Author Topic: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?  (Read 34603 times)

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Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #225 on: August 27, 2017, 06:03:50 PM »
Anglo Catholic liturgy doesn't have Eucharist? I've never been to one but I always thought they did. This would be the same liturgy used by those who joined the Anglican ordinariate prior to their conversion, right?
No valid orders, no grace.  No grace, no Eucharist.

Both priests and bishops welcome to the Anglican Ordinariate are ordained again, but only as deacons or priests, after individual consideration by Rome.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 06:05:33 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #226 on: August 27, 2017, 06:15:27 PM »
Anglo Catholic liturgy doesn't have Eucharist? I've never been to one but I always thought they did. This would be the same liturgy used by those who joined the Anglican ordinariate prior to their conversion, right?
No valid orders, no grace.  No grace, no Eucharist.

Both priests and bishops welcome to the Anglican Ordinariate are ordained again, but only as deacons or priests, after individual consideration by Rome.

Right. Catholics don't recognize Anglican orders. We never have after their original ex-Catholic bishops and the validly consecrated Thomas Cranmer, the first non-Catholic Archbishop of Canterbury. Pope Leo XIII made it official in 1896. Because Catholics and Protestants have views on the Eucharist that are too different. Many modern Anglicans believe what we all do about it but that church's framers didn't.

The Orthodox have a slightly different view. In practice it's the same as ours but in theory some, including the founding first hierarch of ROCOR, have opined that Anglicans could be received economically in their orders, the way many Orthodox receive ex-Catholic priests, if the whole Anglican Communion decided to enter Orthodoxy.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #227 on: August 27, 2017, 06:27:06 PM »
The Orthodox have a slightly different view. In practice it's the same as ours but in theory some, including the founding first hierarch of ROCOR, have opined that Anglicans could be received economically in their orders, the way many Orthodox receive ex-Catholic priests, if the whole Anglican Communion decided to enter Orthodoxy.
How about Anglican bishops?
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #228 on: August 27, 2017, 06:30:06 PM »
It only makes sense according to this Orthodox opinion that ex-Anglican bishops would be received in their orders, as most Orthodox do with ex-Catholic clergy.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 06:30:48 PM by The young fogey »
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Offline servulus

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #229 on: August 28, 2017, 06:46:10 PM »
Anglo Catholic liturgy doesn't have Eucharist? I've never been to one but I always thought they did. This would be the same liturgy used by those who joined the Anglican ordinariate prior to their conversion, right?
No valid orders, no grace.  No grace, no Eucharist.

Both priests and bishops welcome to the Anglican Ordinariate are ordained again, but only as deacons or priests, after individual consideration by Rome.
Ok, I thought you meant there was no Eucharist in the liturgy. Like if they only had communion periodically as some other protestants do. I didn't think you were referring to valid orders because you said than the N.O. unquestionably had the Eucharist. There are many Orthodox that don't believe Catholic orders are valid.

Offline The young fogey

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #230 on: August 28, 2017, 07:04:46 PM »
Quote
Ok, I thought you meant there was no Eucharist in the liturgy. Like if they only had communion periodically as some other protestants do.

That used to be true of Anglicans, from shortly after the "Reformation" until in some places the 1900s. At first the Reformed version of Protestants, of whom Anglicans are an unusual part (unusual for having bishops), wanted their version of Communion every week. But the English wouldn't budge from the medieval Catholic habit of receiving only four times a year if that (traditional Orthodox piety is essentially the same on this). So the Protestants gave in and only had Communion four times a year since they thought that celebrating without the people receiving is superstitious. Anglicans in George Washington's time only had it that often. The start and growth of Anglo-Catholicism changed that in many places starting in the late 1800s so almost all Episcopal churches, for example, have Communion every Sunday.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 07:05:43 PM by The young fogey »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #231 on: August 29, 2017, 01:44:52 AM »
There are many Orthodox that don't believe Catholic orders are valid.
Still, at least one major Orthodox patriarchate, of Moscow, does, it seems to me, for not reordaining priests joining the Russian Orthodox Church.  But, please, correct me if I'm misreading their understanding into the facts.
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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #232 on: August 29, 2017, 03:09:24 AM »
There are many Orthodox that don't believe Catholic orders are valid.
Still, at least one major Orthodox patriarchate, of Moscow, does, it seems to me, for not reordaining priests joining the Russian Orthodox Church.  But, please, correct me if I'm misreading their understanding into the facts.
At different times in history, different Orthodox churches have treated those issues very differently.
Sometimes, some Catholic sacraments had grace, sometimes not.
At a certain time, one Orthodox church would rebaptize Catholics, whereas another would just make them go to confession,
publicly break away from papacy and receive communion. It is a big mess and inconsistency to this day.
But I guess this kind of inconsistency is not really considered a problem, because each jurisdiction is free to deal as they see fit with such questions.
It is just too centralized-thinking Catholics who perceive this as something which should be defined in a document.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #233 on: August 29, 2017, 03:32:52 AM »
Still, at least one major Orthodox patriarchate, of Moscow, does, it seems to me, for not reordaining priests joining the Russian Orthodox Church.  But, please, correct me if I'm misreading their understanding into the facts.

Orthodoxy doesn't see this in legal terms of valid or invalid. But what happens outside the fullness of the Church is always seen as somewhat incomplete, since it lacks fullness. If priests from heterodox Christian communities such as the Anglican or the Roman Catholic Church become Orthodox, and they are received by vesting, this should not be seen as a legal judgement about the validity of orders in their communities, but as a process of healing and completion, making these received men full Orthodox priests.

And how receptions are done particularly, whether by baptism, chrismation, confession or vesting, remains an issue of ikonomia.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #234 on: August 29, 2017, 09:29:00 AM »
Greek Catholic communities were received en masse without any particular reception rite for individuals. That seems to me to indicate that their baptism was something more than just splashing in a tub, and their chrism more than fancy oil.
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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #235 on: August 30, 2017, 09:37:55 AM »
Greek Catholic communities were received en masse without any particular reception rite for individuals. That seems to me to indicate that their baptism was something more than just splashing in a tub, and their chrism more than fancy oil.

Reception by confession is possible by ikonomia.
As for what their baptism and chrism were, we leave that to the grace of God. The question only appears once someone wants to be united with the one, holy, catholic and apostolic (Orthodox) Church.

But once they wanted that, on receiving them, it was taken into account that people, especially in Zakarpattia, have historically been misled and deceived into Union with Rome and that they have always wished to be Orthodox.

Offline Agabus

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #236 on: August 30, 2017, 11:12:44 AM »
How do the Eastern Orthodox regard the Novus Ordo Mass of the Roman Catholic Church?

So last Sunday — for circumstances that aren't worth going into here — I found myself at the local NO mass.

While it wasn't overall beautiful (and had all the usual alleged liturgical abuses — hand holding during "Our Father," too enthusiastic Sign of the Peace, little girl acolytes, etc.), there was no sense in which I walked away thinking that it wasn't true worship or, to use their words, a valid Eucharist.

Even though some elements were not exactly to my taste (e.g. cheesy electric organ), there were a few moments that I thought had their own beauty. And the laity were more engaged and attentive than a number Orthodox parishes I've been to.

So I guess the answer is that it's not for me but for those who are committed to the idea that the Catholic Church is where they should be and aren't pathological about Latin, sure, it's functional.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #237 on: August 30, 2017, 11:24:17 AM »
Greek Catholic communities were received en masse without any particular reception rite for individuals. That seems to me to indicate that their baptism was something more than just splashing in a tub, and their chrism more than fancy oil.

Reception by confession is possible by ikonomia.

This is a novel theory that, I suspect, only came about once the extreme Greek practice and the Russian practice started bumping into each other in the diaspora and it was necessary to reconcile them. It's pretty clear that the Russian bishops who received Latins by chrismation, or just by confession of faith, believed them to have a true baptism.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 11:25:07 AM by Iconodule »
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Offline wynd

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #238 on: August 30, 2017, 11:52:18 AM »
Around here NO masses look and feel like Lutheran masses with a few Marian prayets added hear and there. Not shocking but I feel kind of sorry for them thinking what treasures they've lost.

I told that to a Lutheran once and he replied "Hey, don't insult our services like that."

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #239 on: August 30, 2017, 05:27:31 PM »
While it wasn't overall beautiful (and had all the usual alleged liturgical abuses — hand holding during "Our Father,"
Pretty common for Antiochians and OOs. I'd like to do in Polish Church - for now I just keep opened hands without holding them high, but in some future, maybe...

too enthusiastic Sign of the Peace,
It happens among Antiochians and OOs. It happens actually beyond the sign of the peace at various moments of the services, especially during the feasts, among various Orthodox jurisdictions. (С праздником! - With the feast!).

little girl acolytes, etc.),
It happenes in the Antiochian Church.
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Offline Agabus

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #240 on: August 30, 2017, 05:36:30 PM »
While it wasn't overall beautiful (and had all the usual alleged liturgical abuses — hand holding during "Our Father,"
Pretty common for Antiochians and OOs. I'd like to do in Polish Church - for now I just keep opened hands without holding them high, but in some future, maybe...

too enthusiastic Sign of the Peace,
It happens among Antiochians and OOs. It happens actually beyond the sign of the peace at various moments of the services, especially during the feasts, among various Orthodox jurisdictions. (С праздником! - With the feast!).

little girl acolytes, etc.),
It happenes in the Antiochian Church.

Only mentioned because it's stuff that people complain about, not because it's something that we don't do.

In my experience, people of Lebanese extraction or their kids will raise their hands like you mentioned during the Our Father in Antiochian churches, but I've never seen hand-holding.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 05:39:46 PM by Agabus »
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #241 on: August 30, 2017, 05:53:40 PM »
This is a novel theory that, I suspect, only came about once the extreme Greek practice and the Russian practice started bumping into each other in the diaspora and it was necessary to reconcile them. It's pretty clear that the Russian bishops who received Latins by chrismation, or just by confession of faith, believed them to have a true baptism.

Western capitivity anyone?
Some theological misdevelopments must be corrected. And please don't take that to mean I accuse Rome of having untrue baptism. No, I leave whatever is outside the visible church to divine grace. And I believe that joining the Church can heal and complete, no matter how this is done in practice.

Offline The young fogey

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #242 on: August 30, 2017, 07:27:12 PM »
Quote
So I guess the answer is that it's not for me but for those who are committed to the idea that the Catholic Church is where they should be and aren't pathological about Latin, sure, it's functional.

My traditionalism isn't about Latin. I appreciate Latin's place in the church and the world historically (template and international language) and it's pretty (the mother of Italian and Spanish among others) but it's not my main reason; far from it. My view of tradition including liturgy is much like yours. I'm fine with the vernacular.

"You're those nuts who want to make everybody speak Latin!" is a slur.

Try the shoe on: "pathological about liturgical Greek" or "pathological about Slavonic" for the multitudes who use those languages in church. Not very nice, eh?

The Orthodox have explained they reserve the right to receive by baptism. Most in the United States don't. (An OCA priest told me the three main Orthodox groups in America, the Greeks, the Antiochians, and the OCA, have agreed not to.) And yes, former Greek Catholics are just about always received economically, often historically with no individual reception/sacrament.
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Offline Agabus

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #243 on: August 30, 2017, 09:48:04 PM »
Try the shoe on: "pathological about liturgical Greek" or "pathological about Slavonic" for the multitudes who use those languages in church. Not very nice, eh?

If the shoe fits.

The pathology I'm talking about is folks who somehow believe the Catholic Church is the One True Church™ but that the majority of its masses aren't "real."
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?
« Reply #244 on: August 30, 2017, 10:03:09 PM »
Try the shoe on: "pathological about liturgical Greek" or "pathological about Slavonic" for the multitudes who use those languages in church. Not very nice, eh?

If the shoe fits.

The pathology I'm talking about is folks who somehow believe the Catholic Church is the One True Church™ but that the majority of its masses aren't "real."

My shoot-from-the-hip answer is that's not really Catholic.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 10:03:31 PM by The young fogey »
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