Author Topic: American Liturgical Vestments  (Read 2808 times)

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Offline LenInSebastopol

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American Liturgical Vestments
« on: May 10, 2017, 02:14:45 PM »
Is it not about time?
We can carry on THE tradition however as there are nothing to zero patterns for vestment making written in English....is it not about time?
There is a Greek style, a Russian style, probably a Serbian one as well, so...
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2017, 02:19:33 PM »
What makes an American vestment? Brocade footballs and eagles and Mickey Mouse? Maybe all our priests should dress like Elvis impersonators? No thanks. Only countries with actual culture should get to make their own vestment styles.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 02:20:05 PM by Iconodule »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2017, 02:24:07 PM »
One priest I know wears very low-key vestments that are not very ornate or decorative. The other wears very ornate vestments. I'm pretty sure it's at the priest's discretion is it not?
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Offline augustin717

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2017, 04:54:20 PM »
The confederate flag?
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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2017, 05:44:50 PM »
We have a poster who sometimes still pops in who is something of an expert on capes and related clothing items in American liturgical contexts, perhaps he'll chime in.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2017, 06:03:56 PM »
Only countries with actual culture should get to make their own vestment styles.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2017, 06:06:58 PM »
Only countries with actual culture should get to make their own vestment styles.
Related image

Africa has gobs of culture and cultures. Not that this chap is African, and I'm not sure your point.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 06:07:17 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2017, 06:11:11 PM »
Is it not about time?
We can carry on THE tradition however as there are nothing to zero patterns for vestment making written in English....is it not about time?
There is a Greek style, a Russian style, probably a Serbian one as well, so...

There isn't really an American traditional vestment. The culture who could make any claim would be the Natives, naturally, but after that the English and Germans (they were the prominent cultures in Colonial times), and in certain specific places the French (e.g. Louisiana), the Spanish (throughout the West really), and the Russians (Alaska of course).
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2017, 06:12:49 PM »
What makes an American vestment?

This is a great question, esp. since the liturgical vestments of most Eastern traditions are basically the same (and are close enough to their Western counterparts). 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2017, 06:15:50 PM »
I did see a Russian phelonion made with material that had a Chinese dragon pattern. Not sure if this is common or not.
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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2017, 06:19:42 PM »
I have no idea what Americanized vestments would look like, but I do know that historically when societies gained autonomy and started doing their own Eastern Orthodox thing, it often had little to do with advanced culture (or any culture whatsoever), and more to do with what the leaders of that society could pry from the hands of Rome or Constantinople when the latter needed aid of some kind. (Or better yet, the society would pit patriarchates against one another, waiting to see who would offer the better deal.)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2017, 06:29:36 PM »
I have no idea what Americanized vestments would look like, but I do know that historically when societies gained autonomy and started doing their own Eastern Orthodox thing, it often had little to do with advanced culture (or any culture whatsoever), and more to do with what the leaders of that society could pry from the hands of Rome or Constantinople when the latter needed aid of some kind. (Or better yet, the society would pit patriarchates against one another, waiting to see who would offer the better deal.)

Weavers were a Roman monopoly?

"Culture" does not mean "culture."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2017, 06:51:04 PM »
I have no idea what Americanized vestments would look like, but I do know that historically when societies gained autonomy and started doing their own Eastern Orthodox thing, it often had little to do with advanced culture (or any culture whatsoever), and more to do with what the leaders of that society could pry from the hands of Rome or Constantinople when the latter needed aid of some kind. (Or better yet, the society would pit patriarchates against one another, waiting to see who would offer the better deal.)

Weavers were a Roman monopoly?

"Culture" does not mean "culture."

I was responding mostly to the idea that America had no chips in the game because it had a lulzy culture.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2017, 06:55:07 PM »
I have no idea what Americanized vestments would look like, but I do know that historically when societies gained autonomy and started doing their own Eastern Orthodox thing, it often had little to do with advanced culture (or any culture whatsoever), and more to do with what the leaders of that society could pry from the hands of Rome or Constantinople when the latter needed aid of some kind. (Or better yet, the society would pit patriarchates against one another, waiting to see who would offer the better deal.)

Weavers were a Roman monopoly?

"Culture" does not mean "culture."

I was responding mostly to the idea that America had no chips in the game because it had a lulzy culture.

And you completely missed which usage of "culture" is being talked about.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2017, 09:24:34 PM »
Africa has gobs of culture and cultures. Not that this chap is African, and I'm not sure your point.
I was just entering Iconodule's joke. :P
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2017, 09:57:57 PM »
The confederate flag?
Only in the Diocese of the South.
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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2017, 11:17:58 PM »
Maybe all our priests should dress like Elvis impersonators?
The first time my mother saw Byzantine vestiments she said the priest was wearing and Elvis costume.
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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2017, 08:00:08 AM »
The confederate flag?
Only in the Diocese of the South.

Possibly in Brazil.
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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2017, 08:01:07 AM »
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2017, 09:09:57 AM »
Maybe all our priests should dress like Elvis impersonators?
The first time my mother saw Byzantine vestiments she said the priest was wearing and Elvis costume.

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2017, 09:39:55 AM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....




 
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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2017, 09:46:38 AM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....

The liturgical language issue will ultimately be resolved by working out some version of American Orthodox Esperanto.
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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2017, 08:28:07 AM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....

The liturgical language issue will ultimately be resolved by working out some version of American Orthodox Esperanto.

There are Catholic priests who say the Novus Ordo mass in Esperanto.
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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2017, 11:23:10 AM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....

The liturgical language issue will ultimately be resolved by working out some version of American Orthodox Esperanto.

There are Catholic priests who say the Novus Ordo mass in Esperanto.

At least it's not Latin.  #spiritofvatican2
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2017, 12:42:23 PM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 12:42:59 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2017, 12:54:48 PM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

Man up and be ROCOR.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2017, 12:58:54 PM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

So they choose a name that obfuscates their heritage. Don't make more out of it than that.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2017, 01:09:12 PM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

So they choose a name that obfuscates their heritage.

Which would be...?
Quote
Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop
- GK Chesteron, "Lepanto"

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2017, 01:25:56 PM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

So they choose a name that obfuscates their heritage.

Which would be...?

Moscow. Or did they teach you that George Washington gave them a writ of autocephaly?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2017, 01:29:02 PM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

So they choose a name that obfuscates their heritage.

Which would be...?

Moscow. Or did they teach you that George Washington gave them a writ of autocephaly?

Jurisdiction is not heritage. By that logic the Antiochian Archdiocese's heritage is also "Moscow".
Quote
Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop
- GK Chesteron, "Lepanto"

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2017, 01:30:40 PM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

So they choose a name that obfuscates their heritage.

Which would be...?

Moscow. Or did they teach you that George Washington gave them a writ of autocephaly?

Jurisdiction is not heritage. By that logic the Antiochian Archdiocese's heritage is also "Moscow".

Who in the thread is arguing that the Antiochians are the true American church?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2017, 01:40:27 PM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

So they choose a name that obfuscates their heritage.

Which would be...?

Moscow. Or did they teach you that George Washington gave them a writ of autocephaly?

Jurisdiction is not heritage. By that logic the Antiochian Archdiocese's heritage is also "Moscow".

Who in the thread is arguing that the Antiochians are the true American church?

Nobody argued that OCA is the "true American church." I do see NicholasMyra giving his opinion that the OCA is the core around which Orthodox parishes in America should be unified. I myself don't think a simple expansion of the OCA is a viable solution to our jurisdictional problem- the OCA would itself likely be dissolved into whatever organization results. That said, your assertion that the OCA has a unitary heritage that can be summed up in "Moscow" is ill-informed. The majority of parishes that formed the OCA were founded by people from lands that were never part of the Russian empire or under MP jurisdiction. That includes Carpatho-Rus', Bulgarians, Romanians, and Albanians.
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Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop
- GK Chesteron, "Lepanto"

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2017, 02:05:02 PM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

So they choose a name that obfuscates their heritage.

Which would be...?

Moscow. Or did they teach you that George Washington gave them a writ of autocephaly?

Jurisdiction is not heritage. By that logic the Antiochian Archdiocese's heritage is also "Moscow".

Who in the thread is arguing that the Antiochians are the true American church?

Nobody argued that OCA is the "true American church." I do see NicholasMyra giving his opinion that the OCA is the core around which Orthodox parishes in America should be unified. I myself don't think a simple expansion of the OCA is a viable solution to our jurisdictional problem- the OCA would itself likely be dissolved into whatever organization results. That said, your assertion that the OCA has a unitary heritage that can be summed up in "Moscow" is ill-informed. The majority of parishes that formed the OCA were founded by people from lands that were never part of the Russian empire or under MP jurisdiction. That includes Carpatho-Rus', Bulgarians, Romanians, and Albanians.

Bored today, huh?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Diego

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2017, 03:13:40 PM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

So they choose a name that obfuscates their heritage.

Which would be...?

Moscow. Or did they teach you that George Washington gave them a writ of autocephaly?

Jurisdiction is not heritage. By that logic the Antiochian Archdiocese's heritage is also "Moscow".

Who in the thread is arguing that the Antiochians are the true American church?

Nobody argued that OCA is the "true American church." I do see NicholasMyra giving his opinion that the OCA is the core around which Orthodox parishes in America should be unified. I myself don't think a simple expansion of the OCA is a viable solution to our jurisdictional problem- the OCA would itself likely be dissolved into whatever organization results. That said, your assertion that the OCA has a unitary heritage that can be summed up in "Moscow" is ill-informed. The majority of parishes that formed the OCA were founded by people from lands that were never part of the Russian empire or under MP jurisdiction. That includes Carpatho-Rus', Bulgarians, Romanians, and Albanians.

I did not know this. A friend of mine who went from his Southern Baptist upbringing (ugh!) to the Wisconsin Synod (double-ugh! They are basically Calvinists who for some perverse reason became Lutheran, Geneva gown and all), then to the Missouri Synod, and then to the OCA, considers himself to be essentially Russian Orthodox. To be fair, however, he never claimed the ENTIRE jurisdiction was. I had ignorantly assumed, that since their autocephaly was given by Moscow, that that is what they were. Thank you for enlightening me on this matter.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2017, 03:18:48 PM »
There are parishes in the OCA with genuine Russian background. And an unfortunate thing about the OCA is that, by their own initiative, most or all of the Carpatho-Rus' parishes "Russified" and adopted Russian-style music, liturgics, etc. There was an attitude that the Carpatho-Rus' traditions were somehow bound up with Greek Catholicism and that Russian stuff was somehow inherently more Orthodox. One result is that there are parishioners whose ancestors came from, say, Slovakia or Poland but who think they are Russian.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 03:20:04 PM by Iconodule »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2017, 03:23:37 PM »
US influence in Guatemala comes mainly in the form of death squads and dictators.
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Offline Keble

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2017, 07:23:10 AM »
I dunno, I've mad two chasubles over the years. Oh, of course western vestments, but hey...
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 07:23:29 AM by Keble »

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2017, 03:18:51 AM »
I have been converted to the notion of American unity under the Serbs.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2017, 06:43:00 AM »
I dunno, I've mad two chasubles over the years. Oh, of course western vestments, but hey...

A chasuble is basically a phelonion with the added restriction of being used only in the Mass and other sacramental services, whereas the Phelonion can be used in situations where in the Western Rite you would wear a Cope.

I like the parallel by the way between the Catholic priest removing his cope after the Introit and donning a chasuble, and the vesting of the Bishop in an Orthodox hierarchical liturgy.  I believe these are relics of some ancient public vesting rite in one of the more liturgically influential churches (probably Jerusalem, from which all of the rites take so much, for example, the basic template for Holy Week, due to pilgrimages).
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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2017, 09:41:59 AM »
I have been converted to the notion of American unity under the Serbs.

I've decided to start a takeover movement insisting that America can only embrace its Orthodox heritage in a single jurisdiction with an all-Aleut liturgy.

We will have a proper Western Rite, but priests will still have to vest as Russian fur traders.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 09:42:21 AM by Agabus »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2017, 10:06:07 AM »
I have been converted to the notion of American unity under the Serbs.

I'll bet you have...
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2017, 12:48:14 PM »
I have been converted to the notion of American unity under the Serbs.

I've decided to start a takeover movement insisting that America can only embrace its Orthodox heritage in a single jurisdiction with an all-Aleut liturgy.

We will have a proper Western Rite, but priests will still have to vest as Russian fur traders.

I like it.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2017, 11:32:32 PM »
I have been converted to the notion of American unity under the Serbs.

I'll bet you have...
Me too
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2017, 02:39:26 AM »
Is it not about time?
We can carry on THE tradition however as there are nothing to zero patterns for vestment making written in English....is it not about time?
There is a Greek style, a Russian style, probably a Serbian one as well, so...

There are really just four styles in Eastern Orthodoxy: Byzantine, Athonite/Russian, Ukrainian, Alexandrian and Russian Old Believer.

The Byzantine vestments drape over the shoulders, whereas the Athonite vestments, which are the norm in Russia, feature the distinctive high collar on the phenolion.  The Ukrainian vestments are very similiar, but the Phelonion is cut slightly differently, so that more of the Epitrachelion is visible; it's cut a bit higher in the front.  I suspect this was for the comfort of priests in warm summers in Crimea and elsewhere.

The Russian Old Believer and Alexandrian vestments are of the Athonite and Byzantine type, with one exception: mitres.  The Pope and Patriarch of All Africa wears a distinctive mitre which in its shape vaguely resembles the old Papal Tiaras of the Roman Popes (ironically, the Coptic Pope, and the Ethiopian and Eritrean Patriarchs, wear dark red mitres of standard Byzantine design, the only aspect of Coptic and Ethiopian liturgical dress which is exactly identical to the Byzantine Rite equivalent; I suspect historically this was not the case, but rather, that these Byzantine style mitres replaced an earlier mitre that probably looked like the "emma", the mitre worn by Coptic bishops, when the Coptic church benefitted from increased financial prosperity and safety with the fall of the Ottoman Empire, or perhaps it started with Pope Shenouda of eternal memory; he made several changes to the vestments).

The Russian Old Believers who have priests and bishops wear more or less the standard Athonite vestments, but I have seen photographs of their bishops wearing distinctive fur-covered mitres.  These fur mitres probably predate the Nikonian reforms; I suspect at one time they were the standard in Russia.  I think some Edinovertsie in Russia also use these.   I think I once saw a Phelonion of the Athonite cut, made from fur as well, in use by an Old Believer.

Of course, these vestments violate the prohibition on animal products in the altar, but the easy explanation is that the Russian church was not historically aware of this, pre-Nikon, and this explains liturgical vestments made from fur as part of the ancient Russian worship tradition.

So basically, really you have three mainstream styles: Athonite, Ukrainian, which is so close to Athonite that most people couldnt tell the difference, and Byzantine.

This obviously is not counting the Western Orthodox vestments nor the vestments of the Oriental Orthodox (of which at present there are four styles, but in antiquity we probably had others, and the Syriac Orthodox Church was historically impoverished, so the beautiful, colorful vestments of Indian manufacture we have at present I doubt were in use outside of India until the late 19th or 20th century, but rather, very drab and simple vestments, and as I mentioned above, Pope Shenouda made changes to the vesture of monks, and I believe he changed that of the priests as well, and other Coptic vestments common 50 years ago like the Diaconal crown have become quite rare).
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2017, 08:59:26 AM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

So they choose a name that obfuscates their heritage.

Which would be...?

Moscow. Or did they teach you that George Washington gave them a writ of autocephaly?

Well, he was the general of autocephaly.
God is The Creator of All Free Beings

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2017, 09:04:47 AM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

So they choose a name that obfuscates their heritage.

Which would be...?

Moscow. Or did they teach you that George Washington gave them a writ of autocephaly?

Jurisdiction is not heritage. By that logic the Antiochian Archdiocese's heritage is also "Moscow".

Who in the thread is arguing that the Antiochians are the true American church?

Nobody argued that OCA is the "true American church." I do see NicholasMyra giving his opinion that the OCA is the core around which Orthodox parishes in America should be unified. I myself don't think a simple expansion of the OCA is a viable solution to our jurisdictional problem- the OCA would itself likely be dissolved into whatever organization results. That said, your assertion that the OCA has a unitary heritage that can be summed up in "Moscow" is ill-informed. The majority of parishes that formed the OCA were founded by people from lands that were never part of the Russian empire or under MP jurisdiction. That includes Carpatho-Rus', Bulgarians, Romanians, and Albanians.

I did not know this. A friend of mine who went from his Southern Baptist upbringing (ugh!) to the Wisconsin Synod (double-ugh! They are basically Calvinists who for some perverse reason became Lutheran, Geneva gown and all), then to the Missouri Synod, and then to the OCA, considers himself to be essentially Russian Orthodox. To be fair, however, he never claimed the ENTIRE jurisdiction was. I had ignorantly assumed, that since their autocephaly was given by Moscow, that that is what they were. Thank you for enlightening me on this matter.

He endarkened me on it.
Funny how The Patriarch considers US to be a "colony" of Russia, and so we were not "invited" to Crete last June.
Also odd how, by whom and why the OCA was started.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2017, 09:07:32 AM »
I have been converted to the notion of American unity under the Serbs.

I've decided to start a takeover movement insisting that America can only embrace its Orthodox heritage in a single jurisdiction with an all-Aleut liturgy.
We will have a proper Western Rite, but priests will still have to vest as Russian fur traders.

Aleut, Yu'Pik & Inuit.....you'all got my vote if running for Pope.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2017, 09:13:23 AM »
Thank you.
It's always a blessing to find someone who knows their stuff, rather than run into the smarty-knuckleheads like myself and  the many posts here.
Maybe you know of
http://kwvestments.com/lecture_Aesthetics_SanFran_2016.html

who is worth the hour of anyone's day to enjoy.
=

Is it not about time?
We can carry on THE tradition however as there are nothing to zero patterns for vestment making written in English....is it not about time?
There is a Greek style, a Russian style, probably a Serbian one as well, so...

There are really just four styles in Eastern Orthodoxy: Byzantine, Athonite/Russian, Ukrainian, Alexandrian and Russian Old Believer.

The Byzantine vestments drape over the shoulders, whereas the Athonite vestments, which are the norm in Russia, feature the distinctive high collar on the phenolion.  The Ukrainian vestments are very similiar, but the Phelonion is cut slightly differently, so that more of the Epitrachelion is visible; it's cut a bit higher in the front.  I suspect this was for the comfort of priests in warm summers in Crimea and elsewhere.

The Russian Old Believer and Alexandrian vestments are of the Athonite and Byzantine type, with one exception: mitres.  The Pope and Patriarch of All Africa wears a distinctive mitre which in its shape vaguely resembles the old Papal Tiaras of the Roman Popes (ironically, the Coptic Pope, and the Ethiopian and Eritrean Patriarchs, wear dark red mitres of standard Byzantine design, the only aspect of Coptic and Ethiopian liturgical dress which is exactly identical to the Byzantine Rite equivalent; I suspect historically this was not the case, but rather, that these Byzantine style mitres replaced an earlier mitre that probably looked like the "emma", the mitre worn by Coptic bishops, when the Coptic church benefitted from increased financial prosperity and safety with the fall of the Ottoman Empire, or perhaps it started with Pope Shenouda of eternal memory; he made several changes to the vestments).

The Russian Old Believers who have priests and bishops wear more or less the standard Athonite vestments, but I have seen photographs of their bishops wearing distinctive fur-covered mitres.  These fur mitres probably predate the Nikonian reforms; I suspect at one time they were the standard in Russia.  I think some Edinovertsie in Russia also use these.   I think I once saw a Phelonion of the Athonite cut, made from fur as well, in use by an Old Believer.

Of course, these vestments violate the prohibition on animal products in the altar, but the easy explanation is that the Russian church was not historically aware of this, pre-Nikon, and this explains liturgical vestments made from fur as part of the ancient Russian worship tradition.

So basically, really you have three mainstream styles: Athonite, Ukrainian, which is so close to Athonite that most people couldnt tell the difference, and Byzantine.

This obviously is not counting the Western Orthodox vestments nor the vestments of the Oriental Orthodox (of which at present there are four styles, but in antiquity we probably had others, and the Syriac Orthodox Church was historically impoverished, so the beautiful, colorful vestments of Indian manufacture we have at present I doubt were in use outside of India until the late 19th or 20th century, but rather, very drab and simple vestments, and as I mentioned above, Pope Shenouda made changes to the vesture of monks, and I believe he changed that of the priests as well, and other Coptic vestments common 50 years ago like the Diaconal crown have become quite rare).
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2017, 09:19:40 AM »
Here's Met Hilarion wearing the furry mitre at an edinoverie parish.

Quote
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- GK Chesteron, "Lepanto"

Offline Alpha60

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2017, 11:16:48 AM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....

I don't see the need.  The Ecumenical Patriarchate, in its very Greek Orthodox core, uses Byzantine style vestments in most parishes, but on Mount Athos, they use Athonite style vestments.  In the US, they use all three (Athonite at Elder Ephrems monasteries, Ukrainian at Ukrainian parishes, and Byzantine at GoArch and Greek parishes).  Likewise in the UK and in Paris, they use Athonite vestments in their Russian parishes, and Byzantine vestments in their Greek parishes.

Now, I am not saying I think the EP should be the one unified EO church in North America; I'm actually personally leaning against a manor change from the status quo, for fear a united church could be taken over by modernists who might implement the devastating changes to the liturgy proposed and actively used at New Skete.

But if there is to be a unified American church, it can continue to use all three of the major vestment styles, surely.

The only major issue might be choir dress.  I personally, despite being very much a liturgical maximalist and traditionalist in virtually every other respect, think that the Antiochian practice of wearing clerical collars similiar to the clergy of other denominations is useful in the US, as it identifies their priests clearly in public, and it is particularly useful with regards to chaplaaincy, and visits to hospitals, nursing homes, et cetera.
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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2017, 12:05:35 PM »
What style of vestments a unified American jurisdiction uses falls further down the list of priorities than the debate about faux-archaic versus contemporary English language liturgy.

Which is to say, very far down the list of priorities.

I don't understand why there'd need to be a change for parishes of 'x' origin to change how they vest once the episcopal assembly or whatever mutated political ecclesiastical court hammers out the one-bishop-per-territory issue.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2017, 01:01:12 PM »
I just hope, when it comes down to it, bishops wear this:

"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #52 on: August 19, 2017, 11:50:42 AM »
The Russian Old Believers who have priests and bishops wear more or less the standard Athonite vestments, but I have seen photographs of their bishops wearing distinctive fur-covered mitres.  These fur mitres probably predate the Nikonian reforms; I suspect at one time they were the standard in Russia.  I think some Edinovertsie in Russia also use these.   I think I once saw a Phelonion of the Athonite cut, made from fur as well, in use by an Old Believer.

Of course, these vestments violate the prohibition on animal products in the altar, but the easy explanation is that the Russian church was not historically aware of this, pre-Nikon, and this explains liturgical vestments made from fur as part of the ancient Russian worship tradition.

What's the source of this prohibition? It strikes me as too far-reaching to be true, especially in a medieval context. If it was a hard and fast rule, I don't see why the pre-Nikonian Russian Church would be unaware of it.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #53 on: August 19, 2017, 02:58:43 PM »
The Russian Old Believers who have priests and bishops wear more or less the standard Athonite vestments, but I have seen photographs of their bishops wearing distinctive fur-covered mitres.  These fur mitres probably predate the Nikonian reforms; I suspect at one time they were the standard in Russia.  I think some Edinovertsie in Russia also use these.   I think I once saw a Phelonion of the Athonite cut, made from fur as well, in use by an Old Believer.

Of course, these vestments violate the prohibition on animal products in the altar, but the easy explanation is that the Russian church was not historically aware of this, pre-Nikon, and this explains liturgical vestments made from fur as part of the ancient Russian worship tradition.

What's the source of this prohibition? It strikes me as too far-reaching to be true, especially in a medieval context. If it was a hard and fast rule, I don't see why the pre-Nikonian Russian Church would be unaware of it.

Its not really hard and fast these days; leather belts, leather bound books and even leather shoes turn up in EO altars, even though they aren't supposed to.  The Syriac Orthodox strike me as being the most strict about it; the Copts follow, except for their use of peacock or ostrich feathers, but these, to be fair, are not animal products in the sense that they were obtained by killing said animal.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Jonathan

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2017, 10:15:22 AM »
The Russian Old Believers who have priests and bishops wear more or less the standard Athonite vestments, but I have seen photographs of their bishops wearing distinctive fur-covered mitres.  These fur mitres probably predate the Nikonian reforms; I suspect at one time they were the standard in Russia.  I think some Edinovertsie in Russia also use these.   I think I once saw a Phelonion of the Athonite cut, made from fur as well, in use by an Old Believer.

Of course, these vestments violate the prohibition on animal products in the altar, but the easy explanation is that the Russian church was not historically aware of this, pre-Nikon, and this explains liturgical vestments made from fur as part of the ancient Russian worship tradition.

What's the source of this prohibition? It strikes me as too far-reaching to be true, especially in a medieval context. If it was a hard and fast rule, I don't see why the pre-Nikonian Russian Church would be unaware of it.

Its not really hard and fast these days; leather belts, leather bound books and even leather shoes turn up in EO altars, even though they aren't supposed to.  The Syriac Orthodox strike me as being the most strict about it; the Copts follow, except for their use of peacock or ostrich feathers, but these, to be fair, are not animal products in the sense that they were obtained by killing said animal.

Leather crosses are very common on coptic clergy in the altar...

Offline Alpha60

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #55 on: August 21, 2017, 11:18:41 AM »
The Russian Old Believers who have priests and bishops wear more or less the standard Athonite vestments, but I have seen photographs of their bishops wearing distinctive fur-covered mitres.  These fur mitres probably predate the Nikonian reforms; I suspect at one time they were the standard in Russia.  I think some Edinovertsie in Russia also use these.   I think I once saw a Phelonion of the Athonite cut, made from fur as well, in use by an Old Believer.

Of course, these vestments violate the prohibition on animal products in the altar, but the easy explanation is that the Russian church was not historically aware of this, pre-Nikon, and this explains liturgical vestments made from fur as part of the ancient Russian worship tradition.

What's the source of this prohibition? It strikes me as too far-reaching to be true, especially in a medieval context. If it was a hard and fast rule, I don't see why the pre-Nikonian Russian Church would be unaware of it.

Its not really hard and fast these days; leather belts, leather bound books and even leather shoes turn up in EO altars, even though they aren't supposed to.  The Syriac Orthodox strike me as being the most strict about it; the Copts follow, except for their use of peacock or ostrich feathers, but these, to be fair, are not animal products in the sense that they were obtained by killing said animal.

Leather crosses are very common on coptic clergy in the altar...

Good point.
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