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Author Topic: Questions regarding Old Calendarist Churches  (Read 616 times) Average Rating: 0
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Khomes
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« on: August 12, 2014, 02:04:46 AM »

hey gang,

I have a question about the old calendarist churches. So it's all very confusing as I have heard it described as alphabet orthodoxy, which appears to be true. my specific questions are as follows:

1. What is the difference between HOTCA and HOCNA?

2. What is GOC, specifically GOC-K

3. Is GOC-K in communion with either of those groups?

4. I hear it also called the metropolia, what is that?

5. where does Metropolitan John of New York fit into this?

6. Where does SiR also fit into this.

7. Is there any other "GOC" groups"

8. Basically, who is in communion with who?


from my reading it appears that GOC-K is in communion with Hotca but I am unsure of that. and Metropolitan John of New York is in the GOC-K. basically a little insight and a little history would be great. I am just trying to understand this situation a tad bit better. thanks again team.
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« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2014, 02:29:41 AM »

Messy, eh?

I don't think the Metropolia fits in your list -- "one of these is not like the others" -- but what do I know.
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« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2014, 02:34:44 AM »

Messy, eh?

I don't think the Metropolia fits in your list -- "one of these is not like the others" -- but what do I know.

haha, I got ya. Yeah I was just curious and asking for knowledge sake.
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« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2014, 08:25:18 AM »

hey gang,

I have a question about the old calendarist churches. So it's all very confusing as I have heard it described as alphabet orthodoxy, which appears to be true.

First of all, good luck.  It is very confusing and the ground is regularly shifting with groups joining and leaving each other, new doctrinal controversies, etc.  There are many who have nearly lost their minds trying to sort all of this out.   

my specific questions are as follows:

1.   What is the difference between HOTCA and HOCNA?
In Greece, for a long time there were two main Old Calendarist groups, the “Matthewites” and the “Florinites”.  There are now a large number of Old Calendarist groups that identify as either Matthewites (from Bp. Matthew of Bresthena) or Florinites (from Met Chrysostom of Florina).  In the 1970s, the Florinites were under Abp Auxentius but eventually there was a division in that synod, a few bishops stayed with Abp Auxentius and others went under Abp Chrysostom (Kiousis).  HOCNA is a group of Greek Old Calendarists that left ROCOR in 1986 and joined Abp Auxentius after Abp Chrysostom (Kiousis) had a separate synod.  HOTCA is an American synod started by Met Petros of Astoria who himself had been under the Metropolia (that’s what the OCA used to be called), ROCOR, and finally was under Abp Chrysostom (Kiousis) in Greece.  HOTCA and HOCNA are not in communion and never have been.  However, over the past few years, three bishops from HOCNA left and joined HOTCA and the present first hierarch of HOTCA, and successor to Met Petros of Astoria, is one of the former bishops of HOCNA.   

2.   What is GOC, specifically GOC-K
GOC stands for “Genuine Orthodox Christians”, which is a term used by groups who have broken communion with the Orthodox patriarchates over such things as the adoption of the New Calendar by some local churches or the subjugation of local hierarchies under the Soviet authorities during the Soviet era.  Since there are many different groups which use this name for themselves and yet are not in communion with each other, other letters and words are added to distinguish one from the other.  GOC-K refers to those who call themselves “GOC” but are under Abp Kallinkos of Athens, successor to Abp Chrysostom (Kiousis).

3.   Is GOC-K in communion with either of those groups?
HOTCA is under GOC-K but HOCNA is not in communion with either.

4.   I hear it also called the metropolia, what is that?

This term used to be used to refer to the OCA before they were called the OCA in the 1970s but it seems that the term may be used to refer to Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles under Metropolitan John of New York now.

5.   where does Metropolitan John of New York fit into this?
His group used to be under the Synod of Milan which is an Old Calendar group that was started by the same Abp. Auxentius that received those who left ROCOR in 1986 and later became HOCNA.  The Milan Synod is under Met Evloghios who used to be a priest in the Moscow Patriarchate.  Met John used to be part of this synod but broke communion with him a couple of years ago.  Metropolitan John is not in communion with HOCNA or HOTCA/GOC-K.

6.   Where does SiR also fit into this.
This group of Old Calendarists was started in the 1980s but did not remain in communion with either Abp Auxentius or Abp Chrysostom (Kiousis) but ended up under Met Cyprian of Fili as a separate synod that referred to themselves as the Synod in Resistance.  The Synod in Resistance just this year joined the GOC-K that HOTCA is under after being separate from them for thirty years.   

7.   Is there any other "GOC" groups"
There are many groups who use this title.  To name a few, there is the GOC-K who was already mentioned, then the GOC under Abp Macarius of Athens (HOCNA has recently joined them), the GOC under Archbishop Gregory of Colorado who used to be in several different other GOCs and now is in communion with only one bishop in the world who resides at the same monastery as he, and the Old Calendarists under Met Angelos (Genuine Orthodox Church of the Patristic Calendar) that Met John (Lobue) of New York is in communion with.  There are also a few groups from the Matthewite side that uses “GOC”, including a synod under Abp Stephanos of Athens (successor to Abp Nicholas of Athens), a synod under Met Kyrikos, and at least one or two others.   

8.   Basically, who is in communion with who?
SiR and HOTCA are under GOC-K, HOCNA is under Abp Macarius of Athens, the GOC of the Patristic Calendar is in communion with Met John (Lobue) of New York, Abp Gregory of Colorado is not in communion with anyone outside of his own monastery, and the different Matthewite groups are not in communion with each other or with anyone else.  There are other groups as well, but these are the few that come to mind at the moment. 

None of the groups mentioned in this post are in communion with the Patriarchates of Constantinople, Jerusalem, Serbia, Moscow, Antioch, Alexandria, etc.

To be honest, the histories of these groups are extremely messy and hard to sort out and everything above is very simplified without getting into details.  Every group has some justification for breaking off from whoever they left.  Obviously, when a schism occurs, the two sides will disagree on the accuracy of certain allegations, on what exactly took place, etc., so you will encounter a lot of contradictory information about historical events without an easy way to resolve these contradictions.  Those who belong any of these groups believe they are following the Holy Fathers.  Those who are not with them believe otherwise and see among them how schism begets schism just like “the Protestants, the Old Believers, and all those who are abandoned by the Holy Spirit” in the words of one contemporary elder. 
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« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2014, 08:25:46 AM »

The former SiR is now part of GOC-K, who are in communion with ROCA, the Romanian Old Calendarists and from news of a concelebration between ROCA, noted on their website, the Bulgarian Old Calendarists.

An accessible statement on the position of these groups may found on the Bulgarian website and a different but similar one on the old SiR websites.

All of these groups appear to regard the Milan Synod and it's off-shoots as 'vagante'.

Don't know if that begins to answer your question, at least partly.
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« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2014, 08:55:21 AM »

As I mentioned, there are a number of other groups that use "Genuine" in their name or "True Orthodox" or at least identify as the same kind of group.  Santagranddad mentioned his ROCA that is under Met Agathangel which left ROCOR after ROCOR reunited with the Moscow Patriarchate.  There are several other Russian groups who claim to be the "true ROCOR" or the true successors of the "Catacomb Church" in Russia that existed under the Soviets.  There is ROCA that was just mentioned, then the Russian True Orthodox Church (RTOC) and Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church (ROAC).  Both of these were at one time connected to ROCOR.  There are also different competing Russian Orthodox Church in Exile (ROCIE) groups that originate from Met Vitaly who retired years ago as the Metropolitan of ROCOR and then started a separate synod which then divided after his repose.  None of these Russian groups are in communion with each other.
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« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2014, 09:15:17 PM »


It is very confusing and the ground is regularly shifting with groups joining and leaving each other, new doctrinal controversies, etc.    


So true.


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« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2014, 09:29:01 PM »


new doctrinal controversies, etc.    


Really, I thought development of doctrines was only found outside of Orthodox Christianity since Christ delivered the Holy Unchanging Faith to His Apostles for all people and all times.

No, it is not new doctrinal controversies, but the old pan-heresy of Ecumenism rearing its head once again, so this is what is causing the fractures.

Grace is needed to heal this mother of all division, but the definition of Grace is causing the division.

But, you may ask, isn't grace part of God's Divine Energies? That it is.

However, there is a difference between mysteriological and actual grace, and how many angels can sit on the head of a needle.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2014, 09:45:03 PM »


new doctrinal controversies, etc.    


Really, I thought development of doctrines was only found outside of Orthodox Christianity since Christ delivered the Holy Unchanging Faith to His Apostles for all people and all times.

No, it is not new doctrinal controversies, but the old pan-heresy of Ecumenism rearing its head once again, so this is what is causing the fractures.

Grace is needed to heal this mother of all division, but the definition of Grace is causing the division.

But, you may ask, isn't grace part of God's Divine Energies? That it is.

However, there is a difference between mysteriological and actual grace, and how many angels can sit on the head of a needle.   Roll Eyes

Well, new doctrinal controversies and new controversies which just reignite old controversies. For instance, the Awake Sleeper controversy in HOCNA, the Name Worshipping controversy in HOCNA and in some Russian "True" groups, the controversy over whether there is grace in "World Orthodoxy", the Uncreated Church controversy and Neo-Iconoclast controversy among the Matthewites, etc.  These major controversies constantly come up in these groups, resulting in new schisms, reallignments, etc.
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« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2014, 11:02:13 PM »

Most of your questions have been answered fairly well. Just to clear some things up, "GOC" (Genuine Orthodox Church) and "TOC" (Traditional Orthodox Church) are names used by true Orthodox Christians and can refer to the Church at large, or any of the individual true Orthodox synods. No one synod has the sole claim on the term GOC or TOC, although many synods incorporate these names into the official name of their synods.

These schisms are a sad reality that the Church faces today. We pray in the liturgy of St. Basil for God to quench the schisms of the Church, and I pray for this to happen. Schisms have faced the Church since the earliest times, as we can read in St. Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, although it was not nearly this bad.

The situation has gotten better within the past decade, with synods uniting and reuniting with each other, but it still has a long way to go. I remember hearing a few years ago of two TO churches in America that were not in communion with each other but were located next to each other. After both churches would have liturgy at their churches, they would gather together to share a common meal with each other. And it is not unheard of for laypeople, when traveling or after moving their homes, to attend a TO church that may belong to a different synod not in communion with their own, and still be allowed to receive the sacraments. Again, this is not a perfect situation, but it is not as bad as people try to make it out to be. Many of these TO synods have faced/are still facing persecution from their local governments and from others that belong to the State churches, especially in places like Serbia, Romania, and Greece.

1. What is the difference between HOTCA and HOCNA?
Jah777 answered this question well. The only thing to clear up is that HOTCA is not under the GOC-K; HOTCA is the GOC-K located in America. When the GOC-K established parishes in America, for legal purposes, they incorporated their name as the Hellenic Orthodox Traditionalist Church in America (HOTCA). But rarely anyone in this synod refers to themselves as "HOTCA." Instead, they refer to their synod as the "GOC-K" or the "GOC" for short, the "K" standing for Archbishop Kallinikos, who is the first hierarch of this synod.

Regarding HOCNA, a few years ago, HOCNA's bishops began teaching a heresy known as "name-worshiping." It is due to this heresy, along with scandals in HOCNAs past, that has led to many of HOCNAs faithful (including priests, monastics, parishes, and even a whole diocese) to leave HOCNA and join the GOC-K in America. And it is due to this heresy that most TO Christians do not view HOCNA as being a TO synod anymore.

4. I hear it also called the metropolia, what is that?

5. where does Metropolitan John of New York fit into this?

The only TO synod I know of that has been referred to as the Metropolia is the synod that I belong to under Metropolitan John of New York. Metropolitan John is not under the GOC-K and is not in communion with the GOC-K. We were granted autonomy by the synod commonly referred to as the Milan synod. The official name given to our synod was the "Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles," hence why some have referred to it as the "Metropolia." Unfortunately the Milan synod, after granting us autonomy, broke communion with us and our sister synods in an attempt to unite with the Moscow Patriarchate, therefore leaving true Orthodoxy. After this attempt failed, the Milan synod basically fell apart. I don't know if the Milan synod still exists or not, but I have seen fairly recent pictures of a couple of bishops from the former Milan synod still serving.

from my reading it appears that GOC-K is in communion with Hotca but I am unsure of that. and Metropolitan John of New York is in the GOC-K. basically a little insight and a little history would be great. I am just trying to understand this situation a tad bit better. thanks again team.

There hasn't been much written regarding the history of most TOC synods. HOCNA wrote a book called The Struggle Against Ecumenism that, although it has a slight HOCNA bias, does a great job explaining the history of the Greek Old Calendarists. It includes many of the historical documents in the appendix too. You can view the order form here: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BzJKrDVZPwcvUU5IRU53QmtONlE/edit

Deacon Joseph Suaiden of the synod I belong to wrote a book on the history of the Milan synod, as well as our current synod under Metropolitan John of New York, which you can purchase here: http://www.lulu.com/us/en/shop/joseph-suaiden/lux-veritatis-a-history-of-the-autonomous-orthodox-metropolia-of-western-europe-and-the-americas/ebook/product-17480670.html

You can get an insight of the Romanian Old Calendar Church by checking out the life of St. Glicherie here: http://www.hotca.org/pdf/stglicherie.pdf
Or you can or this book which gives the history of the Romanian Old Calendar Church: http://www.ctosonline.org/oldcal/RU.html

The true Orthodox directory for the USA includes links for all of the TOC synods that have a presence in America. It hasn't been updated in awhile (as the Synod in Resistance has now united with the GOC-K) but you can click on the links to any of the synod's websites which will have more information if you're interested: http://trueorthodoxdirectory.us/

Two websites that I have found very useful for the articles that they post are the following, both of which are websites of the GOC-K:
http://hotca.org/
http://www.hsir.org/index-en.html

To say that many have "lost their minds" trying to figure out the TOC is a gross exaggeration of the matter. Yes, it is not all rainbows and sunshine in the TOC. But most of the faithful that I have met are not focused on the politics of the TOC, or who is in communion with who; rather, most people that I have met are focused on living an Orthodox life and uniting with Christ in His Church.

Also, I do not know of any synod, or group of synods, that claims to be the only TO synod and all the other TO synods as being false, except for Archbishop Gregory of Colorado's synod. Most of the divisions among the different TO synods are due to historical circumstances, misunderstandings, or persecutions. My Metropolitan in the past has had friendly relations with different hierarchs in ROCOR and even attended St. Philaret's glorification. I have visited a monastery of a different TO synod not in communion with my own and prayed with the monks there. I'm not making excuses for the divisions among us since these divisions are a mockery of how the Church is called to be; but rather, I'm trying to portray what the divisions are actually like.
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« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2014, 12:10:37 AM »

From what group or groups were these men (Met. John and Abp. Gregory) converts? Are many of the flock converts too?
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« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2014, 12:21:38 AM »

This recent book explains the situation very well without the polemics:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,59989.0.html
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« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2014, 03:02:50 AM »

There is no State Churches in "places like Serbia and Romania".
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« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2014, 06:53:48 AM »

From what group or groups were these men (Met. John and Abp. Gregory) converts? Are many of the flock converts too?

Met. John used to be a Roman Catholic. And if I were to guess, I'd say that most of the flock are converts too.

I don't know about Abp. Gregory though.
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« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2014, 07:14:29 AM »

From what group or groups were these men (Met. John and Abp. Gregory) converts? Are many of the flock converts too?

Met. John used to be a Roman Catholic. And if I were to guess, I'd say that most of the flock are converts too.

I don't know about Abp. Gregory though.

I'm pretty sure Abp. Gregory was raised Antiochian and then joined ROCOR in the 1960s, and then joined different "True" and "Genuine" groups after that.  With regard your question about "most of the flock" of Abp Gregory, he really doesn't have enough of a flock to speak of "most".  Of the small flock that he has, I would suspect that most are converts, but I do not have any statistics on this. 
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« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2014, 09:21:45 AM »

http://theorthodoxchurch.info/main/church/non-canonical-orthodox-churches/

Check this out.  You can thank me later  Cool
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« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2014, 09:27:17 AM »


Even that is quite dated by this time.  Such lists definitely need time stamps since the ground is constantly shifting.
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« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2014, 12:14:45 PM »

From what group or groups were these men (Met. John and Abp. Gregory) converts? Are many of the flock converts too?

Met. John used to be a Roman Catholic. And if I were to guess, I'd say that most of the flock are converts too.

I don't know about Abp. Gregory though.

I'm pretty sure Abp. Gregory was raised Antiochian and then joined ROCOR in the 1960s, and then joined different "True" and "Genuine" groups after that.  With regard your question about "most of the flock" of Abp Gregory, he really doesn't have enough of a flock to speak of "most".  Of the small flock that he has, I would suspect that most are converts, but I do not have any statistics on this. 

With the name "Robert George" and that little nose and ruddy complexion, I'm doubting he is Syrian by descent. But it is possible. Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2014, 12:18:49 PM »

From what group or groups were these men (Met. John and Abp. Gregory) converts? Are many of the flock converts too?

Met. John used to be a Roman Catholic. And if I were to guess, I'd say that most of the flock are converts too.

I don't know about Abp. Gregory though.

I'm pretty sure Abp. Gregory was raised Antiochian and then joined ROCOR in the 1960s, and then joined different "True" and "Genuine" groups after that.  With regard your question about "most of the flock" of Abp Gregory, he really doesn't have enough of a flock to speak of "most".  Of the small flock that he has, I would suspect that most are converts, but I do not have any statistics on this.  

With the name "Robert George" and that little nose and ruddy complexion, I'm doubting he is Syrian by descent. But it is possible. Smiley

His last name is Abu-Asaly.  He was raised in the Church, as he tells us in his "Life Story" that he posted online.
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« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2014, 01:24:06 PM »

Thanks for the clarification.
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« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2014, 05:43:21 PM »


new doctrinal controversies, etc.    


Really, I thought development of doctrines was only found outside of Orthodox Christianity since Christ delivered the Holy Unchanging Faith to His Apostles for all people and all times.

No, it is not new doctrinal controversies, but the old pan-heresy of Ecumenism rearing its head once again, so this is what is causing the fractures.

Grace is needed to heal this mother of all division, but the definition of Grace is causing the division.

But, you may ask, isn't grace part of God's Divine Energies? That it is.

However, there is a difference between mysteriological and actual grace, and how many angels can sit on the head of a needle.   Roll Eyes

Well, new doctrinal controversies and new controversies which just reignite old controversies. For instance, the Awake Sleeper controversy in HOCNA, the Name Worshipping controversy in HOCNA and in some Russian "True" groups, the controversy over whether there is grace in "World Orthodoxy", the Uncreated Church controversy and Neo-Iconoclast controversy among the Matthewites, etc.  These major controversies constantly come up in these groups, resulting in new schisms, reallignments, etc.

I would add the matter of some of these groups baptizing people entering their fold, who had previously received a fully Orthodox baptism.
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« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2014, 01:42:56 PM »

From what group or groups were these men (Met. John and Abp. Gregory) converts? Are many of the flock converts too?

Met. John used to be a Roman Catholic. And if I were to guess, I'd say that most of the flock are converts too.

I don't know about Abp. Gregory though.

I'm pretty sure Abp. Gregory was raised Antiochian and then joined ROCOR in the 1960s, and then joined different "True" and "Genuine" groups after that.  With regard your question about "most of the flock" of Abp Gregory, he really doesn't have enough of a flock to speak of "most".  Of the small flock that he has, I would suspect that most are converts, but I do not have any statistics on this. 

Do you mean to say that converts are more likely to accept an irregular situation, while 'cradle Orthodox' are more likely to reject it? Do you think there is significance to this other than a demographic observation?
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« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2014, 02:57:54 PM »


new doctrinal controversies, etc.    


Really, I thought development of doctrines was only found outside of Orthodox Christianity since Christ delivered the Holy Unchanging Faith to His Apostles for all people and all times.

No, it is not new doctrinal controversies, but the old pan-heresy of Ecumenism rearing its head once again, so this is what is causing the fractures.

Grace is needed to heal this mother of all division, but the definition of Grace is causing the division.

But, you may ask, isn't grace part of God's Divine Energies? That it is.

However, there is a difference between mysteriological and actual grace, and how many angels can sit on the head of a needle.   Roll Eyes

Well, new doctrinal controversies and new controversies which just reignite old controversies. For instance, the Awake Sleeper controversy in HOCNA, the Name Worshipping controversy in HOCNA and in some Russian "True" groups, the controversy over whether there is grace in "World Orthodoxy", the Uncreated Church controversy and Neo-Iconoclast controversy among the Matthewites, etc.  These major controversies constantly come up in these groups, resulting in new schisms, reallignments, etc.

I would add the matter of some of these groups baptizing people entering their fold, who had previously received a fully Orthodox baptism.

Do you have examples? I did sponsor the baptism of one who had been in GOARCH, but he had been received into GOARCH by pouring rather than full immersion, which troubled his conscience, so he requested to be properly baptized by us. We did not insist on it; our normal practice is to chrismate those coming from GOARCH, though you might find examples of people being received by confession only, depending on the pastoral situation.
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« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2014, 03:58:34 PM »

From what group or groups were these men (Met. John and Abp. Gregory) converts? Are many of the flock converts too?

Met. John used to be a Roman Catholic. And if I were to guess, I'd say that most of the flock are converts too.

I don't know about Abp. Gregory though.

I'm pretty sure Abp. Gregory was raised Antiochian and then joined ROCOR in the 1960s, and then joined different "True" and "Genuine" groups after that.  With regard your question about "most of the flock" of Abp Gregory, he really doesn't have enough of a flock to speak of "most".  Of the small flock that he has, I would suspect that most are converts, but I do not have any statistics on this. 

Do you mean to say that converts are more likely to accept an irregular situation, while 'cradle Orthodox' are more likely to reject it? Do you think there is significance to this other than a demographic observation?

The USA is different from Greece. In the USA, there are many converts to be found in all the jurisdictions of Orthodox Christianity including those of the True Orthodox. In Greece one does not find many Protestants and Catholics. So, yes, it is a demographic observation.
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« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2014, 04:05:18 PM »


new doctrinal controversies, etc.    


Really, I thought development of doctrines was only found outside of Orthodox Christianity since Christ delivered the Holy Unchanging Faith to His Apostles for all people and all times.

No, it is not new doctrinal controversies, but the old pan-heresy of Ecumenism rearing its head once again, so this is what is causing the fractures.

Grace is needed to heal this mother of all division, but the definition of Grace is causing the division.

But, you may ask, isn't grace part of God's Divine Energies? That it is.

However, there is a difference between mysteriological and actual grace, and how many angels can sit on the head of a needle.   Roll Eyes

Well, new doctrinal controversies and new controversies which just reignite old controversies. For instance, the Awake Sleeper controversy in HOCNA, the Name Worshipping controversy in HOCNA and in some Russian "True" groups, the controversy over whether there is grace in "World Orthodoxy", the Uncreated Church controversy and Neo-Iconoclast controversy among the Matthewites, etc.  These major controversies constantly come up in these groups, resulting in new schisms, reallignments, etc.

I would add the matter of some of these groups baptizing people entering their fold, who had previously received a fully Orthodox baptism.

Do you have examples? I did sponsor the baptism of one who had been in GOARCH, but he had been received into GOARCH by pouring rather than full immersion, which troubled his conscience, so he requested to be properly baptized by us. We did not insist on it; our normal practice is to chrismate those coming from GOARCH, though you might find examples of people being received by confession only, depending on the pastoral situation.

Metropolitan Moses of Toronto (GOC-K) mentioned that he will baptize those from the OCA and GOARCH who have only had the "Kiddy Pool" baptisms (see My Big Fat Greek Wedding) where water is poured over them, so that these catechumens have not been entirely submerged three times. However, those in the Antiochian churches and in some newer GOARCH parishes usually have a larger baptismal font that accommodates older children and adults so that they can be completely immersed three times. In some OCA parishes, the parish will use a horse trough that will allow the catechumen to be immersed.

In fact, Met. Moses said that he prefers to baptize catechumens in a lake or river.
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« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2014, 04:09:13 PM »


new doctrinal controversies, etc.    


Really, I thought development of doctrines was only found outside of Orthodox Christianity since Christ delivered the Holy Unchanging Faith to His Apostles for all people and all times.

No, it is not new doctrinal controversies, but the old pan-heresy of Ecumenism rearing its head once again, so this is what is causing the fractures.

Grace is needed to heal this mother of all division, but the definition of Grace is causing the division.

But, you may ask, isn't grace part of God's Divine Energies? That it is.

However, there is a difference between mysteriological and actual grace, and how many angels can sit on the head of a needle.   Roll Eyes

Well, new doctrinal controversies and new controversies which just reignite old controversies. For instance, the Awake Sleeper controversy in HOCNA, the Name Worshipping controversy in HOCNA and in some Russian "True" groups, the controversy over whether there is grace in "World Orthodoxy", the Uncreated Church controversy and Neo-Iconoclast controversy among the Matthewites, etc.  These major controversies constantly come up in these groups, resulting in new schisms, reallignments, etc.

I would add the matter of some of these groups baptizing people entering their fold, who had previously received a fully Orthodox baptism.

Do you have examples? I did sponsor the baptism of one who had been in GOARCH, but he had been received into GOARCH by pouring rather than full immersion, which troubled his conscience, so he requested to be properly baptized by us. We did not insist on it; our normal practice is to chrismate those coming from GOARCH, though you might find examples of people being received by confession only, depending on the pastoral situation.

Metropolitan Moses mentioned that he will baptize those from the OCA and GOARCH who have only had the Kiddy Pool baptisms (see My Big Fat Greek Wedding) where water is poured over them, so these catechumens are not entirely submerged three times. However, those in the Antiochian churches and in some newer GOARCH parishes usually have a larger baptismal font that accommodates older children and adults so that they can be completely immersed three times.

In fact, he prefers to baptize catechumens in a lake or river.

That's what we did! We baptized Daniel in the pond behind the monastery in Bearsville as the sun was setting, followed by an All-Night Vigil after which he received his first Communion in our church. We were following the original rubrics and integrating the baptism and chrismation into the liturgy, rather than celebrating it as a separate service as is customary nowadays.
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« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2014, 04:11:26 PM »


new doctrinal controversies, etc.    


Really, I thought development of doctrines was only found outside of Orthodox Christianity since Christ delivered the Holy Unchanging Faith to His Apostles for all people and all times.

No, it is not new doctrinal controversies, but the old pan-heresy of Ecumenism rearing its head once again, so this is what is causing the fractures.

Grace is needed to heal this mother of all division, but the definition of Grace is causing the division.

But, you may ask, isn't grace part of God's Divine Energies? That it is.

However, there is a difference between mysteriological and actual grace, and how many angels can sit on the head of a needle.   Roll Eyes

Well, new doctrinal controversies and new controversies which just reignite old controversies. For instance, the Awake Sleeper controversy in HOCNA, the Name Worshipping controversy in HOCNA and in some Russian "True" groups, the controversy over whether there is grace in "World Orthodoxy", the Uncreated Church controversy and Neo-Iconoclast controversy among the Matthewites, etc.  These major controversies constantly come up in these groups, resulting in new schisms, reallignments, etc.

I would add the matter of some of these groups baptizing people entering their fold, who had previously received a fully Orthodox baptism.

Do you have examples? I did sponsor the baptism of one who had been in GOARCH, but he had been received into GOARCH by pouring rather than full immersion, which troubled his conscience, so he requested to be properly baptized by us. We did not insist on it; our normal practice is to chrismate those coming from GOARCH, though you might find examples of people being received by confession only, depending on the pastoral situation.

Metropolitan Moses mentioned that he will baptize those from the OCA and GOARCH who have only had the Kiddy Pool baptisms (see My Big Fat Greek Wedding) where water is poured over them, so these catechumens are not entirely submerged three times. However, those in the Antiochian churches and in some newer GOARCH parishes usually have a larger baptismal font that accommodates older children and adults so that they can be completely immersed three times.

In fact, he prefers to baptize catechumens in a lake or river.

That's what we did! We baptized Daniel in the pond behind the monastery in Bearsville as the sun was setting, followed by an All-Night Vigil after which he received his first Communion in our church. We were following the original rubrics and integrating the baptism and chrismation into the liturgy, rather than celebrating it as a separate service as is customary nowadays.

I hope they did not have to break the ice! brrrrr!
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