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Author Topic: OCA going Western Rite  (Read 2743 times) Average Rating: 0
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2013, 10:56:20 PM »

I would be fine if OCA went Western Rite. If it went Anglican, it should be excommunicated.
I think the incident of Anglicans holding a prayer service in Syosset is enough grounds for heads to be rolling, if the bishop cares about the canons, because praying with heretics is a violation of the canon of the Council of Laodicea, and I guess that some other councils also say the same thing.

Not sure what you're talking about here. What Anglican prayer service? And if the Anglicans held it, how is that necessarily a violation of the canon? The canon is against Orthodox clergy praying with heretics, not heretics praying in Orthodox churches. That is another matter.
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« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2013, 12:27:11 AM »

It's not a gay conspiracy, but many authorities within the OCA, at least my local bishop, have done a poor job educating the parishioners and standing up to the pro-abortion, pro-homo influence that is poisoning the OCA.. [rest of rant redacted]
I sorta kinda try not to follow church politics too much, but I don't think we live in the same world.
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« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2013, 08:23:30 AM »

Pro-abortion?  Pro-homo?  I didn't even know they had leagues!  (Apologies to Michael Jr. - comedian)
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« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2013, 09:35:55 AM »



Point is, the OCA is a joke and I wouldn't be surprised if my parish leaves for Rocor. You know, people who actually care about the Church and who actually stand up for their clergy.

You as an individual can decide to change to the ROCOR, but I doubt you & others in your parish who want to go to the ROCOR can take your churchbuilding with you.  How long have you been a member of the OCA?
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« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2013, 09:43:39 AM »

Can we please bring back the moratorium?

+1

Make it permanent actually.
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« Reply #50 on: September 09, 2013, 09:46:10 AM »

Re-reading your post, tcolon, and you wrote:
Quote
The Eastern Churches have real men. Monasteries here in the US run by the OCA are plagued with feminized limp-wrists who care more about how nice they can sing or how much they smile. They don't put their monks to work and they feed them like teenagers in puberty.

I can take a wild guess as to which diocese you're in with what you said about your bishop, but what you write about monastics is harsh and mean-spirited.  Each monastery is going to be different in their typikon, their work, and their struggles.  To lump all monastics (really, all men the way I interpret your post) is a disservice to the Church in the US, no matter what jurisdiction.  When you have visited all the monasteries in all the jurisdictions in the US, let me know your views on each please.  I have some visiting for myself to do.
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« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2013, 09:46:23 AM »

Can we please bring back the moratorium?

+1

Make it permanent actually.

+2
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« Reply #52 on: September 09, 2013, 09:53:00 AM »

I would think an Anglican or other liturgical Western christian would have a much easier time of it than an Evangelical  from a non-liturgical background.

You'd think so, but I think the reality, at least for some, is that if you've already rooted your spiritual life within a particular liturgical framework, it is hard to break down that structure and build up a new one.  If you're coming from a non-liturgical background like Evangelicalism, no framework was ever "built" in the first place: once you accept the idea of corporate liturgical worship, it's just a matter of time before you root yourself in its rhythms and patterns, building up your spiritual life around it.  There's nothing to "unlearn" and then "relearn" as there is for people coming from a non-Byzantine liturgical tradition.     

Well, that's not entirely true. It may not be as comprehensive as the Roman Rite or even the Anglican Rite, but much (most?) of the Evangelical denominations have their own patterns of worship, which they follow Sunday after Sunday. You may be extemporaneous in your prayer, but it's still planned and scheduled in those few minutes of singing and announcements before the lecture begins :-). Still a structure that has to be broken down and replaced by something else, albeit something with few foundations in Western culture. (At least something like the "O Come, Emmanuel" antiphon from the Roman Rite would be somewhat familiar to most coming from a Western Christian background.)
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« Reply #53 on: September 09, 2013, 09:57:22 AM »

I would think an Anglican or other liturgical Western christian would have a much easier time of it than an Evangelical  from a non-liturgical background.

You'd think so, but I think the reality, at least for some, is that if you've already rooted your spiritual life within a particular liturgical framework, it is hard to break down that structure and build up a new one.  If you're coming from a non-liturgical background like Evangelicalism, no framework was ever "built" in the first place: once you accept the idea of corporate liturgical worship, it's just a matter of time before you root yourself in its rhythms and patterns, building up your spiritual life around it.  There's nothing to "unlearn" and then "relearn" as there is for people coming from a non-Byzantine liturgical tradition.     

Well, that's not entirely true. It may not be as comprehensive as the Roman Rite or even the Anglican Rite, but much (most?) of the Evangelical denominations have their own patterns of worship, which they follow Sunday after Sunday. You may be extemporaneous in your prayer, but it's still planned and scheduled in those few minutes of singing and announcements before the lecture begins :-). Still a structure that has to be broken down and replaced by something else, albeit something with few foundations in Western culture. (At least something like the "O Come, Emmanuel" antiphon from the Roman Rite would be somewhat familiar to most coming from a Western Christian background.)

I grew up in a liturgical church too!  Here was, basically, my liturgy:

Quote
Casual welcome and announcements
Stand up for 4-5 songs
During the set, or at the very end, add a short prayer
Sermon
Closing song
Dismissal

From:  http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2013/08/01/is-the-new-evangelical-liturgy-really-an-improvement/

Every week, kind of the same.  But I did not see it as a ritual, because I was told it was not one.
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« Reply #54 on: September 09, 2013, 10:30:21 AM »

+3

I know that I kind of baited this particular iteration of the discussion — forgive me, a sinner! — but the level of discussion of homosexuality has risen to almost fetish levels around here.
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« Reply #55 on: September 09, 2013, 10:37:03 AM »

+3

I know that I kind of baited this particular iteration of the discussion — forgive me, a sinner! — but the level of discussion of homosexuality has risen to almost fetish levels around here.

That has happened elsewhere on a once somewhat serious competing boad which now seems obsessed by that and one other issue. I hope that doesn't happen here.
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« Reply #56 on: September 09, 2013, 12:12:10 PM »

Well, that's not entirely true. It may not be as comprehensive as the Roman Rite or even the Anglican Rite, but much (most?) of the Evangelical denominations have their own patterns of worship, which they follow Sunday after Sunday. You may be extemporaneous in your prayer, but it's still planned and scheduled in those few minutes of singing and announcements before the lecture begins :-). Still a structure that has to be broken down and replaced by something else, albeit something with few foundations in Western culture. (At least something like the "O Come, Emmanuel" antiphon from the Roman Rite would be somewhat familiar to most coming from a Western Christian background.)

I accept your point that Evangelical denominations have "patterns of worship", but still I think it's not the same. 

First of all...

Quote
Casual welcome and announcements
Stand up for 4-5 songs
During the set, or at the very end, add a short prayer
Sermon
Closing song
Dismissal


...if it's an accurate description of an Evangelical service, is sufficiently general that it could describe the Divine Liturgy in any apostolic rite.  If the Evangelical in question bounces among a few different denominations, their services won't require such an adjustment as would be the case in converting to Orthodoxy or even Roman Catholicism.  Moreover, even if that structure covers corporate worship, it doesn't necessarily hold true at home.  When you're on your own or within a family, your personal prayer life can take any shape you want.  You can follow a modified form of the church service, or some devotions out of a booklet, or something completely extemporaneous...you can even switch around among these models as you see fit. 

That doesn't really work in Orthodoxy, and it only somewhat works in Roman Catholicism: in these traditions, liturgy governs even so-called private prayer.  Once the Evangelical convert to Orthodoxy accepts that the rigid distinction between corporate and private prayer isn't really so rigid, once he accepts the idea of liturgical prayer, it's just a matter of getting one's feet wet, and eventually things will click.

For someone switching between liturgical traditions, however, it's a bit different.  Their corporate prayer experience and their private prayer life has been rooted in a particular tradition governing what is prayed when and in what way.  If you're doing it right, it becomes second nature.  Its words, acts, thoughts, seasons, rhythms become a part of you, a part of your life, a part of how you interact with God and creation.  If such a person converts to some other tradition, even if they are committed to their new faith, a new liturgical life can be hard to adjust to because they are expected, at least implicitly, to break old habits and learn new ones in a very personal aspect of their life: their relationship with God.  As long as "old habits" are not contrary to the faith, and if they are genuinely helpful for that person's spiritual growth, I'm not convinced that they should be summarily dumped just because they aren't found in the Typikon of the Great Church.  Those "old habits" could be little things or even whole rites.   

Liturgy is like a language.  If you have a blank slate, it's easier to pick one up than it is to grow up knowing one and then learn how to communicate as effectively in another. 
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« Reply #57 on: September 09, 2013, 12:27:20 PM »



+3
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« Reply #58 on: September 09, 2013, 12:36:42 PM »

+3

I know that I kind of baited this particular iteration of the discussion — forgive me, a sinner! — but the level of discussion of homosexuality has risen to almost fetish levels around here.

That has happened elsewhere on a once somewhat serious competing boad which now seems obsessed by that and one other issue. I hope that doesn't happen here.

I hope not, too.  This forum is much larger now than it used to be, and I think it would be much more difficult to dominate it with one topic than it was when we instituted the moratorium years ago.
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« Reply #59 on: September 09, 2013, 07:19:13 PM »

+3

I know that I kind of baited this particular iteration of the discussion — forgive me, a sinner! — but the level of discussion of homosexuality has risen to almost fetish levels around here.

That has happened elsewhere on a once somewhat serious competing boad which now seems obsessed by that and one other issue. I hope that doesn't happen here.

I hope not, too.  This forum is much larger now than it used to be, and I think it would be much more difficult to dominate it with one topic than it was when we instituted the moratorium years ago.

Graphic sexual language and topics should also be banned.
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« Reply #60 on: September 10, 2013, 04:28:49 PM »

Don't the rules already ban that? By the way, if there was no need for Anglicans to use an Orthodox facility to conduct their services, why did they do it?
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« Reply #61 on: September 10, 2013, 08:39:59 PM »

Don't the rules already ban that? By the way, if there was no need for Anglicans to use an Orthodox facility to conduct their services, why did they do it?

It just says they were visiting the Chancery and prayed there.  The problem with the statement in the article is
Quote
...,together with Father Chad Hatfield and Father John Parker,...
which does give me pause, because it could imply that Orthodox priests prayed with Anglicans.  Or not.  You can read as much into it as you want.  This service was part of a scheduled visit.  It doesn't even say if they prayed in the chapel or not.  Pictures anywhere?
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« Reply #62 on: September 10, 2013, 09:25:31 PM »

The problem with the statement in the article is
Quote
...,together with Father Chad Hatfield and Father John Parker,...
which does give me pause, because it could imply that Orthodox priests prayed with Anglicans.  Or not.  You can read as much into it as you want.  This service was part of a scheduled visit.  It doesn't even say if they prayed in the chapel or not.  Pictures anywhere?

What would that prove?  Unless they show the two OCA priests wearing Anglican vestments, performing some rite or receiving some "sacrament", a photo won't prove anything other than that they were there.  If an Orthodox priest wears a cassock and a jeweled cross at an Anglican service, is he praying by default?  For all we know, he could be standing there thinking of pot roast. 
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« Reply #63 on: September 10, 2013, 09:36:11 PM »

The problem with the statement in the article is
Quote
...,together with Father Chad Hatfield and Father John Parker,...
which does give me pause, because it could imply that Orthodox priests prayed with Anglicans.  Or not.  You can read as much into it as you want.  This service was part of a scheduled visit.  It doesn't even say if they prayed in the chapel or not.  Pictures anywhere?

What would that prove?  Unless they show the two OCA priests wearing Anglican vestments, performing some rite or receiving some "sacrament", a photo won't prove anything other than that they were there.  If an Orthodox priest wears a cassock and a jeweled cross at an Anglican service, is he praying by default?  For all we know, he could be standing there thinking of pot roast. 

I think of pot roast every now and again.  A picture would give me more context to the extremely brief statement that was released.  You can tell a lot, for example, showing two OCA priests to the side observing Anglicans do a prayer service as opposed to showing two OCA priests holding prayer books and mouths open (again, it could be anything: responding, praying, yawning Wink ) in the midst of Anglican clergy.  So, no, it wouldn't give us the "Aha, heresy!" moment, which is not my intent at all.  There are plenty of other posters here looking for that angle.  This thread originated from a vague entry on a blog to homosexuality and non-manly OCA monks, so you can cut me some slack if I wouldn't mind seeing even one photo of who the heck they're even talking about in the article.  Thanks to you, I'm going to make some pot roast tomorrow.  Smiley
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« Reply #64 on: September 10, 2013, 09:42:31 PM »

I think of pot roast every now and again.  A picture would give me more context to the extremely brief statement that was released.  You can tell a lot, for example, showing two OCA priests to the side observing Anglicans do a prayer service as opposed to showing two OCA priests holding prayer books and mouths open (again, it could be anything: responding, praying, yawning Wink ) in the midst of Anglican clergy.  So, no, it wouldn't give us the "Aha, heresy!" moment, which is not my intent at all.  There are plenty of other posters here looking for that angle.  This thread originated from a vague entry on a blog to homosexuality and non-manly OCA monks, so you can cut me some slack if I wouldn't mind seeing even one photo of who the heck they're even talking about in the article.

Forgive me if you thought my comment was directed particularly to you.  I think that, in general, people searching for the smoking gun of ecumenist heresy in such a vague description is more problematic than Orthodox priests being within arms' reach of praying Anglicans. 

Quote
Thanks to you, I'm going to make some pot roast tomorrow.  Smiley

Not on Wednesday you don't!  Tongue
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« Reply #65 on: September 10, 2013, 10:01:31 PM »

I think of pot roast every now and again.  A picture would give me more context to the extremely brief statement that was released.  You can tell a lot, for example, showing two OCA priests to the side observing Anglicans do a prayer service as opposed to showing two OCA priests holding prayer books and mouths open (again, it could be anything: responding, praying, yawning Wink ) in the midst of Anglican clergy.  So, no, it wouldn't give us the "Aha, heresy!" moment, which is not my intent at all.  There are plenty of other posters here looking for that angle.  This thread originated from a vague entry on a blog to homosexuality and non-manly OCA monks, so you can cut me some slack if I wouldn't mind seeing even one photo of who the heck they're even talking about in the article.

Forgive me if you thought my comment was directed particularly to you.  I think that, in general, people searching for the smoking gun of ecumenist heresy in such a vague description is more problematic than Orthodox priests being within arms' reach of praying Anglicans. 

Quote
Thanks to you, I'm going to make some pot roast tomorrow.  Smiley

Not on Wednesday you don't!  Tongue

Hahahaha, well, I can get the ingredients then put it in my slow cooker tomorrow evening and let that bad boy go for 12 hours.  Going on your comment, I do think that the never-ending search for said heresy prevents people from doing more important things, like praying.  Or being tempted by a roast.  Anything, really.  Talking of roasts, even on a fasting day, is infinitely more edifying than the secret homosexual Illuminati that are *gasp*controlling Roll Eyes the OCA.
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