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Author Topic: Happy Reformation Day!  (Read 1668 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2013, 01:27:37 PM »

Let the reformation continue.
Let it reform into an earlier Christianity closer to how it was back in the day. Viva la Orthodoxy!

I'd prefer a living Christianity to an ossified one.
I'll make sure your skull is placed in an ossuary on Mt Athos.
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« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2013, 01:57:23 PM »

How was it bad? Generally speaking, an irreconcilable distortion of the Eucharist, episcopate/ecclesiology, for starters.

The Roman Catholic sacraments, such as the Eucharist and Holy Orders have, for long periods, been considered invalid or at the very least suspect.

And we've had too many encounters with Protestants throughout the centuries to consider their creation and existence as an irrelevant isolated phenomenon with no impact on us.

Yes, they sent missionaries to the East, but so did the Propaganda Fide.

It's pretty revisionist for an Orthodox Christian to try and spin the Protestant Revolution in a positive light.

No. The first response of the Orthodox to the Reformation was quite positive. There were cordial relations with the Hussites and the Anglicans. Up until the appearence of the Bible Societies in the 19th-century the Protestants were held in a much higher regard than the Roman Catholics.

The fact that there was dialogue does not mean that they were seen "positively." As you yourself have pointed out, even Nestorius was greeted with honors by Cyril. And the dialogue quickly ended when it was discovered that the Protestants were going to persist in heresy.

From whom did the Orthodox borrow their theological language in the seventeenth centuries and up? The Protestants or the Romans?
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« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2013, 02:06:46 PM »

From whom did the Orthodox borrow their theological language in the seventeenth centuries and up? The Protestants or the Romans?

Both.

The fact that there was dialogue does not mean that they were seen "positively." As you yourself have pointed out, even Nestorius was greeted with honors by Cyril. And the dialogue quickly ended when it was discovered that the Protestants were going to persist in heresy.

Friendly dialogue was, at any rate, better than the insults that were heaped upon the Roman Catholics by the Orthodox.
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« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2013, 02:08:57 PM »

IMHO you all are missing the greater implications of Oct 31st.
 
For it is TODAY that Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Protestants alike can celebrate together;

  the extra candy and chocolate go on sale!!!

My friend, my friend, I have concern for you for this is apostasy. Orthodox remember the dead with koliva, not candy. Candy is for the passions. It is as bad as cigarettes as far as the Toll Houses are concerned.
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« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2013, 02:18:37 PM »

From whom did the Orthodox borrow their theological language in the seventeenth centuries and up? The Protestants or the Romans?

Both.

Examples of borrowed Protestant terminology?
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« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2013, 02:30:43 PM »

Let the reformation continue.
Let it reform into an earlier Christianity closer to how it was back in the day. Viva la Orthodoxy!

I'd prefer a living Christianity to an ossified one.
That's ok. Ezekial 37 is part of the Orthodox Bible. It is better to be a dry bone with both form built and life breathed in by God than to miss part of the work of the Lord.
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« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2013, 02:31:55 PM »

From whom did the Orthodox borrow their theological language in the seventeenth centuries and up? The Protestants or the Romans?

Both.

The fact that there was dialogue does not mean that they were seen "positively." As you yourself have pointed out, even Nestorius was greeted with honors by Cyril. And the dialogue quickly ended when it was discovered that the Protestants were going to persist in heresy.

Friendly dialogue was, at any rate, better than the insults that were heaped upon the Roman Catholics by the Orthodox.

There was a period of time in the incipient stages of the Reformation that some Orthodox church leaders hoped the movement might nudge the Roman church back to Orthodoxy. William's take is accurate as it readily became apparent that there was little if any common ground between the Reformers and the Orthodox but for their mutual antipathy towards Rome. As the Reformer's clear disdain for and derogation of Holy Tradition became known, that was the end of the initial euphoria, so much as there was.
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« Reply #52 on: November 01, 2013, 02:41:17 PM »

From whom did the Orthodox borrow their theological language in the seventeenth centuries and up? The Protestants or the Romans?

Both.

Examples of borrowed Protestant terminology?

Orthodox theological works of the 16th-19th century aren't good literature and probably aren't even translated, but I have this:

Quote
"The inevitable result of this [i.e. of the copying of western theological questions and language] of course was that, as step by step they entangled themselves more and more in Latino-Protestant antinomies, the Orthodox theologians themselves ended up being divided into two sections. They formed themselves into two schools, the one exclusively anti-Latin, the other exclusively anti-Protestant; an Orthodox school in the strictest sense of the word ceased to exist.

 [...]

In the first place, the anti-Latin school admitted into itself a Protestant, and the anti-Protestant a Latin leaven."

etc. etc.

-George Samarin

(link)
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« Reply #53 on: November 01, 2013, 03:49:00 PM »

Apokrisis by Chrystofor Filatel
Works by monk John (Vyshenski)
Works by bp Meletius (Smotrycki) (when he was Orthodox)

and many others
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« Reply #54 on: November 01, 2013, 04:28:51 PM »

The Reformation itself... not so much. One of the biggest disasters in human history.

I have to agree with this and reiterate what I said in the other Reformation Day thread (not sure why there are two): I don't see why any Orthodox Christian would commemorate or celebrate the day on which (Western) Christendom began the process by which it eventually became so fragmented that it shall never again be reconciled this side of the Parousia.  To me, the beginning of the Reformation is one of the saddest days in history if we consider Our Lord's wish that we might be one in Him.  Before the advent of the multifarious Protestant "denominations" - when only the liturgical and Apostolic churches existed - there was at least the hope (however distant and far-fetched) that Christendom might again be reunited.  Now, that hope is gone and the opposite is true.  More "denominations" emerge every day and the division of those who call themselves Christians grows exponentially.  Because of the Reformation, however well-intentioned Martin Luther might have been, the idea of a united Christendom in this is world gone for good.

Oh, and as far as the Reformation Day vs. Halloween thing goes, John Calvin and his crew are scarier by far than Freddy Krueger, Michael Myers, and Jason Vorhees joy-riding around Sleepy Hollow in Christine.  Just ask Michael Servetus!
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« Reply #55 on: November 01, 2013, 05:06:04 PM »


Oh, and as far as the Reformation Day vs. Halloween thing goes, John Calvin and his crew are scarier by far than Freddy Krueger, Michael Myers, and Jason Vorhees joy-riding around Sleepy Hollow in Christine.  Just ask Michael Servetus!
Not sure the Orthodox should point to how a group treated people with varying Christologies as a reason why it's awful.
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« Reply #56 on: November 01, 2013, 05:52:52 PM »

Not sure the Orthodox should point to how a group treated people with varying Christologies as a reason why it's awful.

As a Miaphysite, I agree in principal (though Servetus was burned alive for denying the Trinity and a dispute about infant baptism, not Christology), but there's something about the account of Calvin and Servetus that I find particularly affecting.  I'm a historian by training, so I'm not unaccustomed to graphic firsthand accounts of humans being horrible to one another, but the Calvin/Servetus thing is one I find particularly gut-wrenching.

First of all, Calvin was out to get this guy for (partly) personal reasons from the word go.  The two had been corresponding about the nature of the Trinity and other issues for awhile and Calvin didn't like it that Servetus had to gall to correct him (in a very snide way) on more than a few occassions.  It wasn't just theological, Calvin seemed to take personal offense.  A full seven years before Servetus ever set foot in Geneva Calvin wrote to his buddy William Farel:

Quote
If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight.

He definitely had it in for the guy, and the premeditation makes what eventually happened all the more creepy.  When Servetus, fleeing the Inquisition, made the mistake of stopping in Geneva and attending one of Calvin's sermons, he was seized by Calvin's cohorts.  Once Calvin had this man in his power, he seemed to make a point of getting him back for his perceived slights.  He had Servetus locked in a cramped, dank  dungeon with no light, heat, or sanitary facilities and hardly fed him at all.

The accounts of the actual execution are particularly pathetic:

Quote
When Servetus, on the following morning, heard of the unexpected sentence of death, he was horror-struck and behaved like a madman. He uttered groans, and cried aloud in Spanish, "Mercy, mercy!"

The venerable old Farel visited him in the prison at seven in the morning, and remained with him till the hour of his death. He tried to convince him of his error. Servetus asked him to quote a single Scripture passage where Christ was called "Son of God" before his incarnation. Farel could not satisfy him. He brought about an interview with Calvin, of which the latter gives us an account. Servetus, proud as he was, humbly asked his pardon. Calvin protested that be had never pursued any personal quarrel against him. "Sixteen years ago," he said, "I spared no pains at Paris to gain you to our Lord. You then shunned the light. I did not cease to exhort you by letters, but all in vain. You have heaped upon me I know not how much fury rather than anger. But as to the rest, I pass by what concerns myself. Think rather of crying for mercy to God whom you have blasphemed."  This address had no more effect than the exhortation of Farel, and Calvin left the room in obedience, as he says, to St. Paul’s order (Tit. 3:10, 11), to withdraw from a self-condemned heretic. Servetus appeared as mild and humble as he had been bold and arrogant, but did not change his conviction.

At eleven o’clock on the 27th of October, Servetus was led from the prison to the gates of the City Hall, to hear the sentence read from the balcony by the Lord Syndic Darlod. When he heard the last words, he fell on his knees and exclaimed: "The sword! in mercy!  and not fire!  Or I may lose my soul in despair."  He protested that if he had sinned, it was through ignorance. Farel raised him up and said: "Confess thy crime, and God will have mercy on your soul."  Servetus replied:, I am not guilty; I have not merited death."  Then he smote his breast, invoked God for pardon, confessed Christ as his Saviour, and besought God to pardon his accusers.

On the short journey to the place of execution, Farel again attempted to obtain a confession, but Servetus was silent. He showed the courage and consistency of a martyr in these last awful moments.

Champel is a little bill south of Geneva with a fine view on one of the loveliest paradises of nature.  There was prepared a funeral pile hidden in part by the autumnal leaves of the oak trees. The Lord Lieutenant and the herald on horseback, both arrayed in the insignia of their office, arrive with the doomed man and the old pastor, followed by a small procession of spectators. Farel invites Servetus to solicit the prayers of the people and to unite his prayers with theirs. Servetus obeys in silence. The executioner fastens him by iron chains to the stake amidst the fagots, puts a crown of leaves covered with sulphur on his head, and binds his book by his side. The sight of the flaming torch extorts from him a piercing shriek of "misericordias" in his native tongue. The spectators fall back with a shudder. The flames soon reach him and consume his mortal frame in the forty-fourth year of his fitful life. In the last moment he is heard to pray, in smoke and agony, with a loud voice: "Jesus Christ, thou Son of the eternal God, have mercy upon me!"

Quote
Farel walked beside the condemned man, and kept up a constant barrage of words, in complete insensitivity to what Servetus might be feeling. All he had in mind was to extort from the prisoner an acknowledgement [sic] of his theological error -- a shocking example of the soulless cure of souls. After some minutes of this, Servetus ceased making any reply and prayed quietly to himself. When they arrived at the place of execution, Farel announced to the watching crowd: 'Here you see what power Satan possesses when he has a man in his power. This man is a scholar of distinction, and he perhaps believed he was acting rightly. But now Satan possesses him completely, as he might possess you, should you fall into his traps.'

When the executioner began his work, Servetus whispered with trembling voice: 'Oh God, Oh God!' The thwarted Farel snapped at him: 'Have you nothing else to say?' This time Servetus replied to him: 'What else might I do, but speak of God!' Thereupon he was lifted onto the pyre and chained to the stake. A wreath strewn with sulfur was placed on his head. When the faggots were ignited, a piercing cry of horror broke from him. 'Mercy, mercy!' he cried. For more than half an hour the horrible agony continued, for the pyre had been made of half-green wood, which burned slowly. 'Jesus, Son of the eternal God, have mercy on me,' the tormented man cried from the midst of the flames ....

http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/8_ch16.htm

Like I said, I've read lots of horrible stuff, but this story always got to me.  Something about the poor guy going mad anticipating his fate, begging for the sword instead of fire to no avail, the Calvinists putting a wreath of sulfur on his head and half-green wood around his feet to prolong the torture (it took more than 30 minutes to actually kill him in this way) and the callous, self-righteous attitude of Calvin, Farel, et cetera.  I'm not pointing to this account as a reason to disprove Calvinism - it falls apart on its own easily enough without that - I'm just saying that this story is truly scarier than anything Hollywood has ever dreamed up for a Halloween movie marathon.  I stand by that.
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« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2013, 06:03:52 PM »

  I'm a historian by training, so I'm not unaccustomed to graphic firsthand accounts of humans being horrible to one another, but the Calvin/Servetus thing is one I find particularly gut-wrenching.

Really? Never heard of Phalaris (the tyrant, not the plant)? Burning at the stake wasn't too uncommon in those days, and it certainly wasn't the most painful way to execute someone.

Still, burning people at the stake is pretty bad and I strongly disprove of it.
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« Reply #58 on: November 01, 2013, 06:11:42 PM »

Really? Never heard of Phalaris (the tyrant, not the plant)? Burning at the stake wasn't too uncommon in those days, and it certainly wasn't the most painful way to execute someone.

Your point?  Did I say that this was bar none the most horrible account of anyone's slow and painful death to be found in the corpus of human history?  Or did I say that it was just one among the thousands that stood out in my eyes and that I personally found to be moving for reasons already described?

You don't have to go to Phalaris and his brazen bull to find accounts that rival this one in terms of sheer cruelty, just crack the spine on your Synaxarium.  That still doesn't negate anything I've posted above.
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« Reply #59 on: November 01, 2013, 06:50:51 PM »

I've always wondered why this hasn't been renamed Pepperoni Pizza day? After all, they did tend to pick off toppings, leaving only dry, tasteless dough.
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« Reply #60 on: November 01, 2013, 07:40:38 PM »

I've always wondered why this hasn't been renamed Pepperoni Pizza day? After all, they did tend to pick off toppings, leaving only dry, tasteless dough.

The toppings of the particular pizza happened to be rotten.
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« Reply #61 on: November 01, 2013, 07:43:33 PM »

Well, I have to say that a lot of Protestant churches do have nice choirs, so, not a total loss.  Wink
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« Reply #62 on: November 01, 2013, 08:02:01 PM »

Not sure the Orthodox should point to how a group treated people with varying Christologies as a reason why it's awful.

As a Miaphysite, I agree in principal (though Servetus was burned alive for denying the Trinity and a dispute about infant baptism, not Christology), but there's something about the account of Calvin and Servetus that I find particularly affecting...
I mention Christology because Servetus's non-trinitarianism was shaped in part by beliefs similar in some respects to Arianism. In my mind, Christology and triadology are all tied together.

And don't get me wrong, I've got nothing but a bad taste in my mouth for Calvin and his misapprehension of God. I've read more Calvin than the average layperson (though not in recent years), and I believe I understand from whence much of his -- ahem -- zeal came, but his error still has all sort of repercussions centuries later.
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« Reply #63 on: November 01, 2013, 08:56:02 PM »

What was going on in "Holy Russia" at roughly the time of the Reformation?  Oh yeah, Ivan IV . .  don't some people want him canonized?  (I'll leave off his moniker lest I be accused of not really knowing what Ива́н Гро́зный​ means).
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« Reply #64 on: November 01, 2013, 09:00:09 PM »

Oh yeah, Ivan IV . .  don't some people want him canonized? 

Only by ultramonarchist/ultranationalist fringe groups (I'm being kind in my terminology). But it won't happen, not while St Philip, Metropolitan of Moscow, remains a saint. To canonize Ivan means that St Philip would have to be "uncanonized". It's impossible to venerate both the murderer and his victim.
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« Reply #65 on: November 01, 2013, 10:57:57 PM »

Not sure the Orthodox should point to how a group treated people with varying Christologies as a reason why it's awful.

As a Miaphysite, I agree in principal (though Servetus was burned alive for denying the Trinity and a dispute about infant baptism, not Christology), but there's something about the account of Calvin and Servetus that I find particularly affecting...
I mention Christology because Servetus's non-trinitarianism was shaped in part by beliefs similar in some respects to Arianism. In my mind, Christology and triadology are all tied together.

And don't get me wrong, I've got nothing but a bad taste in my mouth for Calvin and his misapprehension of God. I've read more Calvin than the average layperson (though not in recent years), and I believe I understand from whence much of his -- ahem -- zeal came, but his error still has all sort of repercussions centuries later.


I know what you mean; I remember when I had to read Jonathan Edwards and Milton for my literature classes back in high school. Milton; brilliant poet and writer, questionable beliefs about salvation. (then again, Protestants don't exactly have the concept of theosis, especially not Calvinists). And Edwards... the less a say about Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God, the better. That thing scared the Barsanuphius out of me.
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« Reply #66 on: November 02, 2013, 08:43:24 AM »

I mention Christology because Servetus's non-trinitarianism was shaped in part by beliefs similar in some respects to Arianism. In my mind, Christology and triadology are all tied together.

True and fair enough.

What was going on in "Holy Russia" at roughly the time of the Reformation?  Oh yeah, Ivan IV . .

laugh So are we acknowledging that Ivan and Calvin were both scary, homicidal nuts with all manner of crackpot ideas who should not be followed or emulated?

Oh yeah, Ivan IV . .  don't some people want him canonized? 

Only by ultramonarchist/ultranationalist fringe groups (I'm being kind in my terminology). But it won't happen, not while St Philip, Metropolitan of Moscow, remains a saint. To canonize Ivan means that St Philip would have to be "uncanonized". It's impossible to venerate both the murderer and his victim.

Bingo.
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« Reply #67 on: November 02, 2013, 08:58:46 PM »

And Edwards... the less a say about Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God, the better. That thing scared the Barsanuphius out of me.

I remember that one too. It didn't help that it came right after the much gentler Edward Taylor. I felt sincerely sorry for the people who got the live premiere.
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« Reply #68 on: November 02, 2013, 09:04:53 PM »

And Edwards... the less a say about Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God, the better. That thing scared the Barsanuphius out of me.

You read one excerpt from one sermon and cast judgement?
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« Reply #69 on: November 02, 2013, 09:33:42 PM »

I like Halloween better. Although I truly admire Martin Luther particularly as a person.

The Reformation itself... not so much. One of the biggest disasters in human history.
You are right.  It proved who followed the scriptures, and who did not, and the disaster was the Catholic church.

God told us to "Love our enemies".   The RC church showed their love in strange ways.


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« Reply #70 on: November 02, 2013, 09:38:25 PM »

And Edwards... the less a say about Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God, the better. That thing scared the Barsanuphius out of me.

You read one excerpt from one sermon and cast judgement?
We are remembered by our extremes.

I have a volume of Edwards a friend gave me years ago that is much gentler. I think the reason "Sinners in the Hands..." gets read so often is it has lots of imagery. I think my first exposure to it in full was in an American literature class.
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« Reply #71 on: November 02, 2013, 10:01:30 PM »

Not sure the Orthodox should point to how a group treated people with varying Christologies as a reason why it's awful.

As a Miaphysite, I agree in principal (though Servetus was burned alive for denying the Trinity and a dispute about infant baptism, not Christology), but there's something about the account of Calvin and Servetus that I find particularly affecting.  I'm a historian by training, so I'm not unaccustomed to graphic firsthand accounts of humans being horrible to one another, but the Calvin/Servetus thing is one I find particularly gut-wrenching.

First of all, Calvin was out to get this guy for (partly) personal reasons from the word go.  The two had been corresponding about the nature of the Trinity and other issues for awhile and Calvin didn't like it that Servetus had to gall to correct him (in a very snide way) on more than a few occassions.  It wasn't just theological, Calvin seemed to take personal offense.  A full seven years before Servetus ever set foot in Geneva Calvin wrote to his buddy William Farel:

Quote
If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight.

He definitely had it in for the guy, and the premeditation makes what eventually happened all the more creepy.  When Servetus, fleeing the Inquisition, made the mistake of stopping in Geneva and attending one of Calvin's sermons, he was seized by Calvin's cohorts.  Once Calvin had this man in his power, he seemed to make a point of getting him back for his perceived slights.  He had Servetus locked in a cramped, dank  dungeon with no light, heat, or sanitary facilities and hardly fed him at all.

The accounts of the actual execution are particularly pathetic:

Quote
When Servetus, on the following morning, heard of the unexpected sentence of death, he was horror-struck and behaved like a madman. He uttered groans, and cried aloud in Spanish, "Mercy, mercy!"

The venerable old Farel visited him in the prison at seven in the morning, and remained with him till the hour of his death. He tried to convince him of his error. Servetus asked him to quote a single Scripture passage where Christ was called "Son of God" before his incarnation. Farel could not satisfy him. He brought about an interview with Calvin, of which the latter gives us an account. Servetus, proud as he was, humbly asked his pardon. Calvin protested that be had never pursued any personal quarrel against him. "Sixteen years ago," he said, "I spared no pains at Paris to gain you to our Lord. You then shunned the light. I did not cease to exhort you by letters, but all in vain. You have heaped upon me I know not how much fury rather than anger. But as to the rest, I pass by what concerns myself. Think rather of crying for mercy to God whom you have blasphemed."  This address had no more effect than the exhortation of Farel, and Calvin left the room in obedience, as he says, to St. Paul’s order (Tit. 3:10, 11), to withdraw from a self-condemned heretic. Servetus appeared as mild and humble as he had been bold and arrogant, but did not change his conviction.

At eleven o’clock on the 27th of October, Servetus was led from the prison to the gates of the City Hall, to hear the sentence read from the balcony by the Lord Syndic Darlod. When he heard the last words, he fell on his knees and exclaimed: "The sword! in mercy!  and not fire!  Or I may lose my soul in despair."  He protested that if he had sinned, it was through ignorance. Farel raised him up and said: "Confess thy crime, and God will have mercy on your soul."  Servetus replied:, I am not guilty; I have not merited death."  Then he smote his breast, invoked God for pardon, confessed Christ as his Saviour, and besought God to pardon his accusers.

On the short journey to the place of execution, Farel again attempted to obtain a confession, but Servetus was silent. He showed the courage and consistency of a martyr in these last awful moments.

Champel is a little bill south of Geneva with a fine view on one of the loveliest paradises of nature.  There was prepared a funeral pile hidden in part by the autumnal leaves of the oak trees. The Lord Lieutenant and the herald on horseback, both arrayed in the insignia of their office, arrive with the doomed man and the old pastor, followed by a small procession of spectators. Farel invites Servetus to solicit the prayers of the people and to unite his prayers with theirs. Servetus obeys in silence. The executioner fastens him by iron chains to the stake amidst the fagots, puts a crown of leaves covered with sulphur on his head, and binds his book by his side. The sight of the flaming torch extorts from him a piercing shriek of "misericordias" in his native tongue. The spectators fall back with a shudder. The flames soon reach him and consume his mortal frame in the forty-fourth year of his fitful life. In the last moment he is heard to pray, in smoke and agony, with a loud voice: "Jesus Christ, thou Son of the eternal God, have mercy upon me!"

Quote
Farel walked beside the condemned man, and kept up a constant barrage of words, in complete insensitivity to what Servetus might be feeling. All he had in mind was to extort from the prisoner an acknowledgement [sic] of his theological error -- a shocking example of the soulless cure of souls. After some minutes of this, Servetus ceased making any reply and prayed quietly to himself. When they arrived at the place of execution, Farel announced to the watching crowd: 'Here you see what power Satan possesses when he has a man in his power. This man is a scholar of distinction, and he perhaps believed he was acting rightly. But now Satan possesses him completely, as he might possess you, should you fall into his traps.'

When the executioner began his work, Servetus whispered with trembling voice: 'Oh God, Oh God!' The thwarted Farel snapped at him: 'Have you nothing else to say?' This time Servetus replied to him: 'What else might I do, but speak of God!' Thereupon he was lifted onto the pyre and chained to the stake. A wreath strewn with sulfur was placed on his head. When the faggots were ignited, a piercing cry of horror broke from him. 'Mercy, mercy!' he cried. For more than half an hour the horrible agony continued, for the pyre had been made of half-green wood, which burned slowly. 'Jesus, Son of the eternal God, have mercy on me,' the tormented man cried from the midst of the flames ....

http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/8_ch16.htm

Like I said, I've read lots of horrible stuff, but this story always got to me.  Something about the poor guy going mad anticipating his fate, begging for the sword instead of fire to no avail, the Calvinists putting a wreath of sulfur on his head and half-green wood around his feet to prolong the torture (it took more than 30 minutes to actually kill him in this way) and the callous, self-righteous attitude of Calvin, Farel, et cetera.  I'm not pointing to this account as a reason to disprove Calvinism - it falls apart on its own easily enough without that - I'm just saying that this story is truly scarier than anything Hollywood has ever dreamed up for a Halloween movie marathon.  I stand by that.

And the Catholics -
Quote
JOOS VERBEECK, A. D. 1561

On the 7th of June 1561 the margrave of Antwerp went out with a large retinue, well armed with sticks and staves, and they apprehended Joos Verbeeck, a minister of the Word of God and of His church. On the 9th he was examined; he confessed his faith very freely, as also his ministry; of which the margrave and the lords made much sport. He was also very severely tortured; but God kept his lips in everything, so that he inculpated no one. Although he was treated so unmercifully that a rope broke in two on his body, and that in four days he had to go to the rack twice, and was once scourged till his blood flowed, he bore all patiently; this, however, he greatly lamented, namely, that they had broken, or lamed by torturing, his right hand, and thus disabled him from writing.

On the 20th day of the month he was brought into court, where the bailiff asked him whether he was rebaptized. He answered, "Ask me for my faith, which I confessed in prison before the lords and the margrave." The bailiff then asked him what he thought of infant baptism. He said, "I confessed that it is not of God, but a human institution." The bailiff asked again whether he was rebaptized, and said, "Say yes or no; for I know you will not lie; therefore, tell me the truth." He said, "I was baptized upon my faith, as Christ teaches." Matt. 28, Mark 16.

Page 652

Having confessed his faith, baptism and doctrine, he could not well say much more. The lords concluded his sentence, he, in the meantime saying to the people, "Dear citizens, I have lived here eleven years, and no one can complain of me, since I have never wronged any one, and my life and doctrine agree with the Word of God.""That is true," exclaimed -a brother: upon hearing which, the thief catchers arose and searched for his brother; but did not find him.

Joos said, "Oh, that I might publicly defend myself against the priests who came to me in prison; as Paul could do before Agrippa; but we are forbidden to speak." Acts 26:2.

Coming out of the court, he said, "He that delivered Daniel out of the den of lions, will also preserve me; for what I suffer is for the name of the Lord, and not for evil-doing.", "That is true," cried a brother; and others cried, "Fight valiantly, dear brother." Joos boldly and cheerfully said, "Dear citizens, thus must all the children of God suffer; this way was trod by the saints of God, the prophets, and so many pious men."

When he approached the little house, yea, stood before the door of the but in which he was to offer up his burnt sacrifice, he cast his eyes up to heaven, saying, "O holy Father, assist Thy servant in this extremity." The executioner's servant wanted to thrust a gag into his mouth, to prevent him from speaking; but he did nevertheless not keep silence, for he was heard to exclaim, "O Lord, Thou Son of David, have compassion upon me."

The executioner performed his task, trembling with fear. When the fire was kindled, Joos cried, "O heavenly Father, into Thy hands I commit my spirit. O Lord of hosts, who didst separate me from my mother's womb, succor Thy servant in this last extremity, since I suffer for Thy name." Jeremiah 1:5; Gal. 1:15. Once more he cried, "O heavenly Father, into Thy hands I commend my spirit." And with this, he quietly offered up a fiery sacrifice, for an example and pattern to us all.
http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/martyrs092.htm - Source

I could post plenty more.....  And the Catholics even went more gruesome, such as the breaking wheel, tongue screws, the rack, glowing rods, and many other nice devices to.... show love to their enemies.

I'm not a cheerleader for Calvin either.... But the Catholics actions were horrible.

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« Reply #72 on: November 02, 2013, 10:08:44 PM »

Some of you people don't get it.

There is no such thing as going back to an "earlier Christianity." When people try to do it, they just mess everything up.

This is exactly why tradition is important. Tradition always lives in the present. Trying to reverse the flow of tradition can be just as disastrous and possibly more stupid than reckless innovation.

Nafpliotis understood this.

Exactly what my point was.
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« Reply #73 on: November 02, 2013, 10:30:50 PM »

Some of you people don't get it.

There is no such thing as going back to an "earlier Christianity." When people try to do it, they just mess everything up.

This is exactly why tradition is important. Tradition always lives in the present. Trying to reverse the flow of tradition can be just as disastrous and possibly more stupid than reckless innovation.

Nafpliotis understood this.

Exactly what my point was.

But what happens when the tradition that people thinks existed in earlier Christianity didn't really exist.... And that their traditional church, was nothing like that of the earliest Christians?  What if they import their traditions based on innovations that came up in later years, but since they did them for so many years, they hold them as tradition?
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« Reply #74 on: November 03, 2013, 02:25:21 PM »

I'm not a cheerleader for Calvin either.... But the Catholics actions were horrible.

If you switch the positions of the highlighted words in your last sentence, I can concur. In fact, an RC Inquisition is what our pal Servetus was fleeing from when the poor guy landed in Psycho Village (aka Geneva). The only positive thing to say about Torquemada & co. is that they inspired a hilarious Mel Brooks number.

But what happens when the tradition that people thinks existed in earlier Christianity didn't really exist.... And that their traditional church, was nothing like that of the earliest Christians?  What if they import their traditions based on innovations that came up in later years, but since they did them for so many years, they hold them as tradition?

And this is your assessment of Orthodoxy?

You are right.  It proved who followed the scriptures, and who did not, and the disaster was the Catholic church.

The Protestants were no closer to the Church which produced the Scriptures than the Latins.

God told us to "Love our enemies".   The RC church showed their love in strange ways...Also to the Anabaptists

Fair point and on the whole, my assessment of the Anabaptists is a charitable one.  But let's not forget that not every Anabaptist was a follower of Menno Simons.

John of Leiden (w/ his 16 wives), the Zwaardgeesten, and the other ultra-violent millennialist Anabaptists were a pretty scary bunch, so much so Martin Luther authorized his guys to cooperate with Catholic forces in their extermination.

I think it's safe to say, as D.M. Bennett did, that there's enough blame to go around in post-Reformation Western Europe:

Quote
Catholics have persecuted Protestants: Protestants have pursued Catholics: Lutherans have hunted Anabaptists; Episcopalians have burned Puritans ; Puritans have hanged Quakers; Calvinists have tortured Unitarians, and all have united in persecuting the heroic Infidels who have refused to believe in any of the multifarious and conflicting creeds. (Bennett RM.  The champions of the church: their crimes and persecutions. D.M. Bennett, 1878, p. 832)

P.S. - Is it wrong that I always pictured John of Leiden looking like John Lydon?

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« Reply #75 on: November 03, 2013, 02:37:29 PM »

P.S. - Is it wrong that I always pictured John of Leiden looking like John Lydon?

Yes. It hurts my feelings as a citizen of Leiden. It's as if we're obscure and irrelevant that you confuse the name of our most glorious city with that of a musician police
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« Reply #76 on: November 03, 2013, 02:41:34 PM »

P.S. - Is it wrong that I always pictured John of Leiden looking like John Lydon?

Yes. It hurts my feelings as a citizen of Leiden. It's as if we're obscure and irrelevant that you confuse us with the name of a musician police

My apologies!  If it's any comfort to you, since I'm from New Jersey, you can picture me looking like this:

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« Reply #77 on: November 03, 2013, 02:43:42 PM »

Ah, okay. I feel a lot better now.
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« Reply #78 on: November 03, 2013, 02:49:20 PM »

Some of you people don't get it.

There is no such thing as going back to an "earlier Christianity." When people try to do it, they just mess everything up.

This is exactly why tradition is important. Tradition always lives in the present. Trying to reverse the flow of tradition can be just as disastrous and possibly more stupid than reckless innovation.

Nafpliotis understood this.

Exactly what my point was.

But what happens when the tradition that people thinks existed in earlier Christianity didn't really exist.... And that their traditional church, was nothing like that of the earliest Christians?  What if they import their traditions based on innovations that came up in later years, but since they did them for so many years, they hold them as tradition?
Doesn't this assume that later "innovations" were wrong?

I don't know about you, but I don't want to join a church that is a museum. Which church represents the Gospel best?
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« Reply #79 on: November 03, 2013, 06:26:03 PM »

Some of you people don't get it.

There is no such thing as going back to an "earlier Christianity." When people try to do it, they just mess everything up.

This is exactly why tradition is important. Tradition always lives in the present. Trying to reverse the flow of tradition can be just as disastrous and possibly more stupid than reckless innovation.

Nafpliotis understood this.

Exactly what my point was.

But what happens when the tradition that people thinks existed in earlier Christianity didn't really exist.... And that their traditional church, was nothing like that of the earliest Christians?  What if they import their traditions based on innovations that came up in later years, but since they did them for so many years, they hold them as tradition?
That is why we have Faith that what Christ said was true, that the gates of hell would never prevail and He would be with us to the end of the age.

It's nice that the historical record backs that up, but that is just icing  on the cake.  The Protestants aren't so lucky-their deviation from the original recipe and use of stale ingredients made a flop in less than half a millenium.

Thinking that Luther and Calvin's innovations could last centuries while denying Christ and the Apostles the ability to preserve early Christianity for a century...that's just crazy talk.
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« Reply #80 on: November 03, 2013, 06:26:03 PM »

It's the feast of St. John Kochurov the Proto-Neo-Hieromartyr

on the middle left is the saint founding Holy Trinity Cathedral of Chicago.
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« Reply #81 on: November 03, 2013, 09:06:30 PM »

Some of you people don't get it.

There is no such thing as going back to an "earlier Christianity." When people try to do it, they just mess everything up.

This is exactly why tradition is important. Tradition always lives in the present. Trying to reverse the flow of tradition can be just as disastrous and possibly more stupid than reckless innovation.

Nafpliotis understood this.

Exactly what my point was.

But what happens when the tradition that people thinks existed in earlier Christianity didn't really exist.... And that their traditional church, was nothing like that of the earliest Christians?  What if they import their traditions based on innovations that came up in later years, but since they did them for so many years, they hold them as tradition?

The Church is the Body of Christ and Christ is not dead.
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« Reply #82 on: November 03, 2013, 09:11:36 PM »

I like Halloween better. Although I truly admire Martin Luther particularly as a person.

The Reformation itself... not so much. One of the biggest disasters in human history.
You are right.  It proved who followed the scriptures, and who did not, and the disaster was the Catholic church.

God told us to "Love our enemies".   The RC church showed their love in strange ways.


Also to the Anabaptists
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN6nJV_mxU4


No. It showed how making up your religion from your mind and not from what God inspires can cause war, violence, iconoclasm, poverty, totalitarianism, and sectarianism.
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« Reply #83 on: November 03, 2013, 10:43:27 PM »

What was going on in "Holy Russia" at roughly the time of the Reformation?  Oh yeah, Ivan IV . .  don't some people want him canonized?  (I'll leave off his moniker lest I be accused of not really knowing what Ива́н Гро́зный​ means).

Ivan the Awesome.

He was pretty awesome, but then he descended into paranoia and possible insanity. If only there had been more attention paid to mental health at the time.
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« Reply #84 on: November 05, 2013, 06:48:01 PM »

Some of you people don't get it.

There is no such thing as going back to an "earlier Christianity." When people try to do it, they just mess everything up.

This is exactly why tradition is important. Tradition always lives in the present. Trying to reverse the flow of tradition can be just as disastrous and possibly more stupid than reckless innovation.

Nafpliotis understood this.

Exactly what my point was.

But what happens when the tradition that people thinks existed in earlier Christianity didn't really exist.... And that their traditional church, was nothing like that of the earliest Christians?  What if they import their traditions based on innovations that came up in later years, but since they did them for so many years, they hold them as tradition?
That is why we have Faith that what Christ said was true, that the gates of hell would never prevail and He would be with us to the end of the age.

It's nice that the historical record backs that up, but that is just icing  on the cake.  The Protestants aren't so lucky-their deviation from the original recipe and use of stale ingredients made a flop in less than half a millenium.

Thinking that Luther and Calvin's innovations could last centuries while denying Christ and the Apostles the ability to preserve early Christianity for a century...that's just crazy talk.

It is an error though to assume that the only church that existed was the Catholic/Orthodox church up till the G. Schism.   Also that the only churches after was the protestant.   There were other Christians... Some who practiced the Sabbath day... Some who didn't approve of the 7 ecumenical council...  Some who kept traditions foreign to EO tradition...

Some who even didn't have the murderer of hundreds of thousands of people call to head the first council (Nicea).

Of course, the Catholic church hates these groups, and persecuted them.... Today they remain as well

Even going from the Great Schism on, you can track the Alibegenses to the Waldenses who joined in with the Anabaptist -> Amish/Hutterites/Mennonites with proving records. 

Before that is a LONG post that I can't get to right now.

When we consider that no church "prevailed" against it, there are variables in that.
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« Reply #85 on: November 05, 2013, 06:53:12 PM »

I like Halloween better. Although I truly admire Martin Luther particularly as a person.

The Reformation itself... not so much. One of the biggest disasters in human history.
You are right.  It proved who followed the scriptures, and who did not, and the disaster was the Catholic church.

God told us to "Love our enemies".   The RC church showed their love in strange ways.


Also to the Anabaptists
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN6nJV_mxU4


No. It showed how making up your religion from your mind and not from what God inspires can cause war, violence, iconoclasm, poverty, totalitarianism, and sectarianism.

Interesting.  Because Icons didn't exist with the earliest Christians....   They made them up.

The inquisition was butchering and murder and filled with violence....   

Iconoclasm was met with iconodules, who killed iconoclasts because they wanted their idols...

Poverty was encouraged by the earliest Christians, including Polycarp (or St. Polycarp)...

Totalitarianism would exist from emporers and kings, such as Constantine who butchered hundreds of thousands, (including his own wife and son) and yet remains a saint, or Popes who commanded butchery.

Sectarianism was part of Christianity since the beginning unfortunately.
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« Reply #86 on: November 05, 2013, 06:56:05 PM »

I like Halloween better. Although I truly admire Martin Luther particularly as a person.

The Reformation itself... not so much. One of the biggest disasters in human history.
You are right.  It proved who followed the scriptures, and who did not, and the disaster was the Catholic church.

God told us to "Love our enemies".   The RC church showed their love in strange ways.


Also to the Anabaptists
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN6nJV_mxU4


No. It showed how making up your religion from your mind and not from what God inspires can cause war, violence, iconoclasm, poverty, totalitarianism, and sectarianism.

Interesting.  Because Icons didn't exist with the earliest Christians....   They made them up.

The inquisition was butchering and murder and filled with violence....   

Iconoclasm was met with iconodules, who killed iconoclasts because they wanted their idols...

Poverty was encouraged by the earliest Christians, including Polycarp (or St. Polycarp)...

Totalitarianism would exist from emporers and kings, such as Constantine who butchered hundreds of thousands, (including his own wife and son) and yet remains a saint, or Popes who commanded butchery.

Sectarianism was part of Christianity since the beginning unfortunately.

Aren't you supposed to be Orthodox? You know, the Church that has an entire Sunday of Great Lent called the Triumph of Orthodoxy devoted to the Council which restored the use of icons?
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« Reply #87 on: November 05, 2013, 06:59:10 PM »

I like Halloween better. Although I truly admire Martin Luther particularly as a person.

The Reformation itself... not so much. One of the biggest disasters in human history.
You are right.  It proved who followed the scriptures, and who did not, and the disaster was the Catholic church.

God told us to "Love our enemies".   The RC church showed their love in strange ways.


Also to the Anabaptists
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN6nJV_mxU4


No. It showed how making up your religion from your mind and not from what God inspires can cause war, violence, iconoclasm, poverty, totalitarianism, and sectarianism.

Interesting.  Because Icons didn't exist with the earliest Christians....   They made them up.

The inquisition was butchering and murder and filled with violence....   

Iconoclasm was met with iconodules, who killed iconoclasts because they wanted their idols...

Poverty was encouraged by the earliest Christians, including Polycarp (or St. Polycarp)...

Totalitarianism would exist from emporers and kings, such as Constantine who butchered hundreds of thousands, (including his own wife and son) and yet remains a saint, or Popes who commanded butchery.

Sectarianism was part of Christianity since the beginning unfortunately.

Aren't you supposed to be Orthodox? You know, the Church that has an entire Sunday of Great Lent called the Triumph of Orthodoxy devoted to the Council which restored the use of icons?

No. You've missed a big story arch around here...
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augustin717
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« Reply #88 on: November 05, 2013, 07:00:24 PM »

St Martin got a thing or two right. Chiefly his apophtegm about wine and sex and fools.
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« Reply #89 on: November 05, 2013, 07:00:55 PM »

Some of you people don't get it.

There is no such thing as going back to an "earlier Christianity." When people try to do it, they just mess everything up.

This is exactly why tradition is important. Tradition always lives in the present. Trying to reverse the flow of tradition can be just as disastrous and possibly more stupid than reckless innovation.

Nafpliotis understood this.

Exactly what my point was.

But what happens when the tradition that people thinks existed in earlier Christianity didn't really exist.... And that their traditional church, was nothing like that of the earliest Christians?  What if they import their traditions based on innovations that came up in later years, but since they did them for so many years, they hold them as tradition?
Doesn't this assume that later "innovations" were wrong?

I don't know about you, but I don't want to join a church that is a museum. Which church represents the Gospel best?

For me it would be the church that actually follows the gospel literally, and does not let traditions circumvent the commands of Christ.  

The closest I can find that literally follows the scriptures and commands of Christ directly are traditional Anabaptists who keep the Sabbath.   Not perfect, but very close...   From the writings of the earliest Christians, I also have heavy respect for the Waldenses and how they knew of God.   I also have respect for the EO monastic lifestyle, while disagreeing with aspects of some of the religious practice, they seem to grip on to the fundamentals of the prayer without ceasing, no concern of wordly possessions, and communal living (as the Hutterites).

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