Author Topic: icons again...  (Read 8757 times)

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Offline LBK

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2012, 08:30:33 PM »
Those who do not venerate Christ in His images will never do so when He appears in person.

Priceless! A pearl among the dross! Venerating icons is not about culture, it's about honoring God and affirming His Incarnation.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline вєликаго

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2012, 09:51:01 PM »
Quote from: Jason.Wike
Orthodoxy has made stuff necessary that really isn't and all the argument for it are bollocks.

Yeah, that wacky St. John of Damascus, writing his treatises for fun...  ::)

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/johndamascus-images.asp

Watch your mouth.

Thanks for sharing this. I hope the Original Poster takes the time to look at it.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2012, 10:08:29 PM »
Just be sure if you do venerate/kiss an icon of our savior, that you really mean it.   Otherwise.... Judas comes to mind.

I do not kiss or venerate icons (often) myself, but I absolutely hold respect for the saints, personages, angels, or our God they depict.   I struggle with this subject as well.  It's like I can't get my head around it.

If my own mind can't get around it, and I'm not all there, I refrain in fear of a deceiving veneration.

Interestingly, when I witnessed a weeping icon, I did venerate that in fullness.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 10:13:22 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2012, 10:36:21 PM »
Those who do not venerate Christ in His images will never do so when He appears in person.

This is non-sense and the kind of thing that makes it worse for me. Its a fallacy.

The real Image of Christ is in living people not planks of wood or some half baked theology of "windows to heaven" ripped off of some Hellenistic philosophy.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 10:36:40 PM by Jason.Wike »

Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2012, 10:39:36 PM »
Yep, it is a religious action formed by the culture it was in. I'm not really sure why that matters. Refusing to practice the faith because you don't like the culture it is expressed through would be phyletism.

Because pretending to be a Roman has nothing to do with being a Christian, yet it is not optional to believe in venerating icons or doing the act. Orthodoxy has made stuff necessary that really isn't and all the argument for it are bollocks.

But being a Roman does have to do with being a Christian because that is the historical reality. Trying to find the "pure" Christianity by divorcing the religion from all of the historical, political or cultural factors that has shaped it is naive and pointless. Unless you can demonstrate that icon veneration is contrary to some inherent Christian principle, there is no reason to not do it other than YOUR OWN cultural chauvinism.

I mean, if there was something inherently against icon veneration in American culture then some economy could be called for. And speaking as an American who goes to a 1/3rd American convert parish, there simply isn't. Judging by your new faith tag, this seems more of a front for your apostasy.

Apostasy? I'm a Christian, I'm just not buying this thing anymore. Also I was never baptized so I can't be called an 'apostate'.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 10:40:25 PM by Jason.Wike »

Offline biro

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2012, 10:47:04 PM »
Those who do not venerate Christ in His images will never do so when He appears in person.

This is non-sense and the kind of thing that makes it worse for me. Its a fallacy.

The real Image of Christ is in living people not planks of wood or some half baked theology of "windows to heaven" ripped off of some Hellenistic philosophy.

Uh-oh, here we go.

 ::)
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Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2012, 10:53:07 PM »
Those who do not venerate Christ in His images will never do so when He appears in person.

This is non-sense and the kind of thing that makes it worse for me. Its a fallacy.

The real Image of Christ is in living people not planks of wood or some half baked theology of "windows to heaven" ripped off of some Hellenistic philosophy.

Uh-oh, here we go.

 ::)

Well, want do you want when people keep making dictums that are logic fallacies like "If you won't do x, you won't do y" or "If you don't do x, you deny x?" They're non-sense but people keep spouting them like they are logical progressions of ideas and it does nothing but make me start to detest icons apart from the issue of venerating them.

Offline вєликаго

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2012, 11:05:03 PM »
Those who do not venerate Christ in His images will never do so when He appears in person.

This is non-sense and the kind of thing that makes it worse for me. Its a fallacy.

The real Image of Christ is in living people not planks of wood or some half baked theology of "windows to heaven" ripped off of some Hellenistic philosophy.

Uh-oh, here we go.

 ::)

Well, want do you want when people keep making dictums that are logic fallacies like "If you won't do x, you won't do y" or "If you don't do x, you deny x?" They're non-sense but people keep spouting them like they are logical progressions of ideas and it does nothing but make me start to detest icons apart from the issue of venerating them.

I can totally sympathize with you on this. All the same, I do think you seem to misunderstand ikons. I humble request you at least try and respect other peoples beliefs.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 11:06:13 PM by вєликаго »
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Offline HouseOfGod

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2012, 01:28:24 AM »
Those who do not venerate Christ in His images will never do so when He appears in person.

This is non-sense and the kind of thing that makes it worse for me. Its a fallacy.

The real Image of Christ is in living people not planks of wood or some half baked theology of "windows to heaven" ripped off of some Hellenistic philosophy.

Uh-oh, here we go.

 ::)

Well, want do you want when people keep making dictums that are logic fallacies like "If you won't do x, you won't do y" or "If you don't do x, you deny x?" They're non-sense but people keep spouting them like they are logical progressions of ideas and it does nothing but make me start to detest icons apart from the issue of venerating them.
Oh dear, I do hope this conversation is not the reason your signature indicates that you have left the forum. Lord, have mercy. I hope and pray that things get better for you, Jason.
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Offline genesisone

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2012, 08:44:26 AM »
Most people here in this thread don't seem to have a problem with the concept of respecting Christ and the Saints. They don't seem to have a problem with the existence of icons. Nor do I think any would blatantly disrespect an icon. My question to those who have a problem with the traditional Orthodox manner of showing honour to Christ and His Saints (i.e. bowing and kissing): what is your suggestion for showing honour and respect (in other words, veneration) in this situation?

Offline Schultz

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2012, 08:50:37 AM »
Yep, it is a religious action formed by the culture it was in. I'm not really sure why that matters. Refusing to practice the faith because you don't like the culture it is expressed through would be phyletism.

Because pretending to be a Roman has nothing to do with being a Christian, yet it is not optional to believe in venerating icons or doing the act. Orthodoxy has made stuff necessary that really isn't and all the argument for it are bollocks.

But being a Roman does have to do with being a Christian because that is the historical reality. Trying to find the "pure" Christianity by divorcing the religion from all of the historical, political or cultural factors that has shaped it is naive and pointless. Unless you can demonstrate that icon veneration is contrary to some inherent Christian principle, there is no reason to not do it other than YOUR OWN cultural chauvinism.

I mean, if there was something inherently against icon veneration in American culture then some economy could be called for. And speaking as an American who goes to a 1/3rd American convert parish, there simply isn't. Judging by your new faith tag, this seems more of a front for your apostasy.

Apostasy? I'm a Christian, I'm just not buying this thing anymore. Also I was never baptized so I can't be called an 'apostate'.

You can't really be called a Christian, either.
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Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2012, 02:44:49 PM »
Yep, it is a religious action formed by the culture it was in. I'm not really sure why that matters. Refusing to practice the faith because you don't like the culture it is expressed through would be phyletism.

Because pretending to be a Roman has nothing to do with being a Christian, yet it is not optional to believe in venerating icons or doing the act. Orthodoxy has made stuff necessary that really isn't and all the argument for it are bollocks.

But being a Roman does have to do with being a Christian because that is the historical reality. Trying to find the "pure" Christianity by divorcing the religion from all of the historical, political or cultural factors that has shaped it is naive and pointless. Unless you can demonstrate that icon veneration is contrary to some inherent Christian principle, there is no reason to not do it other than YOUR OWN cultural chauvinism.

I mean, if there was something inherently against icon veneration in American culture then some economy could be called for. And speaking as an American who goes to a 1/3rd American convert parish, there simply isn't. Judging by your new faith tag, this seems more of a front for your apostasy.

Apostasy? I'm a Christian, I'm just not buying this thing anymore. Also I was never baptized so I can't be called an 'apostate'.

You can't really be called a Christian, either.

I'm still getting responses in my inbox. Postponing baptism till no one knows when isn't Christian either.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2012, 03:25:19 PM »
Hey Jason,

Can you tell us which hellenistic philosophy is being ripped off with icon veneration, and where we can find some philosophical texts that refer to it?

Also, I thought you said it was a Roman practice. Is it just Roman, or is it Hellenistic? And you never addressed my posts on page 1.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 03:26:07 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline biro

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2012, 03:30:31 PM »
There were icons in the Jewish Temple. I'm pretty sure the Orthodox Jews of the time resisted Hellenization, so if anything was continued, it was Jewish practice. And since God told the Israelites to make the Ark of the Covenant and the Temple, I'm fine with it.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2012, 03:36:48 PM »
There were icons in the Jewish Temple. I'm pretty sure the Orthodox Jews of the time resisted Hellenization, so if anything was continued, it was Jewish practice. And since God told the Israelites to make the Ark of the Covenant and the Temple, I'm fine with it.
Hellenization is bad. Burn your astrolabes.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2012, 03:52:16 PM »
Those who do not venerate Christ in His images will never do so when He appears in person.

Priceless! A pearl among the dross! Venerating icons is not about culture, it's about honoring God and affirming His Incarnation.

Pithy sure (Shanghaiski's post, though I do enjoy yours as I like a mixed metaphor as much as the next guy). Accurate, absolutely not.

I know your fetish for icons but do you really believe that while not sufficient for salvation (or maybe your fetishism is so great that you could spin it that way), the veneration of an icon is a necessary condition for salvation? (To use the pallid, non-cryptic language of this board.)

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Offline orthonorm

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2012, 03:53:17 PM »
There were icons in the Jewish Temple. I'm pretty sure the Orthodox Jews of the time resisted Hellenization, so if anything was continued, it was Jewish practice. And since God told the Israelites to make the Ark of the Covenant and the Temple, I'm fine with it.
Hellenization is bad. Burn your astrolabes.

Another thing Greek it took Arabs to perfect.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2012, 04:29:18 PM »
There were icons in the Jewish Temple. I'm pretty sure the Orthodox Jews of the time resisted Hellenization, so if anything was continued, it was Jewish practice. And since God told the Israelites to make the Ark of the Covenant and the Temple, I'm fine with it.
Hellenization is bad. Burn your astrolabes.

Another thing Greek it took Arabs to perfect.
With the help of Alexandrian Hellenized Jews:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:British_Museum_Hebrew_astrolabe.jpg
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2012, 04:37:01 PM »
There were icons in the Jewish Temple. I'm pretty sure the Orthodox Jews of the time resisted Hellenization, so if anything was continued, it was Jewish practice. And since God told the Israelites to make the Ark of the Covenant and the Temple, I'm fine with it.
Hellenization is bad. Burn your astrolabes.

Another thing Greek it took Arabs to perfect.
With the help of Alexandrian Hellenized Jews:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:British_Museum_Hebrew_astrolabe.jpg

Zionist propaganda.

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2012, 08:08:59 PM »
Hey Jason,

Can you tell us which hellenistic philosophy is being ripped off with icon veneration, and where we can find some philosophical texts that refer to it?

Also, I thought you said it was a Roman practice. Is it just Roman, or is it Hellenistic? And you never addressed my posts on page 1.

He wouldn't answer my much simpler and twice-iterated question, so I shall wish you good luck with this endeavour, sir.
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Offline Tgebar

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2012, 10:50:51 PM »
Sometimes putting away the old man means doing or accepting something that you cannot reconcile rationally, emotionally, or physically. We can't measure the validity of everything by how well it jives with our constructed personas.
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2012, 09:04:35 AM »
Sometimes putting away the old man means doing or accepting something that you cannot reconcile rationally, emotionally, or physically. We can't measure the validity of everything by how well it jives with our constructed personas.

Or with our preconceived ideas, pet theories and personal biases.

Well said.
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Offline mike

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2012, 11:54:48 AM »
Just be sure if you do venerate/kiss an icon of our savior, that you really mean it.   Otherwise.... Judas comes to mind.

I do not kiss or venerate icons (often) myself, but I absolutely hold respect for the saints, personages, angels, or our God they depict.   I struggle with this subject as well.  It's like I can't get my head around it.

If my own mind can't get around it, and I'm not all there, I refrain in fear of a deceiving veneration.

Interestingly, when I witnessed a weeping icon, I did venerate that in fullness.

So you venerated the magic around the icon, not the icon itself...
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Offline HouseOfGod

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2012, 11:58:43 AM »
Just be sure if you do venerate/kiss an icon of our savior, that you really mean it.   Otherwise.... Judas comes to mind.

I do not kiss or venerate icons (often) myself, but I absolutely hold respect for the saints, personages, angels, or our God they depict.   I struggle with this subject as well.  It's like I can't get my head around it.

If my own mind can't get around it, and I'm not all there, I refrain in fear of a deceiving veneration.

Interestingly, when I witnessed a weeping icon, I did venerate that in fullness.

So you venerated the magic around the icon, not the icon itself...
I'd second that point :)
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Offline augustin717

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2012, 12:29:01 PM »
Why does the command against graven images say not to make idols of things "in the waters below"?

Because Almighty God in his great wisdom knew that one day American Evangelicals would plaster tacky Jesus Fishes all over their cars.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #70 on: July 07, 2012, 11:18:17 PM »
Those who do not venerate Christ in His images will never do so when He appears in person.

This is non-sense and the kind of thing that makes it worse for me. Its a fallacy.

The real Image of Christ is in living people not planks of wood or some half baked theology of "windows to heaven" ripped off of some Hellenistic philosophy.
you wouldn't mind quoting that Hellenistic philosophy on that, would you?  (a trick question.  I know you can't).

So, you won't give Christ the honor He gave to Caesar?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 11:18:44 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #71 on: July 07, 2012, 11:19:30 PM »
Yep, it is a religious action formed by the culture it was in. I'm not really sure why that matters. Refusing to practice the faith because you don't like the culture it is expressed through would be phyletism.

Because pretending to be a Roman has nothing to do with being a Christian, yet it is not optional to believe in venerating icons or doing the act. Orthodoxy has made stuff necessary that really isn't and all the argument for it are bollocks.

But being a Roman does have to do with being a Christian because that is the historical reality. Trying to find the "pure" Christianity by divorcing the religion from all of the historical, political or cultural factors that has shaped it is naive and pointless. Unless you can demonstrate that icon veneration is contrary to some inherent Christian principle, there is no reason to not do it other than YOUR OWN cultural chauvinism.

I mean, if there was something inherently against icon veneration in American culture then some economy could be called for. And speaking as an American who goes to a 1/3rd American convert parish, there simply isn't. Judging by your new faith tag, this seems more of a front for your apostasy.

Apostasy? I'm a Christian, I'm just not buying this thing anymore. Also I was never baptized so I can't be called an 'apostate'.
If you were never baptized, you can't even claim to be Christian.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #72 on: July 07, 2012, 11:36:32 PM »
Venerating icons is just way too foreign for me and I can't do it anymore. I've been trying to go to church now that I have a lighter schedule but it just stops me from going. I know people will dismiss this as "Protestant" influence but no, its not, I wasn't raised a Protestant and I can count the number of times I've been in a Protestant church on my hands. Its just foreign to me as a human. I've never kissed a picture of a family member or any of the other bizarre examples people give (sorry if you do that all the time, but the vast majority of people don't). And nothing I've seen in defense of this has convinced me it is important to venerate them.

Probably everything I've seen for it was from Romans that say things that are not applicable to modern people, and which come from human reasoning such as "Everyone gives honor to images of the Emperors" which don't apply today, and also introduce practices by way of reasoning rather than actually being Christ's instruction handed down.

The Christians that were outside Imperial influence like the Assyrians don't do it, and the claim that it is because Muslims stopped them is non-sense as their Catholic, OO and EO neighbors were not stopped. In other places like the British Isles the only icons that ever existed were in a few priceless manuscripts that certainly no one venerated, and they got along just fine. Its just Roman, and in the end it is foreign to me and I can't do it anymore.
The Syriac Orthodox and the Antiochian Orthodox, living side by side with the Nestorians, outside the Empire of the Romans, did and do. And yes, they were stopped by the Muslims, or rather, the Muslims tried to stop it.  St. John of Damascus, the great defender on the Holy Images, lived his entire life in the caliphate, and was persecuted for defending the icons.

And all of the New Testament was from the world of the Romans.  So you are out of luck, render unto Caesar and all.

And the Nestorians used to venerate them, as can be shown by their own records.  Further, the Nestorians still venerate the Cross.
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Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #73 on: July 08, 2012, 12:17:21 AM »
Yep, it is a religious action formed by the culture it was in. I'm not really sure why that matters. Refusing to practice the faith because you don't like the culture it is expressed through would be phyletism.

Because pretending to be a Roman has nothing to do with being a Christian, yet it is not optional to believe in venerating icons or doing the act. Orthodoxy has made stuff necessary that really isn't and all the argument for it are bollocks.

But being a Roman does have to do with being a Christian because that is the historical reality. Trying to find the "pure" Christianity by divorcing the religion from all of the historical, political or cultural factors that has shaped it is naive and pointless. Unless you can demonstrate that icon veneration is contrary to some inherent Christian principle, there is no reason to not do it other than YOUR OWN cultural chauvinism.

I mean, if there was something inherently against icon veneration in American culture then some economy could be called for. And speaking as an American who goes to a 1/3rd American convert parish, there simply isn't. Judging by your new faith tag, this seems more of a front for your apostasy.

Apostasy? I'm a Christian, I'm just not buying this thing anymore. Also I was never baptized so I can't be called an 'apostate'.
If you were never baptized, you can't even claim to be Christian.

Sorry, you and the other poster that have decided I'm not Christian are wrong. If someone desires to be baptized and are kept from it, they are counted as Christian according to all the church fathers. You can't undo my faith by decree. You really think you can say all the non-stop prayer I have made to god for years is meaningless and I am not Christian - I'm never stepping back in an Orthodox church again, it is the church of hell. That's my nice response.
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« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 12:18:02 AM by Jason.Wike »

Offline William

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #74 on: July 08, 2012, 12:19:29 AM »
Yep, it is a religious action formed by the culture it was in. I'm not really sure why that matters. Refusing to practice the faith because you don't like the culture it is expressed through would be phyletism.

Because pretending to be a Roman has nothing to do with being a Christian, yet it is not optional to believe in venerating icons or doing the act. Orthodoxy has made stuff necessary that really isn't and all the argument for it are bollocks.

But being a Roman does have to do with being a Christian because that is the historical reality. Trying to find the "pure" Christianity by divorcing the religion from all of the historical, political or cultural factors that has shaped it is naive and pointless. Unless you can demonstrate that icon veneration is contrary to some inherent Christian principle, there is no reason to not do it other than YOUR OWN cultural chauvinism.

I mean, if there was something inherently against icon veneration in American culture then some economy could be called for. And speaking as an American who goes to a 1/3rd American convert parish, there simply isn't. Judging by your new faith tag, this seems more of a front for your apostasy.

Apostasy? I'm a Christian, I'm just not buying this thing anymore. Also I was never baptized so I can't be called an 'apostate'.
If you were never baptized, you can't even claim to be Christian.

Sorry, you and the other poster that have decided I'm not Christian are wrong. If someone desires to be baptized and are kept from it, they are counted as Christian according to all the church fathers. You can't undo my faith by decree. You really think you can say all the non-stop prayer I have made to god for years is meaningless and I am not Christian - I'm never stepping back in an Orthodox church again, it is the church of hell. That's my nice response.

Anyone who would say that is definitely not a Christian.
Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #75 on: July 08, 2012, 12:40:16 AM »
Sorry, you and the other poster that have decided I'm not Christian are wrong. If someone desires to be baptized and are kept from it, they are counted as Christian according to all the church fathers. You can't undo my faith by decree. You really think you can say all the non-stop prayer I have made to god for years is meaningless and I am not Christian - I'm never stepping back in an Orthodox church again, it is the church of hell. That's my nice response.

How can you be Christian without baptism?  Maybe I missed it somewhere?  And why the gall towards the Orthodox Church?  How have you been offended by the Church?

Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #76 on: July 08, 2012, 12:53:32 AM »
Sorry, you and the other poster that have decided I'm not Christian are wrong. If someone desires to be baptized and are kept from it, they are counted as Christian according to all the church fathers. You can't undo my faith by decree. You really think you can say all the non-stop prayer I have made to god for years is meaningless and I am not Christian - I'm never stepping back in an Orthodox church again, it is the church of hell. That's my nice response.

How can you be Christian without baptism?  Maybe I missed it somewhere?  And why the gall towards the Orthodox Church?  How have you been offended by the Church?

Are catechumens and those desiring baptism not Christian? And the gall is because of the idea you guys have that you can declare someone not Christian because they're not baptised, and basically saying their entire life and soul is a sham, - especially when the Orthodox church puts zero urgency on actually baptizing people.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 12:54:19 AM by Jason.Wike »

Offline orthonorm

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #77 on: July 08, 2012, 12:59:40 AM »
Sorry, you and the other poster that have decided I'm not Christian are wrong. If someone desires to be baptized and are kept from it, they are counted as Christian according to all the church fathers. You can't undo my faith by decree. You really think you can say all the non-stop prayer I have made to god for years is meaningless and I am not Christian - I'm never stepping back in an Orthodox church again, it is the church of hell. That's my nice response.

How can you be Christian without baptism?  Maybe I missed it somewhere?  And why the gall towards the Orthodox Church?  How have you been offended by the Church?

I dunno about the Church but I could see how he could take offense by some of idiotic comments in this thread and others.

Jason, ask yourself sincerely, if threads like these have painted your view of the OC, if so, quit reading this place for a while. The piety and stupidity around here will kill nearly anyone.

Best of luck Jason.  

Offline SolEX01

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #78 on: July 08, 2012, 01:02:39 AM »
Sorry, you and the other poster that have decided I'm not Christian are wrong. If someone desires to be baptized and are kept from it, they are counted as Christian according to all the church fathers. You can't undo my faith by decree. You really think you can say all the non-stop prayer I have made to god for years is meaningless and I am not Christian - I'm never stepping back in an Orthodox church again, it is the church of hell. That's my nice response.

How can you be Christian without baptism?  Maybe I missed it somewhere?  And why the gall towards the Orthodox Church?  How have you been offended by the Church?

Are catechumens and those desiring baptism not Christian?

An appropriate analogy: If I go to college and drop out, can I call myself college educated?  I don't have a diploma.

And the gall is because of the idea you guys have that you can declare someone not Christian because they're not baptised,

If I became a cathechumen, I expect to be baptized.  If I stop being a cathechumen, I stop the path to baptism and return to the state I was before becoming a cathecumen.  I can't call myself a Christian until I've buried my old self and renewed myself through Baptism, Chrismation and Communion.

and basically saying their entire life and soul is a sham,

Your life and soul are not shams.  You're being hard on yourself.

- especially when the Orthodox church puts zero urgency on actually baptizing people.

Baptism is a serious thing and the Church wants to make sure that cathecumens are properly prepared.  Another analogy: I buy a car; I don't receive the cleaned and prepped car until the financing has been approved and the car has been paid for.

The analogies have their focus on preparation which is what being a cathecumen is about.  I don't know if icons are what caused you to stop being a cathecumen; keep in mind that veneration of icons is a fundamental tenet of the Orthodox Church.  Other Christian denominations do not use icons or deemphasize them.  I don't know what others have said on this forum; do not let this forum inoculate you from Christ.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 01:06:10 AM by SolEX01 »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #79 on: July 08, 2012, 01:39:10 AM »
Yep, it is a religious action formed by the culture it was in. I'm not really sure why that matters. Refusing to practice the faith because you don't like the culture it is expressed through would be phyletism.

Because pretending to be a Roman has nothing to do with being a Christian, yet it is not optional to believe in venerating icons or doing the act. Orthodoxy has made stuff necessary that really isn't and all the argument for it are bollocks.

But being a Roman does have to do with being a Christian because that is the historical reality. Trying to find the "pure" Christianity by divorcing the religion from all of the historical, political or cultural factors that has shaped it is naive and pointless. Unless you can demonstrate that icon veneration is contrary to some inherent Christian principle, there is no reason to not do it other than YOUR OWN cultural chauvinism.

I mean, if there was something inherently against icon veneration in American culture then some economy could be called for. And speaking as an American who goes to a 1/3rd American convert parish, there simply isn't. Judging by your new faith tag, this seems more of a front for your apostasy.

Apostasy? I'm a Christian, I'm just not buying this thing anymore. Also I was never baptized so I can't be called an 'apostate'.
If you were never baptized, you can't even claim to be Christian.

Sorry, you and the other poster that have decided I'm not Christian are wrong.

You are not in the Church-or for that matter, any Church-and hence have no say in the matter. You can claim you are Napoleon for what it matters.

If someone desires to be baptized and are kept from it, they are counted as Christian according to all the church fathers.
but, as you make clear, that is not your situation.

You can't undo my faith by decree.
nothing evidently to undo.

You really think you can say all the non-stop prayer I have made to god for years is meaningless and I am not Christian - I'm never stepping back in an Orthodox church again, it is the church of hell. That's my nice response.
nicely proving that your non-stop prayer was meaningless.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #80 on: July 08, 2012, 01:41:08 AM »
Sorry, you and the other poster that have decided I'm not Christian are wrong. If someone desires to be baptized and are kept from it, they are counted as Christian according to all the church fathers. You can't undo my faith by decree. You really think you can say all the non-stop prayer I have made to god for years is meaningless and I am not Christian - I'm never stepping back in an Orthodox church again, it is the church of hell. That's my nice response.

How can you be Christian without baptism?  Maybe I missed it somewhere?  And why the gall towards the Orthodox Church?  How have you been offended by the Church?

Are catechumens and those desiring baptism not Christian? And the gall is because of the idea you guys have that you can declare someone not Christian because they're not baptised, and basically saying their entire life and soul is a sham, - especially when the Orthodox church puts zero urgency on actually baptizing people.
Don't know what you are talking about: three months wait for my sons' baptism was a long one.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #81 on: July 08, 2012, 01:59:04 AM »
Let's see: I went to church semi-regularly for two years as a catechumen. I started missing church with economia a year ago because of school and a new job that I desperately needed to do. After the first month baptism, or any catechism or anything at all was never mentioned again. Its great that your son was baptized.

Quote
but, as you make clear, that is not your situation.

How? I still desire baptism, I just don't believe the things you guys believe is actually Christianity.

As for my invective it is no more than what your Saints and you yourselves say about churches you claim are false. So if that makes me not Christian you guys are SOL hypocrites.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #82 on: July 08, 2012, 03:57:12 PM »
Let's see: I went to church semi-regularly for two years as a catechumen. I started missing church with economia a year ago because of school and a new job that I desperately needed to do. After the first month baptism, or any catechism or anything at all was never mentioned again.

Did you fall off the face of the earth (or to put it in better terms, lose contact with your church?  your Priest?)?

How? I still desire baptism, I just don't believe the things you guys believe is actually Christianity.

Reciting the Nicene Creed as a piece of literature is one thing; you have to recite the Nicene Creed at Baptism on the path to becoming a Christian.

As for my invective it is no more than what your Saints and you yourselves say about churches you claim are false. So if that makes me not Christian you guys are SOL hypocrites.

May God Bless You.

Offline mike

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Re: icons again...
« Reply #83 on: July 08, 2012, 05:05:15 PM »
Thread locked indefinitely.
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