OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 01, 2014, 06:05:21 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Spiritual Body  (Read 565 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Virtual Paradise
Moderated
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 225



« on: March 24, 2013, 04:23:41 PM »

Are there different types of resurrection? What is the fist resurrection and what is the second resurrection?

What did Paul meant when he said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God ? What does he mean when he says that the first Adam became a living soul but the last Adam, a life giving spirit? And what does he mean when he says that we have beared the image of the first Adam and that we will bear the image of the last Adam. Why are they referred to as in an antithesis? It says the first Adam was natural, from the earth, the dust and the last Adam from the sky. First comes the natural than the spiritual. It is sown a natural and coruptible body(can also mean form, as in the body of the stars, suns, etc) but raises up a spiritual one ? Also what does he mean when he says that we shall meet the Lord in heaven and so we shall always be with him(speaking of the Second Coming and Resurrection) ? Does that imply that we will be raised in heaven and be in heaven with the Lord? What does Paul mean when he says it will raise a "spiritual body" ?  When Jesus is questioned by the Sadducees they ask him to whom will the woman pertain/belong when the Resurrection occurs. And he says that at the Resurrection people will no longer be(or act) as in marriage or be married, but be like the angels of God in heaven. What does that mean, be like the angels in heaven ? Will you not be bother of material stuff and desires when the Resurrection occures? Jesus seems to imply that by dismissing the woman's married statute. Also how do you interpret that in the context of Christian marriage , the man shall join his wife and become one flesh ? Was Adam created dirrectly corruptible and material according to 1Cor 15? 1 Cor 15 says the first Adam(man) was made from the earth and that the natural and corruptible and material came first and that the first Adam became a living being(soul), but the last Adam is the "man" from Heaven , even the Lord , who is a Spirit giving being and we will bear his image as we beared the image of the first Adam. Also does 1Cor 15 imply that only those who are in Christ will have part of that spoken resurrection, those who will bear the image of Christ will become incoruptible and raised again? I saw that argued by an atheist that Paul in 1Cor 15 only mentions the Christians being the ones who will resurrect. Here you have the Scriptures :

Quote
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh[c] of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being

Quote
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15


Quote
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thess 4

Quote
23 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 24 saying: “Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

Matthew 22

Quote
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Revelation 20
Logged
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2013, 11:35:17 PM »

Man has a spiritual dimension. His physical is not meant to function without the spiritual, but be led by it, just like the case of Christ's Divine nature leading His Human nature. They were perfectly joined without fusion, but without separation either. You cannot say that Christ was Divine without saying He was Human and vice-verse.

We are called to become man-god through the Grace of The Holy Spirit. Through the fall into sin humanity has been distracted from this goal and instead has ended up in a profoundly physical universe, one that lacks the abundant and direct presence of God. It's not that God has left us or that we became evil through the fall, but we are in a confused state, and the harshness and sharpness of this profoundly physical world is not the true state of things.
Logged

NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,849


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2013, 02:23:00 AM »

This video may help:

'What did Paul mean in 1 Corinthians 15 by a "spiritual body"?'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jNaVgyqUD8

« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 02:23:08 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Virtual Paradise
Moderated
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 225



« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2013, 12:02:49 PM »

This video may help:

'What did Paul mean in 1 Corinthians 15 by a "spiritual body"?'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jNaVgyqUD8



Ok , so was the first Adam not a spiritual body/embodiment? Also does Paul refer in 1Cor 15 to all the people or only to those who are in Christ and believe in Him? Explain.

In 1 Thess 4 if The Lord is coming to earth, why would those who are alive be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord and so be always with him? Does that mean this habituation will be in the Sky ? Explain.

Why does Revelation eschatology uses terms like First Resurrection and Second Death? Are there more than one[types of] Resurrections ? Explain.

What does it mean that people will not marry or be married at the Resurrection but will be like the angels of the Lord in heaven? Does that mean that our bodies will be asexual at the Resurrection without cravings to physical relationships and belongings like the ones between husband and wife? Does that include also parental and friendship relationships? Does that the resurrected, spiritual body will not be tied to any physical and material belongings? Explain.

What does it mean that we will be like the angels of the Lord in heaven? Does it mean our bodies(forms) will be like those of the angels, thin ? What does it mean that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God? Does it mean that we will no longer have material clingings such as desires, hunger, thirst, fatigue, etc ? Explain.

If we will be like the angels, having spiritual bodies without material connections and material desires and material needs what is the point of a continuos material / physical world ? Explain.

How can we be with the uncircumscribed one - God - in his full being if we will continue to be circumscribed? Explain.


Logged
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,849


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2013, 12:19:42 PM »

Ok , so was the first Adam not a spiritual body/embodiment?
Not according to the Holy Scriptures.

Also does Paul refer in 1Cor 15 to all the people or only to those who are in Christ and believe in Him? Explain.
Both, but only the believers to salvation.

In 1 Thess 4 if The Lord is coming to earth, why would those who are alive be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord and so be always with him? Does that mean this habituation will be in the Sky ? Explain.
Because Christ will descend from the heavens (the sky) with his holy angels and saints on the day of judgment. Those righteous who are living on earth at this time will arise into the air in order to meet him as he descends, so that they can join in his procession to earth. (IMO)

Why does Revelation eschatology uses terms like First Resurrection and Second Death? Are there more than one[types of] Resurrections ? Explain.
If I recall, the first resurrection refers to the resurrection of the saints, followed by the resurrection of all the nations. The Second Death refers to the experience of Gehenna at the last judgment.

What does it mean that people will not marry or be married at the Resurrection but will be like the angels of the Lord in heaven? Does that mean that our bodies will be asexual at the Resurrection without cravings to physical relationships and belongings like the ones between husband and wife?
I believe that all we know for sure is that we won't be fallen, lustful or carnal. But communing physically in some way is human, and will persist, and be glorified.

Does that include also parental and friendship relationships? Does that the resurrected, spiritual body will not be tied to any physical and material belongings? Explain.
Spiritual is not the opposite of physical. St. Paul opposes a soulish body (the sort we have now) to a body animated by the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit gives life to all flesh.

What does it mean that we will be like the angels of the Lord in heaven? Does it mean our bodies(forms) will be like those of the angels, thin ?
No, that would be taking the Lord out of context. We aspire to be humans and are glorified as humans.

What does it mean that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God? Does it mean that we will no longer have material clingings such as desires, hunger, thirst, fatigue, etc ? Explain.
We will desire, hunger, thirst and seek our rest in God, and he will give himself totally to us, fulfilling these things.

Flesh and blood refers to fallen, carnal (fleshly) humanity.

If we will be like the angels, having spiritual bodies without material connections and material desires and material needs what is the point of a continuos material / physical world ? Explain.
We will still be material. But we will be material beings constituted from Christ and animated by His Holy Spirit.

"For to which of the angels has God ever said, 'Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet?"

How can we be with the uncircumscribed one - God - in his full being if we will continue to be circumscribed? Explain.
Because God condescends to meet us in our circumscription.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 12:24:26 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Virtual Paradise
Moderated
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 225



« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2013, 01:48:56 PM »

Ok , so was the first Adam not a spiritual body/embodiment?
Not according to the Holy Scriptures.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”f ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

Explain this Scripture than.

Also explain what does it mean the first man is of the dust of the earth , the second of heaven ?

47The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall weg bear the image of the heavenly man.

Quote
Also does Paul refer in 1Cor 15 to all the people or only to those who are in Christ and believe in Him? Explain.
Both, but only the believers to salvation.

Argumentate it. Explain.

Quote
In 1 Thess 4 if The Lord is coming to earth, why would those who are alive be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord and so be always with him? Does that mean this habituation will be in the Sky ? Explain.
Because Christ will descend from the heavens (the sky) with his holy angels and saints on the day of judgment. Those righteous who are living on earth at this time will arise into the air in order to meet him as he descends, so that they can join in his procession to earth. (IMO)

Why would they do that if they are already at the place of destination?

Quote
Why does Revelation eschatology uses terms like First Resurrection and Second Death? Are there more than one[types of] Resurrections ? Explain.
If I recall, the first resurrection refers to the resurrection of the saints, followed by the resurrection of all the nations. The Second Death refers to the experience of Gehenna at the last judgment.

Revelation 20 says Blessed are those who have part in the first resurrection because they will not experience the Second Death. So then the resurrection of the nations will be for the experience of Gehenna?

Quote
What does it mean that people will not marry or be married at the Resurrection but will be like the angels of the Lord in heaven? Does that mean that our bodies will be asexual at the Resurrection without cravings to physical relationships and belongings like the ones between husband and wife?
I believe that all we know for sure is that we won't be fallen, lustful or carnal. But communing physically in some way is human, and will persist, and be glorified.


Christ said that at the Resurrection the woman won't be married or get married. Does that mean that she will no longer be bound by earthly belongings, relationships, etc.. Marriage is a relationship between man and woman(husband and wife). If the Resurrection annuls that, doesn't it annul all sort of human relationships also? More argumentated and elaborated answers please.

Quote
Does that include also parental and friendship relationships? Does that the resurrected, spiritual body will not be tied to any physical and material belongings? Explain.
Spiritual is not the opposite of physical. St. Paul opposes a soulish body (the sort we have now) to a body animated by the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit gives life to all flesh.


Jesus said that at the Resurrection they neither marry or are married. Does that mean that the resurrected body will not be tied to any material belongings and relationships? Marriage is a material "communal" relationship, perhaps the most sacred human relationship. If that tiedness is annulled by the Resurrection aren't there all tied relationships and material belongings thus annulled? Much more as it anulles "flesh and blood" which is why we are hungry, tired, thirsty, etc. ?

Quote
What does it mean that we will be like the angels of the Lord in heaven? Does it mean our bodies(forms) will be like those of the angels, thin ?
No, that would be taking the Lord out of context. We aspire to be humans and are glorified as humans.

Explain what Jesus meant saying that at the Resurrection they will be like the angels of the Lord in heaven. Articulate, argumentate and explain your answers.

Quote
What does it mean that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God? Does it mean that we will no longer have material clingings such as desires, hunger, thirst, fatigue, etc ? Explain.
We will desire, hunger, thirst and seek our rest in God, and he will give himself totally to us, fulfilling these things.

Flesh and blood refers to fallen, carnal (fleshly) humanity.


Well isn't flesh and blood why we eat, drink, get tired, are corruptible and grow sick?

Quote
If we will be like the angels, having spiritual bodies without material connections and material desires and material needs what is the point of a continuos material / physical world ? Explain.
We will still be material. But we will be material beings constituted from Christ and animated by His Holy Spirit.

"For to which of the angels has God ever said, 'Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet?"


Will we still have flesh and blood? Will we be asexual or able to reproduce? What type of "material" will our bodies be?


Quote
How can we be with the uncircumscribed one - God - in his full being if we will continue to be circumscribed? Explain.
Because God condescends to meet us in our circumscription.

But that will not be a correspondance between bare being and bare being, "face to face" , nature to nature. A meeting of ultimacy. Or are we not meant to meet God in his ultimacy , infinitum, and Unexpandability ?
Logged
Virtual Paradise
Moderated
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 225



« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2013, 03:01:08 PM »

Also what was Christ meaning when He said that the heaven and earth shall pass away ?
Logged
Virtual Paradise
Moderated
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 225



« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2013, 08:22:46 PM »

What is material is susceptible to corruption , change, malformation , etc. Will people after the last jugdement and the Resurrection still be dying?
Logged
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,849


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2013, 12:25:38 AM »




Ok , so was the first Adam not a spiritual body/embodiment?

Not according to the Holy Scriptures.

Explain this Scripture than.


You misunderstood me. I meant “The first Adam was not a spiritual body according to the Scriptures.”


Also explain what does it mean the first man is of the dust of the earth , the second of heaven ?

The first Adam was made from dust in the Book of Genesis. The second Adam, Christ, came from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the virgin mary.

Quote


Also does Paul refer in 1Cor 15 to all the people or only to those who are in Christ and believe in Him? Explain.

Quote

Both, but only the believers to salvation.

Argumentate it. Explain.

All of humanity will be raised, but only the righteous will experience this resurrection in a salvific way. The haters of God will despise it.

Quote

Because Christ will descend from the heavens (the sky) with his holy angels and saints on the day of judgment. Those righteous who are living on earth at this time will arise into the air in order to meet him as he descends, so that they can join in his procession to earth. (IMO)

Why would they do that if they are already at the place of destination?

The second coming is like a battle and victory procession. So all of the saints on earth go to meet the king to be part of the procession with him. This is a position of great love and honor, and unity of the faithful.


Revelation 20 says Blessed are those who have part in the first resurrection because they will not experience the Second Death. So then the resurrection of the nations will be for the experience of Gehenna?

I think that it will be for *some* of the nations.


Marriage is a relationship between man and woman(husband and wife). If the Resurrection annuls that, doesn't it annul all sort of human relationships also?


Explain what Jesus meant saying that at the Resurrection they will be like the angels of the Lord in heaven.

He said we would be like the angels of the Lord in heaven, in the context of marriage. Because angels are not given or taken in marriage. But that doesn’t imply that humans will become spirits with no materiality. Humans will always be human and material, but we will exist in relation to the material world in a different way.

For example, now we eat and drink because our nature compels us to out of necessity. It is a circumscription on our freedom. In the kingdom of heaven, we will still eat and drink. In fact, we do so at the Divine Liturgy. But it is eating and drinking out of love and freedom, not out of being bound.

Similarly, the communion of marriage will not be destroyed, but will rather be transformed and expanded to be part of the greater marriage of God and creation. IMO.



What type of "material" will our bodies be?


I don’t know.


But that will not be a correspondance between bare being and bare being, "face to face" , nature to nature. A meeting of ultimacy. Or are we not meant to meet God in his ultimacy , infinitum, and Unexpandability ?


There is no such thing as bare being in the sense that you mean it. God and humans both exist and shine forth through their energies, that is, their actions and way of existing in communion. Energies are the means by which you encounter another being. There is no other way to do so. And this is proper. This is good. This is real.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 12:26:07 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,488



« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2013, 04:03:39 AM »

I knew Nick would be drawn to this like a moth to flame.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,488



« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2013, 04:04:19 AM »

This video may help:

'What did Paul mean in 1 Corinthians 15 by a "spiritual body"?'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jNaVgyqUD8



This video is private.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Virtual Paradise
Moderated
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 225



« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2013, 12:37:27 AM »




Ok , so was the first Adam not a spiritual body/embodiment?

Not according to the Holy Scriptures.

Explain this Scripture than.


You misunderstood me. I meant “The first Adam was not a spiritual body according to the Scriptures.”

That means that we will become something greater than Adam was. Also does that mean that Adam was made material and corruptible (subject to age,decay,death,etc) right from the start?

Quote

Also explain what does it mean the first man is of the dust of the earth , the second of heaven ?

The first Adam was made from dust in the Book of Genesis. The second Adam, Christ, came from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the virgin mary.

Doesn't that mean that the first man was the natural man and that the Second one, the Divinized Man (The second Adam). Because what was Jesus in heaven other than God and divine?

Quote
Quote


Also does Paul refer in 1Cor 15 to all the people or only to those who are in Christ and believe in Him? Explain.

Quote

Both, but only the believers to salvation.

Argumentate it. Explain.

All of humanity will be raised, but only the righteous will experience this resurrection in a salvific way. The haters of God will despise it.

We are discussing 1Cor 15. Where do you see Paul in 1Cor 15 saying that all will resurrect?

Quote
Quote

Because Christ will descend from the heavens (the sky) with his holy angels and saints on the day of judgment. Those righteous who are living on earth at this time will arise into the air in order to meet him as he descends, so that they can join in his procession to earth. (IMO)

Why would they do that if they are already at the place of destination?

The second coming is like a battle and victory procession. So all of the saints on earth go to meet the king to be part of the procession with him. This is a position of great love and honor, and unity of the faithful.

A procession of victory over who? A battle against whom? Also doesn't our Church teach that the heaven and earth we will be living at the Resurrection will be a "New Heaven and New Earth". What does that mean? And that our resurrected bodies will be thin like the Body of the Resurrected Christ no longer bound by the law of physics.

Quote

Revelation 20 says Blessed are those who have part in the first resurrection because they will not experience the Second Death. So then the resurrection of the nations will be for the experience of Gehenna?

I think that it will be for *some* of the nations.

Your eisegesis said that the second resurrection is the resurrection of the nations. Clearly your eisigesis is wrong somewhere as the Second Resurrection coincides with the Second Death. So how can it be the resurrection of the nations if not all nations will experience the Second Death?

Quote

Marriage is a relationship between man and woman(husband and wife). If the Resurrection annuls that, doesn't it annul all sort of human relationships also?


Explain what Jesus meant saying that at the Resurrection they will be like the angels of the Lord in heaven.

He said we would be like the angels of the Lord in heaven, in the context of marriage. Because angels are not given or taken in marriage. But that doesn’t imply that humans will become spirits with no materiality. Humans will always be human and material, but we will exist in relation to the material world in a different way.

The question of the sadducees was whose wife would the woman be at the resurrection, because she was married with 7 brothers(the law of leviterate). To me that is a question of relation. To whom will the woman relate. So I am asking you the same thing, to whom will the woman relate from all her 7 husbands? Also why does a law like the law of leviterate exist?

Quote
For example, now we eat and drink because our nature compels us to out of necessity. It is a circumscription on our freedom. In the kingdom of heaven, we will still eat and drink. In fact, we do so at the Divine Liturgy. But it is eating and drinking out of love and freedom, not out of being bound.

How about ageing, growing tired, dying ? And another question what age will our resurrected bodies be?

Also how can our bodies be fully material and the world material? Because what is material is subjected to corruption, change, malformation, dissipation. I thought the Church says that it will be a "New Heaven and Earth" and that our resurrected bodies will be lighter, different, glorified, like the body of Christ. Also what does it mean that God will be all in all?

Quote
Similarly, the communion of marriage will not be destroyed, but will rather be transformed and expanded to be part of the greater marriage of God and creation. IMO.

Will you still be able to reproduce? What about dying? If you will be able to reproduce and the Earth and World will still exist in this same parameters and you would be immortal, at one point the Earth will Overpopulate.

If you would not be able to reproduce nor be subjected to hunger, thirst, decay, etc, what point to have a material World and Earth if there will be no need of this material functions?

Quote

What type of "material" will our bodies be?


I don’t know.

The fathers say lighter bodies like the Body of Christ that will function in different parameters.

Quote

But that will not be a correspondance between bare being and bare being, "face to face" , nature to nature. A meeting of ultimacy. Or are we not meant to meet God in his ultimacy , infinitum, and Unexpandability ?


There is no such thing as bare being in the sense that you mean it. God and humans both exist and shine forth through their energies, that is, their actions and way of existing in communion. Energies are the means by which you encounter another being. There is no other way to do so. And this is proper. This is good. This is real.

God is a Being. God in his Being is Divine. The nature of God's being is Divine. What I was saying that what you are proposing will not be a meeting between us and the Divine nature, in that we will not not be meeting with God in His Divine Nature, in His Absolute Imense and Infinite Being. If God is a Person, that we will not be meeting with this Person in his ousia/essence/substance but in his Hypostasis. And we ourselves will not be in our ousia/essence/substance if we are material.. As the soul and the flesh are often in antithesis, and the essence of your being and of your soul is within, and not always what is within in your inmost being corresponds with what is without, if so like only a few times.. So it will not be a meeting between Persons ousia vs ousia..

What does it mean that God will be all in all ?
Logged
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 5,561


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2013, 03:30:47 AM »

I hate words like "spiritual" because they make no sense. No one can really give me a good definition of what "spiritual" is or what "spirit" means. It just sounds like a bunch of emotionalist nonsense. I can't see it, I can't perceive it and it can't be answered logically. I don't see the point in wasting time speculating on something that you can't even define.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,849


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2013, 04:13:48 AM »

That means that we will become something greater than Adam was.
Yes.

Also does that mean that Adam was made material and corruptible (subject to age,decay,death,etc) right from the start?
He was by nature, but was sustained against these things by the grace of God.

Doesn't that mean that the first man was the natural man and that the Second one, the Divinized Man (The second Adam). Because what was Jesus in heaven other than God and divine?
Yes.

We are discussing 1Cor 15. Where do you see Paul in 1Cor 15 saying that all will resurrect?
He is speaking about resurrection in general.

A procession of victory over who? A battle against whom?
The fallen state of the cosmos.

Also doesn't our Church teach that the heaven and earth we will be living at the Resurrection will be a "New Heaven and New Earth". What does that mean?
Everything will be re-made to the glory of God, and God will be all in all.

Your eisegesis said that the second resurrection is the resurrection of the nations. Clearly your eisigesis is wrong somewhere as the Second Resurrection coincides with the Second Death. So how can it be the resurrection of the nations if not all nations will experience the Second Death?
Read that back to yourself.

Quote

Marriage is a relationship between man and woman(husband and wife). If the Resurrection annuls that, doesn't it annul all sort of human relationships also?


Explain what Jesus meant saying that at the Resurrection they will be like the angels of the Lord in heaven.

He said we would be like the angels of the Lord in heaven, in the context of marriage. Because angels are not given or taken in marriage. But that doesn’t imply that humans will become spirits with no materiality. Humans will always be human and material, but we will exist in relation to the material world in a different way.

The question of the sadducees was whose wife would the woman be at the resurrection, because she was married with 7 brothers(the law of leviterate). To me that is a question of relation. To whom will the woman relate. So I am asking you the same thing, to whom will the woman relate from all her 7 husbands?
All of them in a non-carnal way which does not involve carnal/necessary taking or giving.

Also why does a law like the law of leviterate exist?
Because the Hebrews were a near-eastern pastoral nomadic people, and those people had that sort of law.

Quote
For example, now we eat and drink because our nature compels us to out of necessity. It is a circumscription on our freedom. In the kingdom of heaven, we will still eat and drink. In fact, we do so at the Divine Liturgy. But it is eating and drinking out of love and freedom, not out of being bound.

How about ageing, growing tired, dying ? And another question what age will our resurrected bodies be?
They will not age toward death or tire.  I don't know what age they will be.

Also how can our bodies be fully material and the world material? Because what is material is subjected to corruption, change, malformation, dissipation.
If we can't change, then we can't become, and eternity will be quite dull.

As for corruption, material humans are only subject to corruption because of the fall. Christ was human and material but suffered no corruption in the tomb.

I thought the Church says that it will be a "New Heaven and Earth" and that our resurrected bodies will be lighter, different, glorified, like the body of Christ.
The "lighter" thing sounds more like folk Taoism than Christianity. St. Gregory Diologos opposed St. Eutychius of Constantinople when he believed something like that for a while.

Also what does it mean that God will be all in all?
He will actively manifest himself through his Holy Spirit in all things.


Will you still be able to reproduce?
Dunno.

What about dying? If you will be able to reproduce and the Earth and World will still exist in this same parameters and you would be immortal, at one point the Earth will Overpopulate.
There will be no human dying.

Dunno, but we could always make and find more earths and expand the universe infinitely.


If you would not be able to reproduce nor be subjected to hunger, thirst, decay, etc, what point to have a material World and Earth if there will be no need of this material functions?
The same reason that your current life has a point apart from hunger, thirst and decay.

God is a Being. God in his Being is Divine. The nature of God's being is Divine. What I was saying that what you are proposing will not be a meeting between us and the Divine nature, in that we will not not be meeting with God in His Divine Nature, in His Absolute Imense and Infinite Being. If God is a Person, that we will not be meeting with this Person in his ousia/essence/substance but in his Hypostasis. And we ourselves will not be in our ousia/essence/substance if we are material.. As the soul and the flesh are often in antithesis, and the essence of your being and of your soul is within, and not always what is within in your inmost being corresponds with what is without, if so like only a few times.. So it will not be a meeting between Persons ousia vs ousia..
I don't agree with this understanding of God or humans.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 04:20:05 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,849


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2013, 04:15:12 AM »

No one can really give me a good definition of what "spiritual" is or what "spirit" means.
1. The Holy Spirit.
2. Something related or worked or constituted by the Holy Spirit.
3. Man's faculty of perception toward Divine Things.
4. Ghosts.
5. Vague nonsense.

Context is everything.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 04:15:49 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Virtual Paradise
Moderated
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 225



« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2013, 11:01:36 AM »



We are discussing 1Cor 15. Where do you see Paul in 1Cor 15 saying that all will resurrect?
He is speaking about resurrection in general.

Quotation? Learn to justify and argumentate your answers.


Quote
Your eisegesis said that the second resurrection is the resurrection of the nations. Clearly your eisigesis is wrong somewhere as the Second Resurrection coincides with the Second Death. So how can it be the resurrection of the nations if not all nations will experience the Second Death?
Read that back to yourself.

We were discussing resurrection in the context of Revelation. You said that the second resurrection is the resurrection of the nations and than you said that that not all nations will experience the Second Death of gehenna. Revelation says blessed is he who will experience the first resurrection for he will not experience the Second Death. How is that not a contradiction to yourself? Explain yourself.


Quote
The question of the sadducees was whose wife would the woman be at the resurrection, because she was married with 7 brothers(the law of leviterate). To me that is a question of relation. To whom will the woman relate. So I am asking you the same thing, to whom will the woman relate from all her 7 husbands?
All of them in a non-carnal way which does not involve carnal/necessary taking or giving.

Jesus rebuked the pharisees for thinking in this parameters of husband/wife/leviterate and for asking that question. He said to them you don't know the Scriptures nor the power of God, for they neither marry nor are married , but are like the angels of God in heaven. Why do you think he did that?

Quote
Also why does a law like the law of leviterate exist?
Because the Hebrews were a near-eastern pastoral nomadic people, and those people had that sort of law.

I was asking this from a theological/phylosophical pow not from a cultural one.

Quote
How about ageing, growing tired, dying ? And another question what age will our resurrected bodies be?
They will not age toward death or tire.

What the heck does it mean they will not age toward death? Smiley

Quote
 I don't know what age they will be.

This discussion is so educative to you than. Most say it will be the age of Christ. Around 30 years. An age of youth.

Quote
Also how can our bodies be fully material and the world material? Because what is material is subjected to corruption, change, malformation, dissipation.
If we can't change, then we can't become, and eternity will be quite dull.

Isn't the Resurrection the last becoming / metamorphosis ? Will it be another becoming than that, than? An higher state to aspire ?

Quote
As for corruption, material humans are only subject to corruption because of the fall. Christ was human and material but suffered no corruption in the tomb.

By the laws of nature/physics everything is subject to corruption.

Quote
I thought the Church says that it will be a "New Heaven and Earth" and that our resurrected bodies will be lighter, different, glorified, like the body of Christ.
The "lighter" thing sounds more like folk Taoism than Christianity. St. Gregory Diologos opposed St. Eutychius of Constantinople when he believed something like that for a while.

Saint Gregory's Diologos exact quotation or it didn't happen.



Quote
Will you still be able to reproduce?
Dunno.

How about making sex?

Quote
What about dying? If you will be able to reproduce and the Earth and World will still exist in this same parameters and you would be immortal, at one point the Earth will Overpopulate.
There will be no human dying.

Dunno, but we could always make and find more earths and expand the universe infinitely.

Intergalactic travel? Are aliens already there at the resurrection ? Cheesy .. What kind of communion will that be.. If people wonder about on different planets to populate them.. Eventually they will grow different , separate , etc.. Just look of how different culturally, philosophically, etc people who share the planet Earth are.

Quote

If you would not be able to reproduce nor be subjected to hunger, thirst, decay, etc, what point to have a material World and Earth if there will be no need of this material functions?
The same reason that your current life has a point apart from hunger, thirst and decay.

Non-answer.

Quote
God is a Being. God in his Being is Divine. The nature of God's being is Divine. What I was saying that what you are proposing will not be a meeting between us and the Divine nature, in that we will not not be meeting with God in His Divine Nature, in His Absolute Imense and Infinite Being. If God is a Person, that we will not be meeting with this Person in his ousia/essence/substance but in his Hypostasis. And we ourselves will not be in our ousia/essence/substance if we are material.. As the soul and the flesh are often in antithesis, and the essence of your being and of your soul is within, and not always what is within in your inmost being corresponds with what is without, if so like only a few times.. So it will not be a meeting between Persons ousia vs ousia..
I don't agree with this understanding of God or humans.

Doesn't St James the Apostle in his Epistle say that the body without the soul is dead? So the soul animates the body and it is the life of the body and its inmost being, its essence, isn't it?

In the same manner we will not experience God according to his Divine hypostasis, but his human hypostasis.


Logged
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,849


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2013, 11:59:46 AM »

Why are you being so rude and aggressive?
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,098


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2013, 12:22:36 PM »

I'm confused. Especially with the thing about the aliens.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,488



« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2013, 12:55:05 PM »

Why are you being so rude and aggressive?

I find the OP's tone to be hilarious. Why don't you? Explain.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2013, 01:50:18 PM »

Why are you being so rude and aggressive?

Flick Flack is a ba'al bilbul. That or some novice master escaped from a Tibetan monastery:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M60U7icT4M

 
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: Agnostic
Posts: 29,577



« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2013, 01:54:34 PM »

I hate words like "spiritual" because they make no sense. No one can really give me a good definition of what "spiritual" is or what "spirit" means. It just sounds like a bunch of emotionalist nonsense. I can't see it, I can't perceive it and it can't be answered logically. I don't see the point in wasting time speculating on something that you can't even define.

I like how you speak against "western hell" and the like and then you turn around and take on this approach to things that many 'round these parts would describe as "western rationalism" or some such thing. Keeps people on their toes. Grin
Logged

Problem: John finds a spider under his bed. John eats the spider. John gets sick to his stomach.

Question: Why did John get sick?
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,849


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2013, 12:28:03 PM »

Why are you being so rude and aggressive?

I find the OP's tone to be hilarious. Why don't you? Explain.
My apparent unhilarity was actually a fetish put in place to defend my ego from the notion that I don't have all the answers, and am but a mocked speck in an ocean of Pasadis.
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.138 seconds with 49 queries.