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Author Topic: Orthodoxy in China & the Chinese Autonomous Orthodox Church  (Read 1530 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 17, 2011, 08:56:18 AM »

A really good overview of the history of Orthodoxy in China - the Russian missions, Russian missionary evangelism to the Chinese, the embracing of orthodoxy by Chinese, and the current situation in Communist China.

Quote
Until recently the Russian Orthodox Church has remained the only Local Church preaching Orthodoxy in China for the last few centuries. However today it is necessary to speak of the recently created Ecumenical Patriarchate in the territories in Hong Kong and Taiwan. According to the law of succession it is the Russian Orthodox Church that holds the responsibility for the destiny of Orthodoxy in China. At the same time it is important to note the attempts undertaken by the Constantinople Patriarchate to dispute this right of succession and the principles of canonical existence of the Church in China as laid down by the Russian Orthodox Church.
  Taken from the article Orthodox Christianity in the People's republic of China by Archpriest Dionisiy Pozdnaev.
http://hermitage-journal.blogspot.com/2011/07/on-situation-of-orthodox-church-in.html
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« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2011, 09:00:12 AM »

A really good overview of the history of Orthodoxy in China - the Russian missions, Russian missionary evangelism to the Chinese, the embracing of orthodoxy by Chinese, and the current situation in Communist China.

Quote
Until recently the Russian Orthodox Church has remained the only Local Church preaching Orthodoxy in China for the last few centuries. However today it is necessary to speak of the recently created Ecumenical Patriarchate in the territories in Hong Kong and Taiwan. According to the law of succession it is the Russian Orthodox Church that holds the responsibility for the destiny of Orthodoxy in China. At the same time it is important to note the attempts undertaken by the Constantinople Patriarchate to dispute this right of succession and the principles of canonical existence of the Church in China as laid down by the Russian Orthodox Church.
  Taken from the article Orthodox Christianity in the People's republic of China by Archpriest Dionisiy Pozdnaev.
http://hermitage-journal.blogspot.com/2011/07/on-situation-of-orthodox-church-in.html
how about a trial by ordeal: whoever can convert China the fastest, everybody wins.
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« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2011, 09:23:54 AM »

A really good overview of the history of Orthodoxy in China - the Russian missions, Russian missionary evangelism to the Chinese, the embracing of orthodoxy by Chinese, and the current situation in Communist China.

Quote
Until recently the Russian Orthodox Church has remained the only Local Church preaching Orthodoxy in China for the last few centuries. However today it is necessary to speak of the recently created Ecumenical Patriarchate in the territories in Hong Kong and Taiwan. According to the law of succession it is the Russian Orthodox Church that holds the responsibility for the destiny of Orthodoxy in China. At the same time it is important to note the attempts undertaken by the Constantinople Patriarchate to dispute this right of succession and the principles of canonical existence of the Church in China as laid down by the Russian Orthodox Church.
  Taken from the article Orthodox Christianity in the People's republic of China by Archpriest Dionisiy Pozdnaev.
http://hermitage-journal.blogspot.com/2011/07/on-situation-of-orthodox-church-in.html
how about a trial by ordeal: whoever can convert China the fastest, everybody wins.
A convert is a convert is a convert - so I guess it doesn't matter where they come from. China is at this stage to my knowledge using the Church Calendar, not the New. I hope the EP in Hong Kong will honour that in Mainland China. Given that Moscow has 15,000 souls in Turkey compared to between 500-800 Constantinople Patriarchate, does the same apply?
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« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2011, 10:46:49 AM »

A really good overview of the history of Orthodoxy in China - the Russian missions, Russian missionary evangelism to the Chinese, the embracing of orthodoxy by Chinese, and the current situation in Communist China.

Quote
Until recently the Russian Orthodox Church has remained the only Local Church preaching Orthodoxy in China for the last few centuries. However today it is necessary to speak of the recently created Ecumenical Patriarchate in the territories in Hong Kong and Taiwan. According to the law of succession it is the Russian Orthodox Church that holds the responsibility for the destiny of Orthodoxy in China. At the same time it is important to note the attempts undertaken by the Constantinople Patriarchate to dispute this right of succession and the principles of canonical existence of the Church in China as laid down by the Russian Orthodox Church.
  Taken from the article Orthodox Christianity in the People's republic of China by Archpriest Dionisiy Pozdnaev.
http://hermitage-journal.blogspot.com/2011/07/on-situation-of-orthodox-church-in.html
how about a trial by ordeal: whoever can convert China the fastest, everybody wins.
A convert is a convert is a convert - so I guess it doesn't matter where they come from. China is at this stage to my knowledge using the Church Calendar, not the New.

The New Calendar is the Church calendar. And they don't use the Old Calendar in China. Not since 1929.
I hope the EP in Hong Kong will honour that in Mainland China. Given that Moscow has 15,000 souls in Turkey compared to between 500-800 Constantinople Patriarchate, does the same apply?
No. There may be 15,000 Russians in Turkey, but they belong to the Constantinople Patriarchate.
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« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2011, 10:54:59 AM »

A really good overview of the history of Orthodoxy in China - the Russian missions, Russian missionary evangelism to the Chinese, the embracing of orthodoxy by Chinese, and the current situation in Communist China.

Quote
Until recently the Russian Orthodox Church has remained the only Local Church preaching Orthodoxy in China for the last few centuries. However today it is necessary to speak of the recently created Ecumenical Patriarchate in the territories in Hong Kong and Taiwan. According to the law of succession it is the Russian Orthodox Church that holds the responsibility for the destiny of Orthodoxy in China. At the same time it is important to note the attempts undertaken by the Constantinople Patriarchate to dispute this right of succession and the principles of canonical existence of the Church in China as laid down by the Russian Orthodox Church.
  Taken from the article Orthodox Christianity in the People's republic of China by Archpriest Dionisiy Pozdnaev.
http://hermitage-journal.blogspot.com/2011/07/on-situation-of-orthodox-church-in.html
how about a trial by ordeal: whoever can convert China the fastest, everybody wins.
A convert is a convert is a convert - so I guess it doesn't matter where they come from. China is at this stage to my knowledge using the Church Calendar, not the New. I hope the EP in Hong Kong will honour that in Mainland China.
I somehow think the Calendar Issue is not the most important problem the Chinese Orthodox face today.
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« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2011, 10:58:17 AM »

A really good overview of the history of Orthodoxy in China - the Russian missions, Russian missionary evangelism to the Chinese, the embracing of orthodoxy by Chinese, and the current situation in Communist China.

Quote
Until recently the Russian Orthodox Church has remained the only Local Church preaching Orthodoxy in China for the last few centuries. However today it is necessary to speak of the recently created Ecumenical Patriarchate in the territories in Hong Kong and Taiwan. According to the law of succession it is the Russian Orthodox Church that holds the responsibility for the destiny of Orthodoxy in China. At the same time it is important to note the attempts undertaken by the Constantinople Patriarchate to dispute this right of succession and the principles of canonical existence of the Church in China as laid down by the Russian Orthodox Church.
  Taken from the article Orthodox Christianity in the People's republic of China by Archpriest Dionisiy Pozdnaev.
http://hermitage-journal.blogspot.com/2011/07/on-situation-of-orthodox-church-in.html
how about a trial by ordeal: whoever can convert China the fastest, everybody wins.
A convert is a convert is a convert - so I guess it doesn't matter where they come from. China is at this stage to my knowledge using the Church Calendar, not the New. I hope the EP in Hong Kong will honour that in Mainland China.
I somehow think the Calendar Issue is not the most important problem the Chinese Orthodox face today.
Correct. Is it for anyone?
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« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2011, 11:41:38 AM »

According to the law of succession it is the Russian Orthodox Church that holds the responsibility for the destiny of Orthodoxy in China.

And having mostly given up on evangelizing the Chinese, and allowing only foreign passport holders to visit their parish in Beijing, the Russian Church is hardly carrying out that responsibility.
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« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2011, 05:34:41 PM »

At this point, I don't honestly think it matters if the Russian Church was first in China.  I mean, compare it to someone building a house on a patch of land far off from society.  Then, some of the insane village dwellers come and burn it to the ground.  The man who built it leaves.  Decades later, he returns to find someone else building a house there.  Does he really have any claim to the spot, anymore?

But, more to the point, the Chinese Orthodox Church is no more.  Where once there were several dioceses, there are now only (if even) several parishes.  The Russian Church should not care so terribly much about claims as it does about souls.  If the Russian Church is unwilling or unable to spread the Gospel in China, then other Churches have an obligation to step up and take its place.  Besides, China is certainly large enough that there is no reason the Russians can't be the only Church in part of it, and Greeks the only Church in another part.

This reminds me somewhat of the people who claim that because Russia was the first Church in Alaska, or in San Francisco, that somehow it then gained jurisdiction over the entire country from coast to coast.
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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2011, 05:45:06 PM »

According to the law of succession it is the Russian Orthodox Church that holds the responsibility for the destiny of Orthodoxy in China.

And having mostly given up on evangelizing the Chinese, and allowing only foreign passport holders to visit their parish in Beijing, the Russian Church is hardly carrying out that responsibility.

The Parish of the Dormition in Beijing has its physical church building in the only place it is allowed to be: inside the Russian Embassy, and thus on Russian soil. The Chinese cannot visit because their travel to foreign soil is restricted; in addition any religious service led by a foreigner is not allowed to be attended by a Chinese citizen. The priest who ministers the Dormition parish most of the time is Russian (the aforementioned Archpriest Dionisiy) and so Chinese cannot attend..... openly.

Pray for the Orthodox in China, because they are there, but don't worry about them being abandoned by the Russian Orthodox Church. They're not. It's just - for the sake of all Orthodox in that country, native or not - such ministering is not shouted from the rooftops. And I think it's best if I leave it at that for a public forum.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2011, 05:45:22 PM by J.M.C » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2011, 06:07:15 PM »

At this point, I don't honestly think it matters if the Russian Church was first in China.  I mean, compare it to someone building a house on a patch of land far off from society.  Then, some of the insane village dwellers come and burn it to the ground.  The man who built it leaves.  Decades later, he returns to find someone else building a house there.  Does he really have any claim to the spot, anymore?
To make your analogy fit, you would have to have some of the man's children living among the ruins.

But, more to the point, the Chinese Orthodox Church is no more.
 
Really?
Setting aside the ideologies of the "Constantinopolitan" vs. the "Russian" positions on the subject, there are some other practical things to consider:

1.  Missions to regions that border established autocephalous churches.  In terms of pragmatics, both the Russian and Constantinopolitan positions have equal possibility of being effective provided the nation being missionized only borders one Orthodox autocephalous territory.

Father, what do you take as the Constantinopolitan position? as the position the Phanar has been promoting takes no notice of proximity to an established autocephalous Church-Constantinople in it "Pontus, Asia and Thrace" being surrounded by established autocephalous Churches-and sees no problem in claiming jurisdiction on the other side of the globe in lands no mission of hers has ever reached.

But even here there are potential problems that would require the primus to become involved.
what's a "primus"?

Although Japan could be viewed as a success, the "Russian mission" to China, for example, is de facto a failed mission.

De facto, it is success, despite the problems from the Boxer Rebellion to the Cultural Revolution.  St. John Maximovich got his Chinese flock to CA, Fr. Ambrose IIRC has shared having Chinese Orthoodox in New Zealand, and I met a Chinese Orthodox family living in Australia, on pilgrimage in Jerusalem.

A few ethnic temples in a nation of 1.3 billion people is a failure.


The Vatican has been at it longer there than us, and the highest number I have seen for its adherents there is 14 million (1%). Is that a roaring success?

Does Russia, because it established a few non-native temples over several centuries claim forever jurisdiction over China?
 
Define non-native.  China does have a Russian minority of  over three centuries, the Albanzinians, who intermarried and ceased to speak Russian centuries ago, but remained Orthodox, gaining a clause in the Treaty of Kyakhta (1727) guarenteeing the priests they were receiving from 1713. .  The Evenks, a Tungusic people related to the Manchus, have an autonomous area and a population of a 30,000 or so in China, and are nominally at least Orthodox, like their cousins in the Russia. Their autonomous place is no. 12 here:


And their are congregatios of Han who still gather in the major cities at least, including Peking, and throughout the Northeast, West and South of the country, although the Orthodox Church has no official recognition and is therefore officiallly illegal.  Two temples in Shanghai are in the process of being returned to the Church, as others elsewhere.
Quote
In Shanghai there were Nativity celebrations
 
On January 7, 2010, a solemn liturgy was held for the feast of the Nativity of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, with the approval of Chinese authorities in the church of St. Nicholas in Shanghai (China). During the worship service, which was celebrated by Archpriest Alexis Kiselevich, there were about a hundred Orthodox Christians from different countries praying; of which about 40 people partook of Holy Communion

During the Nativity season, Archpriest Alexis Kiselevich visited resident retired priest Michael Wang Quansheng in Shanghai, of the Chinese Autonomous Orthodox Church and congratulated him with the blessed Nativity of Christ. Among the Christmas gifts Archpriest Alexis presented to Father Michael (published by the Department for External Church Relations of Moscow Patriarchate) was the book "Orthodoxy in China", the issue of which was timed to coincide with the 325th anniversary of the Orthodox presence in China marked in 2010.

Divine Liturgy celebrated at the Church of the Protecting Veil in Harbin

On 11 April 2010, St. Thomas Sunday, the Revd. Michael Wang Quansheng, a clergyman of the Chinese Autonomous Orthodox Church, who lives in retirement in Shanghai, celebrated the Divine Liturgy at the Church of the Protecting Veil in Harbin for the Orthodox community with the permission of the state authorities.

Fr. Michael Wang was ordained priest by Bishop Simeon (Du) of Shanghai in 1958. Fr. Michael, 86, was assisted by a reader, Papias Fu Xiliang, a pupil of the head of the 20th Russian Ecclesiastical Mission in China, Archbishop Viktor (Svyatin) of Beijing. Fu Xiliang studied at the Moscow Theological seminary several years ago.

Some fifty Orthodox citizens of China prayed at the Divine service as well as the Russians who reside or stay in Harbin. Many of them received Holy Communion. The procession of the cross around the church was held after the service that was celebrated in the Church Slavonic language; certain prayers were read in Chinese. Fr. Michael read out Paschal greetings in Chinese. The name of His Holiness Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia was proclaimed during the service. He will take direct canonical care for the flock until a Primate of the Chinese Autonomous Orthodox Church is elected

My, they certainly are ethnic looking in those robes.

So, are the temples used? If they are closed, do the Faithful pray?  Do the clergy serve as far as they are allowed, and then some? Does the patriarch of the Church and the Holy Synod oversee the flock? pressure the authorities to allow the Faitful to gather? train new priests (there are Chinese seminarians in Russia)? evangelize (there is/was talk of Church sponsership of Chinese language programs in High Schools in the Russian Far East/Vladivostok for missionary purposes)? translate liturgical and devotional texts?
http://www.orthodox.cn/unproofread/index_en.html
Then yes, it continues to have jurisdiction over the whole of the Middle Kingdom as long as it continues to exerciese the Mandate of Heaven.

That is ridiculous.
 

What would be ridiculous is setting up an enormous Metropolitinate for a land in which not a single missionary sent had arrived, and ignoring the stubborn persistence of a Church established centuries before.

Having personally known Met. Nikitas before his departure to China, I have an idea of his intentions of establishing a foothold in Hong Kong before the communists set things in stone.  I have much less faith in what the Phanar's intentions were, and yes, in Hong Kong Moscow has a parish, founded in 1933.


It is a failure.

The Patriarch of Moscow has far more Chinese, Evenks and Albanzians in China than the Phanar has Greeks in Constantinople.

From the Greek Metropolis of Hong Kong website:
http://www.omhksea.org/
Quote
After the communists came to power in China most of the Russians left for Australia, the United States and other places.  Now there are very few Russians left in China, and the numbers of the Orthodox from the old Russian-organised dioceses have dwindled drastically.  There is only one functioning Orthodox church on the Mainland - the Pokrov church (the church of the Protection of the Theotokos) in Harbin.  The resident priest, Father Grigori Zhu, is 75.  There are about 18 parishioners who attend Sunday services, most of them elderly.  The youngest is 65.  Yet on the great feast of Easter this year, about 400 people filled the church - many who have settled overseas, and their children, returned to the mother church in Harbin for Pascha.

Pascha is the central message of Christianity.  God brings life out of death.  What man or human organizations plan could never get around or defeat God’s plan.  Perhaps there were people who expected, or even wanted, to see a dying Orthodox church in China.  After 1997 this has totally changed.

Quote
Improving relations between Russian and Chinese Orthodox (about 15,000 spread across China’s vast territory) is even included in the Sino-Russian Treaty of good neighbourliness for 2009 – 2012.

When he was in charge of the Moscow Patriarchate’s External Relations Department, Kirill had tried for the years to get the Chinese to allow the Russian Orthodox Church to train Chinese Orthodox seminarians train so as to re-establish a Chinese Orthodox clergy.

Several times the new patriarch had offered to send Russian clergymen to China for the care of Orthodox worshippers, to little success because religious freedom is not fully guaranteed in China since the Orthodox Church is not a recognised religious organisation in the country.

In recent years the late Patriarch Aleksij tried to get China to open up through Vladimir Putin’s influence and China’s need for Russian oil.

During his meeting with Ye, Kirill mentioned the various problems Orthodox communities face in mainland China. They include rebuilding the Dormition church on the grounds of the Russian Embassy in Beijing and the lack of Orthodox clergy in Harbin, Urumqi, Ghulja (Yining) and Labdarin (E'erguna).
China’s Cultural Revolution had devastating effects on Orthodox bishops and priests. Still today there are no local priests and worshippers meet on and off on Sundays to pray.

There are however 13 Chinese Orthodox seminarians studying at the Sretenskaya Theological Academy in Moscow and the Academy of St Petersburg.

Russian Orthodox priests come to China on Christmas and Easter to celebrate various services but inside Russia’s embassy and consulates.
http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=32122

But further, there is a problem with regard to the Russian position:  when a nation being missionized borders two or more Orthodox Churches each looking to missionize.

There is no other Orthodox Church anywhere near China's borders.

There, Constantinople's position is certainly stronger at preventing problems.

Without exception, the Phanar has caused and exacerbated the problem of every such instance I can think of.  If you can think of an example when the Phanar solved anything, please let me know.

Even if Russias position was implimented, you would need Constantinople as a ref between to autocephlous churches claiming the new jurisdiction.
A ref has to be impartial which is why a litigant cannot serve as ref. And the Phanar has shown itself to be quite litigious.

2.  Missions to regions that are not bordering nations with autocephalous churches.  This is where Constantinople's position has more teeth right from the start.
In such cases, the canon 28 mythology is quite toothless.

You can't just have any autocephelous church that feels like it going anywhere and starting missions, or you have...multi-jurisdictionalism.
Of which the Phanar is the worst offender.  What it did in Sweden is among the most eggregious (btw, I see no evidence that the Scandinavian EA has met, which knowing somethings about the Greek metropolitan there, I am not suprised): the varous Orthodox organized themselves into an organization and turned themselves over to the Phanar's representative, who proceeded to turn it into a Greek archdiocese and told the other groups to form their own ethnic "missions." North America is not the only place where the Phanar ignored established hiearchies of long standing: St. John of Maximovich once made a recital of many of them.
30,000 isn't overwhelming, but given the circumstances, and in particular that no other local Orthodox Church is close to that number, it is not nothing either.
Where once there were several dioceses, there are now only (if even) several parishes.  The Russian Church should not care so terribly much about claims as it does about souls.  If the Russian Church is unwilling or unable to spread the Gospel in China, then other Churches have an obligation to step up and take its place.  Besides, China is certainly large enough that there is no reason the Russians can't be the only Church in part of it, and Greeks the only Church in another part.
yes, I'm sure the Chinese authorities would love such divison of their country, given that they are so against centralization. Roll Eyes
This reminds me somewhat of the people who claim that because Russia was the first Church in Alaska, or in San Francisco, that somehow it then gained jurisdiction over the entire country from coast to coast.
LOL.  And the Phanar, without founding a single parish, and without a single bishop setting foot in America, had jurisdiction to order America's affairs, ignoring the three bishops in America at the time?  When the first bishop of this fairy tale, Met./Abp./EP/Pope Meletius presumed to organize America into an archdiocese, he not only included South America, where Moscow had Churches and the Greeks at most chapels, but he presumed to set up a cathedral in San Francisco, where Moscow had not only a Church but a Cathedral for over a half century by then.

Btw, the jurisdiction of the Russian Church in the US was guarenteed by the terms of the Alaskan Cession treaty, under the US Constitution a supreme law of the land, and recognized by the State of New York by Statute in 1871.
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« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2011, 06:10:07 PM »

According to the law of succession it is the Russian Orthodox Church that holds the responsibility for the destiny of Orthodoxy in China.

And having mostly given up on evangelizing the Chinese, and allowing only foreign passport holders to visit their parish in Beijing, the Russian Church is hardly carrying out that responsibility.

The Parish of the Dormition in Beijing has its physical church building in the only place it is allowed to be: inside the Russian Embassy, and thus on Russian soil. The Chinese cannot visit because their travel to foreign soil is restricted; in addition any religious service led by a foreigner is not allowed to be attended by a Chinese citizen. The priest who ministers the Dormition parish most of the time is Russian (the aforementioned Archpriest Dionisiy) and so Chinese cannot attend..... openly.

Pray for the Orthodox in China, because they are there, but don't worry about them being abandoned by the Russian Orthodox Church. They're not. It's just - for the sake of all Orthodox in that country, native or not - such ministering is not shouted from the rooftops. And I think it's best if I leave it at that for a public forum.
That is what I am told by those you go there.
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« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2011, 09:50:06 PM »

Isa, I had a very poor choice of words when I said that the Chinese Orthodox Church no longer exists.  What I should have said is that its organizational structure had basically been decimated.  If I am wrong on that, feel free to correct me.

As to the EP's claims on America, I don't think it had any more of a right to claim jurisdiction over the country.  It was also a great misfortune that the Patriarchate established a cathedral in San Francisco, it should have only set up bishops in areas without them (preferably regions of the countries, or at least States, without them).  As to your claim about the Alaskan cessation treaty, could you point me to the passage because I've never heard that before (I believe you, I just haven't heard that)?
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« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2011, 09:54:47 PM »

Isa, I had a very poor choice of words when I said that the Chinese Orthodox Church no longer exists.  

No, I don't think it's wrong. Chinese Orthodox Christians certainly exist, but as an ecclesiastic structure, the autonomous Chinese Orthodox Church doesn't exist anymore. No bishops in China = no Chinese church.
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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2011, 10:01:30 PM »

What I would like to know are the names and biographies of the new martyrs who died in China during the Cultural Revolution.
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« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2011, 02:35:31 PM »

Isa, I had a very poor choice of words when I said that the Chinese Orthodox Church no longer exists.  What I should have said is that its organizational structure had basically been decimated.  If I am wrong on that, feel free to correct me.
Decimated, that's true enough. But not abandoned.  There has been a lot of low key activity between Russia and China which, as always, has always been tense over the Church.

As to the EP's claims on America, I don't think it had any more of a right to claim jurisdiction over the country.  It was also a great misfortune that the Patriarchate established a cathedral in San Francisco, it should have only set up bishops in areas without them (preferably regions of the countries, or at least States, without them).  As to your claim about the Alaskan cessation treaty, could you point me to the passage because I've never heard that before (I believe you, I just haven't heard that)?
The bare clause is this:
Quote
Article II

In the cession of territory and dominion made by the preceding article, are included the right of property in all public lots and squares, vacant lands, and all public buildings, fortifications, barracks, and other edifies which are not private individual property. It is, however, understood and agreed, that the churches which have been built in the ceded territory by the Russian Government, shall remain the property of such members of the Greek Oriental Church resident in the territory as may choose to worship therein. Any Government archives, papers, and documents relative to the territory and dominion aforesaid, which may now be existing there, will be left in the possession of the agent of the United States; but an authenticated copy of such of them as may be required, will be, at all times, given by the United States to the Russian Government, or to such Russian officers or subjects as they may apply for.

Article III

The inhabitants of the ceded territory, according to their choice, reserving their natural allegiance, may return to Russia within three years; but if they should prefer to remain in the ceded territory, they, with the exception of uncivilized native tribes, shall be admitted to the enjoyment of all the rights, advantages, and immunities of citizens of the United States, and shall be maintained and protected in the free enjoyment of their liberty, property, and religion. The uncivilized tribes will be subject to such laws and regulations as the United States may from time to time adopt in regard to aboriginal tribes of that country.
http://www.bartleby.com/43/43.html

That doesn't say much on the surface, but you put in the context of American law, and its a big deal.  I don't have the time right now to cite the common law on this, the case law, newspaper articles, etc. as I've done here and at http://orthodoxhistory.org/, but for an overview: as a treaty, according to the supremacy clause, it is supreme law of the land, so although, for instance, the First Amendment does not allow establishment of religion, the citizenship of the natives was determined in part by whether they were Orthodox or not.  Not only the Orthodox Churches, but the Lutheran ones (because of the status the Czar and St. Innocent gave them), were taken as automatically incorporated, amongst other oddities, because according to US law the prior law of a territory annexed by the US is treated as American, not foreign, law.  The status of the Orthodox diocese of Alaska was like the status of Guantanomo Bay, where the US has the port, but Cuba has sovereignty.  The Czar ceded sovereignty to the US government, but the Church maintained its status, but now as an American institution, due to recognition in all the states due to full faith and credit.
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« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2011, 03:19:09 PM »

Pray for the Orthodox in China, because they are there, but don't worry about them being abandoned by the Russian Orthodox Church. They're not. It's just - for the sake of all Orthodox in that country, native or not - such ministering is not shouted from the rooftops. And I think it's best if I leave it at that for a public forum.

Such clandestine activities is not as vigorous as you like to pretend. Maybe there is some secret ministering, and that's good. But I've heard complaints from locals that they were utterly ignored by this embassy church system, with officials of the Russian Church telling them that their church was only meant for Russians.

FWIW, even I, a westerner and Orthodox, was denied entry to a Russian embassy church with the same explanation "You're not Russian. The Russian Orthodox Church ministers to Russians. Surely you have some other [heterodox] church you can go to in this city."
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« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2011, 03:30:56 PM »

Pray for the Orthodox in China, because they are there, but don't worry about them being abandoned by the Russian Orthodox Church. They're not. It's just - for the sake of all Orthodox in that country, native or not - such ministering is not shouted from the rooftops. And I think it's best if I leave it at that for a public forum.

Such clandestine activities is not as vigorous as you like to pretend. Maybe there is some secret ministering, and that's good. But I've heard complaints from locals that they were utterly ignored by this embassy church system, with officials of the Russian Church telling them that their church was only meant for Russians.

If your last sentence is true then there would be an unwillingness to let in any foreigners to the embassy church. Having attended there, I can say that, yes, there is some suspicion of foreigners attending liturgies, but that this suspicion mainly comes from security staff - who don't even attend church - rather than the Russian parishioners, much less the clergy. Perhaps there is a similar antagonism from embassy staff to the locals, and this is being misinterpreted as coming from the church heirarchy. Even if it did come from the bishops, they are hardly ever in China anyway (which also makes me wonder how the locals know of such attitudes). I cannot fault the clergy's attitude to the Chinese at the parish level.

EDIT:

You added:

Quote
FWIW, even I, a westerner and Orthodox, was denied entry to a Russian embassy church with the same explanation "You're not Russian. The Russian Orthodox Church ministers to Russians. Surely you have some other [heterodox] church you can go to in this city."
Perhaps this is colouring your view. I agree that it's not nice to be turned away by some surly Russian security guard, or embassy official. Perhaps their suspicions are legitimate: one way of getting a spy onto embassy grounds would be to pretend to be an Orthodox Christian. When I used to attend, once through the gates there was pretty long walk to get to the church building (the Russian embassy in Beijing is, I think, the biggest embassy in the world) and so it would have been easy to slip off and have a nosey around.
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« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2011, 03:33:07 PM »

I know of at least one priest from North America who regularly flies to China to minister to scattered Chinese Orthodox there. The Chinese government knows why he's there, but chooses to look the other way, at least for now.
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« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2011, 02:12:12 AM »

Pray for the Orthodox in China, because they are there, but don't worry about them being abandoned by the Russian Orthodox Church. They're not. It's just - for the sake of all Orthodox in that country, native or not - such ministering is not shouted from the rooftops. And I think it's best if I leave it at that for a public forum.

Such clandestine activities is not as vigorous as you like to pretend. Maybe there is some secret ministering, and that's good. But I've heard complaints from locals that they were utterly ignored by this embassy church system, with officials of the Russian Church telling them that their church was only meant for Russians.

FWIW, even I, a westerner and Orthodox, was denied entry to a Russian embassy church with the same explanation "You're not Russian. The Russian Orthodox Church ministers to Russians. Surely you have some other [heterodox] church you can go to in this city."

Having been there...
- The clandestine activities are probably as vigorous as they could be expected to be, given that it's illegal (and could result in deportation).
- Not sure what city you're talking about, or how dated your information is - no official representative of the Russian embassy churches present in China would say that.  Even if that was true, it's hard to fault them, given that it's illegal for embassy churches to minister to Chinese nationals (and, again, could result in their deportation).
- Russian embassy churches within the PRC don't do that.  There are specific rules that govern the conduct of each of the embassy churches in PRC (sometimes including messaging beforehand, always including bringing a passport).
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« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2013, 03:44:52 PM »

A really good overview of the history of Orthodoxy in China - the Russian missions, Russian missionary evangelism to the Chinese, the embracing of orthodoxy by Chinese, and the current situation in Communist China.

Quote
Until recently the Russian Orthodox Church has remained the only Local Church preaching Orthodoxy in China for the last few centuries. However today it is necessary to speak of the recently created Ecumenical Patriarchate in the territories in Hong Kong and Taiwan. According to the law of succession it is the Russian Orthodox Church that holds the responsibility for the destiny of Orthodoxy in China. At the same time it is important to note the attempts undertaken by the Constantinople Patriarchate to dispute this right of succession and the principles of canonical existence of the Church in China as laid down by the Russian Orthodox Church.
  Taken from the article Orthodox Christianity in the People's republic of China by Archpriest Dionisiy Pozdnaev.
http://hermitage-journal.blogspot.com/2011/07/on-situation-of-orthodox-church-in.html
how about a trial by ordeal: whoever can convert China the fastest, everybody wins.
A convert is a convert is a convert - so I guess it doesn't matter where they come from. China is at this stage to my knowledge using the Church Calendar, not the New.

The New Calendar is the Church calendar. And they don't use the Old Calendar in China. Not since 1929.
I hope the EP in Hong Kong will honour that in Mainland China. Given that Moscow has 15,000 souls in Turkey compared to between 500-800 Constantinople Patriarchate, does the same apply?
No. There may be 15,000 Russians in Turkey, but they belong to the Constantinople Patriarchate.

And they don't use the Old Calendar in China. Not since 1929.——Not ture,in fact there was(and still is) no one parish or monastery in China ever uesd new calendar,except the ones in Taiwan and in Hongkong which belong to EP.
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« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2013, 04:08:55 PM »

A really good overview of the history of Orthodoxy in China - the Russian missions, Russian missionary evangelism to the Chinese, the embracing of orthodoxy by Chinese, and the current situation in Communist China.

Quote
Until recently the Russian Orthodox Church has remained the only Local Church preaching Orthodoxy in China for the last few centuries. However today it is necessary to speak of the recently created Ecumenical Patriarchate in the territories in Hong Kong and Taiwan. According to the law of succession it is the Russian Orthodox Church that holds the responsibility for the destiny of Orthodoxy in China. At the same time it is important to note the attempts undertaken by the Constantinople Patriarchate to dispute this right of succession and the principles of canonical existence of the Church in China as laid down by the Russian Orthodox Church.
  Taken from the article Orthodox Christianity in the People's republic of China by Archpriest Dionisiy Pozdnaev.
http://hermitage-journal.blogspot.com/2011/07/on-situation-of-orthodox-church-in.html
how about a trial by ordeal: whoever can convert China the fastest, everybody wins.
A convert is a convert is a convert - so I guess it doesn't matter where they come from. China is at this stage to my knowledge using the Church Calendar, not the New. I hope the EP in Hong Kong will honour that in Mainland China.
I somehow think the Calendar Issue is not the most important problem the Chinese Orthodox face today.
Correct. Is it for anyone?

I somehow think the Calendar Issue is not the most important problem the Chinese Orthodox face today.
Correct. Is it for anyone?

——for some chinese very important.I personally asked some of them:if in the future some new-clendarist clery be in charge of your parish,would you accept?Almost all of them told me:"In this case, we will escape from such church like Raskol did.
And in the last days of late Priest Fr.Alexander Du(the last native chinese priest in Beijing), on his dying bed one of his last teaching is:"always keep not only Pascha but also Nativity and all fixed feasts in old calendar"。
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« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2013, 04:11:50 PM »

——for some chinese very important.I personally asked some of them:if in the future some new-clendarist clery be in charge of your parish,would you accept?Almost all of them told me:"In this case, we will escape from such church like Raskol did.
And in the last days of late Priest Fr.Alexander Du(the last native chinese priest in Beijing), on his dying bed one of his last teaching is:"always keep not only Pascha but also Nativity and all fixed feasts in old calendar"。

But the Chinese Orthodox Church is already in communion with new calendar churches...
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« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2013, 05:13:08 PM »

A really good overview of the history of Orthodoxy in China - the Russian missions, Russian missionary evangelism to the Chinese, the embracing of orthodoxy by Chinese, and the current situation in Communist China.

Quote
Until recently the Russian Orthodox Church has remained the only Local Church preaching Orthodoxy in China for the last few centuries. However today it is necessary to speak of the recently created Ecumenical Patriarchate in the territories in Hong Kong and Taiwan. According to the law of succession it is the Russian Orthodox Church that holds the responsibility for the destiny of Orthodoxy in China. At the same time it is important to note the attempts undertaken by the Constantinople Patriarchate to dispute this right of succession and the principles of canonical existence of the Church in China as laid down by the Russian Orthodox Church.
  Taken from the article Orthodox Christianity in the People's republic of China by Archpriest Dionisiy Pozdnaev.
http://hermitage-journal.blogspot.com/2011/07/on-situation-of-orthodox-church-in.html
how about a trial by ordeal: whoever can convert China the fastest, everybody wins.
A convert is a convert is a convert - so I guess it doesn't matter where they come from. China is at this stage to my knowledge using the Church Calendar, not the New. I hope the EP in Hong Kong will honour that in Mainland China.
I somehow think the Calendar Issue is not the most important problem the Chinese Orthodox face today.
Correct. Is it for anyone?

I somehow think the Calendar Issue is not the most important problem the Chinese Orthodox face today.
Correct. Is it for anyone?

——for some chinese very important.I personally asked some of them:if in the future some new-clendarist clery be in charge of your parish,would you accept?Almost all of them told me:"In this case, we will escape from such church like Raskol did.
And in the last days of late Priest Fr.Alexander Du(the last native chinese priest in Beijing), on his dying bed one of his last teaching is:"always keep not only Pascha but also Nativity and all fixed feasts in old calendar"。

Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2013, 11:58:13 AM »

——for some chinese very important.I personally asked some of them:if in the future some new-clendarist clery be in charge of your parish,would you accept?Almost all of them told me:"In this case, we will escape from such church like Raskol did.
And in the last days of late Priest Fr.Alexander Du(the last native chinese priest in Beijing), on his dying bed one of his last teaching is:"always keep not only Pascha but also Nativity and all fixed feasts in old calendar"。

But the Chinese Orthodox Church is already in communion with new calendar churches...

Yes,it does.Chinese traditional ethic is based on the 差等。
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« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2013, 12:07:11 PM »

——for some chinese very important.I personally asked some of them:if in the future some new-clendarist clery be in charge of your parish,would you accept?Almost all of them told me:"In this case, we will escape from such church like Raskol did.
And in the last days of late Priest Fr.Alexander Du(the last native chinese priest in Beijing), on his dying bed one of his last teaching is:"always keep not only Pascha but also Nativity and all fixed feasts in old calendar"。

But the Chinese Orthodox Church is already in communion with new calendar churches...

Yes,it does.Chinese traditional ethic is based on the 差等。

English, please.
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« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2013, 03:35:07 AM »

——for some chinese very important.I personally asked some of them:if in the future some new-clendarist clery be in charge of your parish,would you accept?Almost all of them told me:"In this case, we will escape from such church like Raskol did.
And in the last days of late Priest Fr.Alexander Du(the last native chinese priest in Beijing), on his dying bed one of his last teaching is:"always keep not only Pascha but also Nativity and all fixed feasts in old calendar"。

But the Chinese Orthodox Church is already in communion with new calendar churches...

Yes,it does.Chinese traditional ethic is based on the 差等。


English, please.


There is something untranslatable,this is why we keep such words like "amin,alliluia,osana,savvaot"in church service.
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« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2013, 04:33:53 AM »

——for some chinese very important.I personally asked some of them:if in the future some new-clendarist clery be in charge of your parish,would you accept?Almost all of them told me:"In this case, we will escape from such church like Raskol did.
And in the last days of late Priest Fr.Alexander Du(the last native chinese priest in Beijing), on his dying bed one of his last teaching is:"always keep not only Pascha but also Nativity and all fixed feasts in old calendar"。

But the Chinese Orthodox Church is already in communion with new calendar churches...

Yes,it does.Chinese traditional ethic is based on the 差等。


English, please.


There is something untranslatable,this is why we keep such words like "amin,alliluia,osana,savvaot"in church service.

Well you could always use Latin alphabets and explain the concept in your own words.
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« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2013, 06:11:59 AM »

——for some chinese very important.I personally asked some of them:if in the future some new-clendarist clery be in charge of your parish,would you accept?Almost all of them told me:"In this case, we will escape from such church like Raskol did.
And in the last days of late Priest Fr.Alexander Du(the last native chinese priest in Beijing), on his dying bed one of his last teaching is:"always keep not only Pascha but also Nativity and all fixed feasts in old calendar"。

But the Chinese Orthodox Church is already in communion with new calendar churches...

Yes,it does.Chinese traditional ethic is based on the 差等。


English, please.


There is something untranslatable,this is why we keep such words like "amin,alliluia,osana,savvaot"in church service.


This is a forum rule. You are required to posting English outside "Other Languages" forum. Translation, please.
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« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2013, 02:17:27 PM »

差等(chadeng)close to the word "hierarchy".
In this topic I say yes the chinese autonomous church is in communion with other churches which use new calendar ,because from the view of chadeng,faithfuls have not a direct relationship with bishops(there is no anyone inside of China),so for them is good enough to follow the Julian calendar in their own parishes ,they do not care what bishops do,who are very far away from their daily life.
The same thing happened when we still had our native bishops: Vasileios the bishop of Beijing had concelebrated with new calendarists(with bishops from antiochian Patriarchate for example),but since he did not force his own flock to follow the new calendar,people were indifferent on such issue(concelebration).
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« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2013, 04:23:34 PM »

差等(chadeng)close to the word "hierarchy".

Thank you. Remember about that in future.
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