OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 22, 2014, 05:58:11 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Christianity, Government and Martyrdom  (Read 1079 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,464


« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2014, 06:19:50 PM »

There was one quote, which unfortunately I cannot place, by a late Byzantine saint who explained the Orthodox view of just violence to a Muslim. In a  nutshell, Christians shouldn't use violence to defend themselves, but they should to defend each other. That might help resolve some of the paradoxes.

And for the most part, the Church has condemned violent overthrow of government, even non-Christian government. Sometimes, however, when the government has appeared to be completely anti-Christian in nature, saints have taught their followers not to obey the civil authorities at all (since any obedience could count as indirectly participating in the persecution). One example, I believe, involved St Basil praying that Emperor Julian the Apostate be defeated by the Persians in battle.

Thanks for this explanation, Jonathan!

I think I see what orthonorm is getting at: the act of killing itself is not sanctified. I think I probably agree with that: whenever warrior saints turn up in hagiographies, I get the impression we're supposed to be impressed by their bravery rather than the bloodshed. I don't remember any case where an act of killing was glorified (though I can think of many cases where someone's violent death is held up as instructive in some sense, e.g. an unrepentant sinner receiving justice). I think what we have to be careful of is drawing radically pacifist conclusions from the inherent sinfulness of killing.
Logged
Aedificare
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox Churches in Western Europe
Posts: 120



« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2014, 06:21:28 PM »

There was one quote, which unfortunately I cannot place, by a late Byzantine saint who explained the Orthodox view of just violence to a Muslim. In a  nutshell, Christians shouldn't use violence to defend themselves, but they should to defend each other. That might help resolve some of the paradoxes.

And for the most part, the Church has condemned violent overthrow of government, even non-Christian government. Sometimes, however, when the government has appeared to be completely anti-Christian in nature, saints have taught their followers not to obey the civil authorities at all (since any obedience could count as indirectly participating in the persecution). One example, I believe, involved St Basil praying that Emperor Julian the Apostate be defeated by the Persians in battle.

Thanks for this explanation, Jonathan!

"Christians shouldn't use violence to defend themselves, but they should to defend each other."

Well, the question I have with this reasoning is that, wouldn't it make a whole lot more sense if you shouldn't defend yourself, but defend everyone else?
Even if a Muslim is being attacked by a Christian, you should help the Muslim and defend him.

I don't know... I think defensive actions, no matter on who is what is the best.
Well, the question is what one would do if the Byzantines advanced into new territory and didn't only defend their own cities....  Huh
Logged
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,464


« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2014, 06:29:14 PM »

There was one quote, which unfortunately I cannot place, by a late Byzantine saint who explained the Orthodox view of just violence to a Muslim. In a  nutshell, Christians shouldn't use violence to defend themselves, but they should to defend each other. That might help resolve some of the paradoxes.

And for the most part, the Church has condemned violent overthrow of government, even non-Christian government. Sometimes, however, when the government has appeared to be completely anti-Christian in nature, saints have taught their followers not to obey the civil authorities at all (since any obedience could count as indirectly participating in the persecution). One example, I believe, involved St Basil praying that Emperor Julian the Apostate be defeated by the Persians in battle.

Thanks for this explanation, Jonathan!

"Christians shouldn't use violence to defend themselves, but they should to defend each other."

Well, the question I have with this reasoning is that, wouldn't it make a whole lot more sense if you shouldn't defend yourself, but defend everyone else?
Even if a Muslim is being attacked by a Christian, you should help the Muslim and defend him.

I don't know... I think defensive actions, no matter on who is what is the best.
Well, the question is what one would do if the Byzantines advanced into new territory and didn't only defend their own cities....  Huh

On the one hand Christians are supposed to turn the other cheek. On the other hand, I'm not sure I've heard that self-defense of any kind is absolutely forbidden. I actually remember seeing cases of it in the lives of the saints. I suppose this means we do have the right to defend ourselves, but not to harbor thoughts or feelings of vengeance against those who attack us. Obviously easier said than done, but that's what I'm taking from this.
Logged
Skydive
Moderated
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 499



« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2014, 04:30:39 AM »

Do you think this mentality is normal - sane? To let yourself killed? What is that supposed to achieve?

Ask Christ.

I am asking you. You seem to perpetuate this idea.

As does the entire Christian tradition.

According to whom?
Logged

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,019


"My god is greater."


« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2014, 11:40:43 AM »

Do you think this mentality is normal - sane? To let yourself killed? What is that supposed to achieve?

Ask Christ.

I am asking you. You seem to perpetuate this idea.

As does the entire Christian tradition.

According to whom?

According to Christ and basically all the martyrs.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
Skydive
Moderated
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 499



« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2014, 03:55:56 PM »

Do you think this mentality is normal - sane? To let yourself killed? What is that supposed to achieve?

Ask Christ.

I am asking you. You seem to perpetuate this idea.

As does the entire Christian tradition.

According to whom?

According to Christ and basically all the martyrs.

1.To whose interpretation of Christ?

2.Weren't 9/11 terrorists martyrs also?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 03:56:21 PM by Skydive » Logged

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.059 seconds with 33 queries.