Author Topic: I heard yesterday that the AOC is going retranslate the liturgy in English?  (Read 1497 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline urg8rb8

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 346
  • Faith: Antiochian Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of North America
Anyone know if there is a draft?  I am curious to see if what they are changing. 
"Open my lips, Lord, and my mouth will declare your praise." - Psalm 51:15

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Haven't they done this before?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline urg8rb8

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 346
  • Faith: Antiochian Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of North America
Haven't they done this before?

Possibly but not sure when it was last done.  I hope they don't moderize the English more because it loses something.
"Open my lips, Lord, and my mouth will declare your praise." - Psalm 51:15

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
I hope they don't modernize the English more because it loses something.

I think that ship has sailed. Maybe if the Jordanville translator had managed to be a little more accurate to real Elizabethan English, or had managed to bring out English religious tradition more profoundly, a better argument for archaism could have been made.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,332
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Urg8rb8, where did you hear/ read about this? Any links?

I hope they don't modernize the English more because it loses something.

I think that ship has sailed.

The current Antiochian texts are in the archaic mode and do not rely on Jordanville as far as I can tell. A complete overhaul would probably cause a lot of dissension... not that that has stopped bishops from making pointless changes before.

Quote
Maybe if the Jordanville translator had managed to be a little more accurate to real Elizabethan English, or had managed to bring out English religious tradition more profoundly, a better argument for archaism could have been made.

I doubt any significant number of people noticed or cared about divergences from "real Elizabethan English," whatever that is.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Urg8rb8, where did you hear/ read about this? Any links?

I hope they don't modernize the English more because it loses something.

I think that ship has sailed.

The current Antiochian texts are in the archaic mode and do not rely on Jordanville as far as I can tell. A complete overhaul would probably cause a lot of dissension... not that that has stopped bishops from making pointless changes before.

Good luck. I don't think many new translations are going to be keeping archaisms.

Quote
Quote
Maybe if the Jordanville translator had managed to be a little more accurate to real Elizabethan English, or had managed to bring out English religious tradition more profoundly, a better argument for archaism could have been made.

I doubt any significant number of people noticed or cared about divergences from "real Elizabethan English," whatever that is.

Archaism is quite noticeable to modern worshippers, and I think you must have missed quite a bit of discussion around this topic even right on these boards.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,332
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Archaism is quite noticeable to modern worshippers

I said "divergences from real Elizabethan English." Most Americans are not sufficiently versed in these texts to gauge their authenticity to 16th century conventions. You argued that the use of archaism may have been more justified had the texts been more faithful to this "real Elizabethan English." I find that rather strange.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline urg8rb8

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 346
  • Faith: Antiochian Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of North America
Urg8rb8, where did you hear/ read about this? Any links?

I hope they don't modernize the English more because it loses something.

I think that ship has sailed.

The current Antiochian texts are in the archaic mode and do not rely on Jordanville as far as I can tell. A complete overhaul would probably cause a lot of dissension... not that that has stopped bishops from making pointless changes before.

Quote
Maybe if the Jordanville translator had managed to be a little more accurate to real Elizabethan English, or had managed to bring out English religious tradition more profoundly, a better argument for archaism could have been made.

I doubt any significant number of people noticed or cared about divergences from "real Elizabethan English," whatever that is.

My priest told me two weeks ago that it's in the process of getting changed.
"Open my lips, Lord, and my mouth will declare your praise." - Psalm 51:15

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Archaism is quite noticeable to modern worshippers

I said "divergences from real Elizabethan English." Most Americans are not sufficiently versed in these texts to gauge their authenticity to 16th century conventions. You argued that the use of archaism may have been more justified had the texts been more faithful to this "real Elizabethan English." I find that rather strange.

It's not strange at all -- it's the crux of the dissatisfaction with Jordanville. You don't have to be an expert in gangsta rap to know when someone's posing badly. You don't have to be an expert in Elizabethan English to know when an archaism sticks out like a sore thumb.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline urg8rb8

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 346
  • Faith: Antiochian Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of North America
I hope they don't change "... and on to the ages of ages."
"Open my lips, Lord, and my mouth will declare your praise." - Psalm 51:15

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,332
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Again, the Antiochian texts are not from Jordanville. They come from Hapgood, Nassar, etc. with recent revisions retaining the archaic style. The latest Liturgikon is from 2010. People will be unhappy with overhauls, not because they like archaism per se, but they don't like having to memorize a new set of texts. So I would be surprised if the AOA was proposing the abandonment of archaism.

Archaism is quite noticeable to modern worshippers

I said "divergences from real Elizabethan English." Most Americans are not sufficiently versed in these texts to gauge their authenticity to 16th century conventions. You argued that the use of archaism may have been more justified had the texts been more faithful to this "real Elizabethan English." I find that rather strange.

It's not strange at all -- it's the crux of the dissatisfaction with Jordanville.

Really? And who is expressing this dissatisfaction? If anything, the Jordanville mode appears to be spreading into the OCA, as seen in the latest Saint Tikhon's texts. And if you think the Jordanville archaisms are poorly done, the OCA's mishmash is even worse.

If people complain about archaism, it's typically about archaism in general.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Again, the Antiochian texts are not from Jordanville. They come from Hapgood, Nassar, etc. with recent revisions retaining the archaic style. The latest Liturgikon is from 2010. People will be unhappy with overhauls, not because they like archaism per se, but they don't like having to memorize a new set of texts. So I would be surprised if the AOA was proposing the abandonment of archaism.

Archaism is quite noticeable to modern worshippers

I said "divergences from real Elizabethan English." Most Americans are not sufficiently versed in these texts to gauge their authenticity to 16th century conventions. You argued that the use of archaism may have been more justified had the texts been more faithful to this "real Elizabethan English." I find that rather strange.

It's not strange at all -- it's the crux of the dissatisfaction with Jordanville.

Really? And who is expressing this dissatisfaction? If anything, the Jordanville mode appears to be spreading into the OCA, as seen in the latest Saint Tikhon's texts. And if you think the Jordanville archaisms are poorly done, the OCA's mishmash is even worse.

If people complain about archaism, it's typically about archaism in general.

That can be true too.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,332
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
I hope they don't change "... and on to the ages of ages."

I don't see why anyone would do that. The only jurisdiction that doesn't do "unto the ages of ages", as far as I know, is my own, which instead uses the regrettable "forever and ever."
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
I hope they don't change "... and on to the ages of ages."

I don't see why anyone would do that. The only jurisdiction that doesn't do "unto the ages of ages", as far as I know, is my own, which instead uses the regrettable "forever and ever."

"Forever and ever" is traditional in English Christianity for as long as there's been English.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,332
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
I hope they don't change "... and on to the ages of ages."

I don't see why anyone would do that. The only jurisdiction that doesn't do "unto the ages of ages", as far as I know, is my own, which instead uses the regrettable "forever and ever."

"Forever and ever" is traditional in English Christianity for as long as there's been English.

Why stop there? How about "world without end"?
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
I hope they don't change "... and on to the ages of ages."

I don't see why anyone would do that. The only jurisdiction that doesn't do "unto the ages of ages", as far as I know, is my own, which instead uses the regrettable "forever and ever."

"Forever and ever" is traditional in English Christianity for as long as there's been English.

Why stop there? How about "world without end"?

That's a humanist, specifically Henrician innovation.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,332
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
I hope they don't change "... and on to the ages of ages."

I don't see why anyone would do that. The only jurisdiction that doesn't do "unto the ages of ages", as far as I know, is my own, which instead uses the regrettable "forever and ever."

"Forever and ever" is traditional in English Christianity for as long as there's been English.

Why stop there? How about "world without end"?

That's a humanist, specifically Henrician innovation.

Can you cite prominent instances of "forever and ever" in the Gloria Patri prior to this innovation?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 02:27:07 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
I hope they don't change "... and on to the ages of ages."

I don't see why anyone would do that. The only jurisdiction that doesn't do "unto the ages of ages", as far as I know, is my own, which instead uses the regrettable "forever and ever."

"Forever and ever" is traditional in English Christianity for as long as there's been English.

Why stop there? How about "world without end"?

That's a humanist, specifically Henrician innovation.

Can you cite prominent instances of "forever and ever" in the Gloria Patri prior to this innovation?

Can you cite instances where the English Church of any age has translated the phrase "unto ages of ages"?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline urg8rb8

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 346
  • Faith: Antiochian Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of North America
I hope they don't change "... and on to the ages of ages."

I don't see why anyone would do that. The only jurisdiction that doesn't do "unto the ages of ages", as far as I know, is my own, which instead uses the regrettable "forever and ever."

"Forever and ever" is traditional in English Christianity for as long as there's been English.

The Melkite Church uses "forever and ever".  Not sure how long so it was changed.  But "unto the ages of ages" sounds so awesome.
"Open my lips, Lord, and my mouth will declare your praise." - Psalm 51:15

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,332
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
I suppose Wycliffe's "Into the worlds of worlds" would also be acceptable to me.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
I suppose Wycliffe's "Into the worlds of worlds" would also be acceptable to me.

I don't think one translator doing a rather provisional work outweighs the tradition of the church. However, "in worlds of worlds" sure isn't "unto ages of ages."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,332
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
I hope they don't change "... and on to the ages of ages."

I don't see why anyone would do that. The only jurisdiction that doesn't do "unto the ages of ages", as far as I know, is my own, which instead uses the regrettable "forever and ever."

"Forever and ever" is traditional in English Christianity for as long as there's been English.

Why stop there? How about "world without end"?

That's a humanist, specifically Henrician innovation.

Can you cite prominent instances of "forever and ever" in the Gloria Patri prior to this innovation?

Can you cite instances where the English Church of any age has translated the phrase "unto ages of ages"?

My question was not rhetorical. You claimed "forever and ever" was around as long as the English language itself. Can you support that claim? No need to turn every discussion into a pee-pee match, dear boy.

As for ages of ages, "worlds of worlds" is basically the same thing (keeping in mind that "world" had the connotation of "age" in pre-modern English). All the same, I don't advocate "ages of ages" because it has long English pedigree but just because it's richer and closer to the Greek and Latin texts.

Saint Maximus the Confessor and other theologians spend some time expounding on "ages" and "ages of ages",  and clearly think this particular wording has theological significance.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 02:42:21 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Lets get the guy who did the Message do it. It would end with ...forever, yo!
God bless!

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
I hope they don't change "... and on to the ages of ages."

I don't see why anyone would do that. The only jurisdiction that doesn't do "unto the ages of ages", as far as I know, is my own, which instead uses the regrettable "forever and ever."

"Forever and ever" is traditional in English Christianity for as long as there's been English.

Why stop there? How about "world without end"?

That's a humanist, specifically Henrician innovation.

Can you cite prominent instances of "forever and ever" in the Gloria Patri prior to this innovation?

Can you cite instances where the English Church of any age has translated the phrase "unto ages of ages"?

My question was not rhetorical. You claimed "forever and ever" was around as long as the English language itself. Can you support that claim? No need to turn every discussion into a pee-pee match, dear boy.

Thank you for yielding, altho you could have just said, "No, you're right, I can't."

If something is found in Tyndale and Douay-Rheims, then it's safe to say it wasn't an innovation. Further, we know specifically that "world without end" was the innovation, as we have recorded history from Henry's time to that effect. With the exception of Wycliffe, and "world without end" whose provenance we can easily trace, there are no exceptions to "forever and ever" in the tradtional English of the church.

Quote
As for ages of ages, "worlds of worlds" is basically the same thing (keeping in mind that "world" had the connotation of "age" in pre-modern English).

No, that's not it. The reason for "worlds of worlds" has nothing to do with English but with an attraction on Wycliffe's part to the literal Latin, which can have a meaning of endless space.

Quote
All the same, I don't advocate "ages of ages" because it has long English pedigree but just because it's richer and closer to the Greek and Latin texts.

This admission of yours could have saved us so much time.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline urg8rb8

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 346
  • Faith: Antiochian Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of North America
I suppose Wycliffe's "Into the worlds of worlds" would also be acceptable to me.

I don't think one translator doing a rather provisional work outweighs the tradition of the church. However, "in worlds of worlds" sure isn't "unto ages of ages."

"In worlds of worlds" sounds very strange.  Does worlds mean the same as ages?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 02:50:58 PM by urg8rb8 »
"Open my lips, Lord, and my mouth will declare your praise." - Psalm 51:15

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,332
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Thank you for yielding, altho you could have just said, "No, you're right, I can't."

If something is found in Tyndale and Douay-Rheims, then it's safe to say it wasn't an innovation. Further, we know specifically that "world without end" was the innovation, as we have recorded history from Henry's time to that effect. With the exception of Wycliffe, and "world without end" whose provenance we can easily trace, there are no exceptions to "forever and ever" in the tradtional English of the church.

So in other words, you can't find any instances of "forever and ever" and have nothing left but bluster and condescension. Good to know.

Quote
No, that's not it. The reason for "worlds of worlds" has nothing to do with English but with an attraction on Wycliffe's part to the literal Latin, which can have a meaning of endless space.

On the contrary, Wycliffe's use of "world" has precedents in Old English.


Quote
Quote
All the same, I don't advocate "ages of ages" because it has long English pedigree but just because it's richer and closer to the Greek and Latin texts.

This admission of yours could have saved us so much time.

Rather, your constant search for rancor, drama, and disagreements where none actually exist wastes a lot of your time and prevents you from interacting meaningfully with your fellow man.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 02:52:18 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
I suppose Wycliffe's "Into the worlds of worlds" would also be acceptable to me.

I don't think one translator doing a rather provisional work outweighs the tradition of the church. However, "in worlds of worlds" sure isn't "unto ages of ages."

"In worlds of worlds" sounds very strange.  Does worlds mean the same as ages?

No. But "in secula seculorum" can. And Wycliffe's work is strange overall.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Thank you for yielding, altho you could have just said, "No, you're right, I can't."

If something is found in Tyndale and Douay-Rheims, then it's safe to say it wasn't an innovation. Further, we know specifically that "world without end" was the innovation, as we have recorded history from Henry's time to that effect. With the exception of Wycliffe, and "world without end" whose provenance we can easily trace, there are no exceptions to "forever and ever" in the tradtional English of the church.

So in other words, you can't find any instances of "forever and ever" and have nothing left but bluster and condescension. Good to know.

All instances but the specific exceptions we've discussed are of "for ever and ever."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,332
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Thank you for yielding, altho you could have just said, "No, you're right, I can't."

If something is found in Tyndale and Douay-Rheims, then it's safe to say it wasn't an innovation. Further, we know specifically that "world without end" was the innovation, as we have recorded history from Henry's time to that effect. With the exception of Wycliffe, and "world without end" whose provenance we can easily trace, there are no exceptions to "forever and ever" in the tradtional English of the church.

So in other words, you can't find any instances of "forever and ever" and have nothing left but bluster and condescension. Good to know.

All instances but the specific exceptions we've discussed are of "for ever and ever."

In which case, you should have no difficulty producing examples of "forever and ever" in the Gloria Patri prior to the introduction of "world without end."
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Thank you for yielding, altho you could have just said, "No, you're right, I can't."

If something is found in Tyndale and Douay-Rheims, then it's safe to say it wasn't an innovation. Further, we know specifically that "world without end" was the innovation, as we have recorded history from Henry's time to that effect. With the exception of Wycliffe, and "world without end" whose provenance we can easily trace, there are no exceptions to "forever and ever" in the tradtional English of the church.

So in other words, you can't find any instances of "forever and ever" and have nothing left but bluster and condescension. Good to know.

All instances but the specific exceptions we've discussed are of "for ever and ever."

In which case, you should have no difficulty producing examples of "forever and ever" in the Gloria Patri prior to the introduction of "world without end."

Tyndale
In the Douay-Rhiems
In the Authorized Version of course

And the Bishop's, the Coverdale, Geneva, etc. etc.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,332
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Thank you for yielding, altho you could have just said, "No, you're right, I can't."

If something is found in Tyndale and Douay-Rheims, then it's safe to say it wasn't an innovation. Further, we know specifically that "world without end" was the innovation, as we have recorded history from Henry's time to that effect. With the exception of Wycliffe, and "world without end" whose provenance we can easily trace, there are no exceptions to "forever and ever" in the tradtional English of the church.

So in other words, you can't find any instances of "forever and ever" and have nothing left but bluster and condescension. Good to know.

All instances but the specific exceptions we've discussed are of "for ever and ever."

In which case, you should have no difficulty producing examples of "forever and ever" in the Gloria Patri prior to the introduction of "world without end."

Tyndale
In the Douay-Rhiems
In the Authorized Version of course

And the Bishop's, the Coverdale, Geneva, etc. etc.

If you're going to reach like that, then the Old English "worulda a butan ende" predates all of these. Try again?
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Thank you for yielding, altho you could have just said, "No, you're right, I can't."

If something is found in Tyndale and Douay-Rheims, then it's safe to say it wasn't an innovation. Further, we know specifically that "world without end" was the innovation, as we have recorded history from Henry's time to that effect. With the exception of Wycliffe, and "world without end" whose provenance we can easily trace, there are no exceptions to "forever and ever" in the tradtional English of the church.

So in other words, you can't find any instances of "forever and ever" and have nothing left but bluster and condescension. Good to know.

All instances but the specific exceptions we've discussed are of "for ever and ever."

In which case, you should have no difficulty producing examples of "forever and ever" in the Gloria Patri prior to the introduction of "world without end."

Tyndale
In the Douay-Rhiems
In the Authorized Version of course

And the Bishop's, the Coverdale, Geneva, etc. etc.

If you're going to reach like that, then the Old English "worulda a butan ende" predates all of these. Try again?

I see you found the Anglican apologists' conjecture forum.

Old English is a different language from English, a dialect of Low German. Just give it up.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,332
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Thank you for yielding, altho you could have just said, "No, you're right, I can't."

If something is found in Tyndale and Douay-Rheims, then it's safe to say it wasn't an innovation. Further, we know specifically that "world without end" was the innovation, as we have recorded history from Henry's time to that effect. With the exception of Wycliffe, and "world without end" whose provenance we can easily trace, there are no exceptions to "forever and ever" in the tradtional English of the church.

So in other words, you can't find any instances of "forever and ever" and have nothing left but bluster and condescension. Good to know.

All instances but the specific exceptions we've discussed are of "for ever and ever."

In which case, you should have no difficulty producing examples of "forever and ever" in the Gloria Patri prior to the introduction of "world without end."

Tyndale
In the Douay-Rhiems
In the Authorized Version of course

And the Bishop's, the Coverdale, Geneva, etc. etc.

If you're going to reach like that, then the Old English "worulda a butan ende" predates all of these. Try again?

I see you found the Anglican apologists' conjecture forum.

Old English is a different language from English, a dialect of Low German. Just give it up.

You seem nice.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Thank you for yielding, altho you could have just said, "No, you're right, I can't."

If something is found in Tyndale and Douay-Rheims, then it's safe to say it wasn't an innovation. Further, we know specifically that "world without end" was the innovation, as we have recorded history from Henry's time to that effect. With the exception of Wycliffe, and "world without end" whose provenance we can easily trace, there are no exceptions to "forever and ever" in the tradtional English of the church.

So in other words, you can't find any instances of "forever and ever" and have nothing left but bluster and condescension. Good to know.

All instances but the specific exceptions we've discussed are of "for ever and ever."

In which case, you should have no difficulty producing examples of "forever and ever" in the Gloria Patri prior to the introduction of "world without end."

Tyndale
In the Douay-Rhiems
In the Authorized Version of course

And the Bishop's, the Coverdale, Geneva, etc. etc.

If you're going to reach like that, then the Old English "worulda a butan ende" predates all of these. Try again?

I see you found the Anglican apologists' conjecture forum.

Old English is a different language from English, a dialect of Low German. Just give it up.

You seem nice.

Thank you, but it's comparative.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,731
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
I can say that English translations of the Roman Rite Liturgy of the Hours aren't allowed to use " world without end."
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
I can say that English translations of the Roman Rite Liturgy of the Hours aren't allowed to use " world without end."

I've often questioned why Western Rite means Anglican, rather than the English church that, tho so small, remained so doughtily faithful to Rome. I understand the emotional reasoning, but I don't know that profound or even technical reasons have been as forthcoming.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 05:22:46 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Faithseeker

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 34
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
I thought the new "revision" AOC texts had already been completed?

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,197
Archaism is quite noticeable to modern worshippers

I said "divergences from real Elizabethan English." Most Americans are not sufficiently versed in these texts to gauge their authenticity to 16th century conventions. You argued that the use of archaism may have been more justified had the texts been more faithful to this "real Elizabethan English." I find that rather strange.

It's not strange at all -- it's the crux of the dissatisfaction with Jordanville. You don't have to be an expert in gangsta rap to know when someone's posing badly. You don't have to be an expert in Elizabethan English to know when an archaism sticks out like a sore thumb.
How and where did Jordanville become the standard Orthodox false archaism?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 448
  • Māran etraḥam 'lay!
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,197
I hope they don't change "... and on to the ages of ages."

I don't see why anyone would do that. The only jurisdiction that doesn't do "unto the ages of ages", as far as I know, is my own, which instead uses the regrettable "forever and ever."

"Forever and ever" is traditional in English Christianity for as long as there's been English.
Old English said "On worulda woruld"

Can you cite instances where the English Church of any age has translated the phrase "unto ages of ages"?
Yep.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 06:09:54 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,197
I suppose Wycliffe's "Into the worlds of worlds" would also be acceptable to me.

I don't think one translator doing a rather provisional work outweighs the tradition of the church. However, "in worlds of worlds" sure isn't "unto ages of ages."

"In worlds of worlds" sounds very strange.  Does worlds mean the same as ages?
it is the meaning of the original Aramaic.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
I hope they don't change "... and on to the ages of ages."

I don't see why anyone would do that. The only jurisdiction that doesn't do "unto the ages of ages", as far as I know, is my own, which instead uses the regrettable "forever and ever."

"Forever and ever" is traditional in English Christianity for as long as there's been English.
Old English said "On worulda woruld"

Anglo-Saxon was a dialect of Low German. I'd be surprised if you find any specifically Old English vocabulary in English Christianity. "For ever" and variants is found throughout the English Christian tradition. However, if you guys want to go back to "in yeoruld yeorulde" then say that.

Quote
Can you cite instances where the English Church of any age has translated the phrase "unto ages of ages"?
Yep.

Then please do.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
For you guys who may be mentally brushing away my "Old English isn't the same language as English" because you think Old English means old-timey English, here's an example that comprises the phrase in question:

Y ge-bledsad noma megen-drymnes his in ecnisse Y in yeoruld yeorulde Y ge-fylled megen-drymme his all eorde sie sie [transliteration choices my own].
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,332
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Of course, everyone knows middle and modern English were spontaneously generated from a cloud of flying teacups.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Of course, everyone knows middle and modern English were spontaneously generated from a cloud of flying teacups.

Ironic you should choose this particular subject to feign ignorance of English origins, as a great deal of traditional Christian terminology in English is straight from Norman.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 07:19:19 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy