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Author Topic: Was Mohamed insane...?  (Read 2849 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2014, 11:54:59 AM »

There is no prophesy of prophet Muhammad or of a new Arabian religion of Islam.There maybe a prophesy of the Arab people but not of Islam or prophet Muhammad apart from Jesus warning us of arrivals of false prophets 

Yes, a False Prophet Indeed.....!

I dont think Jesus was warning 'us' per say, I think his context was most always as the Jewish Messiah for the Jewish people during his time.

Its not unthinkable that Gods hand played a role in Islam starting for the sons of Ishmael (that he blessed).

Ishmael means 'God had heard'.

Israel means 'Struggle with God'

Isaac means 'To Laugh (mockingly)'.

Isaac is Ishmaels half brother. Here's what happened:

Quote
Sarah: 6 God has graced me with the gift of laughter! To be sure, everyone who hears my story will laugh with me.

7 Who would ever have said to Abraham that Sarah would one day nurse children? Yet I have given birth to his son at this late stage in his life!

8 Time went on, and Isaac grew and was weaned from his mother. Abraham prepared a special feast in Isaac’s honor, to celebrate the day he was weaned. 9 But a damper was put on the day when Sarah saw the son Hagar (the Egyptian girl) bore for Abraham laughing and teasing her son. 10 She became jealous and demanded of Abraham:

Sarah: Throw this slave woman and her son out right now! The son of this slave is not going to share the inheritance along with my son, Isaac, if I have anything to do with it![a]

11 Sarah’s demand was extremely distressing to Abraham, since Ishmael was also his son. 12 But God assured Abraham.

Eternal One: Don’t worry about the young man and your servant. Go along with whatever Sarah says, for through Isaac your covenant children will be named. 13 As for the son of the slave woman, I will take care of him. I will raise up a <great> nation through him as well because he is also your son.

14 So Abraham got up early in the morning, took bread and a container of water, and gave them to Hagar. He placed them on her shoulder, gave her the child—his firstborn—and sent her away.



She left and wandered in the wilderness near Beersheba. 15 When the water in the container was all gone, in desperation she left the child under the shade of one of the bushes. 16 Then she walked off and sat down opposite him, about a bowshot away.



Hagar: I can’t bear to watch my child die.

Though Ishmael is about 16 years old at this time, she still considers him her child.

As she sat there, she cried loudly. 17 God heard the voice of young Ishmael, and a messenger of God called out to Hagar from heaven.

Messenger: Why are you so upset, Hagar? Don’t be afraid. God has heard the voice of young Ishmael. 18 Come now, lift him up, and take him by the hand. I have plans to make a great nation from his descendants!

19 Then God opened Hagar’s eyes. She looked up from her grief and saw a well of water not far away. She went over to it, filled the container she carried with water, and gave the young man a drink.



20 God watched over him for the rest of his life. Ishmael grew up, lived in the wilderness, and became an expert archer. 21 So Ishmael went on to live out his life in the wilderness of Paran. When the time was right, his mother obtained a wife for him from her homeland Egypt.





"He (Ishmael) shall be a wild donkey of a man, his hand against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen.” (Genesis 16:12)

The Ishmaelites





And thats what happened..  To this very day you can go and walk on the same grounds that Hagar and Ishmael walked. These arent fables. It explains much of who we are today.

Cackles, did you provide those inline graphics? If so, well done! It looks like a "kid's Bible" or something. That is pretty brilliant.
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« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2014, 12:36:30 PM »



Here is a real icon of Mohamad (peace be upon him lol.. I love saying that):





But the best part of Islam that puts Judaism and Christianity to shame is their ultra rightious, pius women. These are all wives. Divorce and destroying lives of children and society just doesnt happen with these women.



Those icons/paintings are not of Muhammad but of Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib(Imam Ali)

And divorce is quite common in the Muslim world and pretty easy to do depending on the country and outlined in the Quran and Islamic Laws .



Would these Images be considered 'graven' by Muslim standards......
Well certainly not by Orthodox standards.........

You ignore my question.  Would these Images be considered 'graven' by Muslim standards?
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« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2014, 12:53:42 PM »

Their women are so pure and righteous. No divorce. No ruined lives. No broken homes and families. No worries of cheating. No mr mom while wife goes out to party and Dad stays at home looking after kids and the wife doesnt call and comes home extra late. Non of that. The head covering brings out the best of them as women. The hair is a natural veil. The woman being veiled is natural for her. Its something us men dont understand.

You sound like you've never been around Muslims.   

Lol that funny. My best friend growing up was a muslim. i've worked with many muslims. Dated one. Several are my friends. One was a bride maid at our wedding. Part of my circles have always been Muslims. I live Canada and we have tons of muslims, you cant avoid them even if hou wanted to. I dont think we should be intermixing with them and God does not want this.

But gee whiz in these times we have a lot to learn from them.

I'M BEGINNING TO THINK THEY STOLD OUR WOMEN SOMEHOW IN EARLIER TIMES. IT'S LIKE THE MUSLIMS STOLE OUR WOMEN. This requires further research. My hunch seriously tells me this.

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« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2014, 12:57:33 PM »

Their women are so pure and righteous. No divorce. No ruined lives. No broken homes and families. No worries of cheating. No mr mom while wife goes out to party and Dad stays at home looking after kids and the wife doesnt call and comes home extra late. Non of that. The head covering brings out the best of them as women. The hair is a natural veil. The woman being veiled is natural for her. Its something us men dont understand.

You sound like you've never been around Muslims.   

Lol that funny. My best friend growing up was a muslim. i've worked with many muslims. Dated one. Several are my friends. One was a bride maid at our wedding. Part of my circles have always been Muslims. I live Canada and we have tons of muslims, you cant avoid them even if hou wanted to. I dont think we should be intermixing with them and God does not want this.

But gee whiz in these times we have a lot to learn from them.

I'M BEGINNING TO THINK THEY STOLD OUR WOMEN SOMEHOW IN EARLIER TIMES. IT'S LIKE THE MUSLIMS STOLE OUR WOMEN. This requires further research. My hunch seriously tells me this.



I lived in Toronto for a while, and I can attest that there is a large Muslim community there.
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« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2014, 01:12:41 PM »

Their women are so pure and righteous. No divorce. No ruined lives. No broken homes and families. No worries of cheating. No mr mom while wife goes out to party and Dad stays at home looking after kids and the wife doesnt call and comes home extra late. Non of that. The head covering brings out the best of them as women. The hair is a natural veil. The woman being veiled is natural for her. Its something us men dont understand.

You sound like you've never been around Muslims.   
What part of Canada do you live in? Also,you said that God doesn't want intermixing , then why did He create them and us? I'm sure God wouldn't want His people segregated from each other or cause any multi religion conflicts

Lol that funny. My best friend growing up was a muslim. i've worked with many muslims. Dated one. Several are my friends. One was a bride maid at our wedding. Part of my circles have always been Muslims. I live Canada and we have tons of muslims, you cant avoid them even if hou wanted to. I dont think we should be intermixing with them and God does not want this.

But gee whiz in these times we have a lot to learn from them.

I'M BEGINNING TO THINK THEY STOLD OUR WOMEN SOMEHOW IN EARLIER TIMES. IT'S LIKE THE MUSLIMS STOLE OUR WOMEN. This requires further research. My hunch seriously tells me this.


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« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2014, 01:16:30 PM »



Here is a real icon of Mohamad (peace be upon him lol.. I love saying that):





But the best part of Islam that puts Judaism and Christianity to shame is their ultra rightious, pius women. These are all wives. Divorce and destroying lives of children and society just doesnt happen with these women.



Those icons/paintings are not of Muhammad but of Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib(Imam Ali)

And divorce is quite common in the Muslim world and pretty easy to do depending on the country and outlined in the Quran and Islamic Laws .



Would these Images be considered 'graven' by Muslim standards......
Well certainly not by Orthodox standards.........

You ignore my question.  Would these Images be considered 'graven' by Muslim standards?
I don't think they are allowed images of anyone, especially of prophet Muhammad.I think any films with prophet Muhammad are made in such a way that they don't show his face in films either.So those pictures maybe considered blasphemous
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« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2014, 01:18:28 PM »

Their women are so pure and righteous. No divorce. No ruined lives. No broken homes and families. No worries of cheating. No mr mom while wife goes out to party and Dad stays at home looking after kids and the wife doesnt call and comes home extra late. Non of that. The head covering brings out the best of them as women. The hair is a natural veil. The woman being veiled is natural for her. Its something us men dont understand.

You sound like you've never been around Muslims.   

Lol that funny. My best friend growing up was a muslim. i've worked with many muslims. Dated one. Several are my friends. One was a bride maid at our wedding. Part of my circles have always been Muslims. I live Canada and we have tons of muslims, you cant avoid them even if hou wanted to. I dont think we should be intermixing with them and God does not want this.

But gee whiz in these times we have a lot to learn from them.

I'M BEGINNING TO THINK THEY STOLD OUR WOMEN SOMEHOW IN EARLIER TIMES. IT'S LIKE THE MUSLIMS STOLE OUR WOMEN. This requires further research. My hunch seriously tells me this.


What part of Canada do you live in? Also,you said that God doesn't want intermixing , then why did He create them and us? I'm sure God wouldn't want His people segregated from each other or cause any multi religion conflicts
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« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2014, 01:52:54 PM »

You sound like you've never been around Muslims.   

Lol that funny. My best friend growing up was a muslim. i've worked with many muslims. Dated one. Several are my friends. One was a bride maid at our wedding. Part of my circles have always been Muslims. I live Canada and we have tons of muslims, you cant avoid them even if hou wanted to. I dont think we should be intermixing with them and God does not want this.

You can be around a group without really knowing anything about them.  For example, one can be Orthodox and attend an Orthodox church without knowing anything about Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2014, 02:05:19 PM »

You sound like you've never been around Muslims.   

Lol that funny. My best friend growing up was a muslim. i've worked with many muslims. Dated one. Several are my friends. One was a bride maid at our wedding. Part of my circles have always been Muslims. I live Canada and we have tons of muslims, you cant avoid them even if hou wanted to. I dont think we should be intermixing with them and God does not want this.

You can be around a group without really knowing anything about them.  For example, one can be Orthodox and attend an Orthodox church without knowing anything about Orthodoxy.

Really? I had the same line of friends, but I disagree that "Their women are so pure and righteous. No divorce. No ruined lives. No broken homes and families. No worries of cheating." is realistic a portrayal. Islam may teach those things, but Muslims don't practice them... not in my experience. In fact, I have seen veiled, practicing Muslims eating pork.
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« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2014, 02:06:30 PM »

You sound like you've never been around Muslims.   

Lol that funny. My best friend growing up was a muslim. i've worked with many muslims. Dated one. Several are my friends. One was a bride maid at our wedding. Part of my circles have always been Muslims. I live Canada and we have tons of muslims, you cant avoid them even if hou wanted to. I dont think we should be intermixing with them and God does not want this.

You can be around a group without really knowing anything about them.  For example, one can be Orthodox and attend an Orthodox church without knowing anything about Orthodoxy.

Really?

 Wink
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« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2014, 02:26:20 PM »

You sound like you've never been around Muslims.   

Lol that funny. My best friend growing up was a muslim. i've worked with many muslims. Dated one. Several are my friends. One was a bride maid at our wedding. Part of my circles have always been Muslims. I live Canada and we have tons of muslims, you cant avoid them even if hou wanted to. I dont think we should be intermixing with them and God does not want this.

You can be around a group without really knowing anything about them.  For example, one can be Orthodox and attend an Orthodox church without knowing anything about Orthodoxy.

Really?

 Wink
Oops, the 'really' comment was directed towards cackles. But lol
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« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2014, 02:31:15 PM »

You sound like you've never been around Muslims.   

Lol that funny. My best friend growing up was a muslim. i've worked with many muslims. Dated one. Several are my friends. One was a bride maid at our wedding. Part of my circles have always been Muslims. I live Canada and we have tons of muslims, you cant avoid them even if hou wanted to. I dont think we should be intermixing with them and God does not want this.

You can be around a group without really knowing anything about them.  For example, one can be Orthodox and attend an Orthodox church without knowing anything about Orthodoxy.
Exactly, I've Muslim friends and they don't know Quran they either don't read it or read it when they were younger in Arabic as required without understanding Arabic, hence little knowledge.Some of them even surprise how much I know about Quran and it's verses or Hadeeths because I've read in English
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« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2014, 02:34:36 PM »

You sound like you've never been around Muslims.   

Lol that funny. My best friend growing up was a muslim. i've worked with many muslims. Dated one. Several are my friends. One was a bride maid at our wedding. Part of my circles have always been Muslims. I live Canada and we have tons of muslims, you cant avoid them even if hou wanted to. I dont think we should be intermixing with them and God does not want this.

You can be around a group without really knowing anything about them.  For example, one can be Orthodox and attend an Orthodox church without knowing anything about Orthodoxy.

Really? I had the same line of friends, but I disagree that "Their women are so pure and righteous. No divorce. No ruined lives. No broken homes and families. No worries of cheating." is realistic a portrayal. Islam may teach those things, but Muslims don't practice them... not in my experience. In fact, I have seen veiled, practicing Muslims eating pork.
There is cheating and misery in their family lives I know that because I had been in a 3 year relationship with a Muslim lady, so I've learnt a lot and seen a lot.
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« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2014, 06:10:31 PM »


What part of Canada do you live in? Also,you said that God doesn't want intermixing , then why did He create them and us? I'm sure God wouldn't want His people segregated from each other or cause any multi religion conflicts
[/quote]


Genesis: 12:2-3  "...And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." We see His promise of on a global scope, His Love is Universal.
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« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2014, 04:24:11 AM »

Genesis: 12:2-3  "...And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." We see His promise of on a global scope, His Love is Universal.

Lol that's not how I interpret the story:

Quote
12 One day, the Eternal One called out to Abram.

Eternal One: Abram, get up and go! Leave your country. Leave your relatives and your father’s home, and travel to the land I will show you. Don’t worry—I will guide you there. 2 I have plans to make a great people from your descendants. And I am going to put a special blessing on you and cause your reputation to grow so that you will become a blessing and example to others. 3 I will also bless those who bless you and further you in your journey, and I’ll trip up those who try to trip you along the way. Through your descendants, all of the families of the earth will find their blessing in you. .
They will FIND it through him. This is required or there would be no free choice.

The bolded part above is clarified by Galatians 3:8

Quote
8 For it was foretold to us in the Scriptures that God would set the Gentile nations right by faith when He told Abraham, “I will bless all nations through you.”

So through the Jewish people we will find our blessing. We use Christ as our head for the Jewish people. It's where we 'find' our blessings.

God has a long history of creating peoples and telling them to seperate. The tower of Babel is amclear example of this. God considers having pagan foreigners in our lands a curse. A punishment if you will. This clearly demonstrated all throughout the Bible. Jesus mission was not anything outside of Isreal or to the other Nations. That wasnt his concern. It's after his death that his appostles set out. And back then what they considered foreign is like comparing someone from Toronto to New York. Wow so foreign.

Where i live we get people from the poorest corners of the earth, coming here more than any other county per capita. None of them are Christian. Cities have turmed to pagan cities where everyone is being forced to fit this govt promoted Humanist faith. Cities of Babel. This isnt healthy and not what God wants. Its destroying our Churches and religion while Islam is on the rise showing way below average divorce rate.

WHY? BECAUSE THEY TOOK OUR WOMEN. I'D BET IT'S TRUE:


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« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2014, 04:52:38 AM »


Really? I had the same line of friends, but I disagree that "Their women are so pure and righteous. No divorce. No ruined lives. No broken homes and families. No worries of cheating." is realistic a portrayal. Islam may teach those things, but Muslims don't practice them... not in my experience. In fact, I have seen veiled, practicing Muslims eating pork.

Those are exceptions with bad apples. Smiley

I feel like many of the men act like animals, but the women are often righteous. All the Muslims got married and none got divorced. I think there may be a legitimate possibility that they TOOK OUR WOMEN somehow. Think about it, the womans soul gets passed maternaly. The Jews have amongst the highest divorce rate.. The men seem one way, the women seem different.

MAYBE THEY TOOK OUR WOMEN SOMEHOW??

PURE AND HOLY - THEY KNEW IT AND STOLD THEM FROM US - IM BEING SERIOUS IS THIS FEASABLE??

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« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2014, 06:32:51 AM »


What part of Canada do you live in? Also,you said that God doesn't want intermixing , then why did He create them and us? I'm sure God wouldn't want His people segregated from each other or cause any multi religion conflicts


Genesis: 12:2-3  "...And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." We see His promise of on a global scope, His Love is Universal.
[/quote]wow, I love this verse of unity! Quran in Surah 5:51 does say not take Jews and Christians as your friends and that Islam over rides all previous religions basically saying we are all wrong and they are right, that's not unity , that's a division. I'm all for unity
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« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2014, 06:43:10 AM »


Really? I had the same line of friends, but I disagree that "Their women are so pure and righteous. No divorce. No ruined lives. No broken homes and families. No worries of cheating." is realistic a portrayal. Islam may teach those things, but Muslims don't practice them... not in my experience. In fact, I have seen veiled, practicing Muslims eating pork.

Those are exceptions with bad apples. Smiley

I feel like many of the men act like animals, but the women are often righteous. All the Muslims got married and none got divorced. I think there may be a legitimate possibility that they TOOK OUR WOMEN somehow. Think about it, the womans soul gets passed maternaly. The Jews have amongst the highest divorce rate.. The men seem one way, the women seem different.

MAYBE THEY TOOK OUR WOMEN SOMEHOW??

PURE AND HOLY - THEY KNEW IT AND STOLD THEM FROM US - IM BEING SERIOUS IS THIS FEASABLE??


Whete I live there are many more Muslims than where you live and I've many Muslim friends mainly guys but also been friends with Muslims women and been in a relationship with one of them.The girls do go out clubbing, wear heels and no head scarf, drink alcohol etc Not all but many do, and they lead similar life styles as we do, especially the ones that were born in the UK.My ex Muslim girl dressed western, no hair scarf and drank wine.So, you can't say All Muslims are perfect.Nobody is.
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« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2014, 06:51:35 AM »

Quote
It's a mistake to conflate "forced" and "arranged" marriages.
No kidding, I didn't do that.

Quote
In other words, pressure is exerted upon the couple to keep it together and find a way to live with it because "marriage is permanent",
They should. And of course Marriage is permnent, it's a Sacrament and a COVENANT.

You don't break Covenant.

Quote
I've seen families put pressure on their children, especially their daughters, to endure at the hands of their spouses verbal and emotional abuse, domestic violence, and even marital rape and other forms of sexual abuse because of the shame that will come from "public awareness" of the existence of problems,
Simple solution. If my daughters spouse is doing these things to her, then the family (the men) straighten this IDIOT out, problem solved. Problem is, if your family selected this guy to begin with, you're either not to bright or a very poor judge of character yourself and the women in your family are most unfortunate as a consequence. But any situation can be rectified through the proper course of action, you just have to be willing to do it.

Quote
The worst is when all these things are put to the person as God's will for them:
It is not God's "Will" for women to be abused......period. I don't care what any religious nutcase is peddeling out there. But the problem is, how one defines "abuse" these days. That term can apply to just about anything these days, matter of fact, the majority of marriages these days default because the women cry "abuse" when in fact the man never laid a finger on her. Many women just want things her way and when she doesn't get it, it's defined "abuse" and the courts and the state back them up. End of story.

Quote
"Western society doesn't share our values".
It doesn't. Somtimes this is good, sometimes not.

Quote
But don't hold up "forced" or "arranged" marriages as if they are better because they have a lower divorce rate in some statistical analysis.
I made the analogy how we have all this "freedom" and the divorce rate is astronomical and many people are still single, lonely and miserable......I never exactly said "forced" marriages are better. But I have no delusion that we in the "christian" West hold any kind of moral superiority to anyone in defining successful marital unions. If you want the truth we suck lately, christian or otherwise.

Quote
You have no idea what you're talking about.
I have been married and with the same woman for a very,very long time. I have a daughter and sons as well. I think I know a thing or two about marriage and family and WHAT WORKS.
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« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2014, 10:51:08 AM »



Lol that's not how I interpret the story:




Hmm, that's how our priest interprets it.....
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« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2014, 11:06:14 AM »

MAYBE THEY TOOK OUR WOMEN SOMEHOW??

PURE AND HOLY - THEY KNEW IT AND STOLD THEM FROM US - IM BEING SERIOUS IS THIS FEASABLE??

Honestly, almost nothing you post is feasible. 
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« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2014, 11:25:36 AM »

Quote
In other words, pressure is exerted upon the couple to keep it together and find a way to live with it because "marriage is permanent",
They should. And of course Marriage is permnent, it's a Sacrament and a COVENANT.

You don't break Covenant.

Neither do you enter into them without freedom without affecting their validity in some way.  Just ask your diocesan marriage tribunal.  

Quote
Quote
I've seen families put pressure on their children, especially their daughters, to endure at the hands of their spouses verbal and emotional abuse, domestic violence, and even marital rape and other forms of sexual abuse because of the shame that will come from "public awareness" of the existence of problems,
Simple solution. If my daughters spouse is doing these things to her, then the family (the men) straighten this IDIOT out, problem solved. Problem is, if your family selected this guy to begin with, you're either not to bright or a very poor judge of character yourself and the women in your family are most unfortunate as a consequence. But any situation can be rectified through the proper course of action, you just have to be willing to do it.

1.  You obviously are a Westerner looking in on something you have no clue about and fancying yourself an expert.

2.  It's not so simple as "(the men) straighten this IDIOT out" in a patriarchally structured society.  For instance, in my culture, when a woman is married off to a man, she's considered to have left her family and joined her husband's.  If the men in her husband's family are not willing to straighten the IDIOT out for their daughter-in-law/sister-in-law's sake, the men in the woman's family are likely to be extra hesitant to get involved in any way you think they should.  They are more likely to encourage their daughter/sister to "fix it", "obey your husband", "don't come crying to us", etc.  For them to intervene to fix their IDIOT-in-law would not go over well with anyone as a long term solution.  

3.  Re: the bold, yes, those are problems.  I'm glad you can see that "stuff happens" in "traditional" models of courtship and marriage, and it's not all perfect.  

Quote
But the problem is, how one defines "abuse" these days. That term can apply to just about anything these days, matter of fact, the majority of marriages these days default because the women cry "abuse" when in fact the man never laid a finger on her. Many women just want things her way and when she doesn't get it, it's defined "abuse" and the courts and the state back them up. End of story.

I recognise that some may "abuse" the concept of abuse, but that doesn't mean the genuine article doesn't exist.  I listed some examples of abuse in my last post.  If you want to debate whether or not those are abuse, I don't think it's worth continuing our discussion on this topic.    

Quote
Quote
You have no idea what you're talking about.
I have been married and with the same woman for a very,very long time. I have a daughter and sons as well. I think I know a thing or two about marriage and family and WHAT WORKS.

You are the world's foremost expert on what it's like to be married to your wife and what it's like to be the father of your children.  Not all of that expertise translates into objective principles applicable universally.  And that was my point: you look at the situation in the West, rightly identify the problems, and hold up another model without understanding it.  

It's not just you, either, so it's not like mine is a personal complaint against you.  If you had posted about how horrible and barbaric "arranged marriages" are, I would've also posted a corrective, because a lot of people have that misunderstanding, and they should know that, done properly, it is anything but horrible and barbaric.  But holding it up as an ideal is also wrong.  Like anything else humans do, it has its pros and cons and a variable success rate.  
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« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2014, 11:56:12 AM »

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One of the reasons the divorce rate is relatively low is because a lot of women are forced into marriage,
This was quite common in the O.T. as many other cultures of that time, even many Europeans had bascially "arranged" marriages, nothing new here.

I don't even believe that it is necassarily a bad thing, look around these days and see with all the "freedom" the West has in who to marry and see either how many failed marriages there are or just how downright miserable and lonely people are because they can't find the perfect 'soulmate" to stay with for the rest of their lives. I do not really condone "forced" marriages but believe the family should absolutley be more involved in finding a suitable mate for their child or at least be involved in courting their relationship, all this freedom has gotten us into a lot of trouble lately.

It's a mistake to conflate "forced" and "arranged" marriages.  Not all arranged marriages are forced, but all forced marriages are arranged.  Arranged marriages are more or less what some Christians promote under the name "courtship".  Your family is involved in the process, searching out "candidates" and/or evaluating those you have an interest in, but usually the person getting married has a say.  In a forced marriage, you don't really have a say.

Like the Western "free" model, arranged marriages can work (my parents' did) or they can fail.  When they fail (having observed many situations in the midst of a traditional culture, I think I can speak with some authority), they may nevertheless not end in divorce.  This often has more to do with the social stigma attached to divorce than it does to any "communal" effort to save the marriage.  In other words, pressure is exerted upon the couple to keep it together and find a way to live with it because "marriage is permanent", or "you will bring shame upon us", "we will disown you", or "your children will hate you", etc.  If an arranged marriage works or is at least endured, the family will take credit for having done well for their children.  If it fails, they will blame the couple exclusively and wash their hands of as much responsibility as possible.     

I've seen families put pressure on their children, especially their daughters, to endure at the hands of their spouses verbal and emotional abuse, domestic violence, and even marital rape and other forms of sexual abuse because of the shame that will come from "public awareness" of the existence of problems, the shame of divorce, the effects it will have on other members of the family and their ability to succeed in life (and if it wasn't bad enough that they would be this way with their children, they will also find ways to excuse the abuse endured by their grandchildren).  Parents of daughters often blame them for provoking the problems in their sons-in-law and basically tell them to go along with it, even if it means submitting to beatings, being sexually subservient, etc.  Professional counseling, police intervention, none of these are encouraged, and many times are actively discouraged because "Western society doesn't share our values".  In order to "save" the whole, they are willing to sacrifice an individual, hoping that it works out.  If it ends up killing their child inside (if not outside as well), they will find their own way of making peace with that. 

The worst is when all these things are put to the person as God's will for them: "God would want you to turn the other cheek", "God would want you to give your body to your husband as much as he wants, so just give it to him the way he likes it", "God will curse you for divorce because he loves children"...even from the mouths of clergy, who may be the only people the family will allow in from outside the family to "fix the problem", but who may approach it from the same warped mentality as everyone else.  If the marriage ends in divorce, maybe the couple has a chance to get out of a bad situation and move on to a better one for themselves individually and for their children, but without the family understanding that, they're simply exchanging one problem for another, "different" problem.  If the marriage stays intact, it can be because the problems and the people were healed (thank God), but it can also be (and more often is) because people are trapped in a corner and have no way out without feeling guilty for having failed others, so they prefer to let themselves die inside and hope their children "don't understand" what is being played out in front of them for years.  And later, the children repeat the cycle with their parents because they understood too well.  And at that point, they find a way to make peace with it.         

I don't pretend that the Western model is the best model or the biblical model or anything else: when both models "work", they work well and when they fail, they fail miserably.  But don't hold up "forced" or "arranged" marriages as if they are better because they have a lower divorce rate in some statistical analysis.  "Lower divorce rate" does not equal "successful, healthy marriage".  You have no idea what you're talking about.   

a sobering but very good post, Mor.  And a "lower divorce rate" can come from the women having no voice/ability to even try to escape from a horrible situation.  Then there are the cases where a woman is killed but excuses of "accidents" or "suicide" are used to cover things up.

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« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2014, 11:59:28 AM »



MAYBE THEY TOOK OUR WOMEN SOMEHOW??

PURE AND HOLY - THEY KNEW IT AND STOLD THEM FROM US - IM BEING SERIOUS IS THIS FEASABLE??


Would "stealing women" be an act of a righteous person?   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2014, 02:07:37 PM »


a sobering but very good post, Mor.  And a "lower divorce rate" can come from the women having no voice/ability to even try to escape from a horrible situation.  Then there are the cases where a woman is killed but excuses of "accidents" or "suicide" are used to cover things up.


In my personal opinion, the above statements come from Satan. He has used them to destroy families and marriages. They have been placed in all of our moral fibre and have nothing to do with biblical teaching.

Men are not animals that beat on women for fun. This goes against human nature. We're not all destructive sociopaths. Just use common sense.

When men get angry at women, there's a reason. Its not for sport and not for fun. I've had ex gf's attack me countless times. With shoes, claws, fangs. You name it. I'll never forger my one ex, who was a Hindu, and i was sleeping in the bed and i woke up to her giving me a FULL FORCE punch in the face. Yes.. Right while I was sleeping. Its funny looking back at it. Maybe it was me paying for everything, driving her everywhere, letting her live at my place rent free, dropping her off, and picking her up, dedicating all my life to her. Then she went back to Vancouver to visit him, got with her ex bf, and cheated on me. I was so nice and generous i took her back.

How did it end after 8 months? Me being an emotionally abusive man. I was abusive. Yup. A laughable joke that Satan has put into moral code.

You want to meet a real, true pius woman that is humble and loves me and appreciates me? Come meet my wife. You'll see what a real woman is about. We go to casino, eat out, go on vacation, drink, have fun. I buy her gifts and all that. But she isnt some new age woman that cries abuse. She hates feminism and has a natural dislike for 'ambitious' women. She dislikes school teachers and other wards of the state. She has a phobea of snakes. Thats a clue how righteous she is. Why? Cause the MUSLIMS DIDN'T STEAL HER AWAY FROM US.

LOOK HOW THEY STOLD THEM FROM AWAY FROM RIGHTEOUS MEN



The mother Mary



Pecious Wife and mother.. Im serious about the STEALING thing.. I dont have time to research

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« Reply #70 on: February 22, 2014, 02:13:42 PM »

Worst Post of the Month nominee.  Angry Good grief.
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« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2014, 03:07:23 PM »

Im serious about the STEALING thing.. I dont have time to research

 Cheesy
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« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2014, 03:08:23 PM »

Worst Post of the Month nominee.  Angry Good grief.

I agree.  But apparently, Ebor and I speak for Satan, so maybe I shouldn't agree with you and drag you down with us.  
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« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2014, 03:20:56 PM »

Men are not animals that beat on women for fun. This goes against human nature. We're not all destructive sociopaths. Just use common sense.

I agree, use common sense.  And part of that means that we can't derive wild ideas based on our personal experiences, however painful, and make them general principles applying to all humans everywhere and always. 

I'm sorry to have read about some of the things you have had to endure in your life (seriously).  Many men have suffered at the hands of women.  Many women have suffered at the hands of men.  Men have hurt men, women women, and it goes on and on.  We need to strive always to do and to be better, and a part of that is the effort to try and understand situations from multiple angles.  Parochialism is not conducive to humility, and without humility we can't discern true universals. 
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« Reply #74 on: February 22, 2014, 03:26:54 PM »


Really? I had the same line of friends, but I disagree that "Their women are so pure and righteous. No divorce. No ruined lives. No broken homes and families. No worries of cheating." is realistic a portrayal. Islam may teach those things, but Muslims don't practice them... not in my experience. In fact, I have seen veiled, practicing Muslims eating pork.

Those are exceptions with bad apples. Smiley

I feel like many of the men act like animals, but the women are often righteous. All the Muslims got married and none got divorced. I think there may be a legitimate possibility that they TOOK OUR WOMEN somehow. Think about it, the womans soul gets passed maternaly. The Jews have amongst the highest divorce rate.. The men seem one way, the women seem different.

MAYBE THEY TOOK OUR WOMEN SOMEHOW??

PURE AND HOLY - THEY KNEW IT AND STOLD THEM FROM US - IM BEING SERIOUS IS THIS FEASABLE??



I'm really confused. Who took our women now? Those are not just bad apples. I had lots of Muslim friends and acquaintances. Canada is just more Islamized than in the states.

I might have lost a few brain cells checking the posts above...
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« Reply #75 on: February 22, 2014, 03:38:26 PM »

Their women are so pure and righteous. No divorce. No ruined lives. No broken homes and families. No worries of cheating. No mr mom while wife goes out to party and Dad stays at home looking after kids and the wife doesnt call and comes home extra late. Non of that. The head covering brings out the best of them as women. The hair is a natural veil. The woman being veiled is natural for her. Its something us men dont understand.

You sound like you've never been around Muslims.   

I thought it was a joke.  If it isn't, then I think you hit the nail on the head.  Nay, I'll raise it to "You sound like you've never been around Muslims," with qualifiers, of course, e.g. many of them, for any real amount of time, etc.
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« Reply #76 on: February 23, 2014, 05:35:46 AM »

Worst Post of the Month nominee.  Angry Good grief.

I agree.  But apparently, Ebor and I speak for Satan, so maybe I shouldn't agree with you and drag you down with us.  

No i said that the 'moral belief' that women are 'trapped and abused' is feminist propeganda that was created by Satan in order to break down the family.

You know why women these days are ultra picky, single, into themselves, date losers that they cant have? Simple. They are listening to snakes. I go by what the Bible says. God cursed the woman that she would want to desire to be like her husband (proper translation), but he would always rule over her.  Women give life for all the world. The hold the power to take it away and destroy everything that is good. Man is good. He is designedmto the likeness of God. Women is designed to the likeness of man.

But women are prone to listening to lying snakes that fill their head up with nonsense. Like.. I would date women and they would all be paying for me trying to prove some sort of independant women angle. I couldnt be a man and take these women out properly. They would be convinced that every guy was stalking them. They's be paranoid of every little thing a man did. I can't imagine where these women got their ideas from?

Then to be here on the forum and have people say non-biblical things like women are trapped and cant speak up in order to leave. All that wife beating stuff was proven to be a feminist hoax. They claimed that men beat their wives more during the super bowl. For decades people took it as real until it was discovered it was a hoax. Who here remembers that Super Bowl hoax.

All I've personally seen is women beating the hell out of men and attacking them. The men get labeled as abusers just because you dont like their friends. They'll find any excuse. Everything is some sort of abuse to them. These are the women of the new age.

This is not biblical or kosher to say that women are trapped slaves and cant leave. This promotes the myth that men are evil. We're not evil - its just that women corrupt us. They can destroy lives, destroy societies, and as the Bible said, destroy lofe in a perfect peaceful garden.

The odd time people would call up the radio and tell the horroble things that happened to them in their divorce. Trust me they'll come and ARREST you. The police will arest you with any TINY HINT of domestic abuse. The women will take the kids away from their father, start sticking the kids with baby sitters as the wife has no headship so is out pursuing her own desires rather than being a mother. The kids end up broken and continue the chains of divorce. The stats prove all this. Oh and they'll demand money and payments every month, REGARDLESS if they've remarried to a rich husband, you still gotta pay. The judges never rule on the mens side. It's

Thank God, praise God, that He has blessed me with a good wife. Maybe the muslims didnt get around to STEALING her from Christians. My hunches tell me they STOLD them away from us when they took over.

A married Muslim as she walks by one of our Churches.. Reflecting on her past generations as she feels her soul connecting back to where she used to belong.



Mother Mary



Is there any way they could have seriosuly STOLEN our women in the past??? Any clues or ideas??
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« Reply #77 on: February 23, 2014, 06:40:33 AM »

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Neither do you enter into them without freedom without affecting their validity in some way. Just ask your diocesan marriage tribunal. 

Well if you're talking about a valid RC marriage that's true. But if the both bride and groom enter the marriage on their own volition than they must honor the covenant and marital vows. You don't seem to get that the Sacrament of Matrimony is a permanent and Holy union........and you don't play fast and loose with a Sacrament. I'm not talking about Oriental, Muslim "forced" marriages here.

Quote
1.  You obviously are a Westerner looking in on something you have no clue about and fancying yourself an expert.

I told you I've been married a long time raising children, I have seen way too many "Western" marriages fall by the wayside because of all this so-called "freedom" in them choosing their mates and the families having absolutely no say in the selection process. In all the failed marriages I have observed over the years there has been one main consistent, that the family (especially of the daughter) were told basically to stay out of their business and went ahead acting like a whore, living(in sin) with their "partner" before they got hitched (usually not in a church) and then demand that the families pay for their faux weddings, weddings that eventually failed, almost to a tee. I know the many factors that are a recipe for a successful marriage or a complete failure, I've been around and married a lot longer than you, I think that makes me more of an "expert" than yourself. Am I an expert of "forced" marriages? No, I'm sure that's your expertise and you can tell us all about it. But can you tell us all WHY more than half of all Western marriages today fail as opposed to all them mean ol nasty Muslims that "force" their people to stay together?

Quote
  It's not so simple as "(the men) straighten this IDIOT out" in a patriarchally structured society.  For instance, in my culture, when a woman is married off to a man, she's considered to have left her family and joined her husband's.  If the men in her husband's family are not willing to straighten the IDIOT out for their daughter-in-law/sister-in-law's sake, the men in the woman's family are likely to be extra hesitant to get involved in any way you think they should.  They are more likely to encourage their daughter/sister to "fix it", "obey your husband", "don't come crying to us", etc.  For them to intervene to fix their IDIOT-in-law would not go over well with anyone as a long term solution. 

Well that's difference between Western and Eastern culture I guess, in the West men are accountable for their actions.......well they used to be at least. But trust me, in my family, if you abuse our women, you will be held accountable.

Quote
Re: the bold, yes, those are problems.  I'm glad you can see that "stuff happens" in "traditional" models of courtship and marriage, and it's not all perfect. 

Far from perfect, but far more successful than modern day travesty's called "marriage" today.
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« Reply #78 on: February 23, 2014, 01:36:25 PM »


Well that's difference between Western and Eastern culture I guess, in the West men are accountable for their actions.......well they used to be at least. But trust me, in my family, if you abuse our women, you will be held accountable.

Quote
Re: the bold, yes, those are problems.  I'm glad you can see that "stuff happens" in "traditional" models of courtship and marriage, and it's not all perfect. 

Far from perfect, but far more successful than modern day travesty's called "marriage" today.

It's another myth that muslims get forced and even arranged marriages. People confuse arab islam with Pakistani south asian Islam (many muslims call them fake Muslims) where arranged marriages and paying bribe money is part of the deal. I can attest that practice is alive and well from the idol worshopers and it goes on here into the second generation.

Real Muslims have a different case. Paying bribe money is forbidden (haram). All (vast majority) of the girls are vigins, all the boys are considered kosher for marriage. Girls are allowed to meet boys on their own. These girls arent all princess. They gossip and like boys a LOT. They act bad behind close doors with their girlfriends when they let down their hair. They meet boys.

The girls have to be in public places. They are not allowed to physically touch while dating. They arent allowed to get close enough where they can 'feel the breath' on their face. They will often cheat and even make out, but real sexual relations doesnt happen almost all of the time. Because they dont date and sleep around, their sex lives dont get corrupted. After you've slept with many people, it curses your sex life but thats another topic.

This whole thing about men keeping women as slaves are just common myths. The women leaving their families? Lol thats a joke. Families allowing their own sisters and daughters do be beaten? Lol.. Heck no. You'll get in a huge family war and divorce if that happens. Its like the Super Bowl myths that are created by Satan to promote this women good, men evil myth.

Imagine living in the 1950's. Its just understood that all the boys and girls were kosher. Most got married out of highschool and the marriages lasted. When feminism hit, the divorce rate exploded as Satan began to work to destroy the family unit. Today, women are working all the jobs that men used to work because male managers for some reason feel the staff need to be made out of women. IT departments with women managers and women staff. I mean.. Lets get real. How much are men going to get pushed down and beaten.

Where did this moral value that men are bad, women are good come from? Yes I know.

The marriage is a serious, covenant under God. It's the role of the layperson. It's not something to be toyed around with. In this day and age, parents need a say in who their daughters will be allowed to date. My daughter? She's 2 now and she's not allowed to date. Simple enough. She'll be covering her head in church. She'll understand that her role is to get married - not to be ambitious and perfer her own selfish desires. If she gets divorced, it will destroy her life and my life. Sometimes I think she should just go to a muslim school lol.. Just kidding.

Divorce Should be out of the question. The girl below has vowed never to physically touch another man. Now thats pius and righteous. Did they STEAL them from us?



No divorce. Not happening:

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« Reply #79 on: February 23, 2014, 01:41:03 PM »

I'm sure Nujood Ali would roll her eyes there.
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« Reply #80 on: February 23, 2014, 01:45:30 PM »



Lol that's not how I interpret the story:




Hmm, that's how our priest interprets it.....

It says that all nation can find Gods blessing through Abraham and his descendents (jews/christ).

The key word is FIND.  We as Orthodox have found it. A portion of the world doest care to. I live with them. These people practice selish motivation. The religion of 'self'. They are idol worshopers. That just how they chose to live and the bible does not support living with these other nations and intermixing. My daughter must marry another Christian. Yes i've become one of 'those' people.
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« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2014, 01:48:29 PM »

I'm sure Nujood Ali would roll her eyes there.

Irrelevant.  Didn't you see the picture of the happy couple above?  Case closed.
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« Reply #82 on: February 23, 2014, 01:57:08 PM »

I'm sure Nujood Ali would roll her eyes there.
Quote
Nujood Ali was nine when her parents arranged a marriage to Faez Ali Thamer, a man in his thirties.
So this is what I was talking about. what kind of "parents" allow their nine yr old daughter to be arranged to marry some guy in his thirties?

I think a lot of this stuff has more to do with culture than religion and I'm not just picking on the Arabs, a good part of Africa and Asia are into this condoned pedophilia crap. but let's be honest a lot of this legitimate kiddie diddling is going on in the West these days due to a overwhelming penetration and acceptance of this "diversity" garbage. Not too mention we've become sexually depraved ourselves giving in to the culture destroyers.
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« Reply #83 on: February 23, 2014, 01:59:35 PM »

Is there any way they could have seriosuly STOLEN our women in the past??? Any clues or ideas??

No. How would this even work? Is modesty an immutable characteristic?
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« Reply #84 on: February 23, 2014, 02:10:48 PM »

I'm sure Nujood Ali would roll her eyes there.

Yes she is the on person out of millions that steps forward and makes money off a book to promote myths how men are evil.

If you chose to believe in feminist, satanic inspired writings with those books that fine. Let feminists like her polute your morals. Its your free will that God gives you to see both sides and make a descision.

If people are selling off kids, those are minoities that are being used to promote a Satan driven agenda.

-Did you know that where i'm from everyone has twins? Yeah its true. i had twins so everyone has twins. We need to stop this.. Too many kids filling the world. Lets get the govt involved, write books, and spread awareness over all these twins. Look! This lady in my city had twins also. She's coming foward too! OMG! Datline NBC, CNN! They are reporting that there is now a coalition of 7 women in the city coming forward saying that they had twins!!! And it's counting!

-Lets ask a secular university athiest who's never worked a day in his life what he thinks is the problem: "well the mens chromozones seem to be the problem here destroying these women with the burden of twins. These chromozones seem to stem from too much testosterone. This also promotes abuse and wife beating. We'll soon have too many kids which adds to c02 admissions so change so thats also of greate concern."

So we see that people having twins is of great concern as it's a normal thing in the middle east. They are those weirdos that have twins. We in the west need to ensure that we dont have any kids or we might end up with twins like all thise weirdos in the middle east who have nothing but twins.

If you let some silly little pathetic feminist book of Satan destroy your own moral system concerning marriage, then wow I truly feel bad that you allow this.
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« Reply #85 on: February 23, 2014, 02:20:47 PM »

I'm sure Nujood Ali would roll her eyes there.
Quote
Nujood Ali was nine when her parents arranged a marriage to Faez Ali Thamer, a man in his thirties.
So this is what I was talking about. what kind of "parents" allow their nine yr old daughter to be arranged to marry some guy in his thirties?

The kind of devout parents who take Aisha as the ultimate female role model.
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« Reply #86 on: February 23, 2014, 02:24:03 PM »

I'm sure Nujood Ali would roll her eyes there.

Yes she is the on person out of millions that steps forward and makes money off a book to promote myths how men are evil.

If you chose to believe in feminist, satanic inspired writings with those books that fine. Let feminists like her polute your morals. Its your free will that God gives you to see both sides and make a descision.

If people are selling off kids, those are minoities that are being used to promote a Satan driven agenda.

-Did you know that where i'm from everyone has twins? Yeah its true. i had twins so everyone has twins. We need to stop this.. Too many kids filling the world. Lets get the govt involved, write books, and spread awareness over all these twins. Look! This lady in my city had twins also. She's coming foward too! OMG! Datline NBC, CNN! They are reporting that there is now a coalition of 7 women in the city coming forward saying that they had twins!!! And it's counting!

-Lets ask a secular university athiest who's never worked a day in his life what he thinks is the problem: "well the mens chromozones seem to be the problem here destroying these women with the burden of twins. These chromozones seem to stem from too much testosterone. This also promotes abuse and wife beating. We'll soon have too many kids which adds to c02 admissions so change so thats also of greate concern."

So we see that people having twins is of great concern as it's a normal thing in the middle east. They are those weirdos that have twins. We in the west need to ensure that we dont have any kids or we might end up with twins like all thise weirdos in the middle east who have nothing but twins.

If you let some silly little pathetic feminist book of Satan destroy your own moral system concerning marriage, then wow I truly feel bad that you allow this.

My morals are fine, thank you very much. I'm grateful every day that my parents didn't find me a suitable husband as soon as I was out of school, and allowed me to be picky and wait for Mr Right, however long it took.

Keep crying 'satanic feminist propaganda' until you're blue in the face. Marrying off a nine-year-old to someone old enough to be her father is never right. Even if it's the only case ever.
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« Reply #87 on: February 23, 2014, 02:26:16 PM »

I'm sure Nujood Ali would roll her eyes there.
Quote
Nujood Ali was nine when her parents arranged a marriage to Faez Ali Thamer, a man in his thirties.
So this is what I was talking about. what kind of "parents" allow their nine yr old daughter to be arranged to marry some guy in his thirties?

The kind of devout parents who take Aisha as the ultimate female role model.
Well maybe their religious kooks like Abu Bakr as well.

Marrying off nine yr olds to old men., give me a break.

That's the reason for this thread, were Mohamed and all his people nutz?
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« Reply #88 on: February 23, 2014, 07:02:18 PM »

She dislikes school teachers

*facepalm*
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« Reply #89 on: February 23, 2014, 09:56:11 PM »

I'm sure Nujood Ali would roll her eyes there.
Quote
Nujood Ali was nine when her parents arranged a marriage to Faez Ali Thamer, a man in his thirties.
So this is what I was talking about. what kind of "parents" allow their nine yr old daughter to be arranged to marry some guy in his thirties?

The kind of devout parents who take Aisha as the ultimate female role model.
Well maybe their religious kooks like Abu Bakr as well.

Marrying off nine yr olds to old men., give me a break.

That's the reason for this thread, were Mohamed and all his people nutz?

I thought your OP was about Mohammed alone, not "Mohammed and all his people."

Modern day pyscho-analysis of historical figures is not standard historical methodology. 

See St. John of Damascus (Damascene) On Heresies for a more contemporary view of 'Ishmaelites'.  He found them to be a form of Christian heresy and laughable in their beliefs.   Things have evolved since St. John wrote on them. 

Through the readings of the Desert Fathers and Mothers (hat or headscarf tip to Asteriksos) we see that some go off to lives of solitude and prayer in caves and can indeed succumb to insanity.  Many see visions of 'angels' which are in fact demons.  This phenomena is also addressed in the New Testament.  The humble monk who doesn't want to be deceived refuses to find himself worthy of visitation by angels and will wait for God to make clear the way he should go on any given matter.  Despair is not of God.  Repentance and weeping for one's sins, yes, despair, no.

So there may be a legitimate question about whether he was talking with demons, but it is a little late now to do anything about it since an entire religion has been constructed around him as with other charismatic figures.

Overall, it is better to focus on our own faith and follow God's commandments as we have received them through the Incarnation of Christ Jesus (love God with all one's heart, mind, soul, body and one's neighbour as one's self, etc.) 
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