Author Topic: The Dismissal of Catechumens  (Read 12094 times)

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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: The Dismissal of Catechumens
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2017, 01:06:11 PM »
Why wouldnt they?

Holy things are for the holy.

If you're still around by that point, you can stay.

Technically, no...they should also leave.  However, in modern times things have become more lax out of economia for mixed marriages and the heterdox society in which we reside.

and because no one is going to join a church that they can't actually see what happens....like some secret society.

Of course, this logic could be extended to allow for services "facing the people", open communion, etc., and yet we draw a line at certain things, so I wonder why this particular line was more or less erased.


No clue....maybe its the mormons and their secret underwear or some such.....or its just us nasty americans again
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Dismissal of Catechumens
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2017, 01:30:12 PM »
I don't know, but I've been told that these questions simply became irrelevant as whole regions were Christianized.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Dismissal of Catechumens
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2017, 01:33:27 PM »
Why wouldnt they?

Holy things are for the holy.

If you're still around by that point, you can stay.

Technically, no...they should also leave.  However, in modern times things have become more lax out of economia for mixed marriages and the heterdox society in which we reside.

and because no one is going to join a church that they can't actually see what happens....like some secret society.

Of course, this logic could be extended to allow for services "facing the people", open communion, etc., and yet we draw a line at certain things, so I wonder why this particular line was more or less erased.


No clue....maybe its the mormons and their secret underwear or some such.....or its just us nasty americans again

Interestingly, Mormons don't seem to have a huge problem attracting people to join their religion, even though a number of their religious practices are closed off to non-Mormons, while other more "open" denominations are dying.   

I suspect that we have allowed non-Orthodox to be present for the Eucharist rather passively.  As the Church progressed from being one institution among others to the religion of the majority, there were less "non-Orthodox" to exclude, and the tradition was forgotten except perhaps as a ritual injunction by deacons.  Now that we're more or less back to being one institution among others, we are in a situation where we probably should think about re-instituting this practice (and perhaps some others as well), but have centuries of inertia to contend with. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: The Dismissal of Catechumens
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2017, 01:39:09 PM »
Why wouldnt they?

Holy things are for the holy.

If you're still around by that point, you can stay.

Technically, no...they should also leave.  However, in modern times things have become more lax out of economia for mixed marriages and the heterdox society in which we reside.

and because no one is going to join a church that they can't actually see what happens....like some secret society.

Of course, this logic could be extended to allow for services "facing the people", open communion, etc., and yet we draw a line at certain things, so I wonder why this particular line was more or less erased.


No clue....maybe its the mormons and their secret underwear or some such.....or its just us nasty americans again

Interestingly, Mormons don't seem to have a huge problem attracting people to join their religion, even though a number of their religious practices are closed off to non-Mormons, while other more "open" denominations are dying.   

I suspect that we have allowed non-Orthodox to be present for the Eucharist rather passively.  As the Church progressed from being one institution among others to the religion of the majority, there were less "non-Orthodox" to exclude, and the tradition was forgotten except perhaps as a ritual injunction by deacons.  Now that we're more or less back to being one institution among others, we are in a situation where we probably should think about re-instituting this practice (and perhaps some others as well), but have centuries of inertia to contend with.

....I agree with Mor.

However, many of the previous "secrecy" was due to Christians being persecuted, and the requirement to pray in secret, with only those you "know" belong to the group and will not betray it.  The Eucharist needed to be protected... However, in the US we thankfully no longer suffer such persecution....and therefore, have permitted others to remain, as they pose no real threat.

....that's just a guess.
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Offline Father H

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Re: The Dismissal of Catechumens
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2017, 01:37:43 AM »
Why wouldnt they?

Holy things are for the holy.

If you're still around by that point, you can stay.

Technically, no...they should also leave.  However, in modern times things have become more lax out of economia for mixed marriages and the heterdox society in which we reside.

and because no one is going to join a church that they can't actually see what happens....like some secret society.

Of course, this logic could be extended to allow for services "facing the people", open communion, etc., and yet we draw a line at certain things, so I wonder why this particular line was more or less erased.


No clue....maybe its the mormons and their secret underwear or some such.....or its just us nasty americans again

Interestingly, Mormons don't seem to have a huge problem attracting people to join their religion, even though a number of their religious practices are closed off to non-Mormons, while other more "open" denominations are dying.   

I suspect that we have allowed non-Orthodox to be present for the Eucharist rather passively.  As the Church progressed from being one institution among others to the religion of the majority, there were less "non-Orthodox" to exclude, and the tradition was forgotten except perhaps as a ritual injunction by deacons.  Now that we're more or less back to being one institution among others, we are in a situation where we probably should think about re-instituting this practice (and perhaps some others as well), but have centuries of inertia to contend with.

....I agree with Mor.

However, many of the previous "secrecy" was due to Christians being persecuted, and the requirement to pray in secret, with only those you "know" belong to the group and will not betray it.  The Eucharist needed to be protected... However, in the US we thankfully no longer suffer such persecution....and therefore, have permitted others to remain, as they pose no real threat.

....that's just a guess.

A pretty educated guess if I ever heard one.  That is exactly it, Liza.  They were accusing us of cannibalism and other such things.  They had to be dismissed, because there were fakers among the real ones who would tank the Church in an instance.  They had to be tested.   Today, not so much.  However, I am now more suspect than ever of those who would sell us out with false morality under the auspices of "neo-patristics".  So I agree with you on one front, and I agree with Mor on another.   
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 01:40:16 AM by Father H »

Offline smithakd

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Re: The Dismissal of Catechumens
« Reply #50 on: January 01, 2018, 08:04:10 PM »
At St. Andrew's in Riverside, CA (Fr. Josiah Trenham's parish), catechumens are dismissed.

Quote
•Present yourself for the Catechumen Litany in the weekly Sunday service and follow the Catechist out of the temple to receive weekly instruction.

http://www.saintandrew.net/catechumens.html

I wonder if visitors stay?

TLDR: In a speech I heard him deliver, Fr Josiah said, essentially, that visitors and guests weren't required to leave.

"Q14: So, with the catechumens that leave at the portion of the Liturgy… How about the people who are non-Orthodox? Do you ask them to leave as well?
"Fr. Josiah: That should be done, according to the principles of how we use our worship space, but in order to that… Well, first you would need really talented, sensitive ushers, which… I have a lot of great ushers, great people, but they are not anywhere near good enough to pull that off. So we just let them be. We just let them be, and it doesn’t usually go on for very long, because they’re either one-time visitors, or then they’re visitors who want to become instructed, and one of the first things they learn is that if they’re not Orthodox they should stay in the narthex."
For the full presentation: http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/thearena/making_your_church_a_catechetical_power_house
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