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Author Topic: peter the rock  (Read 1933 times) Average Rating: 1
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« on: February 21, 2014, 01:55:11 PM »

how do catholics come to the conclusion of papal infalibility from peter the rock passage.

if it doesn't nessesarly point to papal infalibility what else can it point to.
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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2014, 02:15:27 PM »

how do catholics come to the conclusion of papal infalibility from peter the rock passage.

if it doesn't nessesarly point to papal infalibility what else can it point to.

They just do.

Quote from: Matthew 16:18-19
You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

Read the Council of Vatican I if you want to see how they derive this teaching.
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« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2014, 05:51:30 PM »

^ thanks

i'm wondering tho, what are other interpretations of peter being the 'rock'

and if the second counsil (as  mentioned somewhere in the article posted above me-i lost it) approved this interpreation
why do orthodox reject it.
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« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2014, 05:59:45 PM »

^ thanks

i'm wondering tho, what are other interpretations of peter being the 'rock'

and if the second counsil (as  mentioned somewhere in the article posted above me-i lost it) approved this interpreation why do orthodox reject it.

There aren't any others. All of it comes from those verses.

The Orthodox don't accept a Roman Catholic council.
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« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2014, 06:02:31 PM »

^ thanks

i'm wondering tho, what are other interpretations of peter being the 'rock'

and if the second counsil (as  mentioned somewhere in the article posted above me-i lost it) approved this interpreation why do orthodox reject it.

There aren't any others. All of it comes from those verses.

The Orthodox don't accept a Roman Catholic council.

once again thanks
i don't mean what other verses i mean  what other interpreations
like one is  that the rock means the rock of faith that peter had
are there any other interpretations

sorry...
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« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2014, 06:56:48 PM »

^ thanks

i'm wondering tho, what are other interpretations of peter being the 'rock'

and if the second counsil (as  mentioned somewhere in the article posted above me-i lost it) approved this interpreation why do orthodox reject it.

There aren't any others. All of it comes from those verses.

The Orthodox don't accept a Roman Catholic council.

The ROCK is Peter's faith and that all that counts....We Orthodox know the truth, don't doubt us...
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« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2014, 07:18:21 PM »

Just on this page alone, there are about five recent threads related to this topic.  Keep clicking on the page numbers at the bottom of the page, and you'll find more.  I promise.  Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2014, 07:47:37 PM »

^ thanks

i'm wondering tho, what are other interpretations of peter being the 'rock'

and if the second counsil (as  mentioned somewhere in the article posted above me-i lost it) approved this interpreation why do orthodox reject it.

There aren't any others. All of it comes from those verses.

The Orthodox don't accept a Roman Catholic council.

The ROCK is Peter's faith and that all that counts....We Orthodox know the truth, don't doubt us...

help me strenghten my faith....

what about the scrpture when he's questioning peters love and tells him to watch over his  sheep
what about the scripture where he says he has prayed for peter and tells him to strenghten the other disiples.

how does the orthodox church interprete those verses?
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« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2014, 07:49:30 PM »

^ thanks

i'm wondering tho, what are other interpretations of peter being the 'rock'

and if the second counsil (as  mentioned somewhere in the article posted above me-i lost it) approved this interpreation why do orthodox reject it.

There aren't any others. All of it comes from those verses.

The Orthodox don't accept a Roman Catholic council.

The ROCK is Peter's faith and that all that counts....We Orthodox know the truth, don't doubt us...

help me strenghten my faith....

what about the scrpture when he's questioning peters love and tells him to watch over his  sheep
what about the scripture where he says he has prayed for peter and tells him to strenghten the other disiples.

how does the orthodox church interprete those verses?

The Holy Spirit was given to all the disciples, not just Peter. Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just Peter.
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« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2014, 08:31:27 PM »

^ thanks

i'm wondering tho, what are other interpretations of peter being the 'rock'

and if the second counsil (as  mentioned somewhere in the article posted above me-i lost it) approved this interpreation why do orthodox reject it.

There aren't any others. All of it comes from those verses.

The Orthodox don't accept a Roman Catholic council.

The ROCK is Peter's faith and that all that counts....We Orthodox know the truth, don't doubt us...

help me strenghten my faith....

what about the scrpture when he's questioning peters love and tells him to watch over his  sheep
what about the scripture where he says he has prayed for peter and tells him to strenghten the other disiples.

how does the orthodox church interprete those verses?

Those verses reinstated Peter's apostolic authority after he denied Christ. St. Peter is the leader of the Apostles.
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« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2014, 08:41:06 PM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just Peter.



That is not what the Bible says.
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« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2014, 08:41:36 PM »

St. Peter is the leader of the Apostles.

Not quite. The Orthodox Church liturgically and iconographically commemorates both Apostles Peter and Paul as Princes of the Apostles.
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« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2014, 08:43:16 PM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just Peter.



That is not what the Bible says.

Hmm... Yes it is.

Quote from: Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
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« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2014, 08:45:44 PM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just Peter.



That is not what the Bible says.

Hmm... Yes it is.

Quote from: Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Hmm... No it is not. He is talking to PETER.
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« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2014, 08:47:44 PM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just Peter.



That is not what the Bible says.

Hmm... Yes it is.

Quote from: Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Hmm... No it is not. He is talking to PETER.

Unless there are multiple Peters, Mt 18.18 is addressed to the Twelve because the Greek uses the plural. 

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« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2014, 08:48:20 PM »


Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just Peter.

That is not what the Bible says.

From Matthew 18 (it is clear Christ is not talking to Peter alone):

1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

......

18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”


From Matthew 28, where Christ is speaking to the eleven disciples, not just Peter:

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
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« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2014, 08:48:51 PM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just Peter.



That is not what the Bible says.

Hmm... Yes it is.

Quote from: Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Hmm... No it is not. He is talking to PETER.

Sola Scriptura.
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« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2014, 08:50:32 PM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just Peter.



That is not what the Bible says.

Hmm... Yes it is.

Quote from: Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Hmm... No it is not. He is talking to PETER.

Sola Scriptura.

Sola Petri?  Wink
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« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2014, 08:57:52 PM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just Peter.



That is not what the Bible says.

Hmm... Yes it is.

Quote from: Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Hmm... No it is not. He is talking to PETER.

Sola Scriptura.

Sola Petri?  Wink

And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."…

He is talking to Peter alone.
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« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2014, 09:06:41 PM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just Peter.



That is not what the Bible says.

Hmm... Yes it is.

Quote from: Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Hmm... No it is not. He is talking to PETER.

Sola Scriptura.

Sola Petri?  Wink

And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."…

He is talking to Peter alone.

In that passage, yes. In the other passages posted above, no. You should take the Gospel in its fullness, not cherry-pick the bits that suit you like protestants do.
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« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2014, 09:13:50 PM »

Can we stop this now?  We will be exhausting ourselves beating this dead horse!   You aren't going to convince anyone of anything that pulls stuff out of context to support their point of view.  Ughhhhhhh !

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« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2014, 09:14:24 PM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just Peter.



That is not what the Bible says.

Hmm... Yes it is.

Quote from: Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Hmm... No it is not. He is talking to PETER.

Sola Scriptura.

Sola Petri?  Wink

And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."…

He is talking to Peter alone.

In that passage, yes. In the other passages posted above, no. You should take the Gospel in its fullness, not cherry-pick the bits that suit you like protestants do.

I am not cherry picking anything. That is what it says. The keys. The authority to bind and loose was given to PETER alone.
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« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2014, 09:28:39 PM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just Peter.



That is not what the Bible says.

Hmm... Yes it is.

Quote from: Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Hmm... No it is not. He is talking to PETER.

Sola Scriptura.

Sola Petri?  Wink

And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."…

He is talking to Peter alone.

In that passage, yes. In the other passages posted above, no. You should take the Gospel in its fullness, not cherry-pick the bits that suit you like protestants do.

I am not cherry picking anything. That is what it says. The keys. The authority to bind and loose was given to PETER alone.

Matthew 18 proves you wrong. All of the disciples were given the authority to bind and loose. Or are you suggesting Matthew 18 is false?
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« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2014, 09:36:22 PM »

Can we stop this now?  We will be exhausting ourselves beating this dead horse!   You aren't going to convince anyone of anything that pulls stuff out of context to support their point of view.  Ughhhhhhh !

Viking

Shhhh. That would require Christian patience and forgiveness, and we don't do those here on OC.net.
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« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2014, 09:53:21 PM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just Peter.



That is not what the Bible says.

Hmm... Yes it is.

Quote from: Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Hmm... No it is not. He is talking to PETER.

Sola Scriptura.

Sola Petri?  Wink

And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."…

He is talking to Peter alone.

In that passage, yes. In the other passages posted above, no. You should take the Gospel in its fullness, not cherry-pick the bits that suit you like protestants do.

I am not cherry picking anything. That is what it says. The keys. The authority to bind and loose was given to PETER alone.

Matthew 18 proves you wrong. All of the disciples were given the authority to bind and loose. Or are you suggesting Matthew 18 is false?

Yes you are right. Only the Keys were given to Peter alone.
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« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2014, 10:26:33 PM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just Peter.



That is not what the Bible says.

Hmm... Yes it is.

Quote from: Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Hmm... No it is not. He is talking to PETER.

Sola Scriptura.

Sola Petri?  Wink

And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."…

He is talking to Peter alone.

In that passage, yes. In the other passages posted above, no. You should take the Gospel in its fullness, not cherry-pick the bits that suit you like protestants do.

I am not cherry picking anything. That is what it says. The keys. The authority to bind and loose was given to PETER alone.

Matthew 18 proves you wrong. All of the disciples were given the authority to bind and loose. Or are you suggesting Matthew 18 is false?

Yes you are right. Only the Keys were given to Peter alone.

The keys are the power to bind and loose.
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« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2014, 10:40:53 PM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just Peter.



That is not what the Bible says.

Hmm... Yes it is.

Quote from: Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Hmm... No it is not. He is talking to PETER.

Sola Scriptura.

Sola Petri?  Wink

And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."…

He is talking to Peter alone.

In that passage, yes. In the other passages posted above, no. You should take the Gospel in its fullness, not cherry-pick the bits that suit you like protestants do.

I am not cherry picking anything. That is what it says. The keys. The authority to bind and loose was given to PETER alone.

Matthew 18 proves you wrong. All of the disciples were given the authority to bind and loose. Or are you suggesting Matthew 18 is false?

Yes you are right. Only the Keys were given to Peter alone.

The keys are the power to bind and loose.

I await your answer on Matthew 18.  police
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« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2014, 12:04:31 AM »


And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."…

He is talking to Peter alone.
That is great! Now go from "Peter is the Prince of the Apostles" to "the Bishop of Rome is the Supreme Pontiff and unique successor of St. Peter who can speak on behalf of the church as a whole and make Ex Cathedra statements"
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« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2014, 12:08:17 AM »


And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."…

He is talking to Peter alone.
That is great! Now go from "Peter is the Prince of the Apostles" to "the Bishop of Rome is the Supreme Pontiff and unique successor of St. Peter who can speak on behalf of the church as a whole and make Ex Cathedra statements"

Don't forget, those statements are infallible, and anathema is on those who don't adhere to them.
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« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2014, 01:57:06 AM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just Peter.



That is not what the Bible says.

Hmm... Yes it is.

Quote from: Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Hmm... No it is not. He is talking to PETER.

Sola Scriptura.

Sola Petri?  Wink

And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."…

He is talking to Peter alone.

In that passage, yes. In the other passages posted above, no. You should take the Gospel in its fullness, not cherry-pick the bits that suit you like protestants do.

I am not cherry picking anything. That is what it says. The keys. The authority to bind and loose was given to PETER alone.

Matthew 18 proves you wrong. All of the disciples were given the authority to bind and loose. Or are you suggesting Matthew 18 is false?

Yes you are right. Only the Keys were given to Peter alone.

The keys are the power to bind and loose.

The keys represent Peter and his authority.
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« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2014, 01:57:26 AM »

^ thanks

i'm wondering tho, what are other interpretations of peter being the 'rock'

and if the second counsil (as  mentioned somewhere in the article posted above me-i lost it) approved this interpreation why do orthodox reject it.

There aren't any others. All of it comes from those verses.

The Orthodox don't accept a Roman Catholic council.

The ROCK is Peter's faith and that all that counts....We Orthodox know the truth, don't doubt us...

You cannot separate his faith from his person. Its is Peter who is the Rock because of his faith.

The proper translation passage indicates this as it should say :

"YOU are ROCK(Kepha) and on THIS ROCK(Kepha) I will build my church..."
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« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2014, 02:05:18 AM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just Peter.



That is not what the Bible says.

Hmm... Yes it is.

Quote from: Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Hmm... No it is not. He is talking to PETER.

Sola Scriptura.

Sola Petri?  Wink

And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."…

He is talking to Peter alone.

In that passage, yes. In the other passages posted above, no. You should take the Gospel in its fullness, not cherry-pick the bits that suit you like protestants do.

I am not cherry picking anything. That is what it says. The keys. The authority to bind and loose was given to PETER alone.

Matthew 18 proves you wrong. All of the disciples were given the authority to bind and loose. Or are you suggesting Matthew 18 is false?

Yes you are right. Only the Keys were given to Peter alone.

The keys are the power to bind and loose.

The keys of heaven or keys of Saint Peter are seen as a symbol of papal authority: "Behold he [Peter] received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, the power of binding and loosing is committed to him, the care of the whole Church and its government is given to him [cura ei totius Ecclesiae et principatus committitur (Epist., lib. V, ep. xx, in P.L., LXXVII, 745)]".[3]
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« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2014, 02:06:33 AM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just Peter.



That is not what the Bible says.

Hmm... Yes it is.

Quote from: Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Hmm... No it is not. He is talking to PETER.

Sola Scriptura.

Sola Petri?  Wink

And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."…

He is talking to Peter alone.

In that passage, yes. In the other passages posted above, no. You should take the Gospel in its fullness, not cherry-pick the bits that suit you like protestants do.

I am not cherry picking anything. That is what it says. The keys. The authority to bind and loose was given to PETER alone.

Matthew 18 proves you wrong. All of the disciples were given the authority to bind and loose. Or are you suggesting Matthew 18 is false?

Yes you are right. Only the Keys were given to Peter alone.

The keys are the power to bind and loose.

Besides the keys meaning the ability to administer the sacraments Jesus was quoting concepts and text from the OT Isaiah 22 which discusses the keys, the office and the authority that comes with them. Isaiah 22:22 specifically mirrors binding and loosing.

Isaiah 22:22 - I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.

First century Jews would recognize the “keys” as something that is continual and passed down giving the bearer authority.

Quote
. The steward in a royal household appears throughout the Old Testament record. The patriarch Joseph works with a steward in the palace in Egypt. King Saul has a steward, as does the prince Mephibosheth, but the most important image of steward in the Old Testament for understanding Matthew 16 is in Isaiah 22.

There the prophet foretells the fall of one royal steward and the succession of another. Shebna is being replaced by Eliakim, and the prophet says to the rejected Shebna, "I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open" (Is 22:21-22).

The true holder of the keys to the kingdom is the king himself, and in the Book of Revelation we see that the risen and glorified Christ holds the power of the keys—the power to bind and loose. John has a vision of Christ who says, "I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades" (Rv 1:18).

So the king holds the keys of the kingdom, but he delegates his power to the steward, and the keys of the kingdom are the symbol of this delegated authority. The keys not only opened all the doors, but they provided access to the store houses and financial resources of the king. In addition, the keys of the kingdom were worn on a sash that was a ceremonial badge of office. The passage from Isaiah and the customs all reveal that the role of the royal steward was an office given by the king, and that it was a successive office—the keys being handed to the next steward as a sign of the continuing delegated authority of the king himself (See "A Successive Ministry," above).

Isaiah 22 provides the Old Testament context that Jesus’ disciples would have understood completely as he quoted this particular passage in Matthew 16. When Jesus said to Peter, "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven," his disciples would recognize the passage from Isaiah. They would understand that not only was Jesus calling himself the King of his kingdom, but that he was appointing Peter as his royal steward. That John in Revelation sees the ascended and glorified Christ holding the eternal keys only confirms the intention of Jesus to delegate that power to Peter—the foundation stone of his Church.
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/peter%E2%80%99s-authority

This is solid biblical exegesis that has basis for its interpretation.
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« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2014, 04:20:39 AM »

Quote
Besides the keys meaning the ability to administer the sacraments Jesus was quoting concepts and text from the OT Isaiah 22 which discusses the keys, the office and the authority that comes with them. Isaiah 22:22 specifically mirrors binding and loosing.

This still doesn't explain away what Christ said in Matthew 18, where he clearly spoke to all the disciples, not to Peter alone.
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« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2014, 04:29:38 AM »

Quote
Besides the keys meaning the ability to administer the sacraments Jesus was quoting concepts and text from the OT Isaiah 22 which discusses the keys, the office and the authority that comes with them. Isaiah 22:22 specifically mirrors binding and loosing.

This still doesn't explain away what Christ said in Matthew 18, where he clearly spoke to all the disciples, not to Peter alone.

First century Jews would recognize the “keys” as something that is continual and passed down giving the bearer authority.

This is now Pope Francis.
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« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2014, 04:36:55 AM »

Quote
Besides the keys meaning the ability to administer the sacraments Jesus was quoting concepts and text from the OT Isaiah 22 which discusses the keys, the office and the authority that comes with them. Isaiah 22:22 specifically mirrors binding and loosing.

This still doesn't explain away what Christ said in Matthew 18, where he clearly spoke to all the disciples, not to Peter alone.

First century Jews would recognize the “keys” as something that is continual and passed down giving the bearer authority.

This is now Pope Francis.

So how does this continual and passed down giving the bearer authority stand up to Paul's successful repudiation of Peter's stance on Judaism? How does this continual and passed down giving the bearer authority stand up to the fact that the chairman of the first Apostolic council was James, the Brother of the Lord, not Peter?
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« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2014, 04:37:47 AM »

Quote
Besides the keys meaning the ability to administer the sacraments Jesus was quoting concepts and text from the OT Isaiah 22 which discusses the keys, the office and the authority that comes with them. Isaiah 22:22 specifically mirrors binding and loosing.

This still doesn't explain away what Christ said in Matthew 18, where he clearly spoke to all the disciples, not to Peter alone.


Still waiting for a response to this.
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« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2014, 07:06:03 AM »

Quote
Besides the keys meaning the ability to administer the sacraments Jesus was quoting concepts and text from the OT Isaiah 22 which discusses the keys, the office and the authority that comes with them. Isaiah 22:22 specifically mirrors binding and loosing.

This still doesn't explain away what Christ said in Matthew 18, where he clearly spoke to all the disciples, not to Peter alone.

First century Jews would recognize the “keys” as something that is continual and passed down giving the bearer authority.

This is now Pope Francis.

So how does this continual and passed down giving the bearer authority stand up to Paul's successful repudiation of Peter's stance on Judaism? How does this continual and passed down giving the bearer authority stand up to the fact that the chairman of the first Apostolic council was James, the Brother of the Lord, not Peter?

Btw nobody knows with concrete evidence who presided over the first council in the new testament (although I believe James did).

Secondly, Peter was a man, a sinner, at the end of day and his stance was sinful. He had to be corrected as his beliefs were racist, triumphalist and discriminatory. Paul rightly called him out on this. But NEVER was he in the wrong doctrinally. Even today the pope can be corrected by his brother bishops if he has an incorrect view on certain issues.
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« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2014, 07:13:39 AM »

Quote
Besides the keys meaning the ability to administer the sacraments Jesus was quoting concepts and text from the OT Isaiah 22 which discusses the keys, the office and the authority that comes with them. Isaiah 22:22 specifically mirrors binding and loosing.

This still doesn't explain away what Christ said in Matthew 18, where he clearly spoke to all the disciples, not to Peter alone.


Still waiting for a response to this.

The keys confer more than binding and loosing, but a pre-eminence and authority as the OT reference shows. The keys were given to Peter alone. The power to bind and loose was given to all.

Quote
Bishop St. Optatus of Milevis (June 4) says in 367 [On the Schism of the Donatists 2:2 in PL 11:946A-947A]:

    You cannot then deny that you do know that upon Peter first in the City of Rome was bestowed the Episcopal Chair [Cathedra], on which sat Peter, the Head of all the Apostles (for which reason he was called Cephas), that, in this one Chair, unity should be preserved by all, lest the other Apostles might claim--each for himself--separate Chairs, so that he who should set up a second Chair against the unique Chair would already be a schismatic and a sinner. Well then, on the one Chair, which is the first of the Endowments, Peter was the first to sit.

Abbot St. Theodore of Studion says in Letter II:63 to Naucratius [PG 99:1281AB]:

Quote

I witness now before God and men, they [the Iconcoclasts] have torn themselves away from the Body of Christ, from the Supreme See [Rome], in which Christ placed the keys of the Faith, against which the gates of Hell (I mean the mouth of heretics) have not prevailed, and never will until the Consummation, according to the promise of Him Who cannot lie [Mt 16:18]. Let the blessed and Apostolic Paschal [Pope St. Paschal I] rejoice therefore, for he has fulfilled the work of Peter
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« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2014, 09:30:15 AM »

Depending on the Divine and God-Like Father, some identify Peter as the rock and others understand his confession as the rock.  There is no consensus in Orthodoxy on this matter. 
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« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2014, 09:39:20 AM »

Depending on the Divine and God-Like Father, some identify Peter as the rock and others understand his confession as the rock.  There is no consensus in Orthodoxy on this matter. 

Bottom Line: The RCC and the OC will continue to disagree on this........period.
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« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2014, 03:48:35 PM »

but it's not just the rock that points to peter's authority

how do orthdox   explain the take care of my sheep passage
or when he says satan wanted him but jesus prayed for him and when her turns back to strenghten his brothers
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« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2014, 04:13:47 PM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just Peter.



That is not what the Bible says.

Hmm... Yes it is.

Quote from: Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Hmm... No it is not. He is talking to PETER.

Sola Scriptura.

Sola Petri?  Wink

And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."…

He is talking to Peter alone.

In that passage, yes. In the other passages posted above, no. You should take the Gospel in its fullness, not cherry-pick the bits that suit you like protestants do.

I am not cherry picking anything. That is what it says. The keys. The authority to bind and loose was given to PETER alone.

Matthew 18 proves you wrong. All of the disciples were given the authority to bind and loose. Or are you suggesting Matthew 18 is false?

Yes you are right. Only the Keys were given to Peter alone.

The keys are the power to bind and loose.

Besides the keys meaning the ability to administer the sacraments Jesus was quoting concepts and text from the OT Isaiah 22 which discusses the keys, the office and the authority that comes with them. Isaiah 22:22 specifically mirrors binding and loosing.

Isaiah 22:22 - I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.

First century Jews would recognize the “keys” as something that is continual and passed down giving the bearer authority.

Quote
. The steward in a royal household appears throughout the Old Testament record. The patriarch Joseph works with a steward in the palace in Egypt. King Saul has a steward, as does the prince Mephibosheth, but the most important image of steward in the Old Testament for understanding Matthew 16 is in Isaiah 22.

There the prophet foretells the fall of one royal steward and the succession of another. Shebna is being replaced by Eliakim, and the prophet says to the rejected Shebna, "I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open" (Is 22:21-22).

The true holder of the keys to the kingdom is the king himself, and in the Book of Revelation we see that the risen and glorified Christ holds the power of the keys—the power to bind and loose. John has a vision of Christ who says, "I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades" (Rv 1:18).

So the king holds the keys of the kingdom, but he delegates his power to the steward, and the keys of the kingdom are the symbol of this delegated authority. The keys not only opened all the doors, but they provided access to the store houses and financial resources of the king. In addition, the keys of the kingdom were worn on a sash that was a ceremonial badge of office. The passage from Isaiah and the customs all reveal that the role of the royal steward was an office given by the king, and that it was a successive office—the keys being handed to the next steward as a sign of the continuing delegated authority of the king himself (See "A Successive Ministry," above).

Isaiah 22 provides the Old Testament context that Jesus’ disciples would have understood completely as he quoted this particular passage in Matthew 16. When Jesus said to Peter, "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven," his disciples would recognize the passage from Isaiah. They would understand that not only was Jesus calling himself the King of his kingdom, but that he was appointing Peter as his royal steward. That John in Revelation sees the ascended and glorified Christ holding the eternal keys only confirms the intention of Jesus to delegate that power to Peter—the foundation stone of his Church.
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/peter%E2%80%99s-authority

This is solid biblical exegesis that has basis for its interpretation.

Sure, and the house of David is embodied in the person of Christ, who gave the keys to all of the Apostles.
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« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2014, 04:14:46 PM »

Quote
Besides the keys meaning the ability to administer the sacraments Jesus was quoting concepts and text from the OT Isaiah 22 which discusses the keys, the office and the authority that comes with them. Isaiah 22:22 specifically mirrors binding and loosing.

This still doesn't explain away what Christ said in Matthew 18, where he clearly spoke to all the disciples, not to Peter alone.

First century Jews would recognize the “keys” as something that is continual and passed down giving the bearer authority.

This is now Pope Francis.

So how does this continual and passed down giving the bearer authority stand up to Paul's successful repudiation of Peter's stance on Judaism? How does this continual and passed down giving the bearer authority stand up to the fact that the chairman of the first Apostolic council was James, the Brother of the Lord, not Peter?

Btw nobody knows with concrete evidence who presided over the first council in the new testament (although I believe James did).

Secondly, Peter was a man, a sinner, at the end of day and his stance was sinful. He had to be corrected as his beliefs were racist, triumphalist and discriminatory. Paul rightly called him out on this. But NEVER was he in the wrong doctrinally. Even today the pope can be corrected by his brother bishops if he has an incorrect view on certain issues.

So, the Pope wasn't infallible on doctrine, practice and morals then? Wouldn't believing that the Jewish law saves us be an incorrect view on doctrine?

Quote from: Galatians 2
But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

St. Paul considered this as a corruption of the truth of the gospel by St. Peter.
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« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2014, 04:16:17 PM »

but it's not just the rock that points to peter's authority

how do orthdox   explain the take care of my sheep passage
or when he says satan wanted him but jesus prayed for him and when her turns back to strenghten his brothers

I thought I already explained this. John 21 (sic?) is about re-instituting St. Peter's Apostolic ministry, because he was 'deposed' from it after he rejected Christ three times previously.
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"Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth.... While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." (Eugene Debs)
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