Author Topic: Reincarnation?  (Read 26091 times)

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Offline android

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Reincarnation?
« on: September 13, 2010, 05:01:51 PM »
I "think" this is the right place for this.

Context- I am a Greek Orthodox Christian (convert) living in America.


So, my default position on reincarnation is not to believe in it.

However, there is this book that is currently on the NYT bestseller list, and I've seen the kid and parents on TV a few times. It's incredible:


http://www.amazon.com/Soul-Survivor-Reincarnation-World-Fighter/dp/0446509337

"This is the story of James Leininger, who-- a little more than two weeks after his second birthday-- began having blood-curdling nightmares that just would not stop. When James began screaming out recurring phrases like, "Plane on fire! Little man can't get out!" the Leiningers finally admitted that they truly had to take notice.

When details of planes and war tragedies no two-year-old boy could know continued-- even in stark daylight-- Bruce and Andrea Leininger began to realize that this was an incredible situation. SOUL SURVIVOR is the story of how the Leiningers pieced together what their son was communicating and eventually discovered that he was reliving the past life of World War II fighter pilot James Huston. As Bruce Leininger struggled to understand what was happening to his son, he also uncovered details of James Huston's life-- and death-- as a pilot that will fascinate military buffs everywhere.

In SOUL SURVIVOR, we are taken for a gripping ride as the Leiningers' belief system is shaken to the core, and both of these families come to know a little boy who, against all odds and even in the face of true skeptics, harbors the soul of this man who died long ago. "


I've had some acquaintances who have had kids who had memories of past lives.  One is particular was telling me about his little 2 year old girl.  As soon as she could speak, she began to say things they didn't understand.  They thought it was just gibberish.  Then the wife's friend came over one day and heard the little girl playing.  She turned  to the girl's mom and said, "Wow!  You've already begun to teach her French!  She can say entire sentences in French!" The mom was floored.  She said, "I don't know French.  Neither does my husband!"  The parents had no idea how she could speak French. 

One day, her father asked her, "Sarah, how did you learn French?"  Her reply: "Oh, I used to live in the Ardennes, daddy.  I used to have a different daddy and a different mommy and we all spoke French.  My 2 brothers spoke French, too, and played with me a lot."  The girl had (at that time) no siblings in this life.  Very interesting. 

As she progressed to about 3 and a half, she began to lose the French and the memories that accompanied it.

So, I'm not saying I believe in reincarnation, but these sorts of occurrences are striking in the world of faith because, well, there is credibility and verifiability when children know/remember stuff that they have no way of knowing unless there is some memory.

What do you think?

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2010, 05:23:39 PM »

Personally, I think it's demons...trying to break the faith of those around by convincing them of reincarnation.

There is no such thing.
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Offline android

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2010, 05:29:59 PM »

Personally, I think it's demons...trying to break the faith of those around by convincing them of reincarnation.

There is no such thing.

That is definitely one theory- it just seems "wrong" that children would be involved. Not that demons can't attack anyone at any age, but I would like to think that God wouldn't permit that against a 2 year old.

Plus, I don't see anything inherently demonic by a child "remembering" French or growing up in France...maybe the genius of the demon's plans is in the subtlety and non-obvious nature of the attack- if it were more overtly anti-Christian people would see it for what it is.

OTOH, I'm reluctant to place blame on demons in a general sense, since in the past that has been done out of ignorance more than anything (e.g. psychological/mental illness). I'm not saying you are ignorant at all, just commenting on my take on the "it's demons" explanation generally.

Offline Vzldrb

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2010, 05:48:03 PM »

Personally, I think it's demons...trying to break the faith of those around by convincing them of reincarnation.

There is no such thing.

That is definitely one theory- it just seems "wrong" that children would be involved. Not that demons can't attack anyone at any age, but I would like to think that God wouldn't permit that against a 2 year old.

Plus, I don't see anything inherently demonic by a child "remembering" French or growing up in France...maybe the genius of the demon's plans is in the subtlety and non-obvious nature of the attack- if it were more overtly anti-Christian people would see it for what it is.

OTOH, I'm reluctant to place blame on demons in a general sense, since in the past that has been done out of ignorance more than anything (e.g. psychological/mental illness). I'm not saying you are ignorant at all, just commenting on my take on the "it's demons" explanation generally.
I would go with subconscious or something else like that.

Even if Reincarnation IS true, a big IF... we still can break free from that "cycle" via Jesus Christ. We do not need to die again and again, but we have etenral everladting life with him, regardless of reincarnation or not. Therefore, we are also "saved" from this cycle.

I'm just trying to put things into a larger context.

Richard

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2010, 06:34:33 PM »
Even if Reincarnation IS true, a big IF... we still can break free from that "cycle" via Jesus Christ. We do not need to die again and again, but we have etenral everladting life with him, regardless of reincarnation or not. Therefore, we are also "saved" from this cycle.
That's how Christians who believe in reincarnation would tend to view things, too.
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Offline Vzldrb

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2010, 07:05:31 PM »
Even if Reincarnation IS true, a big IF... we still can break free from that "cycle" via Jesus Christ. We do not need to die again and again, but we have etenral everladting life with him, regardless of reincarnation or not. Therefore, we are also "saved" from this cycle.
That's how Christians who believe in reincarnation would tend to view things, too.
That is not how I view things, mind you.

However, i'd rather not believe in reincarnation... If reincarnation is true, so what? We live good lives as Christians and get another good life.

If we dont get reincarnated but have an eternal soul, and believe in reincarnation and act as if this life is just a small one in the sequence of many to come, well...
Things won't be so good, imo.

Let's err on the side of caution.
Richard

Offline theistgal

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2010, 08:21:01 PM »
FWIW I read the book that the OP describes, when it first came out.  I think the parents and family read a lot into the little boy's dreams and statements that may not have been there.  But there were certainly some strange coincidences involved, if they are all telling the truth about what happened.

Like the previous poster says, I think it's best to assume, as the Bible states, that we only have this one life and then comes the judgment.  If the judgment involves somehow having another life or experiencing parts of this life again, in a way that is similar to what reincarnationists believe, well, that's up to God, now, isn't it?

I think ultimately we just have to decide which version of the afterlife makes the most sense, based on the information we are given, and trust God for the rest.  He's the only one who really has any control over it, after all. ;)
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2010, 08:54:29 PM »
Reincarnation/rebirth is not something that can be objectively, or empirically proven beyond doubt. From an objective standpoint, there are many possible models that can be invoked in order to explain the data in the OP.

The Sufis have developed such a model, that explains the data in the OP, but within a mono-zoan (or "one-life") framework. It goes something like this: The atoms your body were used by previous persons before you were born, and are used even persons alive right now, and will be used by future-born people after you die. And yet, such a fact doesn't affect your Resurrection Body.

Likewise, say the Sufis, the thoughts and feelings of your mind were used by persons of the past, are used by persons alive right now (write a sentence, have someone read it: there, your thoughts and feelings are now part of that person's mind), and will be used by people in the future. Yet, such a fact won't affect your Resurrection Mind.

In other words, thoughts and feelings can be conceptualized as acting like atoms and molecules, capable of being shared. When we are born, the atoms are all second-hand atoms, but now are in a unique configuration. Likewise, the thoughts/feelings are all second-hand, but now exist in a structural form that is unique to us.

So, a Sufi might say that, every now and then, someone is born whose second-hand thoughts/feelings are not sufficiently "atomized" into smaller units, such that the person is able to "remember" fully formed thoughts and feelings that were previously associated with another person.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 08:55:09 PM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2010, 10:32:14 PM »
One thing we have to wonder is, in the context of Christianity, why would there be reincarnation? I can't seem to come up with a decent reason why the God of orthodox Christianity would have created the reality of reincarnation. And if there is no reason why He would have done it, you really have to question whether He actually did or not.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2010, 11:32:07 PM »
The concept of reincarnation is incompatible with Orthodox Christianity because our bodies are not passive receptacles of spirits or souls. They are rather an integral portion of our very being. To have a "soul" united to multiple bodies seems heretical.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 11:32:24 PM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2010, 01:53:15 AM »
The concept of reincarnation is incompatible with Orthodox Christianity because our bodies are not passive receptacles of spirits or souls. They are rather an integral portion of our very being. To have a "soul" united to multiple bodies seems heretical.

Agreed!

Offline stashko

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2010, 02:09:09 AM »
Don't some of the Jews Believe In Reincarnation,also some muslims ,From what I heard.....Its Interesting ...Then the Judgment after Death... ;D
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline Luke

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2010, 03:10:50 AM »
Don't some of the Jews Believe In Reincarnation,also some muslims ,From what I heard.....Its Interesting ...Then the Judgment after Death... ;D
Some of the Jewish mystics might believe in it.

Offline Vzldrb

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2010, 04:38:18 AM »
Don't some of the Jews Believe In Reincarnation,also some muslims ,From what I heard.....Its Interesting ...Then the Judgment after Death... ;D
Some of the Jewish mystics might believe in it.
ie. Hasidic Jews.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2010, 09:23:50 AM »
One thing we have to wonder is, in the context of Christianity, why would there be reincarnation? I can't seem to come up with a decent reason why the God of orthodox Christianity would have created the reality of reincarnation. And if there is no reason why He would have done it, you really have to question whether He actually did or not.
Christians who believe in reincarnation (CWBIR, for short) might say that reincarnation provides a way for humans to learn, grow, and spiritually evolve. How much can one really learn in a span of, say, 5, 25, or 50 years? CWBIRs would also say that a Christian theory of reincarnation would be very different from a Hindu or Buddhist (or even Platonic) theory of reincarnation/rebirth.

Of course, God did not have to set the world in a reincarnationist way, but a CWBIR would not see any inherent conflict if He had.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 09:38:57 AM by Jetavan »
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2010, 09:41:18 AM »

There is no Christian Theory of Reincarnation.  You have this one life, so you better do your best with it.

As for demons not possessing children...as if they were too polite to do so....why is then that prior to baptism (even infant baptism) the individual goes through an exorcism?  Just in case....

So, this whole reincarnation/rebirth, people reliving previous lives, people being able to talk to your dead relatives who are floating around you, etc....this is all work of demons...to confuse you....

It seems they are making headway, as some devout Orthodox are believing in reincarnation.

Christ lived as a man on this earth...He never mentioned reincarnation....His soul did not come back in another body....He came to His disciples with the same body and soul...and He ascended to Heaven as such.

That should say it all.

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Offline quietmorning

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2010, 09:43:37 AM »
One thing we have to wonder is, in the context of Christianity, why would there be reincarnation? I can't seem to come up with a decent reason why the God of orthodox Christianity would have created the reality of reincarnation. And if there is no reason why He would have done it, you really have to question whether He actually did or not.
Christians who believe in reincarnation (CWBIR, for short) might say that reincarnation provides a way for humans to learn, grow, and spiritually evolve. How much can one really learn in a span of, say, 5, 25, or 50 years? CWBIRs would also say that a Christian theory of reincarnation would be very different from a Hindu or Buddhist (or even Platonic) theory of reincarnation/rebirth.

Of course, God did not have to set the world in a reincarnationist way, but a CWBIR would not see any inherent conflict if He had.

How can you learn and evolve if you don't REMEMBER what you did before?  That crux of reincarnation always seemed very sadistic to me. 
In His Mercy,
BethAnna

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2010, 10:38:25 AM »
One thing we have to wonder is, in the context of Christianity, why would there be reincarnation? I can't seem to come up with a decent reason why the God of orthodox Christianity would have created the reality of reincarnation. And if there is no reason why He would have done it, you really have to question whether He actually did or not.
Christians who believe in reincarnation (CWBIR, for short) might say that reincarnation provides a way for humans to learn, grow, and spiritually evolve. How much can one really learn in a span of, say, 5, 25, or 50 years? CWBIRs would also say that a Christian theory of reincarnation would be very different from a Hindu or Buddhist (or even Platonic) theory of reincarnation/rebirth.

Of course, God did not have to set the world in a reincarnationist way, but a CWBIR would not see any inherent conflict if He had.

How can you learn and evolve if you don't REMEMBER what you did before?  That crux of reincarnation always seemed very sadistic to me. 
Look around at what you're doing today. Most likely, you were doing similar things in the past.

Having said that, it's not important to remember what you did before, in terms of precise details. What's important is to know that whatever you were doing, you weren't fully embodying love, compassion, wisdom, and discrimination. And now you have a chance to do so.
If you will, you can become all flame.
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In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2010, 11:21:33 AM »

Are you folks referring to past lives when you say "remember"?
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2010, 11:26:28 AM »
No, I think what they're saying is that you don't have to remember, say, learning to walk as a baby in order to benefit from that knowledge.  So by the same token, you don't have to remember past lives in order to benefit from the lessons learned in them.

(NOTE: I am not saying I believe in reincarnation!!! Just pointing out one fallacy in the argument against it! Don't taze me bro! :D )
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2010, 12:33:29 PM »
No, I think what they're saying is that you don't have to remember, say, learning to walk as a baby in order to benefit from that knowledge.  So by the same token, you don't have to remember past lives in order to benefit from the lessons learned in them.
Correct. I don't remember when I first learned to count, but I know I did it, because I can now count.

Quote
(NOTE: I am not saying I believe in reincarnation!!! Just pointing out one fallacy in the argument against it! Don't taze me bro! :D )
Duly noted. :o
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2010, 08:54:32 PM »
Christians who believe in reincarnation (CWBIR, for short) might say that reincarnation provides a way for humans to learn, grow, and spiritually evolve.

The Church has already provided for that by teaching that the prayers of the faithful may affect the fate of the reposed.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2010, 09:32:11 PM »
Christians who believe in reincarnation (CWBIR, for short) might say that reincarnation provides a way for humans to learn, grow, and spiritually evolve. How much can one really learn in a span of, say, 5, 25, or 50 years? CWBIRs would also say that a Christian theory of reincarnation would be very different from a Hindu or Buddhist (or even Platonic) theory of reincarnation/rebirth.

Would you happen to be one of those Christians who believes in reincarnation?

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2010, 10:21:01 PM »
Christians who believe in reincarnation (CWBIR, for short) might say that reincarnation provides a way for humans to learn, grow, and spiritually evolve. How much can one really learn in a span of, say, 5, 25, or 50 years? CWBIRs would also say that a Christian theory of reincarnation would be very different from a Hindu or Buddhist (or even Platonic) theory of reincarnation/rebirth.

Would you happen to be one of those Christians who believes in reincarnation?
I see reincarnation as a lower-level teaching. ;)
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2010, 11:04:26 PM »
Christians who believe in reincarnation (CWBIR, for short) might say that reincarnation provides a way for humans to learn, grow, and spiritually evolve. How much can one really learn in a span of, say, 5, 25, or 50 years? CWBIRs would also say that a Christian theory of reincarnation would be very different from a Hindu or Buddhist (or even Platonic) theory of reincarnation/rebirth.

Would you happen to be one of those Christians who believes in reincarnation?
I see reincarnation as a lower-level teaching. ;)

I'm not sure what you mean by that?

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2010, 03:09:30 PM »
Christians who believe in reincarnation (CWBIR, for short) might say that reincarnation provides a way for humans to learn, grow, and spiritually evolve. How much can one really learn in a span of, say, 5, 25, or 50 years? CWBIRs would also say that a Christian theory of reincarnation would be very different from a Hindu or Buddhist (or even Platonic) theory of reincarnation/rebirth.

Would you happen to be one of those Christians who believes in reincarnation?
I see reincarnation as a lower-level teaching. ;)

I'm not sure what you mean by that?
It means that I don't see belief in reincarnation as being necessary for salvation, or wholeness, or theosis.

« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 03:10:15 PM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2010, 11:24:45 AM »
Christians who believe in reincarnation (CWBIR, for short) might say that reincarnation provides a way for humans to learn, grow, and spiritually evolve. How much can one really learn in a span of, say, 5, 25, or 50 years? CWBIRs would also say that a Christian theory of reincarnation would be very different from a Hindu or Buddhist (or even Platonic) theory of reincarnation/rebirth.

Would you happen to be one of those Christians who believes in reincarnation?
I see reincarnation as a lower-level teaching. ;)

I'm not sure what you mean by that?
It means that I don't see belief in reincarnation as being necessary for salvation, or wholeness, or theosis.


At the same time, though, I would not reject the possibility of eternal damnation.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2010, 02:23:58 PM »
If one is dreaming something, it's either based on his own memory or his neurons going through some vivid and crazy imagery.  Either way, these processes of dreaming also exists in animals.  Unless one believes one can reincarnate in animals, these dreams are essentially meaningless at the moment.  It's simply believed that it's a way for the brain to reprocess and recharge itself.

As for reincarnation, well, if it's really true, one would remember who exactly he was rather than depend on some erroneous dream interpretation.  Suppose reincarnation is true.  Your memories would then cease to exist.  The families, friends, all those who you loved will not be remembered.  Reincarnation is pointless.

Also, James Huston...one can simply wonder, how different is this person's life from other people's lives that they pinpoint it to him?  Did the two-year-old watch some TV shows that seem to be engraved in his mind?  (remember children at those ages have minds like sponges)
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 02:27:21 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline Schultz

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2010, 02:36:59 PM »
Don't some of the Jews Believe In Reincarnation,also some muslims ,From what I heard.....Its Interesting ...Then the Judgment after Death... ;D
Some of the Jewish mystics might believe in it.
ie. Hasidic Jews.

While keeping in mind it is Wikipedia, the article on reincarnation there discusses its belief in Judaism rather well, I think.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2010, 02:44:44 PM »
When I heard this story, I thought of incidents in "Eternal Mysteries Beyond the Grave," where dead people will somehow communicate with the living, asking for prayers for their souls' rest. When prayers are said, there are no more incidents of "haunting."
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2010, 08:15:24 PM »
Like mina said, dreams are based on memories.  Often times, dreams are information transferring from short term to long term memory.  This includes fictional information we encounter, such as in movies or books.  I have a feeling that this child's dreams were first of all read into by the family (though that is a guess having not read the book), that the family has misremembered what he initially said - after looking for a real basis for his dreams - (again a guess), and that the child probably saw something on the news or otherwise on tv which put thoughts in his head.
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Offline stashko

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2010, 08:53:26 PM »
I wouldn't Mind If reincarnation  was true ,It would be heck of a lot better than living one life and if one didn't make it, is condemed to hell for all eternitiy with no Hope...Mybe the hell part is having to be reborn till one learn eventually.. And Good religions we enconter in each rebirth are put there to guide us for our betterment and achieving the end of rebirth heaven,but the bad religions we encounter in rebirth are there to tear us from that path ,by keeping us stuck in the cycle of rebirth and hell on earth...
                            Should we invite the Swami fo his opinion ;D
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 08:57:49 PM by stashko »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2010, 08:56:26 PM »
I wouldn't Mind If reincarnation  was true ,It would be heck of a lot better than living one life and if one didn't make it and is condemed to hell for all eternitiy with no Hope...Mybe the hell part is having to be reborn till one learn eventually.. And Good religions we enconter in each rebirth are put there to guide us for our betterment and achieving the end to rebirth,but the bad religions we encounter are there to tear us from that path ,by keeping us stuck in the cycle of rebirth and hell on earth...
           should we invite the swami fo his opinion ;D
NO!
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2010, 09:13:10 PM »
I could swear I've had this discussion before. ;)  ;)  ;)
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2010, 11:35:01 PM »
I wouldn't Mind If reincarnation  was true ,It would be heck of a lot better than living one life and if one didn't make it and is condemed to hell for all eternitiy with no Hope...Mybe the hell part is having to be reborn till one learn eventually.. And Good religions we enconter in each rebirth are put there to guide us for our betterment and achieving the end to rebirth,but the bad religions we encounter are there to tear us from that path ,by keeping us stuck in the cycle of rebirth and hell on earth...
           should we invite the swami fo his opinion ;D
NO!

I SECOND THAT!

otherwise, I wonder if there's a way to unsubscribe from this thread if that happens.
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2010, 11:45:54 PM »
There's alot of things we don't know about this world and beyond...

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2010, 11:46:29 PM »
I wouldn't Mind If reincarnation  was true ,It would be heck of a lot better than living one life and if one didn't make it and is condemed to hell for all eternitiy with no Hope...Mybe the hell part is having to be reborn till one learn eventually.. And Good religions we enconter in each rebirth are put there to guide us for our betterment and achieving the end to rebirth,but the bad religions we encounter are there to tear us from that path ,by keeping us stuck in the cycle of rebirth and hell on earth...
           should we invite the swami fo his opinion ;D
NO!

HAHA!  ;D

Offline theistgal

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2010, 01:16:43 PM »
There's alot of things we don't know about this world and beyond...

I disagree - I know for a fact that I know nothing about this world and beyond.  ;)  ;D
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2011, 01:28:23 PM »
I wouldn't Mind If reincarnation  was true ,It would be heck of a lot better than living one life and if one didn't make it, is condemed to hell for all eternitiy with no Hope...Mybe the hell part is having to be reborn till one learn eventually.. And Good religions we enconter in each rebirth are put there to guide us for our betterment and achieving the end of rebirth heaven,but the bad religions we encounter in rebirth are there to tear us from that path ,by keeping us stuck in the cycle of rebirth and hell on earth...
                           
For someone quite anti-ecumenical and anti-liberal, you keep surprising me with statements like this. 8)
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2011, 01:03:23 PM »
The Catholic journal Concilium devoted an issue to the question of reincarnation:

Quote
Is the Christianization of the idea of reincarnation necessary, or at least possible? Can the migration of the nucleus of an ‘I’ from one body to another even be proved empirically? In any attempt to answer this question we should allow ourselves to be guided by three starting points.

First, the discussion should be carried on in a spirit of dialogue.Dialogue does not exclude one’s own decisive position. But it requires that we give the notion of reincarnation a religious status and recognize the possibility that it can help towards solving religious problems.

Secondly, instead of appealing in authoritarian fashion to our own tradition, we must enter into a substantive discussion, since an intensive critical discussion has not yet been carried on. The centuries-long absence of a problem could become a trap, as has been the case in countless other questions.

Thirdly, we must guard against objectifying ideas about reincarnation too hastily from the perspective of the onlooker and identifying them with banalities. Was I once a rat and will I become a pig? Of course these are realistic pictures, as Christians also have realistic pictures of heaven. But we also know their limitations. We can never catch the existential mood, the utopian force and the ethical bond in religious symbols through descriptions. That is true not only of the resurrection of the dead but also of reincarnation.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2012, 11:26:30 AM »
Is reincarnation in Christianity considered to be an idea that (1) requires faith to believe in; or (2) is potentially empirically verifiable? In other words, is the rejection of reincarnation in Christian theology something more similar to the past rejection of a geocentric universe, or the past (and current) rejection of modalism?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 11:27:06 AM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline stavros_388

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2012, 01:03:45 PM »
I'm just throwing this out there for interest's sake. I read a book a couple of times when I was first approaching traditional Christianity (but still studying all kinds of other arcane stuff). It's called Meditations on the Tarot - A Journey into Christian Hermeticism. The author is a Catholic and ex-Anthroposophist, but speaks a great deal about hesychasm and the Orthodox Church with great reverence. Anyway, the book is kind of a mishmash of hermetic philosophy, science, occult and religious history, and symbols and mythology from both east and west, all of which lead to, point to, or culminate in the greatest revelation of Truth: Christ, as known in the traditional Church (he includes both Orthodox and RC).

In it, the author explains that reincarnation is indeed true and that the early Church knew it to be a fact, but a fact that was rejected from Church canon/teachings for very important reasons (explained in the book). Now I'm not saying that I endorse what the author says, but I always found it curious that the book has received interest from well-known Catholics, allegedly including Pope John II. Famous Catholic theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar wrote the afterword without, if I recall correctly, disparaging anything the author had written. At least two Trappist abbots have given the book strong endorsement.

I don't know. It's always made me wonder...

http://www.medtarot.freeserve.co.uk/pictures.htm
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 01:06:33 PM by stavros_388 »

Offline Manalive

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2012, 03:20:00 PM »
“It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”

:)

I don't think New Age philosophy and Orthodoxy can be reconcilled. They are on opposite sides of the spectrum.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2012, 03:24:04 PM »
Is reincarnation in Christianity considered to be an idea that (1) requires faith to believe in; or (2) is potentially empirically verifiable? In other words, is the rejection of reincarnation in Christian theology something more similar to the past rejection of a geocentric universe, or the past (and current) rejection of modalism?

There is a sense that what is decomposing or what is eaten is reused and recycled for the building blocks of our proteinous structures and functions, but our soul and our mind, our personalities are not reincarnated.  Each of one of us is a unique person who is not reborn, but born once, and lives forever by the grace of God.
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Reincarnation?
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2012, 04:18:32 PM »
If the body is a part of what makes us who we are, then there can be no reincarnation.  If all humanity is is intangible, then there can be. 
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