thr altar, you're doing the opposite, based on the Coptic tradition where their tablitho-equivalent is not required on the altar, unlike the tablitho or antimension.

Where am I doing any such thing?  Coptic tradition doesn't really factor into my thinking on this issue. 

The tablitho is consecrated at the same time as an altar table, with the same prayers, the same rites, etc.  They are essentially the same thing.   

Your argument was that the altar table is a sanctified receptacle for the tablitho, and I think that cheapens the altar because, even though it is blessed in the same way as a tablitho, it is only a container, while the tablitho is the real deal.   

I'm not arguing that the altar is more important than the tablitho, I'm arguing that they're the same thing. 

IMO, your problem in this thread is your inability to understand that sometimes things are just done a certain way and there's no other reason than "that's just the way we do it.  Also, you're trying to turn Syriac liturgics into an ecumenical overture to Eastern Orthodoxy.  Our rite is not an agenda.  It's the worship of God in spirit and truth.

I am not trying to use liturgics for purposes of ecumenism, even though having a point by point liturgical analogy would be convenient.  Our rite is certainly not an agenda, and I would be opposed to any attempt to change it into that.  The liturgy is the main function of the Church, the Eucharist the very means to immortality and communion with God.  I have also previously admitted that tihs scenario could well be a case where the reasons behind our use of the tablitho are lost to us historically.   I refuse to believe any aspect of our liturgy is of an arbitrary or capricious origin; if we can't say why we do something, its because we don't know, and not because there was not, at one time, an important reason for it.  For example, I have no idea why we cross ourselves in the opposite direction as the Byzantines, but I am sure there was at one time a logical reason for it.

Now, if you believe the altar and the tablitho are the same thing, is that not directly contradicted by the fact that they're not?  In other words, they are consecrated the same way, they are both used for consecrating the Eucharist, but the tablitho can be used without the altar, the reverse is not true, and the altar cannot be moved.   

Note that I am not arguing in an attempt to show the altar is a mere container for the Tablitho; I understand now why you found that line of thought objectionable.   But it also is not the same thing as the Tablitho, and it does require the presence of a tablitho in our rite for the Eucharist to be consecrated on it.
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2017, 02:53:04 PM »
Now, if you believe the altar and the tablitho are the same thing, is that not directly contradicted by the fact that they're not?  In other words, they are consecrated the same way, they are both used for consecrating the Eucharist, but the tablitho can be used without the altar, the reverse is not true, and the altar cannot be moved. 

Note that I am not arguing in an attempt to show the altar is a mere container for the Tablitho; I understand now why you found that line of thought objectionable.   But it also is not the same thing as the Tablitho, and it does require the presence of a tablitho in our rite for the Eucharist to be consecrated on it.

Even though they are consecrated in the same exact way, and so theoretically having only one or the other suffices, no priest would use a consecrated altar without a tablitho because using a tablitho is the centuries-old received tradition and priests are rarely so impious as to turn the Liturgy into a lab for conducting experiments based on their pet theories.   

Alpha60, have you ever attended a church consecration?  Have you seen the consecration of altars and tablyotho up close?  Have you read/studied the text and rubrics of the rite? 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2017, 03:10:24 PM »
Now, if you believe the altar and the tablitho are the same thing, is that not directly contradicted by the fact that they're not?  In other words, they are consecrated the same way, they are both used for consecrating the Eucharist, but the tablitho can be used without the altar, the reverse is not true, and the altar cannot be moved. 

Note that I am not arguing in an attempt to show the altar is a mere container for the Tablitho; I understand now why you found that line of thought objectionable.   But it also is not the same thing as the Tablitho, and it does require the presence of a tablitho in our rite for the Eucharist to be consecrated on it.

Even though they are consecrated in the same exact way, and so theoretically having only one or the other suffices, no priest would use a consecrated altar without a tablitho because using a tablitho is the centuries-old received tradition and priests are rarely so impious as to turn the Liturgy into a lab for conducting experiments based on their pet theories.   

Who said they would?

Is your position that theoretically the tablitho is not required?  Because that would seem to be a new departure from where we were previously, of accepting this rite, but not knowing why things were this way, to saying that the use of the tablitho is actually even in theory optional and that it is only the binding forces of piety and tradition that prevent it from being discarded. 

My view is the binding forces of piety and tradition prevent us from even contemplating a liturgy where the Eucharist was consecrated on an altar without a tablitho, in the Syriac church.  So we should avoid, for example, proposing that having an altar without a tablitho is even theoretically sufficient, owing to the extreme importance of maintaining of liturgical tradition.   It is the meticulous attention to detail and tradition which separates the divine and glorious liturgy of our church from the  worldly and banal liturgy of the Maronites.

Quote

Alpha60, have you ever attended a church consecration?  Have you seen the consecration of altars and tablyotho up close?  Have you read/studied the text and rubrics of the rite?

Yes, yes, and no (due to the lack of English translation).
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2017, 03:34:33 PM »
Now, if you believe the altar and the tablitho are the same thing, is that not directly contradicted by the fact that they're not?  In other words, they are consecrated the same way, they are both used for consecrating the Eucharist, but the tablitho can be used without the altar, the reverse is not true, and the altar cannot be moved. 

Note that I am not arguing in an attempt to show the altar is a mere container for the Tablitho; I understand now why you found that line of thought objectionable.   But it also is not the same thing as the Tablitho, and it does require the presence of a tablitho in our rite for the Eucharist to be consecrated on it.

Even though they are consecrated in the same exact way, and so theoretically having only one or the other suffices, no priest would use a consecrated altar without a tablitho because using a tablitho is the centuries-old received tradition and priests are rarely so impious as to turn the Liturgy into a lab for conducting experiments based on their pet theories.   

Who said they would?

Is your position that theoretically the tablitho is not required?  Because that would seem to be a new departure from where we were previously, of accepting this rite, but not knowing why things were this way, to saying that the use of the tablitho is actually even in theory optional and that it is only the binding forces of piety and tradition that prevent it from being discarded. 

You are too busy thinking to think. 

In every rite, the indispensable requirement is an altar.  Some rites have developed portable alternatives for use in cases when a proper altar was not available.  They are consecrated in the same way as a stationary altar. 

Over time, our practice became to use the portable altar even on a stationary, consecrated altar, and that practice has been the only practice for centuries. 

At this point, theoretical speculation is only helpful in terms of offering historical and liturgical insights.  But asking if a tablitho is theoretically dispensable is a useless question for two reasons:

1.  There is no instance in which you would have access to a consecrated altar but not a tablitho, and so there's no legitimate reason not to follow the received tradition and use both; and
2.  If I answer such a question with either a "yes" or a "no", it's going to start turning some cogs in your brain and you're going to come up with some new cockamamie ideas that I'll have to take time to debunk. 

Quote
My view is the binding forces of piety and tradition prevent us from even contemplating a liturgy where the Eucharist was consecrated on an altar without a tablitho, in the Syriac church.  So we should avoid, for example, proposing that having an altar without a tablitho is even theoretically sufficient, owing to the extreme importance of maintaining of liturgical tradition.   It is the meticulous attention to detail and tradition which separates the divine and glorious liturgy of our church from the  worldly and banal liturgy of the Maronites.

How many bizarre ideas have you not only contemplated but advocated that go against "the binding forces of piety and tradition"?  Many.

If I have said anything in this thread, it is only to unpack your confusion.  I don't regard the liturgy as a fly-in-amber, nor do I think everything needs to be changed and reformed because we are able to change and reform.  There is a tradition, and I'm explaining what it is.  The problem is that the explanation doesn't neatly fit into your pre-determined framework. 

Quote
Quote

Alpha60, have you ever attended a church consecration?  Have you seen the consecration of altars and tablyotho up close?  Have you read/studied the text and rubrics of the rite?

Yes, yes, and no (due to the lack of English translation).

And what did you observe when you attended this ceremony? 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2017, 04:34:53 PM »
It is the meticulous attention to detail and tradition which separates the divine and glorious liturgy of our church from the  worldly and banal liturgy of the Maronites.
This is the third or fourth swipe you've made against the Maronites lately and I would ask you to stop.  You can exalt your tradition without putting down others.   I've been to Maronite liturgies that were neither worldly nor banal.
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2017, 04:49:14 PM »
It is the meticulous attention to detail and tradition which separates the divine and glorious liturgy of our church from the  worldly and banal liturgy of the Maronites.
This is the third or fourth swipe you've made against the Maronites lately and I would ask you to stop.  You can exalt your tradition without putting down others.   I've been to Maronite liturgies that were neither worldly nor banal.

I've never attended a Maronite liturgy, but that doesn't prevent me from echoing Deacon Lance's point: the swipe was unnecessary, and comes off as either an ignorant comment or a mean-spirited one (or maybe both).
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2017, 05:58:33 PM »
It is the meticulous attention to detail and tradition which separates the divine and glorious liturgy of our church from the  worldly and banal liturgy of the Maronites.
This is the third or fourth swipe you've made against the Maronites lately and I would ask you to stop.  You can exalt your tradition without putting down others.   I've been to Maronite liturgies that were neither worldly nor banal.

I've never attended a Maronite liturgy, but that doesn't prevent me from echoing Deacon Lance's point: the swipe was unnecessary, and comes off as either an ignorant comment or a mean-spirited one (or maybe both).

No offense to Eastern Catholics was intended, but I do concede that swipe was a bit of a low blow, and apologize for any offense.

Just so you know where I was coming from: I do have a specific gripe with the Maronite Catholic hierarchy in the US and other places in the diaspora when it comes to liturgics.  Basically, to de-Latinize their liturgy in the wake of Vatican II, they adopted a radically simplified form of the Syriac Catholic liturgy, which is fine.  But then, they admitted, on a massive scale, the use of keyboards, praise and worship music, so when it comes to these offensive liturgical innovations, the churches of the Maronite diaspora are the worst offenders (and we have had two current or former Maronite Catholic members who have made this complaint, one recently, in this forum, I believe, or in EO-RC, and the other was Maria, who is of a Maronite background).

But this should not be interpreted as being critical of the Maronites as a people or as an ethnic group or indeed even from a historical liturgical standpoint.  It's rather, the Maronite liturgy, or the abuses of it which have become de rigeur in the US, represent what I fear could happen to the Syriac Orthodox liturgy if we were to become lax on matters of ceremony.  Right now, my archdiocese is already taking more shortcuts than I am comfortable with (for example, by modifying the Anaphora of Mar Bar Salibi to include the consecratory parts of the Anaphora of St. James, in order to avoid using the latter when it is canonically required, and thus, in order to shorten the services and avoid the costs of printing two sets of service books).

So, in mentioning the Maronites, it was from the perspective of that, as opposed to any dislike of the Maronite Catholics as a people, ethnic group, et cetera.  I have a very high regard for the Maronite Christians and their history and traditions, and have known several.
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2017, 07:31:10 PM »
It's rather, the Maronite liturgy, or the abuses of it which have become de rigeur in the US, represent what I fear could happen to the Syriac Orthodox liturgy if we were to become lax on matters of ceremony.  Right now, my archdiocese is already taking more shortcuts than I am comfortable with (for example, by modifying the Anaphora of Mar Bar Salibi to include the consecratory parts of the Anaphora of St. James, in order to avoid using the latter when it is canonically required, and thus, in order to shorten the services and avoid the costs of printing two sets of service books).

If that's the main complaint, then you don't know a tenth of the laxity in your archdiocese.  ^This isn't as big a deal as you're making it.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 07:32:31 PM by Mor Ephrem »
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2017, 08:51:28 PM »
The antimension, tablitho, maqta, gorbura all seem to have come about because one party would have control of a church and deny its use to the other party. Thus a small portable cloth or wood tablet could be used on top of an ordinary table in a home, a cave, the woods, etc.  Once the opposing parties each had their own churches the need was no longer there but the tradition continued.  so both the altar is consecrated as it always had and the anti-altar was consecrated as well.  Note two traditions that were never denied their churches by an opposing party do not have this tradition, the Roman and Assyrian.  The Ethiopians also weren't forced out by another party but do use the tabot.  I would guess they adopted the practice from the Copts but gave it a different meaning.  The Roman use of the portable altar stone was started so that chaplains could celebrate Mass for the armies they accompanied.
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2017, 11:20:34 PM »
It's rather, the Maronite liturgy, or the abuses of it which have become de rigeur in the US, represent what I fear could happen to the Syriac Orthodox liturgy if we were to become lax on matters of ceremony.  Right now, my archdiocese is already taking more shortcuts than I am comfortable with (for example, by modifying the Anaphora of Mar Bar Salibi to include the consecratory parts of the Anaphora of St. James, in order to avoid using the latter when it is canonically required, and thus, in order to shorten the services and avoid the costs of printing two sets of service books).

If that's the main complaint, then you don't know a tenth of the laxity in your archdiocese.  ^This isn't as big a deal as you're making it.

Its not my biggest gripe.  Some of our parishes have keyboards.  None have vespers except in Lent and Holy Week.
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2017, 11:25:30 PM »
The antimension, tablitho, maqta, gorbura all seem to have come about because one party would have control of a church and deny its use to the other party. Thus a small portable cloth or wood tablet could be used on top of an ordinary table in a home, a cave, the woods, etc.  Once the opposing parties each had their own churches the need was no longer there but the tradition continued.  so both the altar is consecrated as it always had and the anti-altar was consecrated as well.  Note two traditions that were never denied their churches by an opposing party do not have this tradition, the Roman and Assyrian.  The Ethiopians also weren't forced out by another party but do use the tabot.  I would guess they adopted the practice from the Copts but gave it a different meaning.  The Roman use of the portable altar stone was started so that chaplains could celebrate Mass for the armies they accompanied.

I am told by someone who should know that Assyrians have a wooden tablet used on the altar.  Its not called a tablitha, but something else, although tablitha would describe it, he said.  This was relayed to me by Fr. Ephrem, who ran the East Meets East blog.

Therr is also much evidence of Assyrian denial of churches to the opposing party; the Assyrian Nestorian Church of the East overlaps the Syriac Orthodox Church in all of its historic territories except Palestine, Damascus and Lebanon, and there is much evidence of a bitter rivalry between the two churches, particularly those in India which both used the East Syriac Rite.

That said, your theory as to the origin of these devices is interesting and compelling.
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2017, 11:59:08 PM »
The antimension, tablitho, maqta, gorbura all seem to have come about because one party would have control of a church and deny its use to the other party. Thus a small portable cloth or wood tablet could be used on top of an ordinary table in a home, a cave, the woods, etc.  Once the opposing parties each had their own churches the need was no longer there but the tradition continued.  so both the altar is consecrated as it always had and the anti-altar was consecrated as well.  Note two traditions that were never denied their churches by an opposing party do not have this tradition, the Roman and Assyrian.  The Ethiopians also weren't forced out by another party but do use the tabot.  I would guess they adopted the practice from the Copts but gave it a different meaning.  The Roman use of the portable altar stone was started so that chaplains could celebrate Mass for the armies they accompanied.

I am told by someone who should know that Assyrians have a wooden tablet used on the altar.  Its not called a tablitha, but something else, although tablitha would describe it, he said.  This was relayed to me by Fr. Ephrem, who ran the East Meets East blog.

Therr is also much evidence of Assyrian denial of churches to the opposing party; the Assyrian Nestorian Church of the East overlaps the Syriac Orthodox Church in all of its historic territories except Palestine, Damascus and Lebanon, and there is much evidence of a bitter rivalry between the two churches, particularly those in India which both used the East Syriac Rite.

That said, your theory as to the origin of these devices is interesting and compelling.

It seems utterly uncompelling to me.
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2017, 12:41:10 AM »
The antimension, tablitho, maqta, gorbura all seem to have come about because one party would have control of a church and deny its use to the other party. Thus a small portable cloth or wood tablet could be used on top of an ordinary table in a home, a cave, the woods, etc.  Once the opposing parties each had their own churches the need was no longer there but the tradition continued.  so both the altar is consecrated as it always had and the anti-altar was consecrated as well.  Note two traditions that were never denied their churches by an opposing party do not have this tradition, the Roman and Assyrian.  The Ethiopians also weren't forced out by another party but do use the tabot.  I would guess they adopted the practice from the Copts but gave it a different meaning.  The Roman use of the portable altar stone was started so that chaplains could celebrate Mass for the armies they accompanied.

I am told by someone who should know that Assyrians have a wooden tablet used on the altar.  Its not called a tablitha, but something else, although tablitha would describe it, he said.  This was relayed to me by Fr. Ephrem, who ran the East Meets East blog.

Therr is also much evidence of Assyrian denial of churches to the opposing party; the Assyrian Nestorian Church of the East overlaps the Syriac Orthodox Church in all of its historic territories except Palestine, Damascus and Lebanon, and there is much evidence of a bitter rivalry between the two churches, particularly those in India which both used the East Syriac Rite.

That said, your theory as to the origin of these devices is interesting and compelling.

I recently watched an Assyrian Liturgy with an ordination of a bishop and unless the tablet is set into a recess in the altar there was none.  In fact they didn't use and iliton/corporal either.  The patens and chalices were just laid on the altar which had a simple altar cloth and the vessels were covered with one large veil.
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2017, 12:42:01 AM »
The antimension, tablitho, maqta, gorbura all seem to have come about because one party would have control of a church and deny its use to the other party. Thus a small portable cloth or wood tablet could be used on top of an ordinary table in a home, a cave, the woods, etc.  Once the opposing parties each had their own churches the need was no longer there but the tradition continued.  so both the altar is consecrated as it always had and the anti-altar was consecrated as well.  Note two traditions that were never denied their churches by an opposing party do not have this tradition, the Roman and Assyrian.  The Ethiopians also weren't forced out by another party but do use the tabot.  I would guess they adopted the practice from the Copts but gave it a different meaning.  The Roman use of the portable altar stone was started so that chaplains could celebrate Mass for the armies they accompanied.

I am told by someone who should know that Assyrians have a wooden tablet used on the altar.  Its not called a tablitha, but something else, although tablitha would describe it, he said.  This was relayed to me by Fr. Ephrem, who ran the East Meets East blog.

Therr is also much evidence of Assyrian denial of churches to the opposing party; the Assyrian Nestorian Church of the East overlaps the Syriac Orthodox Church in all of its historic territories except Palestine, Damascus and Lebanon, and there is much evidence of a bitter rivalry between the two churches, particularly those in India which both used the East Syriac Rite.

That said, your theory as to the origin of these devices is interesting and compelling.

It seems utterly uncompelling to me.
Why?
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2017, 12:55:41 AM »
Alpha60,

You may find this interesting:

The Antimension in the Liturgical and Canonical
Tradition of the Byzantine and Latin Churches
An Inter-ritual Inter-confessional Study
by Right Rev Archimandrite Januarius M Izzo, OFM, MA, JCD

https://archive.org/details/antimensioninlit00izzo
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2017, 01:21:22 AM »
The antimension, tablitho, maqta, gorbura all seem to have come about because one party would have control of a church and deny its use to the other party. Thus a small portable cloth or wood tablet could be used on top of an ordinary table in a home, a cave, the woods, etc.  Once the opposing parties each had their own churches the need was no longer there but the tradition continued.  so both the altar is consecrated as it always had and the anti-altar was consecrated as well.  Note two traditions that were never denied their churches by an opposing party do not have this tradition, the Roman and Assyrian.  The Ethiopians also weren't forced out by another party but do use the tabot.  I would guess they adopted the practice from the Copts but gave it a different meaning.  The Roman use of the portable altar stone was started so that chaplains could celebrate Mass for the armies they accompanied.

I am told by someone who should know that Assyrians have a wooden tablet used on the altar.  Its not called a tablitha, but something else, although tablitha would describe it, he said.  This was relayed to me by Fr. Ephrem, who ran the East Meets East blog.

Therr is also much evidence of Assyrian denial of churches to the opposing party; the Assyrian Nestorian Church of the East overlaps the Syriac Orthodox Church in all of its historic territories except Palestine, Damascus and Lebanon, and there is much evidence of a bitter rivalry between the two churches, particularly those in India which both used the East Syriac Rite.

That said, your theory as to the origin of these devices is interesting and compelling.

I recently watched an Assyrian Liturgy with an ordination of a bishop and unless the tablet is set into a recess in the altar there was none.  In fact they didn't use and iliton/corporal either.  The patens and chalices were just laid on the altar which had a simple altar cloth and the vessels were covered with one large veil.

Or they use the tablitha in the Coptic manner, as a portable altar, and don't require it on a consecrated altar during the liturgy (I can't remember what the rule was regarding that). 

Fun fact: every Assyrian altar is required by their rubrics to contain an icon of our Lord, but virtually none have one due to historical reasons.   Fr. Ephrem is one of just a few priests pushing to remedy that; at the new Assyrian modesto in Fresno, I think they installed an Icon Not Made by Hands on their altar.   There is a popular assumption of iconoclasm in the Assyrian church which is contrary to their official doctrine, but the result of people praying in iconoless churches for too long.
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2017, 01:24:37 AM »
Alpha60,

You may find this interesting:

The Antimension in the Liturgical and Canonical
Tradition of the Byzantine and Latin Churches
An Inter-ritual Inter-confessional Study
by Right Rev Archimandrite Januarius M Izzo, OFM, MA, JCD

https://archive.org/details/antimensioninlit00izzo

Very.  Good find.   Thank you, Fr. Deacon.

Also again I want to apologize for the Maronite remark.  I think I explained to you adequetely why I said that; I was not referring to all Maronite liturgies or to the Maronite people but rather to the extreme liturgical abuses in Maronite parishes in the US, which are exceeded only by what happens in Latin Rite parishes IMO.   The actual Maronite service books are lovely, sort or a simplified form of our Syriac Orthodox liturgy, and I have a recording of a Maronite mass with traditional music which is also lovely.

My stomach is exploding and this has my temper fouled up.  The ascetics who wrote about the stomach inflaming the passions were not kidding.
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2017, 01:42:08 PM »
The antimension, tablitho, maqta, gorbura all seem to have come about because one party would have control of a church and deny its use to the other party. Thus a small portable cloth or wood tablet could be used on top of an ordinary table in a home, a cave, the woods, etc.  Once the opposing parties each had their own churches the need was no longer there but the tradition continued.  so both the altar is consecrated as it always had and the anti-altar was consecrated as well.  Note two traditions that were never denied their churches by an opposing party do not have this tradition, the Roman and Assyrian.  The Ethiopians also weren't forced out by another party but do use the tabot.  I would guess they adopted the practice from the Copts but gave it a different meaning.  The Roman use of the portable altar stone was started so that chaplains could celebrate Mass for the armies they accompanied.

I am told by someone who should know that Assyrians have a wooden tablet used on the altar.  Its not called a tablitha, but something else, although tablitha would describe it, he said.  This was relayed to me by Fr. Ephrem, who ran the East Meets East blog.

Therr is also much evidence of Assyrian denial of churches to the opposing party; the Assyrian Nestorian Church of the East overlaps the Syriac Orthodox Church in all of its historic territories except Palestine, Damascus and Lebanon, and there is much evidence of a bitter rivalry between the two churches, particularly those in India which both used the East Syriac Rite.

That said, your theory as to the origin of these devices is interesting and compelling.

I recently watched an Assyrian Liturgy with an ordination of a bishop and unless the tablet is set into a recess in the altar there was none.  In fact they didn't use and iliton/corporal either.  The patens and chalices were just laid on the altar which had a simple altar cloth and the vessels were covered with one large veil.

Or they use the tablitha in the Coptic manner, as a portable altar, and don't require it on a consecrated altar during the liturgy (I can't remember what the rule was regarding that). 

Fun fact: every Assyrian altar is required by their rubrics to contain an icon of our Lord, but virtually none have one due to historical reasons.   Fr. Ephrem is one of just a few priests pushing to remedy that; at the new Assyrian modesto in Fresno, I think they installed an Icon Not Made by Hands on their altar.   There is a popular assumption of iconoclasm in the Assyrian church which is contrary to their official doctrine, but the result of people praying in iconoless churches for too long.

I have not visited the Modesto Monastery in person, but photos and videos from the chapel do not show an Icon anywhere near the altar. The Ancient Church of the East Parish in Modesto has an Icon of the Virgin and Child in the back of the church where the candles are lit. The village churches in Iran all have Holy Pictures and Icons in them. Hopefully the recovery of sacred art in the Church of the East will increase in the future.
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2017, 03:55:01 PM »
The antimension, tablitho, maqta, gorbura all seem to have come about because one party would have control of a church and deny its use to the other party. Thus a small portable cloth or wood tablet could be used on top of an ordinary table in a home, a cave, the woods, etc.  Once the opposing parties each had their own churches the need was no longer there but the tradition continued.  so both the altar is consecrated as it always had and the anti-altar was consecrated as well.  Note two traditions that were never denied their churches by an opposing party do not have this tradition, the Roman and Assyrian.  The Ethiopians also weren't forced out by another party but do use the tabot.  I would guess they adopted the practice from the Copts but gave it a different meaning.  The Roman use of the portable altar stone was started so that chaplains could celebrate Mass for the armies they accompanied.

I am told by someone who should know that Assyrians have a wooden tablet used on the altar.  Its not called a tablitha, but something else, although tablitha would describe it, he said.  This was relayed to me by Fr. Ephrem, who ran the East Meets East blog.

Therr is also much evidence of Assyrian denial of churches to the opposing party; the Assyrian Nestorian Church of the East overlaps the Syriac Orthodox Church in all of its historic territories except Palestine, Damascus and Lebanon, and there is much evidence of a bitter rivalry between the two churches, particularly those in India which both used the East Syriac Rite.

That said, your theory as to the origin of these devices is interesting and compelling.

I recently watched an Assyrian Liturgy with an ordination of a bishop and unless the tablet is set into a recess in the altar there was none.  In fact they didn't use and iliton/corporal either.  The patens and chalices were just laid on the altar which had a simple altar cloth and the vessels were covered with one large veil.

Or they use the tablitha in the Coptic manner, as a portable altar, and don't require it on a consecrated altar during the liturgy (I can't remember what the rule was regarding that). 

Fun fact: every Assyrian altar is required by their rubrics to contain an icon of our Lord, but virtually none have one due to historical reasons.   Fr. Ephrem is one of just a few priests pushing to remedy that; at the new Assyrian modesto in Fresno, I think they installed an Icon Not Made by Hands on their altar.   There is a popular assumption of iconoclasm in the Assyrian church which is contrary to their official doctrine, but the result of people praying in iconoless churches for too long.

I have not visited the Modesto Monastery in person, but photos and videos from the chapel do not show an Icon anywhere near the altar. The Ancient Church of the East Parish in Modesto has an Icon of the Virgin and Child in the back of the church where the candles are lit. The village churches in Iran all have Holy Pictures and Icons in them. Hopefully the recovery of sacred art in the Church of the East will increase in the future.

+1

A few members apparently fell into the misconception that the Church of the East is iconoclastic, but they are not.  They're not even really strictly speaking Nestorian; I found the joint Christological statement between their church and yours to be entirely satisfactory.  It also mirrors the joint statement between my church and yours.  Some people argue the RCC has engaged in casuistry and word play to attempt to reconcile the three apparently contradictory positions, but I don't think that is the case.  The Christology of Mar Babai is not, in my opinion, as expressive or conducive to the Gospel message as the OO Christology, but it avoids the extremes of Nestorianism (which we do see alive and well in ostensibly Chalcedonian Calvinist churches).
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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2017, 04:08:08 PM »
Actually they're quite Nestorian and not embarrassed by it at all, if the interview several years ago of their spiritual head, in exile here in the U.S., is any indication.
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2017, 04:41:02 PM »
It's rather, the Maronite liturgy, or the abuses of it which have become de rigeur in the US, represent what I fear could happen to the Syriac Orthodox liturgy if we were to become lax on matters of ceremony.  Right now, my archdiocese is already taking more shortcuts than I am comfortable with (for example, by modifying the Anaphora of Mar Bar Salibi to include the consecratory parts of the Anaphora of St. James, in order to avoid using the latter when it is canonically required, and thus, in order to shorten the services and avoid the costs of printing two sets of service books).

If that's the main complaint, then you don't know a tenth of the laxity in your archdiocese.  ^This isn't as big a deal as you're making it.

Its not my biggest gripe.  Some of our parishes have keyboards.  None have vespers except in Lent and Holy Week.

What is your biggest gripe? 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2017, 04:43:11 PM »
The antimension, tablitho, maqta, gorbura all seem to have come about because one party would have control of a church and deny its use to the other party. Thus a small portable cloth or wood tablet could be used on top of an ordinary table in a home, a cave, the woods, etc.  Once the opposing parties each had their own churches the need was no longer there but the tradition continued.  so both the altar is consecrated as it always had and the anti-altar was consecrated as well.  Note two traditions that were never denied their churches by an opposing party do not have this tradition, the Roman and Assyrian.  The Ethiopians also weren't forced out by another party but do use the tabot.  I would guess they adopted the practice from the Copts but gave it a different meaning.  The Roman use of the portable altar stone was started so that chaplains could celebrate Mass for the armies they accompanied.

I am told by someone who should know that Assyrians have a wooden tablet used on the altar.  Its not called a tablitha, but something else, although tablitha would describe it, he said.  This was relayed to me by Fr. Ephrem, who ran the East Meets East blog.

Therr is also much evidence of Assyrian denial of churches to the opposing party; the Assyrian Nestorian Church of the East overlaps the Syriac Orthodox Church in all of its historic territories except Palestine, Damascus and Lebanon, and there is much evidence of a bitter rivalry between the two churches, particularly those in India which both used the East Syriac Rite.

That said, your theory as to the origin of these devices is interesting and compelling.

I recently watched an Assyrian Liturgy with an ordination of a bishop and unless the tablet is set into a recess in the altar there was none.  In fact they didn't use and iliton/corporal either.  The patens and chalices were just laid on the altar which had a simple altar cloth and the vessels were covered with one large veil.

In our tradition, having a recess in the altar for the tablitho is not required, and most do not have one, but some do, enough to warrant an honourable mention in any decent "Rubrics" class...so that is a possibility.   
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 04:43:34 PM by Mor Ephrem »
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2017, 04:44:00 PM »
The antimension, tablitho, maqta, gorbura all seem to have come about because one party would have control of a church and deny its use to the other party. Thus a small portable cloth or wood tablet could be used on top of an ordinary table in a home, a cave, the woods, etc.  Once the opposing parties each had their own churches the need was no longer there but the tradition continued.  so both the altar is consecrated as it always had and the anti-altar was consecrated as well.  Note two traditions that were never denied their churches by an opposing party do not have this tradition, the Roman and Assyrian.  The Ethiopians also weren't forced out by another party but do use the tabot.  I would guess they adopted the practice from the Copts but gave it a different meaning.  The Roman use of the portable altar stone was started so that chaplains could celebrate Mass for the armies they accompanied.

I am told by someone who should know that Assyrians have a wooden tablet used on the altar.  Its not called a tablitha, but something else, although tablitha would describe it, he said.  This was relayed to me by Fr. Ephrem, who ran the East Meets East blog.

Therr is also much evidence of Assyrian denial of churches to the opposing party; the Assyrian Nestorian Church of the East overlaps the Syriac Orthodox Church in all of its historic territories except Palestine, Damascus and Lebanon, and there is much evidence of a bitter rivalry between the two churches, particularly those in India which both used the East Syriac Rite.

That said, your theory as to the origin of these devices is interesting and compelling.

It seems utterly uncompelling to me.
Why?

+1
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2017, 04:53:09 PM »
Actually they're quite Nestorian and not embarrassed by it at all, if the interview several years ago of their spiritual head, in exile here in the U.S., is any indication.

Please supply a link. The late Mar Dinkha IV rarely granted interviews. I know for a fact he distanced the church from Nestorius in his enthronement address.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2017, 06:00:02 PM »
Video of a consecration of an Assyrian altar.  They do place a stiffened iliton in the center after the altar cloth is placed.

https://youtu.be/ydap97Rugns
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2017, 06:26:40 PM »
Oh, how I hate liturgical plastic.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2017, 06:32:34 PM »
Oh, how I hate liturgical plastic.

Yes, never seen that before.  I guess that is to seal in the Chrism used to anoint the altar?

Yes. This was done in the Los Angeles church as well. It is invisible once the Altar is covered.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 06:50:06 PM by Brigidsboy »
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2017, 06:38:54 PM »
Oh, how I hate liturgical plastic.

Yes, never seen that before.  I guess that is to seal in the Chrism used to anoint the altar?

I just assumed it was to protect linens...at least I hope so.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2017, 08:01:05 PM »
Oh, how I hate liturgical plastic.

Yes, never seen that before.  I guess that is to seal in the Chrism used to anoint the altar?

I just assumed it was to protect linens...at least I hope so.

To keep the oil on the altar permanently and to protect the linens.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2017, 08:03:22 PM »
Oh, how I hate liturgical plastic.

Yes, never seen that before.  I guess that is to seal in the Chrism used to anoint the altar?

I just assumed it was to protect linens...at least I hope so.

To keep the oil on the altar permanently and to protect the linens.

Is glass not an option?
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2017, 08:10:49 PM »
Oh, how I hate liturgical plastic.

Yes, never seen that before.  I guess that is to seal in the Chrism used to anoint the altar?

Not sure. There must be a reason.

I just assumed it was to protect linens...at least I hope so.




Is glass not an option?


To keep the oil on the altar permanently and to protect the linens.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 10:08:09 PM by Brigidsboy »
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2017, 08:21:12 PM »
Oh, how I hate liturgical plastic.

Yes, never seen that before.  I guess that is to seal in the Chrism used to anoint the altar?

I just assumed it was to protect linens...at least I hope so.

To keep the oil on the altar permanently and to protect the linens.

Since they used red duct tape to seal it to the altar I figured it wouldn't be removed.
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2017, 10:06:13 PM »
It's actually a red ribbon, such as is put around a child at his/her baptism. The service book likens the anointing of the altar to a baptismal service.
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2017, 08:09:50 AM »
Were you a member of the Assyrian Church at some point?
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2017, 10:19:33 AM »
Were you a member of the Assyrian Church at some point?

I live near one of the largest parishes of the Church of the East in California. I have come to know them quite well.
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2017, 12:02:48 PM »
Oh, how I hate liturgical plastic.

Yes, never seen that before.  I guess that is to seal in the Chrism used to anoint the altar?

Not sure. There must be a reason.

I just assumed it was to protect linens...at least I hope so.




Is glass not an option?


To keep the oil on the altar permanently and to protect the linens.

Interesting.  Do you know what they used for this purpose before plastic? 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2017, 02:56:38 PM »
According to everything I have read the church was reduced to extreme poverty in the decades leading up to the Genocide of 1915. It is only since the mid XX Century that they have been financially prosperous enough to build what we would consider proper church buildings. What would have been used at the time of the compilation of the service books might have been similar to the Latin cerecloth, a fabric heavily coated with wax to resist moisture.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 02:56:51 PM by Brigidsboy »
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2017, 10:48:36 AM »
According to everything I have read the church was reduced to extreme poverty in the decades leading up to the Genocide of 1915. It is only since the mid XX Century that they have been financially prosperous enough to build what we would consider proper church buildings. What would have been used at the time of the compilation of the service books might have been similar to the Latin cerecloth, a fabric heavily coated with wax to resist moisture.

I like you.  I like you a lot... 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Alpha60

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2017, 07:18:01 AM »
According to everything I have read the church was reduced to extreme poverty in the decades leading up to the Genocide of 1915. It is only since the mid XX Century that they have been financially prosperous enough to build what we would consider proper church buildings. What would have been used at the time of the compilation of the service books might have been similar to the Latin cerecloth, a fabric heavily coated with wax to resist moisture.

This is very interesting.

I have a book on the history of the Assyrian church, which also details the genocide, a reprint of a 1915 original, and it documents the extreme poverty of the Church of the East at that time.  According to it, there was an Anglican missionary society that developed a special friendship with the Church of the East, and in England, funds were raised by the altar guilds at various churches, which were used to donate vestments and paraments.

To this day, Assyrian priests usually wear a Latin-style cope as their main vestment (although a few, like Fr. Ephrem of East Meets East, buy vestments from Pulickal Brothers in India, identical to Syriac Orthodox vestments except in those areas where the tradition differs).

Almost all Assyrian deacons seem to wear a standard stole, yellow with red crosses on it; I imagine this is produced specifically for the church along with a few other distinctive vestments such as the caps worn by their bishops.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2017, 01:23:22 PM »
To this day, Assyrian priests usually wear a Latin-style cope as their main vestment (although a few, like Fr. Ephrem of East Meets East, buy vestments from Pulickal Brothers in India, identical to Syriac Orthodox vestments except in those areas where the tradition differs).

They're not very different. 

Quote
Almost all Assyrian deacons seem to wear a standard stole, yellow with red crosses on it; I imagine this is produced specifically for the church along with a few other distinctive vestments such as the caps worn by their bishops.

How do you collect vestments and not know that that's a fairly common galloon?  You can buy yards and yards of it at Lalame.  It's probably the easiest thing to turn into a stole.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #62 on: July 30, 2017, 01:46:17 PM »
To this day, Assyrian priests usually wear a Latin-style cope as their main vestment (although a few, like Fr. Ephrem of East Meets East, buy vestments from Pulickal Brothers in India, identical to Syriac Orthodox vestments except in those areas where the tradition differs).

They're not very different. 

Quote
Almost all Assyrian deacons seem to wear a standard stole, yellow with red crosses on it; I imagine this is produced specifically for the church along with a few other distinctive vestments such as the caps worn by their bishops.

How do you collect vestments and not know that that's a fairly common galloon?  You can buy yards and yards of it at Lalame.  It's probably the easiest thing to turn into a stole.

Exactly! By the way, I have seen all kinds of Deacon stoles in different Assyrian Churches. The yellow galloons are fast disappearing from many parishes.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 01:47:02 PM by Brigidsboy »
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Offline augustin717

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #63 on: July 30, 2017, 02:31:25 PM »
According to everything I have read the church was reduced to extreme poverty in the decades leading up to the Genocide of 1915. It is only since the mid XX Century that they have been financially prosperous enough to build what we would consider proper church buildings. What would have been used at the time of the compilation of the service books might have been similar to the Latin cerecloth, a fabric heavily coated with wax to resist moisture.

This is very interesting.

I have a book on the history of the Assyrian church, which also details the genocide, a reprint of a 1915 original, and it documents the extreme poverty of the Church of the East at that time.  According to it, there was an Anglican missionary society that developed a special friendship with the Church of the East, and in England, funds were raised by the altar guilds at various churches, which were used to donate vestments and paraments.

To this day, Assyrian priests usually wear a Latin-style cope as their main vestment (although a few, like Fr. Ephrem of East Meets East, buy vestments from Pulickal Brothers in India, identical to Syriac Orthodox vestments except in those areas where the tradition differs).

Almost all Assyrian deacons seem to wear a standard stole, yellow with red crosses on it; I imagine this is produced specifically for the church along with a few other distinctive vestments such as the caps worn by their bishops.
I hate to compete with you in liturgical geekery but at least in Chicago there is a parish where the priest would don on occasion at least -only been there sporadically when parents used to live close by-Byzantine vestments.
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #64 on: July 30, 2017, 02:37:59 PM »
To this day, Assyrian priests usually wear a Latin-style cope as their main vestment (although a few, like Fr. Ephrem of East Meets East, buy vestments from Pulickal Brothers in India, identical to Syriac Orthodox vestments except in those areas where the tradition differs).

They're not very different. 

Quote
Almost all Assyrian deacons seem to wear a standard stole, yellow with red crosses on it; I imagine this is produced specifically for the church along with a few other distinctive vestments such as the caps worn by their bishops.

How do you collect vestments and not know that that's a fairly common galloon?  You can buy yards and yards of it at Lalame.  It's probably the easiest thing to turn into a stole.

I just buy what looks good, is presently lacking and fits the size of the priest I'm donating it to.  Most of the vestments I've bought have been Athonite-style vestments custom-tailored for priests in EO parishes, although I also purchased a low mass set for a RC parish that I liked, and a cope for an Anglican minister, and a mitre for a Coptic priest (his own mitre was slightly scuffed somehow, like it had a dent on one side).

I know what gallopns are, but I've never bothered to deep dive into the nuances or intricacies thereof.   Again, I just buy what looks good and is needed.

So if a priest I know desires a new blue vestment set for the Marian feasts, I will order one for his height, based on my aesthetic preferences, and donate it (I show it to the priest before I commit).

Sometimes, if I see a beautiful vestment at a good price, I will buy it with a view to donating it later, when a suitable recipient emerges.

I intend to start purchasing gospel book covers due to the large number of parishes which lack beautiful gospel books.  These are slightly less subjective in terms of taste, and many small parishes lack them, either the smaller gilded covers or the larger style with icons of the four evangelists.   I actually have the required equipment to print the pages on good quality paper and attach them, as a result of dabbling in book design a few years back (which is a very enjoyable hobby).

I also once sculpted a cross for the priest of St. Mary's Assyrian Church of the East, designed to be used for veneration, or to hold a flower or candle, to decorate his house or office, on the occasion of their reopening.  I used FIMO as my sculpting material to get the shape of the distinctive Assyrian cross, and then spray painted it with gold-leaf paint, and presented it to him with a hibiscus flower.  It was a gift much appreciated.   I gave it to him at the same liturgy where Mar Dinkha IV was present, where, to my extreme chagrin, I passed out and fell down a flight of stairs, which was rather awkward; fortunately I gave Fr. George the decorative cross well before passing out.

I love the Assyrian church and its people.  On my next visit, there was an elderly Assyrian lady who hugged me for some length of time.  They, like the Syriac, Armenian and Coptic people, are very loving.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #65 on: July 30, 2017, 04:25:13 PM »

Fascinating! Do you have a photograph?


[/quote] I hate to compete with you in liturgical geekery but at least in Chicago there is a parish where the priest would don on occasion at least -only been there sporadically when parents used to live close by-Byzantine vestments.
[/quote]
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 04:25:51 PM by Brigidsboy »
"I don't think I've ever eaten anything Armenian I didn't like.  I even drink my non-Armenian coffee out of a St Nersess Seminary coffee mug because it is better that way." --Mor Ephrem

Offline augustin717

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #66 on: July 30, 2017, 04:38:01 PM »

Fascinating! Do you have a photograph?


I hate to compete with you in liturgical geekery but at least in Chicago there is a parish where the priest would don on occasion at least -only been there sporadically when parents used to live close by-Byzantine vestments.
[/quote]
[/quote] no but I can give you the name of place and priest. This was anyways way before camera phones.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 04:39:54 PM by augustin717 »
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #67 on: July 30, 2017, 07:46:30 PM »
According to everything I have read the church was reduced to extreme poverty in the decades leading up to the Genocide of 1915. It is only since the mid XX Century that they have been financially prosperous enough to build what we would consider proper church buildings. What would have been used at the time of the compilation of the service books might have been similar to the Latin cerecloth, a fabric heavily coated with wax to resist moisture.

I like you.  I like you a lot...

You are very kind!
"I don't think I've ever eaten anything Armenian I didn't like.  I even drink my non-Armenian coffee out of a St Nersess Seminary coffee mug because it is better that way." --Mor Ephrem

Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #68 on: July 30, 2017, 08:28:42 PM »

Fascinating! Do you have a photograph?


I hate to compete with you in liturgical geekery but at least in Chicago there is a parish where the priest would don on occasion at least -only been there sporadically when parents used to live close by-Byzantine vestments.
[/quote] no but I can give you the name of place and priest. This was anyways way before camera phones.
[/quote]

Please do. You can send me a private message.
"I don't think I've ever eaten anything Armenian I didn't like.  I even drink my non-Armenian coffee out of a St Nersess Seminary coffee mug because it is better that way." --Mor Ephrem

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2017, 05:44:52 PM »


How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Alpha60

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2017, 07:24:10 PM »




Beautiful.  I love the bishop's vestments.

The most common color for the trim (what is the word for it?  g-something-ion) on our vestments seems to be red, so I always love seeing other color combinations.  My favorite is white with blue trim.

The most beautiful vestment Ive seen in our church in person is a blue Phaynonwith red trim worn by Fr. Shara at St. Ephrems, and a violet Phayno with red trim worn by a concelebrating priest (this was the Sunday before the Convention in 2013 IIRC).  My favorite vestment Ive seen was a turqoise phayno and hamnikho with orange trim worn by HH Ignatius Zakka Iwas, memoru eternal.

Is he comsecrating one altar and multiple tablithoyo for the parish?  Can a parish have more than one tablitho?
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.