Author Topic: Church Fathers on Usury  (Read 3086 times)

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Offline William T

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2017, 11:02:38 PM »
People become millionaires, even billionaires over interest, while their debitors lose everything. I'm not an expert in economics, but I imagine the market could allow the lending machine turn over more reasonable rates.


those are great questions, and a good line of thought...unfortunatley its a noble prize worthy question.  It's very difficult to answer, and the best thing we got is kind of refuting extremes right now and interesting speculative theories.

Best way to refute extremes:



BTW I've use a guillotine analogy as a negative analogy for an outlook that can't stand outliers.  So that's a good picture.  To be clear when I said "Extreme" it is probably closer to something as "ideal type" or "consequence of a limit case" it's an analytic method when looking at a particular feature in particular conditions of particular ideas and methods when applied in the real world, that's it.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 11:03:40 PM by William T »

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2017, 01:40:33 PM »
Even if someone assuredly calculated the most proper interest rates, they wouldn't be lowered, because supercapitalism.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 01:40:50 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2017, 02:22:15 PM »
Saw this and thought of this thread...

Quote
Question: For what kind of person should we not pray after he dies? Answer: For anyone who has a mistress and won’t break it off with her, and for anyone who collects interest on a loan (Ioasaph of Ephesos, Questions and Answers 44).

-- Anthony Kaldellis, A Cabinet of Byzantine Curiosities: Strange Tales and Surprising Facts from History's Most Orthodox Empire

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2018, 02:51:37 PM »
This article by DBH is worth a look, discussing the problem of usury and its prevalence in the New Testament, and how opposition to usury is embedded in the Lord's prayer. (Of course, as he sometimes does when making an important but neglected point, he takes it too far, as this article discusses)
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2018, 04:26:05 PM »
This article by DBH is worth a look, discussing the problem of usury and its prevalence in the New Testament, and how opposition to usury is embedded in the Lord's prayer. (Of course, as he sometimes does when making an important but neglected point, he takes it too far, as this article discusses)
Debt and sin really aren't the same thing. If someone is in need of funds. Do we call that person a sinner?

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2018, 04:37:55 PM »
This article by DBH is worth a look, discussing the problem of usury and its prevalence in the New Testament, and how opposition to usury is embedded in the Lord's prayer. (Of course, as he sometimes does when making an important but neglected point, he takes it too far, as this article discusses)
Debt and sin really aren't the same thing. If someone is in need of funds. Do we call that person a sinner?

I have a hard time believing you read that and came away thinking that debtors were being blamed.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2018, 05:04:35 PM »
This article by DBH is worth a look, discussing the problem of usury and its prevalence in the New Testament, and how opposition to usury is embedded in the Lord's prayer. (Of course, as he sometimes does when making an important but neglected point, he takes it too far, as this article discusses)
Debt and sin really aren't the same thing. If someone is in need of funds. Do we call that person a sinner?

I have a hard time believing you read that and came away thinking that debtors were being blamed.
I find a flawed argument is all. If we say that the lords prayer is about debt. Than we are essentially saying that the debtor is a sinner. "As we forgive others debts "
So who ever owes money is a sinner as well. I hope you see as much.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2018, 05:08:57 PM »
So you haven’t read or understood the article.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2018, 05:35:28 PM »
So you haven’t read or understood the article.
I skimmed through it. The problem with the article is making the lords prayer into a bartering prayer. I wpuld think that a prayer that the lord himself gave us would have more substance.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2018, 05:39:33 PM »
So you haven’t read or understood the article.
I skimmed through it. The problem with the article is making the lords prayer into a bartering prayer. I wpuld think that a prayer that the lord himself gave us would have more substance.

It's pretty obvious that the skim didn't go very deep.

And the rejoinder linked at the bottom addresses how all sorts of Biblical passages can have two readings.

But two readings doesn't mean we can just ignore the first.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2018, 08:25:10 PM »
So you haven’t read or understood the article.
I skimmed through it. The problem with the article is making the lords prayer into a bartering prayer. I wpuld think that a prayer that the lord himself gave us would have more substance.

It's pretty obvious that the skim didn't go very deep.
I dont know if I would trust everything DBH has to say. He is after all a universalist.

And the rejoinder linked at the bottom addresses how all sorts of Biblical passages can have two readings.

But two readings doesn't mean we can just ignore the first.
Isn't that the argument protestants use?
I don't trust DBH that much. He is a known universalist.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 08:28:24 PM by Tzimis »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2018, 08:26:27 PM »
Reading the Bible is the most Protestant thing you could possibly do!
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2018, 09:05:21 PM »
So you haven’t read or understood the article.
I skimmed through it. The problem with the article is making the lords prayer into a bartering prayer. I wpuld think that a prayer that the lord himself gave us would have more substance.

It's pretty obvious that the skim didn't go very deep.
I dont know if I would trust everything DBH has to say. He is after all a universalist.

And the rejoinder linked at the bottom addresses how all sorts of Biblical passages can have two readings.

But two readings doesn't mean we can just ignore the first.
Isn't that the argument protestants use?
I don't trust DBH that much. He is a known universalist.

Why is it that the Orthodox who think 'protestant' is the secret word to end a discussion are the ones who most resemble the fundamentalists of yore?
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2018, 09:36:59 PM »
So you haven’t read or understood the article.
I skimmed through it. The problem with the article is making the lords prayer into a bartering prayer. I wpuld think that a prayer that the lord himself gave us would have more substance.

It's pretty obvious that the skim didn't go very deep.
I dont know if I would trust everything DBH has to say. He is after all a universalist.

And the rejoinder linked at the bottom addresses how all sorts of Biblical passages can have two readings.

But two readings doesn't mean we can just ignore the first.
Isn't that the argument protestants use?
I don't trust DBH that much. He is a known universalist.

Why is it that the Orthodox who think 'protestant' is the secret word to end a discussion are the ones who most resemble the fundamentalists of yore?
Im not a fundamentalist.  I just know how to read greek.

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2018, 09:39:49 PM »
So you haven’t read or understood the article.
I skimmed through it. The problem with the article is making the lords prayer into a bartering prayer. I wpuld think that a prayer that the lord himself gave us would have more substance.

It's pretty obvious that the skim didn't go very deep.
I dont know if I would trust everything DBH has to say. He is after all a universalist.

And the rejoinder linked at the bottom addresses how all sorts of Biblical passages can have two readings.

But two readings doesn't mean we can just ignore the first.
Isn't that the argument protestants use?
I don't trust DBH that much. He is a known universalist.

Why is it that the Orthodox who think 'protestant' is the secret word to end a discussion are the ones who most resemble the fundamentalists of yore?
Im not a fundamentalist.  I just know how to read greek.

So do I.  Your theological ideas are largely wacky.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #60 on: June 14, 2018, 09:56:13 PM »
So you haven’t read or understood the article.
I skimmed through it. The problem with the article is making the lords prayer into a bartering prayer. I wpuld think that a prayer that the lord himself gave us would have more substance.

It's pretty obvious that the skim didn't go very deep.
I dont know if I would trust everything DBH has to say. He is after all a universalist.

And the rejoinder linked at the bottom addresses how all sorts of Biblical passages can have two readings.

But two readings doesn't mean we can just ignore the first.
Isn't that the argument protestants use?
I don't trust DBH that much. He is a known universalist.

Why is it that the Orthodox who think 'protestant' is the secret word to end a discussion are the ones who most resemble the fundamentalists of yore?
Im not a fundamentalist.  I just know how to read greek.

So do I.  Your theological ideas are largely wacky.
So does the word mean offences or debts?

Offline Agabus

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #61 on: June 14, 2018, 10:07:02 PM »
So you haven’t read or understood the article.
I skimmed through it. The problem with the article is making the lords prayer into a bartering prayer. I wpuld think that a prayer that the lord himself gave us would have more substance.

It's pretty obvious that the skim didn't go very deep.
I dont know if I would trust everything DBH has to say. He is after all a universalist.

And the rejoinder linked at the bottom addresses how all sorts of Biblical passages can have two readings.

But two readings doesn't mean we can just ignore the first.
Isn't that the argument protestants use?
I don't trust DBH that much. He is a known universalist.

Why is it that the Orthodox who think 'protestant' is the secret word to end a discussion are the ones who most resemble the fundamentalists of yore?
Im not a fundamentalist.  I just know how to read greek.

So do I.  Your theological ideas are largely wacky.
So does the word mean offences or debts?
Yes.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #62 on: June 14, 2018, 10:11:27 PM »
So you haven’t read or understood the article.
I skimmed through it. The problem with the article is making the lords prayer into a bartering prayer. I wpuld think that a prayer that the lord himself gave us would have more substance.

It's pretty obvious that the skim didn't go very deep.
I dont know if I would trust everything DBH has to say. He is after all a universalist.

And the rejoinder linked at the bottom addresses how all sorts of Biblical passages can have two readings.

But two readings doesn't mean we can just ignore the first.
Isn't that the argument protestants use?
I don't trust DBH that much. He is a known universalist.

Why is it that the Orthodox who think 'protestant' is the secret word to end a discussion are the ones who most resemble the fundamentalists of yore?
Im not a fundamentalist.  I just know how to read greek.

So do I.  Your theological ideas are largely wacky.
So does the word mean offences or debts?
Yes.
Reducing the lords prayer into a monetary transaction.  Priceless.

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #63 on: June 15, 2018, 12:10:50 AM »
So you haven’t read or understood the article.
I skimmed through it. The problem with the article is making the lords prayer into a bartering prayer. I wpuld think that a prayer that the lord himself gave us would have more substance.

It's pretty obvious that the skim didn't go very deep.
I dont know if I would trust everything DBH has to say. He is after all a universalist.

And the rejoinder linked at the bottom addresses how all sorts of Biblical passages can have two readings.

But two readings doesn't mean we can just ignore the first.
Isn't that the argument protestants use?
I don't trust DBH that much. He is a known universalist.

Why is it that the Orthodox who think 'protestant' is the secret word to end a discussion are the ones who most resemble the fundamentalists of yore?
Im not a fundamentalist.  I just know how to read greek.

So do I.  Your theological ideas are largely wacky.
So does the word mean offences or debts?
Yes.
Reducing the lords prayer into a monetary transaction.  Priceless.

More like you don’t understand the Lord’s Prayer.  That’s OK, as long as you are willing to learn and get yourself out of your way.

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #64 on: June 15, 2018, 12:23:24 AM »
I rather liked DBH's article, but as I wrote on my blog, I think that 1.) he doesn't appreciate the richness of the various spiritual exegeses on the prayer and 2.) as far as I can tell, these spiritual interpretations were not made out of some sort of conscious efforts to make the rich feel better about themselves throughout the centuries.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #65 on: June 15, 2018, 01:38:34 AM »
Does it matter if the soft pedaling was not done consciously?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #66 on: June 15, 2018, 12:49:37 PM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical)

Considering alot of bankers/wall street financiers are jewish maybe they should restart the jubilee.
It's only fair, since its their religious traditions, who are we to stand in the way of it....

Offline Agabus

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #67 on: June 15, 2018, 12:53:55 PM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical)

Considering alot of bankers/wall street financiers are jewish maybe they should restart the jubilee.
It's only fair, since its their religious traditions, who are we to stand in the way of it....

Sigh...
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #68 on: June 15, 2018, 01:28:46 PM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical)

Considering alot of bankers/wall street financiers are jewish maybe they should restart the jubilee.
It's only fair, since its their religious traditions, who are we to stand in the way of it....

Considering this country claims to be Christian (when it's in the government's self-interest to do so), maybe we should restart it.




But yes, Agabus's sigh, seconded.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #69 on: June 15, 2018, 01:50:08 PM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical)

Considering alot of bankers/wall street financiers are jewish maybe they should restart the jubilee.
It's only fair, since its their religious traditions, who are we to stand in the way of it....

Be careful, or I may have to circumcise your posting rights.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #70 on: June 15, 2018, 02:45:37 PM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical)

Considering alot of bankers/wall street financiers are jewish maybe they should restart the jubilee.
It's only fair, since its their religious traditions, who are we to stand in the way of it....

Considering this country claims to be Christian (when it's in the government's self-interest to do so), maybe we should restart it.




But yes, Agabus's sigh, seconded.
The country is neck deep in usery.  In fact the whole world is. Its just a matter of time before the bubble bursts.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #71 on: June 15, 2018, 02:48:36 PM »
So you haven’t read or understood the article.
I skimmed through it. The problem with the article is making the lords prayer into a bartering prayer. I wpuld think that a prayer that the lord himself gave us would have more substance.

It's pretty obvious that the skim didn't go very deep.
I dont know if I would trust everything DBH has to say. He is after all a universalist.

And the rejoinder linked at the bottom addresses how all sorts of Biblical passages can have two readings.

But two readings doesn't mean we can just ignore the first.
Isn't that the argument protestants use?
I don't trust DBH that much. He is a known universalist.

Why is it that the Orthodox who think 'protestant' is the secret word to end a discussion are the ones who most resemble the fundamentalists of yore?
Im not a fundamentalist.  I just know how to read greek.

So do I.  Your theological ideas are largely wacky.
So does the word mean offences or debts?
Yes.
Reducing the lords prayer into a monetary transaction.  Priceless.

More like you don’t understand the Lord’s Prayer.  That’s OK, as long as you are willing to learn and get yourself out of your way.
A situation of convenience manipulates words . I understand perfectly.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 02:49:54 PM by Tzimis »

Offline Agabus

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #72 on: June 15, 2018, 02:52:04 PM »
So you haven’t read or understood the article.
I skimmed through it. The problem with the article is making the lords prayer into a bartering prayer. I wpuld think that a prayer that the lord himself gave us would have more substance.

It's pretty obvious that the skim didn't go very deep.
I dont know if I would trust everything DBH has to say. He is after all a universalist.

And the rejoinder linked at the bottom addresses how all sorts of Biblical passages can have two readings.

But two readings doesn't mean we can just ignore the first.
Isn't that the argument protestants use?
I don't trust DBH that much. He is a known universalist.

Why is it that the Orthodox who think 'protestant' is the secret word to end a discussion are the ones who most resemble the fundamentalists of yore?
Im not a fundamentalist.  I just know how to read greek.

So do I.  Your theological ideas are largely wacky.
So does the word mean offences or debts?
Yes.
Reducing the lords prayer into a monetary transaction.  Priceless.

More like you don’t understand the Lord’s Prayer.  That’s OK, as long as you are willing to learn and get yourself out of your way.
A situation of convenience manipulates words . I understand perfectly.

It's not a situation of convenience to say there's more than one way to read a text and that both of them can be true.

Otherwise the Fathers wrote themselves into a lot of trouble.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #73 on: June 15, 2018, 03:05:26 PM »
So you haven’t read or understood the article.
I skimmed through it. The problem with the article is making the lords prayer into a bartering prayer. I wpuld think that a prayer that the lord himself gave us would have more substance.

It's pretty obvious that the skim didn't go very deep.
I dont know if I would trust everything DBH has to say. He is after all a universalist.

And the rejoinder linked at the bottom addresses how all sorts of Biblical passages can have two readings.

But two readings doesn't mean we can just ignore the first.
Isn't that the argument protestants use?
I don't trust DBH that much. He is a known universalist.

Why is it that the Orthodox who think 'protestant' is the secret word to end a discussion are the ones who most resemble the fundamentalists of yore?
Im not a fundamentalist.  I just know how to read greek.

So do I.  Your theological ideas are largely wacky.
So does the word mean offences or debts?
Yes.
Reducing the lords prayer into a monetary transaction.  Priceless.

More like you don’t understand the Lord’s Prayer.  That’s OK, as long as you are willing to learn and get yourself out of your way.
A situation of convenience manipulates words . I understand perfectly.

It's not a situation of convenience to say there's more than one way to read a text and that both of them can be true.

Otherwise the Fathers wrote themselves into a lot of trouble.
The fathers never wrote what your implying.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #74 on: June 15, 2018, 03:20:21 PM »
So you haven’t read or understood the article.
I skimmed through it. The problem with the article is making the lords prayer into a bartering prayer. I wpuld think that a prayer that the lord himself gave us would have more substance.

It's pretty obvious that the skim didn't go very deep.
I dont know if I would trust everything DBH has to say. He is after all a universalist.

And the rejoinder linked at the bottom addresses how all sorts of Biblical passages can have two readings.

But two readings doesn't mean we can just ignore the first.
Isn't that the argument protestants use?
I don't trust DBH that much. He is a known universalist.

Why is it that the Orthodox who think 'protestant' is the secret word to end a discussion are the ones who most resemble the fundamentalists of yore?
Im not a fundamentalist.  I just know how to read greek.

So do I.  Your theological ideas are largely wacky.
So does the word mean offences or debts?
Yes.
Reducing the lords prayer into a monetary transaction.  Priceless.

More like you don’t understand the Lord’s Prayer.  That’s OK, as long as you are willing to learn and get yourself out of your way.
A situation of convenience manipulates words . I understand perfectly.

It's not a situation of convenience to say there's more than one way to read a text and that both of them can be true.

Otherwise the Fathers wrote themselves into a lot of trouble.
The fathers never wrote what your implying.

We're talking past each other.

I'm saying it's a technique the Fathers used.

My point being: what's true is true. Reading A can be true. Reading B can be true. Reading C may be wrong, but it doesn't make Reading A and B wrong.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #75 on: June 15, 2018, 03:32:21 PM »
So you haven’t read or understood the article.
I skimmed through it. The problem with the article is making the lords prayer into a bartering prayer. I wpuld think that a prayer that the lord himself gave us would have more substance.

It's pretty obvious that the skim didn't go very deep.
I dont know if I would trust everything DBH has to say. He is after all a universalist.

And the rejoinder linked at the bottom addresses how all sorts of Biblical passages can have two readings.

But two readings doesn't mean we can just ignore the first.
Isn't that the argument protestants use?
I don't trust DBH that much. He is a known universalist.

Why is it that the Orthodox who think 'protestant' is the secret word to end a discussion are the ones who most resemble the fundamentalists of yore?
Im not a fundamentalist.  I just know how to read greek.

So do I.  Your theological ideas are largely wacky.
So does the word mean offences or debts?
Yes.
Reducing the lords prayer into a monetary transaction.  Priceless.

More like you don’t understand the Lord’s Prayer.  That’s OK, as long as you are willing to learn and get yourself out of your way.
A situation of convenience manipulates words . I understand perfectly.

It's not a situation of convenience to say there's more than one way to read a text and that both of them can be true.

Otherwise the Fathers wrote themselves into a lot of trouble.
The fathers never wrote what your implying.

We're talking past each other.

I'm saying it's a technique the Fathers used.

My point being: what's true is true. Reading A can be true. Reading B can be true. Reading C may be wrong, but it doesn't make Reading A and B wrong.
I know the technique very well but, that doesn't mean that the fathers came up with the same proposition as you.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #76 on: June 15, 2018, 03:38:42 PM »
So you haven’t read or understood the article.
I skimmed through it. The problem with the article is making the lords prayer into a bartering prayer. I wpuld think that a prayer that the lord himself gave us would have more substance.

It's pretty obvious that the skim didn't go very deep.
I dont know if I would trust everything DBH has to say. He is after all a universalist.

And the rejoinder linked at the bottom addresses how all sorts of Biblical passages can have two readings.

But two readings doesn't mean we can just ignore the first.
Isn't that the argument protestants use?
I don't trust DBH that much. He is a known universalist.

Why is it that the Orthodox who think 'protestant' is the secret word to end a discussion are the ones who most resemble the fundamentalists of yore?
Im not a fundamentalist.  I just know how to read greek.

So do I.  Your theological ideas are largely wacky.
So does the word mean offences or debts?
Yes.
Reducing the lords prayer into a monetary transaction.  Priceless.

More like you don’t understand the Lord’s Prayer.  That’s OK, as long as you are willing to learn and get yourself out of your way.
A situation of convenience manipulates words . I understand perfectly.

It's not a situation of convenience to say there's more than one way to read a text and that both of them can be true.

Otherwise the Fathers wrote themselves into a lot of trouble.
The fathers never wrote what your implying.

We're talking past each other.

I'm saying it's a technique the Fathers used.

My point being: what's true is true. Reading A can be true. Reading B can be true. Reading C may be wrong, but it doesn't make Reading A and B wrong.
I know the technique very well but, that doesn't mean that the fathers came up with the same proposition as you.

I'm betting if someone had whispered it in St. Chrysostom's ear, he would have run with it.

I don't know why it's so difficult for you to swallow the idea that:

a). "Debts" could be understood as spiritual debts

BUT

b). A first century CE audience that had been forced into penury (and who had been forcing people into penury) would have also understood that the metaphor has some literal implications as well in light of their own previously revealed law

AND

c). Jesus could have meant both

BUT

d). As time and history have distanced us from the first century CE, we have lost a lot of understanding of the literal implications because time lends itself to forgetfulness but also because forgiving spiritual debts is a lot easier than forgiving literal debts for our greedy souls.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #77 on: June 15, 2018, 03:46:21 PM »
So you haven’t read or understood the article.
I skimmed through it. The problem with the article is making the lords prayer into a bartering prayer. I wpuld think that a prayer that the lord himself gave us would have more substance.

It's pretty obvious that the skim didn't go very deep.
I dont know if I would trust everything DBH has to say. He is after all a universalist.

And the rejoinder linked at the bottom addresses how all sorts of Biblical passages can have two readings.

But two readings doesn't mean we can just ignore the first.
Isn't that the argument protestants use?
I don't trust DBH that much. He is a known universalist.

Why is it that the Orthodox who think 'protestant' is the secret word to end a discussion are the ones who most resemble the fundamentalists of yore?
Im not a fundamentalist.  I just know how to read greek.

So do I.  Your theological ideas are largely wacky.
So does the word mean offences or debts?
Yes.
Reducing the lords prayer into a monetary transaction.  Priceless.

More like you don’t understand the Lord’s Prayer.  That’s OK, as long as you are willing to learn and get yourself out of your way.
A situation of convenience manipulates words . I understand perfectly.

It's not a situation of convenience to say there's more than one way to read a text and that both of them can be true.

Otherwise the Fathers wrote themselves into a lot of trouble.
The fathers never wrote what your implying.

We're talking past each other.

I'm saying it's a technique the Fathers used.

My point being: what's true is true. Reading A can be true. Reading B can be true. Reading C may be wrong, but it doesn't make Reading A and B wrong.
I know the technique very well but, that doesn't mean that the fathers came up with the same proposition as you.

I'm betting if someone had whispered it in St. Chrysostom's ear, he would have run with it.

I don't know why it's so difficult for you to swallow the idea that:

a). "Debts" could be understood as spiritual debts

BUT

b). A first century CE audience that had been forced into penury (and who had been forcing people into penury) would have also understood that the metaphor has some literal implications as well in light of their own previously revealed law

AND

c). Jesus could have meant both

BUT

d). As time and history have distanced us from the first century CE, we have lost a lot of understanding of the literal implications because time lends itself to forgetfulness but also because forgiving spiritual debts is a lot easier than forgiving literal debts for our greedy souls.

I hate credit card companies more than you. Trust me. Today its easier to be entrapped. First thing one must know is to never finance a depreciating asset. 

Offline Agabus

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #78 on: June 15, 2018, 03:53:06 PM »
I hate credit card companies more than you. Trust me.

LOL. At last we find common ground. Although now we can argue about who has the most hate in their hearts for AmEx.

Only by the grace of God was I able to wriggle out from under that heel.


*****


You know, relevant to this discussion, is that in the Sermon on the Mount — only a few verses after "Blessed are the poor" — Jesus says to lend without expecting repayment, which is a funny understanding of lending.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #79 on: June 15, 2018, 04:04:56 PM »
I hate credit card companies more than you. Trust me.

LOL. At last we find common ground. Although now we can argue about who has the most hate in their hearts for AmEx.

Only by the grace of God was I able to wriggle out from under that heel.


*****


You know, relevant to this discussion, is that in the Sermon on the Mount — only a few verses after "Blessed are the poor" — Jesus says to lend without expecting repayment, which is a funny understanding of lending.
Being poor isn't fun but i have to say. Some of the best years of my life.
You know what us greeks say. We can live good with a little or a lot.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 04:06:03 PM by Tzimis »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #80 on: June 15, 2018, 04:40:44 PM »
So you haven’t read or understood the article.
I skimmed through it. The problem with the article is making the lords prayer into a bartering prayer. I wpuld think that a prayer that the lord himself gave us would have more substance.

It's pretty obvious that the skim didn't go very deep.
I dont know if I would trust everything DBH has to say. He is after all a universalist.

And the rejoinder linked at the bottom addresses how all sorts of Biblical passages can have two readings.

But two readings doesn't mean we can just ignore the first.
Isn't that the argument protestants use?
I don't trust DBH that much. He is a known universalist.

Why is it that the Orthodox who think 'protestant' is the secret word to end a discussion are the ones who most resemble the fundamentalists of yore?
Im not a fundamentalist.  I just know how to read greek.

So do I.  Your theological ideas are largely wacky.
So does the word mean offences or debts?
Yes.
Reducing the lords prayer into a monetary transaction.  Priceless.

More like you don’t understand the Lord’s Prayer.  That’s OK, as long as you are willing to learn and get yourself out of your way.
A situation of convenience manipulates words . I understand perfectly.

It's not a situation of convenience to say there's more than one way to read a text and that both of them can be true.

Otherwise the Fathers wrote themselves into a lot of trouble.
The fathers never wrote what your implying.

We're talking past each other.

I'm saying it's a technique the Fathers used.

My point being: what's true is true. Reading A can be true. Reading B can be true. Reading C may be wrong, but it doesn't make Reading A and B wrong.
I know the technique very well but, that doesn't mean that the fathers came up with the same proposition as you.

I'm betting if someone had whispered it in St. Chrysostom's ear, he would have run with it.

I don't know why it's so difficult for you to swallow the idea that:

a). "Debts" could be understood as spiritual debts

BUT

b). A first century CE audience that had been forced into penury (and who had been forcing people into penury) would have also understood that the metaphor has some literal implications as well in light of their own previously revealed law

AND

c). Jesus could have meant both

BUT

d). As time and history have distanced us from the first century CE, we have lost a lot of understanding of the literal implications because time lends itself to forgetfulness but also because forgiving spiritual debts is a lot easier than forgiving literal debts for our greedy souls.

Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #81 on: June 16, 2018, 10:07:53 AM »
remember when Jesus went to the temple with his disciples and he saw all the rich Pharisees showing off all their money by putting it in the money boxes but a poor woman only put two coins and everyone looked at her and Jesus said that she had put more money in the money box than any of the Pharisees because the Pharisees only used a portion of their wealth while the woman had put in all she had!
"Two Romes fell, a third stands, and there will not be a fourth one."—Philotheus of Pskov

Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #82 on: June 16, 2018, 11:36:30 AM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical)

Considering alot of bankers/wall street financiers are jewish maybe they should restart the jubilee.
It's only fair, since its their religious traditions, who are we to stand in the way of it....

Be careful, or I may have to circumcise your posting rights.

I was just brining up jubilee, and how debt forgiveness was law yearssssssss ago.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical)

Considering alot of bankers/wall street financiers are jewish maybe they should restart the jubilee.
It's only fair, since its their religious traditions, who are we to stand in the way of it....

Considering this country claims to be Christian (when it's in the government's self-interest to do so), maybe we should restart it.





Maybe we should, they've squashed the American dream and replaced it with endless debt courtesy of the bankers who push credit cards, high interest loans, student loans, etc. WE THE PEOPLE, are supposed to be in control right?
Wouldn't it benefit us to implement Jubilee again?

No reason to SIGH, we all know WE THE PEOPLE dont run anything abd are just the new plebiscites

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #83 on: June 16, 2018, 06:41:11 PM »
It would be a benefit, yes. Agabus and I sigh at the fact that for you evil bankers = (((TEH JOOOS!)))
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #84 on: June 17, 2018, 12:16:21 PM »
***subscribed***
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Offline Brilko

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #85 on: June 17, 2018, 05:09:03 PM »
Debt forgiveness is law in the US. It’s not automatic like a jubilee. Bankruptcy. I did one. I only had unsecured debts. Everything I owned fell within the exemptions so the creditors got nothing. There was no possibility of my being sent to prison.

Most of my debt was due to my own foolishness, yet I skated out from under it. If I could trade my other problems for bringing the debt back, I’d have zero hesitation.

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #86 on: June 17, 2018, 05:12:37 PM »
Debt forgiveness is law in the US. It’s not automatic like a jubilee. Bankruptcy. I did one. I only had unsecured debts. Everything I owned fell within the exemptions so the creditors got nothing. There was no possibility of my being sent to prison.

Most of my debt was due to my own foolishness, yet I skated out from under it. If I could trade my other problems for bringing the debt back, I’d have zero hesitation.

You shouldn't have to choose between debt and bankruptcy. It's not right.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #87 on: June 18, 2018, 10:26:06 AM »
Debt forgiveness is law in the US. It’s not automatic like a jubilee. Bankruptcy. I did one. I only had unsecured debts. Everything I owned fell within the exemptions so the creditors got nothing. There was no possibility of my being sent to prison.

Most of my debt was due to my own foolishness, yet I skated out from under it. If I could trade my other problems for bringing the debt back, I’d have zero hesitation.

You shouldn't have to choose between debt and bankruptcy. It's not right.

I'm sure high interest played a part in his bankruptcy. Thats the issue, his credit and buying power is hampered for 7-10 years, as with job prospects, or renting a home,  its all affected by it.
       

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Re: Church Fathers on Usury
« Reply #88 on: June 18, 2018, 01:36:48 PM »
Thread locked pending review.