Author Topic: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here  (Read 4286 times)

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #270 on: August 08, 2017, 11:35:02 PM »
It should be noted that the Augsburg Confession, and the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, both affirm the Seven Ecumenical Councils. It would be hard for Melanchthon to do that and still deny the Objective Real Presence. Luther himself believed in the Objective Real Presence, but in his later years, an old, sick, embittered man, he wrote the Smalcald Articles. Though these had a few good things, for the most part, it would have been better had they never seen the light of day. The Church of Sweden wisely accepted them only as an historic document of the Church.

And yes, getting multiple degrees in History requires knowing the history of one of the most powerful nations in the world.

The Seven Ecumenical Councils did not touch on the nature of the Eucharist; this was rather established in the liturgy and the Patristic corpus.   

One can affirm all seven ecumenical councils and be a heretic; I can think of several heretics who fall into that category.  Indeed, my own church has strong objections to the fourth ecumenical council because, without further clarification, it appears to contradict the Third and imply Nestorianism, and it exonerated Ibas, who we regard as a heresiarch, who cleverly anathematized Nestorius while teaching essentially the same doctrine.

Regarding your degrees in history, if you are going to continue to appeal to their authority, you should post images of them; you can of course redact your name and personal information.

Mor Ephrem did not hesitate to post a picture of his MDiv from SVS when challenged.

However, the degrees you have are ultimately meaningless if you are in error; a university degree does not automatically confer infallibility upon its recipient. 
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #271 on: August 08, 2017, 11:39:27 PM »
Posting my degrees would be impossible from a tablet, even if I wanted to do so. And I do not think that giving people personal information in ANY form is a good idea on the Internet. As I indicated, even Wikipedia indicates Prince Vladimir's behaviour. Refer to a standard history of Russia for further information.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #272 on: August 08, 2017, 11:40:50 PM »
Damn battery!

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #273 on: August 08, 2017, 11:41:54 PM »
The Apostle Peter was married, as Scripture attests.

Scripture also does not attest any offspring attributed to that marriage, nor does the tradition of the Church, making it clear that St. Peter and his wife lived in holy chastity.  This is permitted for our bishops.

Indeed, there were no children of any of the 13 Apostles (including Sts. Matthias and Paul), so far as we are aware; this stands in marked contrast to the Old Testament era, in which a hereditary lineage was stressed as being of much greater importance.

Whereas the Jews received grace through inheritance, a divine grace which they forfeited in the manner of Esau by rejecting their Messiah, with the exception of those numerous Jews who joined the Church, whose descendents are in the Syriac Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Assyrian, and other churches of the Levant, those Jews who rejected Christ forfeited their birthright.

Grace is now universally available to everyone, via the Holy Spirit.  And as befits this new covenant, the ordination of bishops is now an act of grace conferred by chirothesia, the laying on of hands, dispensed by the Holy Spirit, which bestows upon the bishops the charismas required to serve in the episcopal office.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #274 on: August 08, 2017, 11:43:46 PM »
Certainly I do not dispute that one can be a heretic whilst upholding the Councils, just as one can be whilst having Bishops. The Scripture says nothing about Peter having or not having children, which means we do not know if he did or not. Paul is believed to have been a widower, status of children or lack thereof again, unknown.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #275 on: August 08, 2017, 11:48:12 PM »
And given the fact that the Orthodox Church of Russia, from her Bishops on down to the Deacons and below, got so far into bed with the Communists during the USSR period that it is not at all funny, should be an indicator that many Bishops have no charisma in the Episcopal office whatsoever.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 11:48:47 PM by Diego »

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #276 on: August 08, 2017, 11:49:39 PM »
Posting my degrees would be impossible from a tablet, even if I wanted to do so. And I do not think that giving people personal information in ANY form is a good idea on the Internet. As I indicated, even Wikipedia indicates Prince Vladimir's behaviour. Refer to a standard history of Russia for further information.

Whereas I have provided citations to my claims, you have failed to do so; indeed, you make recourse to a resource that you have previously deprecated as worthless.  Provide an actual citation, a book or scholarly reference, to back up your claims regarding St. Vladimir the Great, or drop the claim.

You can post your degrees from a tablet; just take a picture of it with the onboard camera, download an image editor to obscure your name and any other details you don't want people to see (the date the degree was awarded and the names of faculty awarding it could hypothetically risk your privacy, but otherwise I can see no danger, since the degree lacks your signature or any personally identifying information other than your name), and then upload it.  If your tablet lacks a camera, in which case it must be rather old and unpleasant, like a first gen iPad, simply photograph the degree with your mobile phone and e-mail it to yourself, open it up on your tablet, redact, upload, et voila.  What is more, you can post the degree in the private forums on OCNet; the site rules strictly prohibit members from leaking the contents of those forums into the public forums.

Otherwise, I simply can't accept your claim to have multiple degrees in history as meaningful or relevant; you might well have such degrees, but without verification and information on how specifically they relate to an understanding of the history of the Orthodox church, they represent an appeal to authority.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #277 on: August 08, 2017, 11:55:24 PM »
Like I said, posting ANY personal information here would just be a sign that I am stupid. As for Wikipedia, I have stated that any decent history of Russia will confirm what I have said. Check your local library or bookstore. Whether you accept my degreed status or not is irrelevant to me, and is more indicative of a personal problem in you.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #278 on: August 08, 2017, 11:56:40 PM »
And given the fact that the Orthodox Church of Russia, from her Bishops on down to the Deacons and below, got so far into bed with the Communists during the USSR period that it is not at all funny, should be an indicator that many Bishops have no charisma in the Episcopal office whatsoever.

The sacraments are effective, as St. Augustine wrote, ex opere operanto, in disputing with the Donatists.  It is the heresy of Donatism and Novatianism to say that the sacraments can only be validly administered by a righteous clergyman.

The bishops of the USSR, even if they did not personally believe, adhered to the liturgy, and maintained the Orthodox doctrine, and thus preserved apostolic succession, because the sacraments are efficacious regardless of the personal merits of whoever is performing them.

Your argument by the way is almost an exact replica of the argument used by the Novatians in rejecting communion with the Catholic church, because some clergy who had denied the faith during the Diocletian persecution, who were repentant, were readmitted to the clerical office.   It is a merciless and rigorous error.

The sacrament of ordination changes the man being ordained fundamentally; a deacon, priest and bishop is blessed by the Holy Spirit with the charisma to celebrate the sacred mysteries, that is to say, the sacraments, of the Orthodox Church.  This is the case even if the ordinand is a hypocrite who does not actually believe in the faith; sacraments performed by him are still valid, as long as he adheres to the correct liturgical forms.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #279 on: August 08, 2017, 11:59:33 PM »
I do not dispute the validity of Russian Orthodox Sacraments during the Soviet period. I am merely stating that the men involved were unrighteous, and are likely in Hell right now in some cases. I have never suggested an invalidity to the Sacraments they celebrated, however unrighteous, and you suggesting that I did is simply a slander on your part, and sinful. I suggest Confession.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 12:00:14 AM by Diego »

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #280 on: August 09, 2017, 12:03:18 AM »
Like I said, posting ANY personal information here would just be a sign that I am stupid. As for Wikipedia, I have stated that any decent history of Russia will confirm what I have said. Check your local library or bookstore. Whether you accept my degreed status or not is irrelevant to me, and is more indicative of a personal problem in you.

Your academic qualifications are irrelevant and an example of a logical fallacy known as an Appeal to Authority unless you can show that they exist and that they specifically relate to the history of the Orthodox Church or indeed the Lutheran Church, as the subject matter of this conversation.

An appeal to authority is a logical fallacy which is essentially the opposite of an ad hominem; arguments should be judged on their own merit, and the qualifications of someone are only relevant to the extent they relate to the argument at hand.

For example, were I to tell you you should convert to Holy Orthodoxy because it is the largest communion next to the Roman Catholic Church, that would be an appeal to authority, because the size of the Orthodox Church is not relevant to its truth claims.  Conversely, an argument made from sacred scripture or Patristics is relevant, because these persons and documents are accepted by both parties as posessing reliable and authoritative information concerning the nature of the Church and the Sacraments.

I simply insist upon a conversation free from logical fallacies.  If avoiding illogical arguments is a personal problem in this strange world through the looking glass I seem to find myself in, in this thread, then it is a personal problem that I can say I am proud to posess; my only regret would be that I do not suffer from it to a greater extent, as my knowledge of logical fallacies is not on a par with that of Mor Ephrem, Cyrillic or Iconodule.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #281 on: August 09, 2017, 12:05:49 AM »
It is hardly an Appeal to Authority to state a fact. I stated the fact that I have degrees. I ALSO stated truthfully that Prince Vladimir was somewhat less than moral about the conversion of the Rus. You have denied this. NEITHER of us has produced a source for our statement. Your point therefore is...?

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #282 on: August 09, 2017, 12:08:53 AM »
Having ALSO obtained a University degree in Philosophy, I suspect I am in a much better position to know what the logical fallacies are than you might be. Whether you accept that statement is not my problem, but speaks of a deeper problem in you, that you should be so suspicious of other people. I suggest a psychiatrist. If you tell me where you live, I am sure I can find some good ones for you.

Your deep suspicion of other people may be a sign of a schizophrenic condition. But again, a psychiatrist is better than I am at determining this.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 12:11:23 AM by Diego »

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #283 on: August 09, 2017, 12:13:10 AM »

I do not dispute the validity of Russian Orthodox Sacraments during the Soviet period. I am merely stating that the men involved were unrighteous, and are likely in Hell right now in some cases. I have never suggested an invalidity to the Sacraments they celebrated, however unrighteous, and you suggesting that I did is simply a slander on your part, and sinful. I suggest Confession.

I suggest carefully reading my replies, and not responding in a knee-jerk or over-rapid manner, if there exists any uncertainty on your part as to what I am talking about, for that is not what your post implied:

And given the fact that the Orthodox Church of Russia, from her Bishops on down to the Deacons and below, got so far into bed with the Communists during the USSR period that it is not at all funny, should be an indicator that many Bishops have no charisma in the Episcopal office whatsoever.

Saying that the bishops have no charisma in the Episcopal office whatsoever, from the perspective of  Orthodox sacramental theology, means that you are denying that the bishops posessed the ability to confer sacramental grace.  I believe my preceding posts were quite clear in explaining that the charisma granted to bishops on their ordination by the Holy Spirit is the ability to celebrate the mysteries, to confect the Eucharist, to provide the Sacraments.   Thus, it was impossible to interpret your post as anything other than a denial of the sacramental validity of the Russian bishops in a Novatian or Donatist manner.

I am prepared to accept that you did not intend to convey Donatism or Novatianism on the basis of not understanding what "charisma" means in the context of Orthodox sacramental theology, but I propose on that basis that you are debating Orthodoxy without having properly researched it, and furthermore, that may not be paying proper attention to my posts. 

Thus I resent the accusation of slander; slander is a serious charge (it is also inaccurate, for written slander is in fact known as libel); I do not libel members of OCNet knowingly and on those occasions when I have written something inaccurate about a member of a negative quality I have apologized profusely for it.

In this case however, there was no libel. 

"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #284 on: August 09, 2017, 12:14:29 AM »
It is hardly an Appeal to Authority to state a fact. I stated the fact that I have degrees. I ALSO stated truthfully that Prince Vladimir was somewhat less than moral about the conversion of the Rus. You have denied this. NEITHER of us has produced a source for our statement. Your point therefore is...?

The burden of proof rests on the individual who introduces a claim into a debate.  This is a well-established principle. 
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #285 on: August 09, 2017, 12:17:09 AM »
You are correct that written slander is libel. But to the extent that we are having what is akin to a conversation, the term I used is accurate enough. However, you have withdrawn the accusations made; ergo, I can accept that no slander or libel was intended.

I introduced a commonly known historical fact. Anybody who has spent ten minutes with a Russian history text designed for a Seventh Grader knows that fact. Denying it  is akin to saying the world is flat when I first assert its roundness. There is no need to introduce proof for commonly known facts. This is ALSO  well established academic principle.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 12:18:41 AM by Diego »

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #286 on: August 09, 2017, 12:21:12 AM »
The Apostle Peter was married, as Scripture attests.

Scripture also does not attest any offspring attributed to that marriage, nor does the tradition of the Church, making it clear that St. Peter and his wife lived in holy chastity.  This is permitted for our bishops.

Indeed, there were no children of any of the 13 Apostles (including Sts. Matthias and Paul), so far as we are aware; this stands in marked contrast to the Old Testament era, in which a hereditary lineage was stressed as being of much greater importance.

Whereas the Jews received grace through inheritance, a divine grace which they forfeited in the manner of Esau by rejecting their Messiah, with the exception of those numerous Jews who joined the Church, whose descendents are in the Syriac Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Assyrian, and other churches of the Levant, those Jews who rejected Christ forfeited their birthright.

Grace is now universally available to everyone, via the Holy Spirit.  And as befits this new covenant, the ordination of bishops is now an act of grace conferred by chirothesia, the laying on of hands, dispensed by the Holy Spirit, which bestows upon the bishops the charismas required to serve in the episcopal office.
St Petronilla, daughter of St Peter, who's chapel and relics are in St Peter's Basilica.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #287 on: August 09, 2017, 12:22:16 AM »
The Apostle Peter was married, as Scripture attests.

Scripture also does not attest any offspring attributed to that marriage, nor does the tradition of the Church, making it clear that St. Peter and his wife lived in holy chastity.  This is permitted for our bishops.

Indeed, there were no children of any of the 13 Apostles (including Sts. Matthias and Paul), so far as we are aware; this stands in marked contrast to the Old Testament era, in which a hereditary lineage was stressed as being of much greater importance.

Whereas the Jews received grace through inheritance, a divine grace which they forfeited in the manner of Esau by rejecting their Messiah, with the exception of those numerous Jews who joined the Church, whose descendents are in the Syriac Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Assyrian, and other churches of the Levant, those Jews who rejected Christ forfeited their birthright.

Grace is now universally available to everyone, via the Holy Spirit.  And as befits this new covenant, the ordination of bishops is now an act of grace conferred by chirothesia, the laying on of hands, dispensed by the Holy Spirit, which bestows upon the bishops the charismas required to serve in the episcopal office.
St Petronilla, daughter of St Peter, who's chapel and relics are in St Peter's Basilica.

WOW! I DID NOT know this little gem! Thank you for introducing it.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #288 on: August 09, 2017, 12:22:26 AM »
The fact that you believe that man may begin to turn to God of his own good will is what pushes you to the verge of Pelagianism. Christ must act upon us first. From that point onward, I would certainly accept that one's own free will can begin to act.

I have never stated that; I have explicitly stated several times that the Orthodox soteriology requires the  divine grace of the Holy Spirit to "act upon" a man, to stir him to repentance, in order for him to be able to discern the truth and convert to the holy Catholic church.

This post strongly suggests to me that you are not taking the time to fully read my responses.  If you want me to continue to dialogue with you on this subject, you need to read my responses, and not repeatedly raise points which have already been addressed, for example, your erroneous belief that the Orthodox believe that someone, of their own volition, could opt to convert, without the grace of the Holy Spirit enabling them to make such a decision.

This is not our faith; we are not Pelagians or Semi-Pelagians, and we do not believe what you have now falsely claimed we believe about five or six times now.

Frankly, in the manner of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople who with the patience of Job corresponded with Lutheran theologians, I am increasingly growing weary of this discussion.  I need to see a good-faith effort from you to respond to the points raised by Mor Ephrem, Porter, myself, and other members, before I proceed in this debate, because otherwise it is waste of time.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #289 on: August 09, 2017, 12:29:14 AM »
The fact that you believe that man may begin to turn to God of his own good will is what pushes you to the verge of Pelagianism. Christ must act upon us first. From that point onward, I would certainly accept that one's own free will can begin to act.

I have never stated that; I have explicitly stated several times that the Orthodox soteriology requires the  divine grace of the Holy Spirit to "act upon" a man, to stir him to repentance, in order for him to be able to discern the truth and convert to the holy Catholic church.

This post strongly suggests to me that you are not taking the time to fully read my responses.  If you want me to continue to dialogue with you on this subject, you need to read my responses, and not repeatedly raise points which have already been addressed, for example, your erroneous belief that the Orthodox believe that someone, of their own volition, could opt to convert, without the grace of the Holy Spirit enabling them to make such a decision.

This is not our faith; we are not Pelagians or Semi-Pelagians, and we do not believe what you have now falsely claimed we believe about five or six times now.

Frankly, in the manner of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople who with the patience of Job corresponded with Lutheran theologians, I am increasingly growing weary of this discussion.  I need to see a good-faith effort from you to respond to the points raised by Mor Ephrem, Porter, myself, and other members, before I proceed in this debate, because otherwise it is waste of time.

It sounds like you may have some deep-seated personal problems. I have responded quite competently. The fact that it has been about a six-on-one debate and I have more than held my own in it is clear on that front. I have chatted with many Orthodox before who uphold the idea that one can turn to God of their own volition. This in NO way implies that they could go further without Grace.But you are one of the few who seems to be saying what Lutherans have ALWAYS said. That the grace of Christ MUST come first.

I suggest that considerable maturation on your part may in fact be needed. You may choose to end the debate if you wish. Of course, by definition, that implies a failure in you to be competent to continue it. Of course, that IS up to you.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 12:29:48 AM by Diego »

Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #290 on: August 09, 2017, 12:32:33 AM »
The Apostle Peter was married, as Scripture attests.

Scripture also does not attest any offspring attributed to that marriage, nor does the tradition of the Church, making it clear that St. Peter and his wife lived in holy chastity.  This is permitted for our bishops.

Indeed, there were no children of any of the 13 Apostles (including Sts. Matthias and Paul), so far as we are aware; this stands in marked contrast to the Old Testament era, in which a hereditary lineage was stressed as being of much greater importance.

There were married bishops in the Church until about the sixth century or so.

Quote
Whereas the Jews received grace through inheritance, a divine grace which they forfeited in the manner of Esau by rejecting their Messiah, with the exception of those numerous Jews who joined the Church, whose descendents are in the Syriac Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Assyrian, and other churches of the Levant, those Jews who rejected Christ forfeited their birthright.
Grace is now universally available to everyone, via the Holy Spirit.  And as befits this new covenant, the ordination of bishops is now an act of grace conferred by chirothesia, the laying on of hands, dispensed by the Holy Spirit, which bestows upon the bishops the charismas required to serve in the episcopal office.

Chirothesia is the Greek term used in the ordination (blessing) of readers and subdeacons.  Chirotonia is the term used in the ordination of bishops, priests, and deacons.
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.


Don't believe everything you think.


The more I know, the less I know.   ;)

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #291 on: August 09, 2017, 12:35:26 AM »
In the Roman Church there were married priests, and a few married bishops, up until the Lateran Council that forbade the practice (in 1215, I THINK), and even AFTER that, it still happened with the Priests.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #292 on: August 09, 2017, 12:36:58 AM »
The fact that you believe that man may begin to turn to God of his own good will is what pushes you to the verge of Pelagianism. Christ must act upon us first. From that point onward, I would certainly accept that one's own free will can begin to act.

I have never stated that; I have explicitly stated several times that the Orthodox soteriology requires the  divine grace of the Holy Spirit to "act upon" a man, to stir him to repentance, in order for him to be able to discern the truth and convert to the holy Catholic church.

This post strongly suggests to me that you are not taking the time to fully read my responses.  If you want me to continue to dialogue with you on this subject, you need to read my responses, and not repeatedly raise points which have already been addressed, for example, your erroneous belief that the Orthodox believe that someone, of their own volition, could opt to convert, without the grace of the Holy Spirit enabling them to make such a decision.

This is not our faith; we are not Pelagians or Semi-Pelagians, and we do not believe what you have now falsely claimed we believe about five or six times now.

Frankly, in the manner of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople who with the patience of Job corresponded with Lutheran theologians, I am increasingly growing weary of this discussion.  I need to see a good-faith effort from you to respond to the points raised by Mor Ephrem, Porter, myself, and other members, before I proceed in this debate, because otherwise it is waste of time.

It sounds like you may have some deep-seated personal problems. I have responded quite competently. The fact that it has been about a six-on-one debate and I have more than held my own in it is clear on that front. I have chatted with many Orthodox before who uphold the idea that one can turn to God of their own volition. This in NO way implies that they could go further without Grace.But you are one of the few who seems to be saying what Lutherans have ALWAYS said. That the grace of Christ MUST come first.

I suggest that considerable maturation on your part may in fact be needed. You may choose to end the debate if you wish. Of course, by definition, that implies a failure in you to be competent to continue it. Of course, that IS up to you.

If you read The Orthodox Way by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, you will see that my claim regarding our soteriology is correct.  You might also try Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky, which addresses this subject as well.  Or indeed, read the Philokalia or the Sayings of the Desert Fathers.

These are actual citations of actual books which you can obtain and refer to.  If anyone has told you that our faith is that someone can freely join the church without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit upon their conscience, they were in error.   The Orthodox Church venerates both St. Augustine and St. John Cassian as saints, and you should study St. John Cassian for the definitive Patristic basis of our soteriology with regards to conversion, once you have validated my initial claims using the books I have cited above.  (If you lack the funds to purchase them, you should be able to access them via Inter Library Loan).
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #293 on: August 09, 2017, 12:38:51 AM »
The Apostle Peter was married, as Scripture attests.

Scripture also does not attest any offspring attributed to that marriage, nor does the tradition of the Church, making it clear that St. Peter and his wife lived in holy chastity.  This is permitted for our bishops.

Indeed, there were no children of any of the 13 Apostles (including Sts. Matthias and Paul), so far as we are aware; this stands in marked contrast to the Old Testament era, in which a hereditary lineage was stressed as being of much greater importance.

There were married bishops in the Church until about the sixth century or so.

Quote
Whereas the Jews received grace through inheritance, a divine grace which they forfeited in the manner of Esau by rejecting their Messiah, with the exception of those numerous Jews who joined the Church, whose descendents are in the Syriac Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Assyrian, and other churches of the Levant, those Jews who rejected Christ forfeited their birthright.
Grace is now universally available to everyone, via the Holy Spirit.  And as befits this new covenant, the ordination of bishops is now an act of grace conferred by chirothesia, the laying on of hands, dispensed by the Holy Spirit, which bestows upon the bishops the charismas required to serve in the episcopal office.

Chirothesia is the Greek term used in the ordination (blessing) of readers and subdeacons.  Chirotonia is the term used in the ordination of bishops, priests, and deacons.

You are of course quite correct on this point; I had forgotten about the Chirothesia/Chirotonia distinction.  Orthodoxy is complex, and thus I am blessed to have competent members like you around who can correct me when I forget or confuse some aspect of our beautiful faith.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #294 on: August 09, 2017, 12:42:28 AM »
I am of course aware that Augustine is regarded as a Saint. I am ALSO aware that he was not even translated to the Greek until the 19th Century. And, in spite of what you are saying, let us be honest: Orthodoxy, like Hispanic Catholicism, is a very Volkisch (to use a German term) Faith in many respects. This is not all bad, but it DOES result in many people (the Volk) NOT understanding what you claim is actual belief.

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #295 on: August 09, 2017, 12:43:15 AM »
And the question of whether MOR is a nice guy or not is not at issue. He may in fact be the greatest hail-fellow-well-met gentleman in the world. I do not know, as I have never met him. I merely state that in terms of intellect, he has neither distinguished himself as brilliant, nor as an idiot.

Don't worry about me, worry about producing Jesus' divorce certificate.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #296 on: August 09, 2017, 12:43:36 AM »
The Apostle Peter was married, as Scripture attests.

Scripture also does not attest any offspring attributed to that marriage, nor does the tradition of the Church, making it clear that St. Peter and his wife lived in holy chastity.  This is permitted for our bishops.

Indeed, there were no children of any of the 13 Apostles (including Sts. Matthias and Paul), so far as we are aware; this stands in marked contrast to the Old Testament era, in which a hereditary lineage was stressed as being of much greater importance.

Whereas the Jews received grace through inheritance, a divine grace which they forfeited in the manner of Esau by rejecting their Messiah, with the exception of those numerous Jews who joined the Church, whose descendents are in the Syriac Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Assyrian, and other churches of the Levant, those Jews who rejected Christ forfeited their birthright.

Grace is now universally available to everyone, via the Holy Spirit.  And as befits this new covenant, the ordination of bishops is now an act of grace conferred by chirothesia, the laying on of hands, dispensed by the Holy Spirit, which bestows upon the bishops the charismas required to serve in the episcopal office.
St Petronilla, daughter of St Peter, who's chapel and relics are in St Peter's Basilica.

WOW! I DID NOT know this little gem! Thank you for introducing it.
Also Eusebius relates that St Phillip the Apostle had four daughters.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #297 on: August 09, 2017, 12:43:45 AM »
In the Roman Church there were married priests, and a few married bishops, up until the Lateran Council that forbade the practice (in 1215, I THINK), and even AFTER that, it still happened with the Priests.

There was a local council in the fourth century that mandated clerical celibacy for priests in at least a portion of the Roman church.  That none of the Fathers objected to this suggests it is an acceptable matter of church discipline; there are many benefits to having a celibate priesthood, just as there are many benefits to having married priests.

I like to think we Orthodox have the best of both worlds, because almost all of our "secular clergy" to use the Roman term are married, and can provide counsel to married couples, and at the same time, we have large numbers of monastic clergy, hieromonks and archimandrites, from whom the bishops are chosen, and these celibate monastic priests, having rejected the world in the manner of what the Roman church calls "regular clergy" (Friars, canons regular, monks, and so on), provide a heavenly perspective to parishioners.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #298 on: August 09, 2017, 12:44:39 AM »
And the question of whether MOR is a nice guy or not is not at issue. He may in fact be the greatest hail-fellow-well-met gentleman in the world. I do not know, as I have never met him. I merely state that in terms of intellect, he has neither distinguished himself as brilliant, nor as an idiot.

Don't worry about me, worry about producing Jesus' divorce certificate.

+1000000
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #299 on: August 09, 2017, 12:45:30 AM »
And the question of whether MOR is a nice guy or not is not at issue. He may in fact be the greatest hail-fellow-well-met gentleman in the world. I do not know, as I have never met him. I merely state that in terms of intellect, he has neither distinguished himself as brilliant, nor as an idiot.

Don't worry about me, worry about producing Jesus' divorce certificate.

That subject has already been handled. Your failure to observe that fact is a personal problem to which I encourage you to find an answer.

In the Roman Church there were married priests, and a few married bishops, up until the Lateran Council that forbade the practice (in 1215, I THINK), and even AFTER that, it still happened with the Priests.

There was a local council in the fourth century that mandated clerical celibacy for priests in at least a portion of the Roman church.  That none of the Fathers objected to this suggests it is an acceptable matter of church discipline; there are many benefits to having a celibate priesthood, just as there are many benefits to having married priests.

I like to think we Orthodox have the best of both worlds, because almost all of our "secular clergy" to use the Roman term are married, and can provide counsel to married couples, and at the same time, we have large numbers of monastic clergy, hieromonks and archimandrites, from whom the bishops are chosen, and these celibate monastic priests, having rejected the world in the manner of what the Roman church calls "regular clergy" (Friars, canons regular, monks, and so on), provide a heavenly perspective to parishioners.

I actually find myself in agreement with you here

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #300 on: August 09, 2017, 12:47:14 AM »
And the question of whether MOR is a nice guy or not is not at issue. He may in fact be the greatest hail-fellow-well-met gentleman in the world. I do not know, as I have never met him. I merely state that in terms of intellect, he has neither distinguished himself as brilliant, nor as an idiot.

Don't worry about me, worry about producing Jesus' divorce certificate.

+1000000

Again, this subject has been resolved in our discussion of the nature of the True Church. You disagreeing with me is beside the point, although you are free to do this. It does not change the fact that the subject has been dealt with.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #301 on: August 09, 2017, 12:47:41 AM »
I am of course aware that Augustine is regarded as a Saint. I am ALSO aware that he was not even translated to the Greek until the 19th Century. And, in spite of what you are saying, let us be honest: Orthodoxy, like Hispanic Catholicism, is a very Volkisch (to use a German term) Faith in many respects. This is not all bad, but it DOES result in many people (the Volk) NOT understanding what you claim is actual belief.

Citation needed.  Prove to me that Orthodoxy is "Volkish."  In the US, at least, the quality of Orthodox catechesis, thanks to the numerous conwertsy, is very high.  In Russia, Romania and elsewhere, where catechesis was obstructed by the communists, the Church has worked to restore it, and these efforts are bearing considerable fruit.  For that matter, I have not seen any material defects in catechesis among the Orthodox of the Levant.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #302 on: August 09, 2017, 12:50:33 AM »
I am of course aware that Augustine is regarded as a Saint. I am ALSO aware that he was not even translated to the Greek until the 19th Century. And, in spite of what you are saying, let us be honest: Orthodoxy, like Hispanic Catholicism, is a very Volkisch (to use a German term) Faith in many respects. This is not all bad, but it DOES result in many people (the Volk) NOT understanding what you claim is actual belief.

Citation needed.  Prove to me that Orthodoxy is "Volkish."  In the US, at least, the quality of Orthodox catechesis, thanks to the numerous conwertsy, is very high.  In Russia, Romania and elsewhere, where catechesis was obstructed by the communists, the Church has worked to restore it, and these efforts are bearing considerable fruit.  For that matter, I have not seen any material defects in catechesis among the Orthodox of the Levant.

Actually, no. Citations are neither needed nor even possible. It is a sociological observation. The average Orthodox kulak is about as Volkisch in his Faith as the average Catholic campesino. You may again, choose to disagree, but you can no more prove your point than I can. It is not a provable matter.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 12:50:58 AM by Diego »

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #303 on: August 09, 2017, 12:53:17 AM »
Damn, Dudes! I HAVE to go to bed! But seriously, I have enjoyed it. You all give as good as you get. But I really do not want my arse handed to me by my wife because I did not get into bed over this. Pray for me, all of you.

Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #304 on: August 09, 2017, 01:07:04 AM »
You are of course quite correct on this point; I had forgotten about the Chirothesia/Chirotonia distinction.  Orthodoxy is complex, and thus I am blessed to have competent members like you around who can correct me when I forget or confuse some aspect of our beautiful faith.

The more I know, the less I know.   ;)
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.


Don't believe everything you think.


The more I know, the less I know.   ;)

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #305 on: August 09, 2017, 11:15:35 AM »
And the question of whether MOR is a nice guy or not is not at issue. He may in fact be the greatest hail-fellow-well-met gentleman in the world. I do not know, as I have never met him. I merely state that in terms of intellect, he has neither distinguished himself as brilliant, nor as an idiot.

Don't worry about me, worry about producing Jesus' divorce certificate.

That subject has already been handled.

Which post was that?
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #306 on: August 10, 2017, 03:47:38 AM »
I am of course aware that Augustine is regarded as a Saint. I am ALSO aware that he was not even translated to the Greek until the 19th Century. And, in spite of what you are saying, let us be honest: Orthodoxy, like Hispanic Catholicism, is a very Volkisch (to use a German term) Faith in many respects. This is not all bad, but it DOES result in many people (the Volk) NOT understanding what you claim is actual belief.

Citation needed.  Prove to me that Orthodoxy is "Volkish."  In the US, at least, the quality of Orthodox catechesis, thanks to the numerous conwertsy, is very high.  In Russia, Romania and elsewhere, where catechesis was obstructed by the communists, the Church has worked to restore it, and these efforts are bearing considerable fruit.  For that matter, I have not seen any material defects in catechesis among the Orthodox of the Levant.

Actually, no. Citations are neither needed nor even possible. It is a sociological observation. The average Orthodox kulak is about as Volkisch in his Faith as the average Catholic campesino. You may again, choose to disagree, but you can no more prove your point than I can. It is not a provable matter.

Ah, in that case then it was just a generalized, broad smear against the persecuted millions of Orthodox Chrisrians founded on nothing except your own opinion.  Gotcha.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #307 on: August 10, 2017, 05:15:18 PM »
I am of course aware that Augustine is regarded as a Saint. I am ALSO aware that he was not even translated to the Greek until the 19th Century. And, in spite of what you are saying, let us be honest: Orthodoxy, like Hispanic Catholicism, is a very Volkisch (to use a German term) Faith in many respects. This is not all bad, but it DOES result in many people (the Volk) NOT understanding what you claim is actual belief.

Citation needed.  Prove to me that Orthodoxy is "Volkish."  In the US, at least, the quality of Orthodox catechesis, thanks to the numerous conwertsy, is very high.  In Russia, Romania and elsewhere, where catechesis was obstructed by the communists, the Church has worked to restore it, and these efforts are bearing considerable fruit.  For that matter, I have not seen any material defects in catechesis among the Orthodox of the Levant.

Actually, no. Citations are neither needed nor even possible. It is a sociological observation. The average Orthodox kulak is about as Volkisch in his Faith as the average Catholic campesino. You may again, choose to disagree, but you can no more prove your point than I can. It is not a provable matter.

Ah, in that case then it was just a generalized, broad smear against the persecuted millions of Orthodox Chrisrians founded on nothing except your own opinion.  Gotcha.

Another non-response, that, one of the many of which you are so good at producing. Gotcha.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #308 on: August 10, 2017, 05:29:00 PM »
I am of course aware that Augustine is regarded as a Saint. I am ALSO aware that he was not even translated to the Greek until the 19th Century. And, in spite of what you are saying, let us be honest: Orthodoxy, like Hispanic Catholicism, is a very Volkisch (to use a German term) Faith in many respects. This is not all bad, but it DOES result in many people (the Volk) NOT understanding what you claim is actual belief.

Citation needed.  Prove to me that Orthodoxy is "Volkish."  In the US, at least, the quality of Orthodox catechesis, thanks to the numerous conwertsy, is very high.  In Russia, Romania and elsewhere, where catechesis was obstructed by the communists, the Church has worked to restore it, and these efforts are bearing considerable fruit.  For that matter, I have not seen any material defects in catechesis among the Orthodox of the Levant.

Actually, no. Citations are neither needed nor even possible. It is a sociological observation. The average Orthodox kulak is about as Volkisch in his Faith as the average Catholic campesino. You may again, choose to disagree, but you can no more prove your point than I can. It is not a provable matter.

Ah, in that case then it was just a generalized, broad smear against the persecuted millions of Orthodox Chrisrians founded on nothing except your own opinion.  Gotcha.

Another non-response, that, one of the many of which you are so good at producing. Gotcha.

You made a deeply offensive remark, based on your own "sociological observation," that Orthodox are "Volkish" in the manner of Hispanic Catholics (another offensive generalization), implying as it were that the Orthodox are poorly catechized, superstitious, and backwards (and then saying the same thing about Hispanic catholicism).   There is a whiff of racism to these remarks; they are unacceptable and you should withdraw them.

If you wish to continue to debate with me, you need to refrain from ad hominem attacks against myself and other members (for example, calling people you disagree with idiots, gay, or mentally ill), you need to refrain from appeals to authority, and other logical fallacies, and in general display the loving-kindness that one expects from someone professing any form of Christianity.

Otherwise, I can't debate with you I'm afraid, because it would be a futile exercise, stressful and inclinig me towards potentially sinful agitation.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 05:30:21 PM by Alpha60 »
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #309 on: August 10, 2017, 05:34:22 PM »
You are of course quite correct on this point; I had forgotten about the Chirothesia/Chirotonia distinction.  Orthodoxy is complex, and thus I am blessed to have competent members like you around who can correct me when I forget or confuse some aspect of our beautiful faith.

The more I know, the less I know.   ;)

I know exactly how you feel.  As one progresses in knowledge one is progressively humbled by learning of more and more of which one is ignorant, and in many cases, this additional knowledge is completely inaccessible.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #310 on: August 10, 2017, 05:52:14 PM »
I am of course aware that Augustine is regarded as a Saint. I am ALSO aware that he was not even translated to the Greek until the 19th Century. And, in spite of what you are saying, let us be honest: Orthodoxy, like Hispanic Catholicism, is a very Volkisch (to use a German term) Faith in many respects. This is not all bad, but it DOES result in many people (the Volk) NOT understanding what you claim is actual belief.

Citation needed.  Prove to me that Orthodoxy is "Volkish."  In the US, at least, the quality of Orthodox catechesis, thanks to the numerous conwertsy, is very high.  In Russia, Romania and elsewhere, where catechesis was obstructed by the communists, the Church has worked to restore it, and these efforts are bearing considerable fruit.  For that matter, I have not seen any material defects in catechesis among the Orthodox of the Levant.

Actually, no. Citations are neither needed nor even possible. It is a sociological observation. The average Orthodox kulak is about as Volkisch in his Faith as the average Catholic campesino. You may again, choose to disagree, but you can no more prove your point than I can. It is not a provable matter.

Ah, in that case then it was just a generalized, broad smear against the persecuted millions of Orthodox Chrisrians founded on nothing except your own opinion.  Gotcha.

Another non-response, that, one of the many of which you are so good at producing. Gotcha.

You made a deeply offensive remark, based on your own "sociological observation," that Orthodox are "Volkish" in the manner of Hispanic Catholics (another offensive generalization), implying as it were that the Orthodox are poorly catechized, superstitious, and backwards (and then saying the same thing about Hispanic catholicism).   There is a whiff of racism to these remarks; they are unacceptable and you should withdraw them.

If you wish to continue to debate with me, you need to refrain from ad hominem attacks against myself and other members (for example, calling people you disagree with idiots, gay, or mentally ill), you need to refrain from appeals to authority, and other logical fallacies, and in general display the loving-kindness that one expects from someone professing any form of Christianity.

Otherwise, I can't debate with you I'm afraid, because it would be a futile exercise, stressful and inclinig me towards potentially sinful agitation.

I suggest maturation classes for you. It is in no way racist to make a simple statement. You choosing to dive into politically correct insults is a sign of considerable growth being needed on your own part. I have made no appeals to authority, since stating a commonly known fact of Russian history does not involve such an appeal.

I have lived in Latin America for some time at one point in my life, and studied extensively there. I am reasonably well qualified to make commentaries on the society I found there, and also, from my own research, reasonably well qualified to make comparisons to some forms of Orthodoxy. Keep in mind, the same could be said of Irish Catholics, and to a certain degree, Scandinavian Lutherans (given that the Lutheran Confessions forbid devotion to the Saints, but it is still known to occur there).

Again, I strongly suggest you grow up, and begin to act like an adult. Throwing accusations of racism just makes you look PC, and frankly, a bit foolish.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #311 on: August 10, 2017, 05:56:37 PM »
Right, that's it.  God bless you.
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Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #312 on: August 10, 2017, 05:58:59 PM »
Right, that's it.  God bless you.

QED.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #313 on: August 10, 2017, 06:25:29 PM »
It should also be noted that I grew up a Roman Catholic in a parish that was about 90% Hispanic in Southern California, and to a large degree retain much of the Volkisch Faith myself. I AM, therefore, fairly well qualified to comment on the subject.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 06:25:50 PM by Diego »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #314 on: August 10, 2017, 06:41:04 PM »
Oh that explains why you're named Diego and not Jakob.
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