Author Topic: Physical Immortality  (Read 419 times)

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Offline Niko92

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Physical Immortality
« on: April 21, 2017, 01:03:45 AM »
If it were possible in the future with the ever advancing technology we have, to somehow be physical immortal, What would be an Orthodox take on this? I mean does it cause any problems with say, if we don't die, there wouldn't be an after life in heaven etc?

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2017, 01:44:04 AM »
If it were possible in the future with the ever advancing technology we have, to somehow be physical immortal, What would be an Orthodox take on this? I mean does it cause any problems with say, if we don't die, there wouldn't be an after life in heaven etc?
There would be no problem theologically. Paul in 2 Thess iirc thinks some people will not have died by the 2nd coming.
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Indocern

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2017, 06:07:47 AM »
The technology is already advanced, there is not only this world.
Yes it is possible but the forces that control those things are not known to the most of the people in this world.
Heaven and hell are just interpretation.
But to become immortal you must be saved.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 06:34:37 AM by Indocern »

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2017, 06:36:16 AM »
If it were possible in the future with the ever advancing technology we have, to somehow be physical immortal, What would be an Orthodox take on this? I mean does it cause any problems with say, if we don't die, there wouldn't be an after life in heaven etc?


It will not happen. Only atheistic minded people ask such type of questions and generate this type of ideas.

Also, the so called afterlife is just a temporary state, until the day of resurrection and the day of judgement, after this we will become immortals here on this earth, with our resurrected bodies, and Christ's kingdom will have no end.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 06:40:08 AM by Vanhyo »

Offline Niko92

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2017, 08:38:26 AM »
Thank you for your helpful answer Rakovsky.

I didn't ask it from an atheistic mindset. I was reading about virtual reality and the replacement of TV's when this came to mind.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2017, 09:30:40 AM »
The Russian Orthodox philosopher Fyodorov proposed that mankind could cooperate with God in the work of the general resurrection through advances in medical technology- very similar to transhumanist fantasies but without the atheistic element.

That said, I think the question kind of misses what resurrection and immortality really are. Extending life, even indefinitely, through such technological means is really a prolongation and mitigation of corruption. The resurrection is something wholly different- the abolition of corruption. In Christ it was not accomplished by technological means but by the profound humility of Christ and the power of God. The body of the resurrection is not simply an augmented body as we have now, but is in quite a different state.

The appropriateness of particular technologies and medical interventions is something to be discussed, but it seems to me that the equation of such methods with the resurrection, or even with making "better humans", is delusional and blasphemous.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2017, 09:56:13 AM »
Thank you for your helpful answer Rakovsky.
Thanks. Here is what 2 Thess. says:

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord
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Offline nothing

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2017, 09:57:38 AM »
What would it mean for a mortal to be immortal?
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Offline WPM

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2017, 10:17:52 AM »
What would it mean for a mortal to be immortal?

To be like Christ or God-like.

Offline WPM

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2017, 10:21:10 AM »
Thank you for your helpful answer Rakovsky.
Thanks. Here is what 2 Thess. says:

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord

I like to read the New Testament. Thanks

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2017, 10:37:28 AM »
What would it mean for a mortal to be immortal?

To become all flame.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 10:37:44 AM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Offline Indocern

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2017, 11:15:04 AM »
What would it mean for a mortal to be immortal?

To be more close to God just like angels.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 11:16:19 AM by Indocern »

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2017, 01:12:43 PM »
The Russian Orthodox philosopher Fyodorov proposed that mankind could cooperate with God in the work of the general resurrection through advances in medical technology- very similar to transhumanist fantasies but without the atheistic element.

That said, I think the question kind of misses what resurrection and immortality really are. Extending life, even indefinitely, through such technological means is really a prolongation and mitigation of corruption. The resurrection is something wholly different- the abolition of corruption. In Christ it was not accomplished by technological means but by the profound humility of Christ and the power of God. The body of the resurrection is not simply an augmented body as we have now, but is in quite a different state.

The appropriateness of particular technologies and medical interventions is something to be discussed, but it seems to me that the equation of such methods with the resurrection, or even with making "better humans", is delusional and blasphemous.

What would it mean for a mortal to be immortal?

To be like Christ or God-like.

+1000

Immortality in the Christian concept is not the indefinite prolongation of biological created life.  If that happens, good on us and the image of God in us.  However, TRUE immortality is uncreated, the partaking of the divine nature, TIMELESS, unimaginable, neither eye has seen nor ear heard, nor heart can fathom.  Therefore, the materialistic concept of "immortality" has nothing to do with Christian concept of the uncreated immortality of Christ.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2017, 01:26:55 PM »
No matter how much time the Second Coming takes, it would be the deadline for individual biological immortality to mean something.
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Offline nothing

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2017, 05:06:23 PM »
The Russian Orthodox philosopher Fyodorov proposed that mankind could cooperate with God in the work of the general resurrection through advances in medical technology- very similar to transhumanist fantasies but without the atheistic element.

That said, I think the question kind of misses what resurrection and immortality really are. Extending life, even indefinitely, through such technological means is really a prolongation and mitigation of corruption. The resurrection is something wholly different- the abolition of corruption. In Christ it was not accomplished by technological means but by the profound humility of Christ and the power of God. The body of the resurrection is not simply an augmented body as we have now, but is in quite a different state.

The appropriateness of particular technologies and medical interventions is something to be discussed, but it seems to me that the equation of such methods with the resurrection, or even with making "better humans", is delusional and blasphemous.

What would it mean for a mortal to be immortal?

To be like Christ or God-like.

+1000

Immortality in the Christian concept is not the indefinite prolongation of biological created life.  If that happens, good on us and the image of God in us.  However, TRUE immortality is uncreated, the partaking of the divine nature, TIMELESS, unimaginable, neither eye has seen nor ear heard, nor heart can fathom.  Therefore, the materialistic concept of "immortality" has nothing to do with Christian concept of the uncreated immortality of Christ.

So in other words it's inconceivable, surely such claims cannot be empirical. I'm still not sure what this means for us whose humanity is tied up with our mortality. We would cease to be the persons we are without the structure of being finite. Perhaps you want to argue that is the point of Christianity, to become a new creation by the gift of God's love. And to the OP such technologies would be the end of what makes us human.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 05:16:45 PM by nothing »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2017, 05:14:07 PM »
It's called deification.  It keeps our created integrity, but mysteriously raises us up and interweaves our very being with divinity.  Divinity is not empirical.  Therefore neither is immortality.

What it means to be human is to be united to the divine.  What the OP is talking about is semblance of the divine without any real eternal relationship with Him.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 05:15:56 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline nothing

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2017, 05:33:21 PM »
It's called deification.  It keeps our created integrity, but mysteriously raises us up and interweaves our very being with divinity.  Divinity is not empirical.  Therefore neither is immortality.

What it means to be human is to be united to the divine.  What the OP is talking about is semblance of the divine without any real eternal relationship with Him.
To be clear, I'm not arguing to bring that into the realm of empirical anyway. However what you have posted here, and please do not take this as snarky, reads like gibberish nonsense.

I really have no idea what you are saying and since you agree immortality (and divinity) is beyond anything humans could imagine, why care about it?
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2017, 05:36:11 PM »
Some people confuse the concept of immortality as understood by the Church with living forever under created means.  That's why I'm saying what I'm saying.  If the latter is achieved (hypothetically speaking), that does not disprove the gospel.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 05:37:14 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline nothing

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2017, 05:39:06 PM »
Some people confuse the concept of immortality as understood by the Church with living forever under created means.  That's why I'm saying what I'm saying.
Yes I understand that distinction, but I'm not replying to the transhumanist fantasy in the OP, I am asking you why care about something that is beyond all human conception?
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2017, 05:42:21 PM »
Because Christ manifested this to me.  I care because it's the gift of Christ.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Offline nothing

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2017, 05:51:17 PM »
Because Christ manifested this to me.  I care because it's the gift of Christ.
Mina this is baffling. You said "immortality is uncreated, timeless, unimaginable, etc" yet somehow claim Christ manifested this to you.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2017, 06:08:23 PM »
Yes, through the gospel by the Church, it is manifested to me and to all who receives it
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Indocern

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2017, 01:34:34 AM »
But why to bother you with thoughts about being a machine in human body. It doesn't matter anyway. The important is to become immortal, which is possible if you are saved.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 01:35:58 AM by Indocern »

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2017, 01:00:30 PM »
Huh?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Luke

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2017, 01:20:21 PM »
I suppose it may be possible for one to eventually live for thousands of years, but I agree with minasoliman and other posters in that eternity is not simply living forever.

Offline nothing

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Re: Physical Immortality
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2017, 07:44:20 PM »
edit nvm
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 07:50:20 PM by nothing »
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