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Author Topic: Antiochians are at it again.  (Read 7271 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2013, 08:00:18 AM »

I love when priests post.  It is like getting a peak into a window and realizing that they are actual real people who struggle with their bosses and customers/parishoners just like anyone else.  FatherGiryus, thank you for your candor and insight.  I really do appreciate it and it makes me try to take my own priest less for granted knowing all the dynamics that are pulling on him.
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« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2013, 08:15:45 AM »

With respect to Father G' s comments, I will add that my dad would tell young men entering the seminary to remember that that Church had plenty of good theologians, but good pastors were always in short supply. He must have done something right as during his six decade priesthood, he inspired fourteen vocations to the priesthood including one who is now a Bishop and numerous deacons. A good parish priest, he would say, was a true spiritual father and the unwillingness of so many clergy to fulfill the role of a good shepherd always burdened him.  (In some jurisdictions the pastor is the book keeper, but in America I don't think that is the norm, certainly not in ACROD or the UOC.)
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« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2013, 02:40:03 PM »

Just so you know, converts bring their own ethnic hang-ups as well.  Try getting a Roman Catholic convert and Evangelical Calvinist convert in the same parish and watch the ethnic sparks fly!

One of the major problems we have here in the US is not acknowledging that there are just as big of cultural jumps between a Louisianan and a New Yorker as there are between an 'American' and a Greek.  Yet, we repeatedly see attempts to create 'meta-dioceses' encompassing incompatible American groups.

Out here on the 'Left Coast,' the phrase 'East Coast Orthodoxy' is a pejorative.  It is worse than the g-word and the n-word put together!



lol, are you sure you are not my priest? We discussed this in catechumen class yesterday.  People wanted to know why the bishops don't just get together and force everyone to just be an American Orthodox Church and ditch their ethnic tendencies.  Our parish is very convert, so not many people understand the importance that those who are ethnic place on that aspect of the church.  Our priest wisely counseled that with such things, it is better for them to organically work themselves out through time rather than forcing opposites together and causing strife.
g-word, Father?

I once got into an argument who suggested Diocesan boundaries on the US map, in utter disregard of the demographics.  "Most people aren't Orthodox anyways," was the "reasoning."  As if the Orthodox don't live in those societies, let alone the issue of mission.  As for your example, New York an Louisiana are further apart than Greece and Sweden, both of which are in the European Union-who wants to argue that Greeks are just like Swedes?
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« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2013, 09:25:38 PM »

Yes, the g-word.  Not going to write it, lest I get the 'green dot.'   Wink

The EU is an economic arrangement, not unlike the US in many respects.  However, I am not suggesting that the EU is working or workable.

I certainly would not try to run a Swedish Orthodox community with Greek bishops, just as I think the reverse would be equally disastrous.



g-word, Father?

I once got into an argument who suggested Diocesan boundaries on the US map, in utter disregard of the demographics.  "Most people aren't Orthodox anyways," was the "reasoning."  As if the Orthodox don't live in those societies, let alone the issue of mission.  As for your example, New York an Louisiana are further apart than Greece and Sweden, both of which are in the European Union-who wants to argue that Greeks are just like Swedes?
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« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2013, 09:44:03 PM »

Well, PK, your father and I have watched more than a few good priests self-immolate over these conflicts.

America is a conflicted land in Church terms.  We require priests to get graduate degrees, but then pay them and treat them like high-school grads.  We demand that they offer professional-level counseling, but don't actually train them to do it.  Bishops send priests to seminaries, but the bishops don't agree with half the curriculum the priests receive.  Then, they wonder why they are fighting with new clergy all the time... 

It is hard to shepherd when you are not the shepherd... the bishop is the real shepherd, and we priests are just sheep dogs.  You cannot shepherd without authority, and a priest really does not have such authority either in the canons or the very ordination prayers.  We are 'sacramental machines,' and whatever shepherding we do is purely 'charismatic' in the sense that God gives it rather than it being part of the job description.  That being said, it would be better if there were more priests who have that gift.  Most of us know how to bully, but only a few can really shepherd.  I know that I am not a shepherd, and so I don't try.  I just serve and try to follow orders and hope I don't mess anyone up, because I will have to answer for that now and later.

If I last another 10 years (odds are against me based on what has happened to my class over the last decade), God may give me that gift, but then again he may not.  I think it is a gift that requires experience, of which I have only a little.


With respect to Father G' s comments, I will add that my dad would tell young men entering the seminary to remember that that Church had plenty of good theologians, but good pastors were always in short supply. He must have done something right as during his six decade priesthood, he inspired fourteen vocations to the priesthood including one who is now a Bishop and numerous deacons. A good parish priest, he would say, was a true spiritual father and the unwillingness of so many clergy to fulfill the role of a good shepherd always burdened him.  (In some jurisdictions the pastor is the book keeper, but in America I don't think that is the norm, certainly not in ACROD or the UOC.)
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« Reply #50 on: October 29, 2013, 06:32:47 PM »

I'm confused why the Antiochian Patriarchate is so upset when the official title of the Jerusalem Patriarch is "His Most Godly Beatitude, the Patriarch of the Holy City of Jerusalem and all Palestine, Syria, Arabia, beyond the Jordan River, Cana of Galilee, and Holy Zion."  

I'm perplexed.

Antioch is Patriarch of "all the East," but not really, when Moscow and the EP encroach all over the East.  

Lord, have mercy.
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« Reply #51 on: October 30, 2013, 12:53:14 AM »

g-word, Father?

I once got into an argument who suggested Diocesan boundaries on the US map, in utter disregard of the demographics.  "Most people aren't Orthodox anyways," was the "reasoning."  As if the Orthodox don't live in those societies, let alone the issue of mission.  As for your example, New York an Louisiana are further apart than Greece and Sweden, both of which are in the European Union-who wants to argue that Greeks are just like Swedes?
G Word can be "God", like using God's name in vain, or it could be "gay".

Although Fr. Gyrius mentioned a possible conflict with them, I think Evangelical and Roman Catholic converts should be able to get along in a parish and put their predispositions behind themselves, since they are converts after all.

It is more difficult, but I also think northerners and southerners who are Orthodox should be able to get along. They have alot more in common, being Orthodox, and fortunately the church is not supposed to be about politics. However, I can imagine how problems could arise.
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« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2013, 10:13:01 AM »

Quote
I think Evangelical and Roman Catholic converts should be able to get along in a parish and put their predispositions behind themselves, since they are converts after all
They do. I have no idea where this assumption that they dont comes from.

Frankly, if you're Orthodox and your pants are all in a twist because you're Russian and the only church near you is Greek and you make a big fuss over it, you have much bigger problems than not getting Borscht during coffee hour, or not hearing Russian in the Liturgy.

As for the New Yorker and the person from Louisiana, there are plenty of examples to disprove this. The issue is hyper racial nonsense in our parishes.

Orthodoxy is not an ethnic museum. If you think that the Church should be protecting your ethnic customs, go back to Catechesis.

For the whole Jerusalem thing, I'll take the Jerusalem thing seriously when we collectively get our acts together in the diaspora. I dont want to hear ANYTHING about intrusions into territories when Holy Assumption (OCA), St George's (Antioch), St. Nicholas (Greek) Cathedrals are all within 5 miles of each other in the same city (pittsburgh in this example).

Frankly, if its that big of a deal, let Jerusalem have Qatar. We're all one Church afterall, at least that is what we tell everyone.

PP
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« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2013, 10:39:03 AM »

Quote
I think Evangelical and Roman Catholic converts should be able to get along in a parish and put their predispositions behind themselves, since they are converts after all
They do. I have no idea where this assumption that they dont comes from.

Frankly, if you're Orthodox and your pants are all in a twist because you're Russian and the only church near you is Greek and you make a big fuss over it, you have much bigger problems than not getting Borscht during coffee hour, or not hearing Russian in the Liturgy.

As for the New Yorker and the person from Louisiana, there are plenty of examples to disprove this. The issue is hyper racial nonsense in our parishes.

Orthodoxy is not an ethnic museum. If you think that the Church should be protecting your ethnic customs, go back to Catechesis.

For the whole Jerusalem thing, I'll take the Jerusalem thing seriously when we collectively get our acts together in the diaspora. I dont want to hear ANYTHING about intrusions into territories when Holy Assumption (OCA), St George's (Antioch), St. Nicholas (Greek) Cathedrals are all within 5 miles of each other in the same city (pittsburgh in this example).

Frankly, if its that big of a deal, let Jerusalem have Qatar. We're all one Church afterall, at least that is what we tell everyone.

PP
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« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2013, 01:30:58 PM »

Frankly, if you're Orthodox and your pants are all in a twist because you're Russian and the only church near you is Greek and you make a big fuss over it, you have much bigger problems than not getting Borscht during coffee hour, or not hearing Russian in the Liturgy.

Depends on the nature of the fuss.  I'm not going to criticise immigrants for craving some familiarity in a foreign land. 

Quote
Orthodoxy is not an ethnic museum. If you think that the Church should be protecting your ethnic customs, go back to Catechesis.

True, as far as it goes.  But it sets up a dichotomy between "Church" and "community" that even the Church does not make so easily.  IOW, it's a bit more complicated than "go back to Catechesis". 

Quote
For the whole Jerusalem thing, I'll take the Jerusalem thing seriously when we collectively get our acts together in the diaspora. I dont want to hear ANYTHING about intrusions into territories when Holy Assumption (OCA), St George's (Antioch), St. Nicholas (Greek) Cathedrals are all within 5 miles of each other in the same city (pittsburgh in this example).

Frankly, if its that big of a deal, let Jerusalem have Qatar. We're all one Church afterall, at least that is what we tell everyone.

Wrongs here do not justify wrongs elsewhere.  Ignoring the canons is a part of what created the diaspora mess, and allowing that to infect "the homeland" isn't going to achieve anything of value. 
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« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2013, 02:12:28 PM »

Quote
Wrongs here do not justify wrongs elsewhere.  Ignoring the canons is a part of what created the diaspora mess, and allowing that to infect "the homeland" isn't going to achieve anything of value
I understand your point. What I was getting at is there is a FAR bigger problem in the diaspora than in QUatar and worrying about it is a huge waste of energy and resources.

PP
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« Reply #56 on: October 31, 2013, 02:20:07 PM »

I understand your point. What I was getting at is there is a FAR bigger problem in the diaspora than in QUatar and worrying about it is a huge waste of energy and resources.

It's a matter of perspective.  What's the problem in the diaspora?  If you live in the diaspora, there are many.  But if you're "back home" and have a chance to own a share of the cash cow abroad, why would you care about canonical propriety there?  But no one wants those chickens to come home to roost.  The problems in one's own backyard are always the most pressing, especially when someone else's backyard is tithing to you. 
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« Reply #57 on: October 31, 2013, 02:56:46 PM »

Frankly, if you're Orthodox and your pants are all in a twist because you're Russian and the only church near you is Greek and you make a big fuss over it, you have much bigger problems than not getting Borscht during coffee hour, or not hearing Russian in the Liturgy.

Depends on the nature of the fuss.  I'm not going to criticise immigrants for craving some familiarity in a foreign land.  

Quote
Orthodoxy is not an ethnic museum. If you think that the Church should be protecting your ethnic customs, go back to Catechesis.

True, as far as it goes.  But it sets up a dichotomy between "Church" and "community" that even the Church does not make so easily.  IOW, it's a bit more complicated than "go back to Catechesis".  

Quote
For the whole Jerusalem thing, I'll take the Jerusalem thing seriously when we collectively get our acts together in the diaspora. I dont want to hear ANYTHING about intrusions into territories when Holy Assumption (OCA), St George's (Antioch), St. Nicholas (Greek) Cathedrals are all within 5 miles of each other in the same city (pittsburgh in this example).

Frankly, if its that big of a deal, let Jerusalem have Qatar. We're all one Church afterall, at least that is what we tell everyone.

Wrongs here do not justify wrongs elsewhere.  Ignoring the canons is a part of what created the diaspora mess, and allowing that to infect "the homeland" isn't going to achieve anything of value.  

Thank you Mor, as once again, you expressed what I was trying to articulate and post - but I actually finished reading the thread first for once! (Shoot first, read second is a common fault online for most!)

Of course the Church is not an ethnic museum, but one of the distinguishing characteristics of Orthodoxy which sets it apart from Roman Catholicism is our historical organization by regional or national Churches. You can't dismiss the interrelationship between culture and faith within the various Orthodox communities by making a philosophical point or an abstraction.

Balance is a quality Orthodoxy always is seeking to achieve. Usually it fails to completely achieve this, but for the most part we come rather close. That concept of maintaining a healthy balance should apply to the role of culture in a parish. If culture is used as a barrier to keep people away from the faith, the balance is not present. Likewise, if the faith is used as a sword to shut out culture in a parish where culture is part and parcel of the faith community's 'raison d'etre' - that is equally out of balance.

In a parish comprised of Americans of many diverse cultures, there is naturally less of a culture shock. But to imply that the spiritual worth of a more homogeneous parish is somehow diminished simply because of the human affinity to seek comfort in that which is familiar is unfair and, for the most part, inaccurate.

I think back on the life of my parish, when I was a child the immigrant founders' generation was dying off. Their children and grandchildren (my parent's generation) were respectful of the old ways but starting to 'break the mold.' Today we have no, and I mean no, Slavonic in our Liturgy or other services (save for an occasional Vicnaja Pamjat or Mnohaja Lit, Christos Voskrese and the like), we no longer bring out the tsymbaly or violins, dance the old dances and sing the old songs, toast the old heroes until the sun rises again and listen to the old stories of unrequited love or tremendous valor. Coffee hour consists of day old bagels and Sam's Club pastries with weak coffee. I'm not sure things are 'better' than they were or 'worse'. They are - to be sure - different.

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« Reply #58 on: October 31, 2013, 03:02:21 PM »

Coffee hour consists of day old bagels and Sam's Club pastries with weak coffee. I'm not sure things are 'better' than they were or 'worse'. They are - to be sure - different.

If your coffee hour involves day old bagels and weak coffee, things have definitely gotten worse. 
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« Reply #59 on: October 31, 2013, 03:08:00 PM »

Coffee hour consists of day old bagels and Sam's Club pastries with weak coffee. I'm not sure things are 'better' than they were or 'worse'. They are - to be sure - different.

If your coffee hour involves day old bagels and weak coffee, things have definitely gotten worse. 

But the bagels - they're FREE! We have to be true to our Rusyn roots. And to add insult to injury, the guy who makes the coffee usually, he goes to Dunkin Donuts and stands around with his own coffee. We are a cantankerous bunch for sure....
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« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2013, 03:17:57 PM »

Coffee hour consists of day old bagels and Sam's Club pastries with weak coffee. I'm not sure things are 'better' than they were or 'worse'. They are - to be sure - different.

If your coffee hour involves day old bagels and weak coffee, things have definitely gotten worse. 
You perfectly described our coffee hour most Sundays!

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« Reply #61 on: October 31, 2013, 03:22:46 PM »

Coffee hour consists of day old bagels and Sam's Club pastries with weak coffee. I'm not sure things are 'better' than they were or 'worse'. They are - to be sure - different.

If your coffee hour involves day old bagels and weak coffee, things have definitely gotten worse. 
You perfectly described our coffee hour most Sundays!

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Crossing cultural barriers! A good thing indeed....
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« Reply #62 on: October 31, 2013, 03:29:25 PM »

Man I feel spoiled now; in our church we have someone volunteer to cook or cater food every week. Grin
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« Reply #63 on: October 31, 2013, 03:54:50 PM »

I'm confused why the Antiochian Patriarchate is so upset when the official title of the Jerusalem Patriarch is "His Most Godly Beatitude, the Patriarch of the Holy City of Jerusalem and all Palestine, Syria, Arabia, beyond the Jordan River, Cana of Galilee, and Holy Zion."  

I'm perplexed.
It's the comma: it's "Arabia beyond the Jordan River," i.e. Transjordan, or as we say "Jordan."  The Phanariots, still living in the Ottoman Empire but dreaming of the Empire of the Romans, mapped it (at least until recently), thus:


Antioch is Patriarch of "all the East," but not really, when Moscow and the EP encroach all over the East.
Moscow helped Antioch become again the master of his own house.  As for the Phanar, it has taken a liking to encroaching everywhere, which is how the Chambessy Accords ran away from its control.
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« Reply #64 on: October 31, 2013, 04:49:42 PM »

Thanks for the maps.  It makes a little more sense.
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« Reply #65 on: October 31, 2013, 08:12:07 PM »

Coffee hour consists of day old bagels and Sam's Club pastries with weak coffee. I'm not sure things are 'better' than they were or 'worse'. They are - to be sure - different.

If your coffee hour involves day old bagels and weak coffee, things have definitely gotten worse. 

No wonder why so many are leaving the Church.
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« Reply #66 on: October 31, 2013, 08:18:29 PM »

If your coffee hour involves day old bagels and weak coffee, things have definitely gotten worse. 

No wonder why so many are leaving the Church.

This is a faithful saying: OO coffee hour > EO coffee hour
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« Reply #67 on: October 31, 2013, 10:34:24 PM »

My dad would often reminisce about his first years as a priest in the early 1940's. No coffee hour or stale bagels back then. But there was a bar in the basement hall and it operated as a "revenue stream" as we would say nowadays. However there was only one man they could agree upon to trust with the keys. One guess.... Church meetings were probably more lively I suppose.
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« Reply #68 on: November 01, 2013, 08:52:03 AM »

I understand your point. What I was getting at is there is a FAR bigger problem in the diaspora than in Qatar and worrying about it is a huge waste of energy and resources.

It's a matter of perspective.  What's the problem in the diaspora?  If you live in the diaspora, there are many.  But if you're "back home" and have a chance to own a share of the cash cow abroad, why would you care about canonical propriety there?  But no one wants those chickens to come home to roost.  The problems in one's own backyard are always the most pressing, especially when someone else's backyard is tithing to you. 
Tue enough. However the ones in power have the "say-so" in the Diaspora and back home as well (in this case, the Holy Synod of Antioch and The Patriarch). I find it very perplexing for such things to be ok in one instance, yet not ok in another...

I guess I just find the whole affair to be rather confusing.

PP

EDIT: Didn't Antioch appeal to the EP, who sided with Jerusalem?
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« Reply #69 on: November 01, 2013, 08:58:01 AM »

EDIT: Didn't Antioch appeal to the EP, who sided with Jerusalem?

What I've read, they did appeal to the EP to mediate but it always said "without resolution" or something to that effect. People talking about the subject imply that the EP did side with Jerusalem, whom the EP supposedly has great hold over.
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« Reply #70 on: November 01, 2013, 09:04:08 AM »

EDIT: Didn't Antioch appeal to the EP, who sided with Jerusalem?

What I've read, they did appeal to the EP to mediate but it always said "without resolution" or something to that effect. People talking about the subject imply that the EP did side with Jerusalem, whom the EP supposedly has great hold over.
My priest mentioned something about the EP getting involved, but I didn't know one way or another.

I still think Antioch is overreacting.

PP
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« Reply #71 on: November 01, 2013, 10:05:00 AM »

Sad, at one time issues of great theological significance might raise deep issues within and between local churches, or the throwing of stones between one party and another as someone in another thread typified it. Nowadays it more likely that territorial sensitivities, manoeuvres over precedent or the like will stir the passions.
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« Reply #72 on: November 01, 2013, 01:23:56 PM »

Even the new title is disrespectful, but well intentioned I am sure.  The report of the Holy Synod includes the following:

"The Synod Fathers discussed some issues of concern for the universal Orthodox Church. They stressed the need for continued coordination between all Orthodox Churches in order to promote the Orthodox presence in the world and for a living testimony of Christ for contemporary man. In this regard, the Fathers stressed the need for cooperation between the Orthodox Churches to show the unity of the Church of Christ in a more effective way, and to facilitate the meeting of the Great and Holy Orthodox Synod." 

These holy Hierarchs, many of whom have witnessed great suffering even to the point of martyrdom, are not lying when they write of their earnest desire for unity in the Church.  They even mention being a part of facilitating an upcoming "Great and Holy Orthodox Synod". 

The Patriarchate of Jerusalem was given two months simply to reply; if no response is given then communion ceases and participation in the general episcopal assemblies is suspended.  To simply ask for some kind of response in two months is hardly an overreaction.  Notice all they are asking for is real dialogue; the message is that if the Patriarch of Constantinople wants to facilitate curing abiding canonical anomalies then he and his supporters must prevent a fresh anomaly from taking root.
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« Reply #73 on: November 01, 2013, 01:30:05 PM »

The Patriarchate of Jerusalem was given two months simply to reply; if no response is given then communion ceases and participation in the general episcopal assemblies is suspended.  To simply ask for some kind of response in two months is hardly an overreaction.  Notice all they are asking for is real dialogue; the message is that if the Patriarch of Constantinople wants to facilitate curing abiding canonical anomalies then he and his supporters must prevent a fresh anomaly from taking root.

"Johny stole my toy so I hit Jimmy back".

Yeah, perfectly logical.
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« Reply #74 on: November 01, 2013, 02:08:56 PM »

No, more like Johny is riding his four-wheeler on my property, and he needs to knock it off!  Let him go and ride on his land!
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« Reply #75 on: November 01, 2013, 05:00:31 PM »

Sad, at one time issues of great theological significance might raise deep issues within and between local churches, or the throwing of stones between one party and another as someone in another thread typified it. Nowadays it more likely that territorial sensitivities, manoeuvres over precedent or the like will stir the passions.

Indeed!  

For the first 300 years after the time of Christ on Earth, Christians were persecuted.

We get our freedom and we fight amongst ourselves, debates over matters of our own theology.

Today,

a small parish in Qatar, another "territory" of less than marginal importance, threatens to cause a brake in Communion between two of the Ancient Patriarchates, both of which have far more serious problems with Moslem persecution;

we fight over whether dispersed people live in diaspora;

and the two most prominent "Heads" of the Holy Orthodox Churches fight over freak'n China and Japan, if I'm not mistaken?  Much as I support a strong coordinating ("coordinating," not jurisdictional or dictatorial) responsibility of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, I am at a complete loss to understand any legitimate claim by Patriarch Bartholomew over these two territories; give it up Your All Holiness, if this will bring peace between the Churches of Constantinople and Russia, and our Holy Orthodoxy;

But then there's still that pesky little, yet unresolved, matter of Estonia;

Moldova;

and the Church of the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia;" ha,

And the divisions of importance in Ukraine.
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« Reply #76 on: November 01, 2013, 05:12:37 PM »

Sad, at one time issues of great theological significance might raise deep issues within and between local churches, or the throwing of stones between one party and another as someone in another thread typified it. Nowadays it more likely that territorial sensitivities, manoeuvres over precedent or the like will stir the passions.

Indeed!  

For the first 300 years after the time of Christ on Earth, Christians were persecuted.

We get our freedom and we fight amongst ourselves, debates over matters of our own theology.

Today,

a small parish in Qatar, another "territory" of less than marginal importance, threatens to cause a brake in Communion between two of the Ancient Patriarchates, both of which have far more serious problems with Moslem persecution;

we fight over whether dispersed people live in diaspora;

and the two most prominent "Heads" of the Holy Orthodox Churches fight over freak'n China and Japan, if I'm not mistaken?  Much as I support a strong coordinating ("coordinating," not jurisdictional or dictatorial) responsibility of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, I am at a complete loss to understand any legitimate claim by Patriarch Bartholomew over these two territories; give it up Your All Holiness, if this will bring peace between the Churches of Constantinople and Russia, and our Holy Orthodoxy;

But then there's still that pesky little, yet unresolved, matter of Estonia;

Moldova;

and the Church of the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia;" ha,

And the divisions of importance in Ukraine.

At the risk of offending many here, this nonsense almost makes Rome's arguments in support of supremacy seem somewhat more understandable.

OK, OK

I DID SAY ALMOST....
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« Reply #77 on: November 01, 2013, 05:18:50 PM »

You're right, "almost," the situation in Reply No. 75 is the fruits of Orthodox Church governance, i.e. "Church Order," of today; "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."

Try explaining this stuff to, non-Orthodox, educated people.
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« Reply #78 on: November 05, 2013, 10:28:40 AM »

Sad, at one time issues of great theological significance might raise deep issues within and between local churches, or the throwing of stones between one party and another as someone in another thread typified it. Nowadays it more likely that territorial sensitivities, manoeuvres over precedent or the like will stir the passions.

Indeed!  

For the first 300 years after the time of Christ on Earth, Christians were persecuted.

We get our freedom and we fight amongst ourselves, debates over matters of our own theology.

Today,

a small parish in Qatar, another "territory" of less than marginal importance, threatens to cause a brake in Communion between two of the Ancient Patriarchates, both of which have far more serious problems with Moslem persecution;

we fight over whether dispersed people live in diaspora;

and the two most prominent "Heads" of the Holy Orthodox Churches fight over freak'n China and Japan, if I'm not mistaken?  Much as I support a strong coordinating ("coordinating," not jurisdictional or dictatorial) responsibility of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, I am at a complete loss to understand any legitimate claim by Patriarch Bartholomew over these two territories; give it up Your All Holiness, if this will bring peace between the Churches of Constantinople and Russia, and our Holy Orthodoxy;

But then there's still that pesky little, yet unresolved, matter of Estonia;

Moldova;

and the Church of the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia;" ha,

And the divisions of importance in Ukraine.
Wonderfully said.

PP
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
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« Reply #79 on: November 06, 2013, 01:23:33 PM »

You're right, "almost," the situation in Reply No. 75 is the fruits of Orthodox Church governance, i.e. "Church Order," of today; "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."

Try explaining this stuff to, non-Orthodox, educated people.

Good blog post yesterday from First Things on this subject and the Asian silly business.

'The Chambésy process is the worst form of Orthodox church government for the 21st century, except for all the others. The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople has the power to bring bishops together, but he cannot force them to accept an unwelcome edict. When disputes arise, they must be resolved honestly by brother bishops and their flocks, even if the solutions are slow to come.'
http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2013/11/eastern-orthodox-unity

By the way, the only process intellectualized in the first millenium to accelerate the process of solving these issues, was that of the Romans which of course led to the Great Schism, and as I said in #75 the behavior of our Church leaders today is almost enough to lend credence to Rome's approach. Both the approaches of the west AND the east seem to me however to have failed the Church and hampered the Great Commission thereby allowing the spread of additional heresies through Protestantism and apostasies as spread by Islam and Secularism.

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« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2013, 01:57:28 PM »

Both the approaches of the west AND the east seem to me however to have failed the Church

This. Even a cursory glance over western church history shows the papacy has never been this unchallenged source of authority and unity. The Western Schism, Council of Constance, Council of Florence vs Council of Basel, Old Catholic schism, SSPX, etc.

Both have failed, and using the other's failures in polemics is generally just dishonest no matter how tempting. It started to immediately happen in the comments of that article, even.
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« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2013, 08:23:49 PM »

You're right, "almost," the situation in Reply No. 75 is the fruits of Orthodox Church governance, i.e. "Church Order," of today; "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."

Try explaining this stuff to, non-Orthodox, educated people.

Good blog post yesterday from First Things on this subject and the Asian silly business.

'The Chambésy process is the worst form of Orthodox church government for the 21st century, except for all the others. The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople has the power to bring bishops together, but he cannot force them to accept an unwelcome edict. When disputes arise, they must be resolved honestly by brother bishops and their flocks, even if the solutions are slow to come.'
http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2013/11/eastern-orthodox-unity

By the way, the only process intellectualized in the first millenium to accelerate the process of solving these issues, was that of the Romans which of course led to the Great Schism, and as I said in #75 the behavior of our Church leaders today is almost enough to lend credence to Rome's approach. Both the approaches of the west AND the east seem to me however to have failed the Church and hampered the Great Commission thereby allowing the spread of additional heresies through Protestantism and apostasies as spread by Islam and Secularism.



Right my friend!  In the 50's and 60's, Fr. Schmemann had written about the de facto importance of the role of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.  Of course, this was before +Athenagoras told him to go to his "mother Church."  Well, the OCA did as they were instructed by the Ecumenical Patriarchate.  And the Ecumenical Patriarchate recognizes them as a legitimate jurisdiction (although not the autocephaly, which canonically would put every other jurisdiction in uncanonical status). 

But you are right on the "almost."  The Orthodox Church does not have "homosexual-friendly liturgies."  The Vatican does.  Our Patriarchates with the current system have more power to combat moral decline than the Vatican does.  Our Ecumenical Patriarch denounces homosexual marriage and the entire Church rejoices.  The last 5 popes have done the same, and one was murdered, another attempted, and still we have the Detroit RCC having "private homosexual masses."   
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« Reply #82 on: November 07, 2013, 01:37:54 AM »

Anyone ever thing we're all just overreacting?
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« Reply #83 on: November 07, 2013, 03:49:46 AM »

The Patriarchate of Jerusalem was given two months simply to reply; if no response is given then communion ceases and participation in the general episcopal assemblies is suspended.  To simply ask for some kind of response in two months is hardly an overreaction.  Notice all they are asking for is real dialogue; the message is that if the Patriarch of Constantinople wants to facilitate curing abiding canonical anomalies then he and his supporters must prevent a fresh anomaly from taking root.

"Johny stole my toy so I hit Jimmy back".

Yeah, perfectly logical.
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Antioch is merely holding Jerusalem to the standard the latter set with Romania earlier.
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« Reply #84 on: November 07, 2013, 03:51:22 AM »

Antioch is merely holding Jerusalem to the standard the latter set with Romania earlier.

Antioch did nothing to Jerusalem. They reacted against EAs that Jerusalem has no connection at all.
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« Reply #85 on: November 07, 2013, 04:34:28 AM »

Antioch did nothing to Jerusalem. They reacted against EAs that Jerusalem has no connection at all.

Here you're assuming that Jerusalem somehow isn't just an appendage of Constantinople.
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« Reply #86 on: November 07, 2013, 04:37:29 AM »

Antioch is merely holding Jerusalem to the standard the latter set with Romania earlier.

Antioch did nothing to Jerusalem. They reacted against EAs that Jerusalem has no connection at all.

The Patriarchate of Antioch gave the Patriarchate of Jerusalem 30 days for its Head, Patriarch Theophilos, to come to its see and rightly, address the matter of its having established an archdiocese on the territory of the Antiochian Patriarchate.

In the event of Jerusalem's failure to reconcile the matter of its presence upon Antiochian territory, it would direct its eparchies in the diaspora to suspend, or cease, their participation in the various Episcopal Assemblies.
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« Reply #87 on: November 07, 2013, 04:38:16 AM »

Antioch did nothing to Jerusalem. They reacted against EAs that Jerusalem has no connection at all.

Here you're assuming that Jerusalem somehow isn't just an appendage of Constantinople.

Which it is not.
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« Reply #88 on: November 07, 2013, 08:56:21 PM »

Antioch is merely holding Jerusalem to the standard the latter set with Romania earlier.

Antioch did nothing to Jerusalem. They reacted against EAs that Jerusalem has no connection at all.

I agree with Michal.  This is harming the whole rest of the Church on the basis of one small parish in Qatar.  Both sides should recognize that legitimately "Arabia beyond Jordan" does refer to the Arabian peninsula, but that Antioch has had care for such parishes "of the Orient" previously.  But really, the action is to suspend the EA participation because of the small parish in Qatar?  Nonsense.  Complete nonsense.  I have no problem with Antioch taking action, but this harms the whole Church. 
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« Reply #89 on: November 07, 2013, 09:22:04 PM »

It's aggressive, but I think that's why they're taking such action, attempting to get the attention of the Ecumenical Patriarch and the other Holy Orthodox Churches to take them seriously, and the cause of the Church of Antioch is absolutely well founded. I haven't read anything that can justify the Church of Jerusalem's actions, having the audacity to establish an archdiocese for a single small community in Qatar, the same church that was so disturbed by the Romanian Patriarchate's church on their territory, not that long ago.

When the former American Ambassador to Qatar approached the Church of Jerusalem about sending a priest to serve the fledgling community, they should have told him to go to Antioch.  Ambassador Theros is now in charge of some American-Qatari business association.  I'm sure there is money involved in this mess, establishing an archdiocese for a small parish community, on the territory of a sister Church.
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