Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 197139 times)

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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1350 on: October 25, 2010, 08:57:06 PM »
You recommended Orthodox tradition saying as I became immersed, I would understand. In essence, you promise the blind will see.

BUT when I ask those who have been immersed in Orthodox tradition, who presumably now see, to interpret an obscure verse, they cannot.

Cannot, or will not?

If you are not capable of receiving the tradition because of your self-imposed blindness, why would our explaining it do you any good? Come and see it for yourself.


Yes, lets remove me from the equation, that should make it easy for you to prove Orthodox tradition is far superior to sola scriptura.

Pick a text sola scripturaists seem unable to answer...and that your Orthodox tradition cleared up quite nicely.

Then you prove your tradition superior to sola scriptura.

AND you can't blame me for your failure.



This..once again.. is not the Church of Holy Exegesis. You may well have answers for the smallest most obscure passages of scripture. So what ?

And when it comes to an obsure passage we may only have something that's a bit vauge. So what?

Your answer long as it may be, could be utterly wrong, even herticial. Our answer, a bit vauge as it may be, is at the minimum on the right track.

It is entirely acceptable for Orthodox to find some passage that is not central to the Faith and say that the Fathers have not said enough about it and here is what I think. It is not acceptable to change the Faith, Once Delivered by all sorts of personal re-interpretations.

We have seen nearly every ancient heresy resotred by Protestants by that method. Name a heresy put to bed hundreds of years ago and I will show you a Protestant Group that has breathed new life into it based on their miss handling of Scripture.

Alfred, you have made a very weak case IMHO.

     
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1351 on: October 25, 2010, 08:58:20 PM »
Alfred, I was going to drop this, but there is something about what you wrote that I don't understand. An answer may help me understand the way you interpret the Bible.


I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.

It is written:

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching (Heb 10:25 NKJ)

So I have not forsaken it by any means.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.

You claim regular faithful church attendance is our standard, but it appears to be a pretty straightforward reading of the text. You say that you rarely go to church, and that when you do, it is only when you feel like it, when it is convenient. That sounds to me like "the manner of some," since there are many who say they are Christians but who attend church rarely, when it is convenient to them.

So how do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

I haven't, and you haven't supported your claims Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable. I was told regular attendance at an Orthodox church, immersion in the tradition, would unveil apostolic doctrine.

But when I ask you interpret this verse, prove your claims, you fail to unveil the apostolic doctrine in this verse:

 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1Ti 2:15 NKJ)

Being you are a regular church goer, this should have been no problem for you.

Why is it a problem, doesn't Orthodox tradition make apostolic doctrine knowable, as you and others claim?

I never said "Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable."  You must have me confused with another member here.

I am not following the discussion you are having with others about 1 Tim. 2:15.  It does not interest me as much as your interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:15 Heb 10:25 (Edit: Oops!).  Alfred, simply saying that you haven't forsaken assembling together does not make it so, especially when you admitted in the same virtual breath that you have forsaken it.

How do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

Alfred, please answer my question.

Already did, you don't like the answer. I haven't forsaken it, I still attend.

Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)

Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

I see, you rarely attend, but you still attend, is that it?  When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  

What question would you like me to answer?  

How is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)


Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

Are the scriptures dark to me?  Have I have claimed to be "one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?"  I think you will have a difficult time finding that in one of my posts.

Your turn: When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  


Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)


Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

I did answer your question, Alfred, but maybe I misunderstood you. How is it that you think the scriptures are dark to me?  Where in this thread or any other did I ever claim to be one of those to whom "it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God"?

Alfred, when was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  Please answer my questions, which are considerably more straightforward than yours.  Please do not allow me to draw my own conclusions about you, which I will have to do without your answers.



Not so fast, you didn't answer. HOW is it you don't know? Don't you have the Holy Spirit? How is it you don't know?

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
 (1Jo 2:20 NKJ)

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God (1Co 2:12 NKJ)

I will freely admit that do not know all things.  (You may draw whatever conclusions you like from that.)  For instance, I do not know when you last attended church. 

Prove to me that "you know all things" (1 John 2:20) by telling me when was the last time you attended church.

You still aren't answering HOW (or WHY) you don't know these things from God given to His children to know, by His Spirit:

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

How is it YOU don't know these things freely given to us by God?
 (1Co 2:12 NKJ)

Well, since I have already admitted that I do not know all things, maybe I do not know the answer to your question.

But I am sure that you think that you do know all things, such as the date of your most recent church attendance.  Or maybe you do not know all things, after all.  If not, what does that say about you?

How can you not know when the text is this clear, I think you are evading the question:


NKJ  1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1352 on: October 25, 2010, 09:28:58 PM »
Alfred, I was going to drop this, but there is something about what you wrote that I don't understand. An answer may help me understand the way you interpret the Bible.


I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.

It is written:

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching (Heb 10:25 NKJ)

So I have not forsaken it by any means.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.

You claim regular faithful church attendance is our standard, but it appears to be a pretty straightforward reading of the text. You say that you rarely go to church, and that when you do, it is only when you feel like it, when it is convenient. That sounds to me like "the manner of some," since there are many who say they are Christians but who attend church rarely, when it is convenient to them.

So how do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

I haven't, and you haven't supported your claims Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable. I was told regular attendance at an Orthodox church, immersion in the tradition, would unveil apostolic doctrine.

But when I ask you interpret this verse, prove your claims, you fail to unveil the apostolic doctrine in this verse:

 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1Ti 2:15 NKJ)

Being you are a regular church goer, this should have been no problem for you.

Why is it a problem, doesn't Orthodox tradition make apostolic doctrine knowable, as you and others claim?

I never said "Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable."  You must have me confused with another member here.

I am not following the discussion you are having with others about 1 Tim. 2:15.  It does not interest me as much as your interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:15 Heb 10:25 (Edit: Oops!).  Alfred, simply saying that you haven't forsaken assembling together does not make it so, especially when you admitted in the same virtual breath that you have forsaken it.

How do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

Alfred, please answer my question.

Already did, you don't like the answer. I haven't forsaken it, I still attend.

Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)

Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

I see, you rarely attend, but you still attend, is that it?  When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  

What question would you like me to answer?  

How is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)


Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

Are the scriptures dark to me?  Have I have claimed to be "one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?"  I think you will have a difficult time finding that in one of my posts.

Your turn: When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  


Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)


Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

I did answer your question, Alfred, but maybe I misunderstood you. How is it that you think the scriptures are dark to me?  Where in this thread or any other did I ever claim to be one of those to whom "it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God"?

Alfred, when was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  Please answer my questions, which are considerably more straightforward than yours.  Please do not allow me to draw my own conclusions about you, which I will have to do without your answers.



Not so fast, you didn't answer. HOW is it you don't know? Don't you have the Holy Spirit? How is it you don't know?

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
 (1Jo 2:20 NKJ)

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God (1Co 2:12 NKJ)

I will freely admit that do not know all things.  (You may draw whatever conclusions you like from that.)  For instance, I do not know when you last attended church.  

Prove to me that "you know all things" (1 John 2:20) by telling me when was the last time you attended church.

You still aren't answering HOW (or WHY) you don't know these things from God given to His children to know, by His Spirit:

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

How is it YOU don't know these things freely given to us by God?
 (1Co 2:12 NKJ)

Well, since I have already admitted that I do not know all things, maybe I do not know the answer to your question.

But I am sure that you think that you do know all things, such as the date of your most recent church attendance.  Or maybe you do not know all things, after all.  If not, what does that say about you?

How can you not know when the text is this clear, I think you are evading the question:


NKJ  1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

Feel free to enlighten me, if you wish, for it is written "And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me?" (Acts 8:30-31)

Now please stop evading my question:  When precisely did you last attend church?  Anyone who knows all things will be able to answer this simple question.

In fact, anyone who knows all things will be able to answer this question, too: What have I got in my pocket?

You know, Alfred, now that I think about it, I should thank you for this verse:

Not so fast, you didn't answer. HOW is it you don't know? Don't you have the Holy Spirit? How is it you don't know?

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
 (1Jo 2:20 NKJ)

Alfred, according to your own method of interpreting scripture (sola scriptura), if you, Alfred, do not know all things, then you do not have an anointing from the Holy One, which you have interpreted above as having the Holy Spirit.  In other words, Alfred, from your own mouth, if you do not know all things, you do not have the Holy Spirit.  "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom. 8:9)

So I will give you a few options to choose from, in order to prove that you know all things, that you have an anointing from the Holy One, that you have the Holy Spirit, and that, according to your own method of interpreting scripture, you are, in fact, a Christian.

1) You can tell me the date of your most recent church attendance
2) You can tell me what I have got in my pocket
3) You can evade both questions (something you have repeatedly accused members, including me, of doing, and something I would not expect from a self-described "seasoned apologist")
4) You can interpret 1 John 2:20 for me
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 09:43:16 PM by tuesdayschild »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1353 on: October 25, 2010, 10:15:48 PM »
Alfred, I was going to drop this, but there is something about what you wrote that I don't understand. An answer may help me understand the way you interpret the Bible.


I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.

It is written:

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching (Heb 10:25 NKJ)

So I have not forsaken it by any means.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.

You claim regular faithful church attendance is our standard, but it appears to be a pretty straightforward reading of the text. You say that you rarely go to church, and that when you do, it is only when you feel like it, when it is convenient. That sounds to me like "the manner of some," since there are many who say they are Christians but who attend church rarely, when it is convenient to them.

So how do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

I haven't, and you haven't supported your claims Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable. I was told regular attendance at an Orthodox church, immersion in the tradition, would unveil apostolic doctrine.

But when I ask you interpret this verse, prove your claims, you fail to unveil the apostolic doctrine in this verse:

 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1Ti 2:15 NKJ)

Being you are a regular church goer, this should have been no problem for you.

Why is it a problem, doesn't Orthodox tradition make apostolic doctrine knowable, as you and others claim?

I never said "Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable."  You must have me confused with another member here.

I am not following the discussion you are having with others about 1 Tim. 2:15.  It does not interest me as much as your interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:15 Heb 10:25 (Edit: Oops!).  Alfred, simply saying that you haven't forsaken assembling together does not make it so, especially when you admitted in the same virtual breath that you have forsaken it.

How do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

Alfred, please answer my question.

Already did, you don't like the answer. I haven't forsaken it, I still attend.

Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)

Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

I see, you rarely attend, but you still attend, is that it?  When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  

What question would you like me to answer?  

How is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)


Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

Are the scriptures dark to me?  Have I have claimed to be "one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?"  I think you will have a difficult time finding that in one of my posts.

Your turn: When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  


Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)


Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

I did answer your question, Alfred, but maybe I misunderstood you. How is it that you think the scriptures are dark to me?  Where in this thread or any other did I ever claim to be one of those to whom "it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God"?

Alfred, when was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  Please answer my questions, which are considerably more straightforward than yours.  Please do not allow me to draw my own conclusions about you, which I will have to do without your answers.



Not so fast, you didn't answer. HOW is it you don't know? Don't you have the Holy Spirit? How is it you don't know?

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
 (1Jo 2:20 NKJ)

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God (1Co 2:12 NKJ)

I will freely admit that do not know all things.  (You may draw whatever conclusions you like from that.)  For instance, I do not know when you last attended church.  

Prove to me that "you know all things" (1 John 2:20) by telling me when was the last time you attended church.

You still aren't answering HOW (or WHY) you don't know these things from God given to His children to know, by His Spirit:

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

How is it YOU don't know these things freely given to us by God?
 (1Co 2:12 NKJ)

Well, since I have already admitted that I do not know all things, maybe I do not know the answer to your question.

But I am sure that you think that you do know all things, such as the date of your most recent church attendance.  Or maybe you do not know all things, after all.  If not, what does that say about you?

How can you not know when the text is this clear, I think you are evading the question:


NKJ  1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

Feel free to enlighten me, if you wish, for it is written "And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me?" (Acts 8:30-31)

Now please stop evading my question:  When precisely did you last attend church?  Anyone who knows all things will be able to answer this simple question.

In fact, anyone who knows all things will be able to answer this question, too: What have I got in my pocket?

You know, Alfred, now that I think about it, I should thank you for this verse:

Not so fast, you didn't answer. HOW is it you don't know? Don't you have the Holy Spirit? How is it you don't know?

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
 (1Jo 2:20 NKJ)

Alfred, according to your own method of interpreting scripture (sola scriptura), if you, Alfred, do not know all things, then you do not have an anointing from the Holy One, which you have interpreted above as having the Holy Spirit.  In other words, Alfred, from your own mouth, if you do not know all things, you do not have the Holy Spirit.  "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom. 8:9)

So I will give you a few options to choose from, in order to prove that you know all things, that you have an anointing from the Holy One, that you have the Holy Spirit, and that, according to your own method of interpreting scripture, you are, in fact, a Christian.

1) You can tell me the date of your most recent church attendance
2) You can tell me what I have got in my pocket
3) You can evade both questions (something you have repeatedly accused members, including me, of doing, and something I would not expect from a self-described "seasoned apologist")
4) You can interpret 1 John 2:20 for me

I can't give out personal information to someone who has not the Spirit of Christ making known to him the things of God.

Therefore I refuse your request for personal information.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 10:16:23 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1354 on: October 25, 2010, 10:26:46 PM »

I can't give out personal information to someone who has not the Spirit of Christ making known to him the things of God.

Therefore I refuse your request for personal information.

So now you have the ability to be able to discern who has the Spirit of Christ living within them and who doesn't?? You sir, are full of yourself.  >:(


Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1355 on: October 25, 2010, 10:49:17 PM »
I'll answer.

An old Cracker Jack Prize. Thirty seven cents. One Tums. A Pen and an old tissue.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1356 on: October 25, 2010, 10:57:30 PM »
You know, Alfred, now that I think about it, I should thank you for this verse:

Not so fast, you didn't answer. HOW is it you don't know? Don't you have the Holy Spirit? How is it you don't know?

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
 (1Jo 2:20 NKJ)

Alfred, according to your own method of interpreting scripture (sola scriptura), if you, Alfred, do not know all things, then you do not have an anointing from the Holy One, which you have interpreted above as having the Holy Spirit.  In other words, Alfred, from your own mouth, if you do not know all things, you do not have the Holy Spirit.  "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom. 8:9)

So I will give you a few options to choose from, in order to prove that you know all things, that you have an anointing from the Holy One, that you have the Holy Spirit, and that, according to your own method of interpreting scripture, you are, in fact, a Christian.

1) You can tell me the date of your most recent church attendance
2) You can tell me what I have got in my pocket
3) You can evade both questions (something you have repeatedly accused members, including me, of doing, and something I would not expect from a self-described "seasoned apologist")
4) You can interpret 1 John 2:20 for me

I can't give out personal information to someone who has not the Spirit of Christ making known to him the things of God.

Therefore I refuse your request for personal information.

Okay. I will ignore the insult for the moment, and I'll get back to the matter of your church attendance later. But that still leaves options 2, 3 and 4.

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1357 on: October 25, 2010, 11:02:20 PM »
I'll answer.

An old Cracker Jack Prize. Thirty seven cents. One Tums. A Pen and an old tissue.

Either that is a line from a movie, or you should empty your pockets once in a while.  :D

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1358 on: October 25, 2010, 11:02:33 PM »
You know, Alfred, now that I think about it, I should thank you for this verse:

Not so fast, you didn't answer. HOW is it you don't know? Don't you have the Holy Spirit? How is it you don't know?

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
 (1Jo 2:20 NKJ)

Alfred, according to your own method of interpreting scripture (sola scriptura), if you, Alfred, do not know all things, then you do not have an anointing from the Holy One, which you have interpreted above as having the Holy Spirit.  In other words, Alfred, from your own mouth, if you do not know all things, you do not have the Holy Spirit.  "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom. 8:9)

So I will give you a few options to choose from, in order to prove that you know all things, that you have an anointing from the Holy One, that you have the Holy Spirit, and that, according to your own method of interpreting scripture, you are, in fact, a Christian.

1) You can tell me the date of your most recent church attendance
2) You can tell me what I have got in my pocket
3) You can evade both questions (something you have repeatedly accused members, including me, of doing, and something I would not expect from a self-described "seasoned apologist")
4) You can interpret 1 John 2:20 for me

I can't give out personal information to someone who has not the Spirit of Christ making known to him the things of God.

Therefore I refuse your request for personal information.

Okay. I will ignore the insult for the moment, and I'll get back to the matter of your church attendance later. But that still leaves options 2, 3 and 4.

I won't give you any personal information, period.


I don't trust a man who can read this, tell me they don't know the things of God, and won't tell me how that can be:

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
 (1Co 2:12 NKJ)


Until you answer that question, I'll be ignoring your requests, its not a one way street with only me doing the answering...until you answer, ignore button is on.





« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 11:06:41 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1359 on: October 25, 2010, 11:05:48 PM »

2) You can tell me what I have got in my pocket


String or nothing!  Tricksy Bagginses.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1360 on: October 25, 2010, 11:07:53 PM »

2) You can tell me what I have got in my pocket


String or nothing!  Tricksy Bagginses.

I don't believe you are a former reformer.

Nothing you have said reminded me of the Reformed, not even terminology, nothing.

What do you claim to have been, and why would you leave the reformed?

What attracted you to Orthodoxy and repelled you from the Reformed?


If you don't want to answer, that's fine, I'll move to another subject.

I have no desire to embarrass you.

Perhaps your "former reformer" is just a handle you use and meaningless?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 11:15:08 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1361 on: October 25, 2010, 11:08:45 PM »
You know, Alfred, now that I think about it, I should thank you for this verse:

Not so fast, you didn't answer. HOW is it you don't know? Don't you have the Holy Spirit? How is it you don't know?

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
 (1Jo 2:20 NKJ)

Alfred, according to your own method of interpreting scripture (sola scriptura), if you, Alfred, do not know all things, then you do not have an anointing from the Holy One, which you have interpreted above as having the Holy Spirit.  In other words, Alfred, from your own mouth, if you do not know all things, you do not have the Holy Spirit.  "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom. 8:9)

So I will give you a few options to choose from, in order to prove that you know all things, that you have an anointing from the Holy One, that you have the Holy Spirit, and that, according to your own method of interpreting scripture, you are, in fact, a Christian.

1) You can tell me the date of your most recent church attendance
2) You can tell me what I have got in my pocket
3) You can evade both questions (something you have repeatedly accused members, including me, of doing, and something I would not expect from a self-described "seasoned apologist")
4) You can interpret 1 John 2:20 for me

I can't give out personal information to someone who has not the Spirit of Christ making known to him the things of God.

Therefore I refuse your request for personal information.

Okay. I will ignore the insult for the moment, and I'll get back to the matter of your church attendance later. But that still leaves options 2, 3 and 4.

I won't give you any personal information, period.


I don't trust a man who can read this, tell me they don't know the things of God, and won't tell me how that can be:

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
 (1Co 2:12 NKJ)


Until you answer that question, I'll be ignoring your requests, its not a one way street with only me doing the answering...until you answer, ignore button is on.


And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you beat a troll.  

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1362 on: October 25, 2010, 11:09:56 PM »
You know, Alfred, now that I think about it, I should thank you for this verse:

Not so fast, you didn't answer. HOW is it you don't know? Don't you have the Holy Spirit? How is it you don't know?

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
 (1Jo 2:20 NKJ)

Alfred, according to your own method of interpreting scripture (sola scriptura), if you, Alfred, do not know all things, then you do not have an anointing from the Holy One, which you have interpreted above as having the Holy Spirit.  In other words, Alfred, from your own mouth, if you do not know all things, you do not have the Holy Spirit.  "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom. 8:9)

So I will give you a few options to choose from, in order to prove that you know all things, that you have an anointing from the Holy One, that you have the Holy Spirit, and that, according to your own method of interpreting scripture, you are, in fact, a Christian.

1) You can tell me the date of your most recent church attendance
2) You can tell me what I have got in my pocket
3) You can evade both questions (something you have repeatedly accused members, including me, of doing, and something I would not expect from a self-described "seasoned apologist")
4) You can interpret 1 John 2:20 for me

I can't give out personal information to someone who has not the Spirit of Christ making known to him the things of God.

Therefore I refuse your request for personal information.

Okay. I will ignore the insult for the moment, and I'll get back to the matter of your church attendance later. But that still leaves options 2, 3 and 4.

I won't give you any personal information, period.


I don't trust a man who can read this, tell me they don't know the things of God, and won't tell me how that can be:

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
 (1Co 2:12 NKJ)


Until you answer that question, I'll be ignoring your requests, its not a one way street with only me doing the answering...until you answer, ignore button is on.


And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you beat a troll.  

You won? You confessed you don't know God, there is no win possible for you.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1363 on: October 25, 2010, 11:15:19 PM »
(Ahem)  You won't give us any personal information, Alfred?

You already told us what church you most recently belonged to.

And with a little help from Google, I found your home address .

I certainly wouldn't put that online (although YOU did - it's at the end of a paper you wrote and posted online yourself).

So why would you be hesitant to disclose a little thing like the date you last attended church (if ever)?
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline katherine 2001

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1364 on: October 25, 2010, 11:16:32 PM »

I can't give out personal information to someone who has not the Spirit of Christ making known to him the things of God.

Therefore I refuse your request for personal information.

So now you have the ability to be able to discern who has the Spirit of Christ living within them and who doesn't?? You sir, are full of yourself.  >:(



Evidently, Christ won't need to be the Judge on Judgment Day--after all, He has Alfred!  On a more serious note, Alfred, you are playing a very, very serious game here.  Christ alone will judge who is saved and who truly has the Holy Spirit, not you or anyone else will make that judgment.  After all, Alfred, what if Christ says that one of those whom you say doesn't have the Holy Spirit does have the Holy Spirit?  

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1365 on: October 25, 2010, 11:18:27 PM »
(Ahem)  You won't give us any personal information, Alfred?

You already told us what church you most recently belonged to.

And with a little help from Google, I found your home address .

I certainly wouldn't put that online (although YOU did - it's at the end of a paper you wrote and posted online yourself).

So why would you be hesitant to disclose a little thing like the date you last attended church (if ever)?

I won't give him any personal information, I don't trust him. Surely you notice his goal was to "beat the troll" and he declared victory. Hardly a Christian act.

What do you want to know, I think you are a wonderful Christian, we can agree to disagree agreeably, can't we?

PS: Don't kid yourself, there is no real anonymity on the NET, anyone can pay to learn everything about you, regardless the alias you used...its all accessible...easily hacked.



« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 11:28:33 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1366 on: October 25, 2010, 11:28:22 PM »

2) You can tell me what I have got in my pocket


String or nothing!  Tricksy Bagginses.

I don't believe you are a former reformer.

Nothing you have said reminded me of the Reformed, not even terminology, nothing.

What do you claim to have been, and why would you leave the reformed?

What attracted you to Orthodoxy and repelled you from the Reformed?


If you don't want to answer, that's fine, I'll move to another subject.

I have no desire to embarrass you.

Perhaps your "former reformer" is just a handle you use and meaningless?

Well, if you're after my "testimony" that can be found here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24724.0.html

Long story short, I was never "Reformed" in the Calvinist sense, but grew up in a heavily Evangelical denomination that is most certainly a product of the Reformation.  I also spent much of my young adult life trying to develop a formula that would "reform" the Protestant and Roman Catholic churches, my own 95 Thesis, if you would... I could never quite figure out what church door to nail it to, however.

Besides, "FormerEvangelical" just didn't have the same ring and "ProtestantProtestedTooMuch" just seemed too long  :)
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1367 on: October 25, 2010, 11:31:48 PM »

2) You can tell me what I have got in my pocket


String or nothing!  Tricksy Bagginses.

I don't believe you are a former reformer.

Nothing you have said reminded me of the Reformed, not even terminology, nothing.

What do you claim to have been, and why would you leave the reformed?

What attracted you to Orthodoxy and repelled you from the Reformed?


If you don't want to answer, that's fine, I'll move to another subject.

I have no desire to embarrass you.

Perhaps your "former reformer" is just a handle you use and meaningless?

Well, if you're after my "testimony" that can be found here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24724.0.html

Long story short, I was never "Reformed" in the Calvinist sense, but grew up in a heavily Evangelical denomination that is most certainly a product of the Reformation.  I also spent much of my young adult life trying to develop a formula that would "reform" the Protestant and Roman Catholic churches, my own 95 Thesis, if you would... I could never quite figure out what church door to nail it to, however.

Besides, "FormerEvangelical" just didn't have the same ring and "ProtestantProtestedTooMuch" just seemed too long  :)

Thanks. I suspected you weren't "Reformed" in the official sense, I consider their exegesis of scripture etc among the best available and have studied their materials extensively... and so noticed a lack of their influence in your posts. Nothing wrong with that, just wondered.

I'll check out your testimony now...be back later.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1368 on: October 25, 2010, 11:33:44 PM »
We could, except for the fact that you've behaved very DISagreeably on this thread.  And you haven't behaved much like a Christian.  (Note: I'm not saying you're NOT. Just that you don't display a whole lot of the fruits of the Spirit. ;D )
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1369 on: October 25, 2010, 11:41:29 PM »

2) You can tell me what I have got in my pocket


String or nothing!  Tricksy Bagginses.

I don't believe you are a former reformer.

Nothing you have said reminded me of the Reformed, not even terminology, nothing.

What do you claim to have been, and why would you leave the reformed?

What attracted you to Orthodoxy and repelled you from the Reformed?


If you don't want to answer, that's fine, I'll move to another subject.

I have no desire to embarrass you.

Perhaps your "former reformer" is just a handle you use and meaningless?

Well, if you're after my "testimony" that can be found here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24724.0.html

Long story short, I was never "Reformed" in the Calvinist sense, but grew up in a heavily Evangelical denomination that is most certainly a product of the Reformation.  I also spent much of my young adult life trying to develop a formula that would "reform" the Protestant and Roman Catholic churches, my own 95 Thesis, if you would... I could never quite figure out what church door to nail it to, however.

Besides, "FormerEvangelical" just didn't have the same ring and "ProtestantProtestedTooMuch" just seemed too long  :)

Certainly interesting. Incomprehensible, I just don't see the sacraments differently than Christ taught, as symbols, remembrances. But I've heard converted Catholics say similar things, they wanted structure, ritual.

My only real problem with Orthodoxy, are its icons...otherwise their Nicean Trinitarianism makes it part of the universal body of Christ.

Thanks for your testimony.


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1370 on: October 25, 2010, 11:44:25 PM »

2) You can tell me what I have got in my pocket


String or nothing!  Tricksy Bagginses.

I don't believe you are a former reformer.

Nothing you have said reminded me of the Reformed, not even terminology, nothing.

What do you claim to have been, and why would you leave the reformed?

What attracted you to Orthodoxy and repelled you from the Reformed?


If you don't want to answer, that's fine, I'll move to another subject.

I have no desire to embarrass you.

Perhaps your "former reformer" is just a handle you use and meaningless?

Well, if you're after my "testimony" that can be found here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24724.0.html

Long story short, I was never "Reformed" in the Calvinist sense, but grew up in a heavily Evangelical denomination that is most certainly a product of the Reformation.  I also spent much of my young adult life trying to develop a formula that would "reform" the Protestant and Roman Catholic churches, my own 95 Thesis, if you would... I could never quite figure out what church door to nail it to, however.

Besides, "FormerEvangelical" just didn't have the same ring and "ProtestantProtestedTooMuch" just seemed too long  :)

Thanks. I suspected you weren't "Reformed" in the official sense, I consider their exegesis of scripture etc among the best available and have studied their materials extensively... and so noticed a lack of their influence in your posts. Nothing wrong with that, just wondered.

I'll check out your testimony now...be back later.

Oh, if you had caught me fifteen years ago it would probably be different.  RC Sproul was one of the few preachers at the time I thought actually had any books worth reading, and my uncle had just gotten back from the L'Abri community in Switzerland forced me to read through all of Francis Schaeffer (the Sr)'s books before I was allowed to touch his CS Lewis collection.

I would have still quoted from "The Hobbit", though. ;)
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1371 on: October 25, 2010, 11:49:24 PM »
We could, except for the fact that you've behaved very DISagreeably on this thread.  And you haven't behaved much like a Christian.  (Note: I'm not saying you're NOT. Just that you don't display a whole lot of the fruits of the Spirit. ;D )


I admit to that, I'm not perfect, and I am a fighter, I do come out swinging when swung at.

BUT I don't ask forgiveness...I've gotten as good as I gave...I expect heat whenever light is handled...

Never do Christians argue with each other, as milktoasts.

AND I'm not convinced Christ and His apostles would be, if they posted here. I suspect you would be shocked how "unchristian" they were:

 7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
 8 `These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
 (Mat 15:7-9 NKJ)

 23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men." (Mat 16:23 NKJ)

 12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast.
 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light
 (2Co 11:12-14 NKJ)

 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:8 NKJ)

Just a few examples of unchristian acts by Christians in scripture, "unchristian" as defined today that is.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 11:54:30 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1372 on: October 26, 2010, 12:01:09 AM »

2) You can tell me what I have got in my pocket


String or nothing!  Tricksy Bagginses.

I don't believe you are a former reformer.

Nothing you have said reminded me of the Reformed, not even terminology, nothing.

What do you claim to have been, and why would you leave the reformed?

What attracted you to Orthodoxy and repelled you from the Reformed?


If you don't want to answer, that's fine, I'll move to another subject.

I have no desire to embarrass you.

Perhaps your "former reformer" is just a handle you use and meaningless?

Well, if you're after my "testimony" that can be found here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24724.0.html

Long story short, I was never "Reformed" in the Calvinist sense, but grew up in a heavily Evangelical denomination that is most certainly a product of the Reformation.  I also spent much of my young adult life trying to develop a formula that would "reform" the Protestant and Roman Catholic churches, my own 95 Thesis, if you would... I could never quite figure out what church door to nail it to, however.

Besides, "FormerEvangelical" just didn't have the same ring and "ProtestantProtestedTooMuch" just seemed too long  :)

Thanks. I suspected you weren't "Reformed" in the official sense, I consider their exegesis of scripture etc among the best available and have studied their materials extensively... and so noticed a lack of their influence in your posts. Nothing wrong with that, just wondered.

I'll check out your testimony now...be back later.

Oh, if you had caught me fifteen years ago it would probably be different.  RC Sproul was one of the few preachers at the time I thought actually had any books worth reading, and my uncle had just gotten back from the L'Abri community in Switzerland forced me to read through all of Francis Schaeffer (the Sr)'s books before I was allowed to touch his CS Lewis collection.

I would have still quoted from "The Hobbit", though. ;)

You must be the center of attention at family gatherings, with all those Protestant relatives.

I liked the Hobbit, the movies also.

This thread is getting boring...its time we heat it up again...

Perhaps you can answer this, if all grace comes through Mary, how does she position herself between Omnipresent God, and the Body of Christ. There doesn't seem to be much space for her to channel grace from Him to us.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1373 on: October 26, 2010, 12:07:31 AM »
What do the Orthodox believe about Catholic miracles...

The appearances of Mary.

The Lady of Fatima visions

The Eucharist miracle of Lanciano, Italy 8th Century A.D.

What are they, real or fake?
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1374 on: October 26, 2010, 12:22:01 AM »
Alfred, Why do you care what the Orthodox think about Catholic miracles?  

Your "Sufficiency of Scripture" section of your Church's Distinctives rejects all revelations, visions, words of prophecy or insights from modern psychology.


Quote
Contrary to what many are teaching today, there is no need for additional revelations, visions, words of prophecy, or insights from modern psychology. In contrast to the theories of men, God’s Word is true and absolutely comprehensive. Rather than seeking something more than God’s glorious revelation, Christians need only to study and obey what they already have. Scripture is sufficient.

Your Church's issue appears to be with modern psychology ... the Scientologists share that same concern.  How is your Church different from Scientology?  Do you think that the Orthodox Church stems from modern psychology (e.g. Freud) because the ancient Greeks, while they recognized mania as a mental and physical illness, surely didn't invent modern psychology.  ;)

For those who want to analyze the quote in depth, let me point you to Critiques of the book, Our Sufficiency in Christ, where the above quote was adapted from the book cited in the hyperlink.
 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 12:27:25 AM by SolEX01 »

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1375 on: October 26, 2010, 12:31:27 AM »
Well, Alfred, where did Christ's Body come from in the first place if not through Mary? ;)

And since God told us (through Scripture) to "put on Christ", then Christ's mother becomes our mother too.

See how easy that was?  Now, when are you going to church? ;)
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1376 on: October 26, 2010, 12:35:15 AM »
Quote
Contrary to what many are teaching today, there is no need for additional revelations, visions, words of prophecy, or insights from modern psychology. In contrast to the theories of men, God’s Word is true and absolutely comprehensive. Rather than seeking something more than God’s glorious revelation, Christians need only to study and obey what they already have. Scripture is sufficient.

Sounds like Practical Atheism. Sadly it also sounds like Alfred's religion (correct me if I'm wrong) :

<snip>

I have here introduced the notion of “practical atheism,” meaning by it, that although a person may espouse a belief in God, it is quite possible for that belief to be so removed from everyday life, that God’s non-existence would make little difference.

Surprisingly, I would place some forms of Christian fundamentalism within this category (as I have defined it). I recall a group affiliated with some particular Church of Christ, who regularly evangelized our apartment complex when I lived in Columbia, S.C. They were also a constant presence on the campus of the local university. They were absolute inerrantists on the subject of the Holy Scriptures. They were equally adamant that all miracles had ceased with the completion of the canon of the New Testament. Christians today only relate to God through the Bible.

Such a group can be called “Biblicists,” or something, but, in the terminology I am using here, I would describe them as “practical atheists.” Though they had great, even absolutist, faith in the Holy Scriptures, they had no relationship with a God who is living and active and directly involved in their world. Had their notion of a God died, and left somebody else in charge of His heaven, it would not have made much difference so long as the rules did not change.

I realize that this is strong criticism, but it is important for us to understand what is at stake. The more the secular world is exalted as secular, that is, having an existence somehow independent of God, the more we will live as practical atheists – perhaps practical atheists who pray (but for what do we pray?). I would also suggest that the more secular the world becomes for Christians, the more political Christians will become. We will necessarily resort to the same tools and weapons as those who do not believe.

Christianity that has purged the Church of the sacraments, and of the sacramental, have only ideas which can be substituted – the result being the eradication of God from the world in all ways other than theoretical. Of course, since much of modern Christianity functions on this ideological level rather than the level of the God-Who-is among-us, much of Christianity functions in a mode of practical atheism. The more ideological the faith, the more likely its proponents are to expouse what amounts to a practical atheism.

Orthodox Christianity, with its wealth of dogma and Tradition, could easily be translated into this model – and I have encountered it in such a form. But it is a falsification of Orthodoxy. Sacraments must not be quasi-magical moments in which a carefully defined grace is transmitted to us – they must, instead, threaten to swallow up the whole world. The medieval limitation of sacraments to the number 7 comes far too close to removing sacraments from the world itself. Orthodoxy seems to have declared that there are 7 sacraments solely as a response to Western Reform and Catholic arguments. In some sense, everything is a sacrament – the whole world is a sacrament.

However, if we only say that the whole world is a sacrament, soon nothing will be a sacrament. Thus the sacraments recognized as such by the Church, should serve not just for pointing to themselves, but also pointing to God and to everything around us. Holy Baptism should change all water. The Cross should change all trees, etc. But Baptism gives the definition: water does not define Baptism. Neither do trees define the Cross. Nor does man define Christ. Christ defines what it is to be human, etc.

The more truly sacramental becomes the Christian life, the more thoroughly grounded it is in the God-Who-is-among-us. Such a God is indeed, “everywhere present and filling all things.” Our options are between such a God – as proclaimed in the New Testament – or a God who need be no God at all for He is removed from us anyway.

At the Divine Liturgy, before approaching the Communion Cup, Orthodox Christians pray together:

"I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ the Son of the living God who camest into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. I believe also that this is truly Thine own most pure Body, and that this is truly Thine own precious Blood. Therefore, I pray Thee: have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, committed in knowledge or in ignorance. And make me worthy to partake without condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries, for the remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting. Amen."

There is not a single hint of a distance between us and God. At this point, having prepared for communion, having confessed our sins, we stand at the very center of the universe, before the God Who Is, before the God with Whom Moses conversed on Mt. Sinai, and we receive His true Body and Blood.

Such realism of a first-storey character makes bold claims about the nature of the God whom we worship and how it is that we relate to Him. It’s removal from the “end of miracles” deism of some Biblicists could not be more complete.

There is a dialog that may take place between Christians and atheists. But there is, prior to that, an even more important dialog to be had, and that is with the practical atheism of Christians who have exiled God from the world around us. Such practical atheism is a severe distortion of the Christian faith and an extremely poor substitute for the real thing.

<snip>

- http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/christianity-in-a-one-storey-universe/  (mods: this is a long quotation but it is a small part of a much longer blog; please keep it intact if possible)
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 12:43:10 AM by bogdan »

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1377 on: October 26, 2010, 12:43:54 AM »

2) You can tell me what I have got in my pocket


String or nothing!  Tricksy Bagginses.

I don't believe you are a former reformer.

Nothing you have said reminded me of the Reformed, not even terminology, nothing.

What do you claim to have been, and why would you leave the reformed?

What attracted you to Orthodoxy and repelled you from the Reformed?


If you don't want to answer, that's fine, I'll move to another subject.

I have no desire to embarrass you.

Perhaps your "former reformer" is just a handle you use and meaningless?

Well, if you're after my "testimony" that can be found here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24724.0.html

Long story short, I was never "Reformed" in the Calvinist sense, but grew up in a heavily Evangelical denomination that is most certainly a product of the Reformation.  I also spent much of my young adult life trying to develop a formula that would "reform" the Protestant and Roman Catholic churches, my own 95 Thesis, if you would... I could never quite figure out what church door to nail it to, however.

Besides, "FormerEvangelical" just didn't have the same ring and "ProtestantProtestedTooMuch" just seemed too long  :)

Certainly interesting. Incomprehensible, I just don't see the sacraments differently than Christ taught, as symbols, remembrances. But I've heard converted Catholics say similar things, they wanted structure, ritual.

My only real problem with Orthodoxy, are its icons...otherwise their Nicean Trinitarianism makes it part of the universal body of Christ.

Thanks for your testimony.




Well, sacraments certainly contain elements of the symbolic, but they refer to an underlying reality as well.  The entirety of Christian belief is predicated upon change and the infusion of the worldly with the divine.  

Start off with the Christian himself, the Old Man dies, the New Man lives (yet not him, but Christ in him).  One's heart doesn't stop beating upon the moment of conversion, the brainwaves continue to function, yet still he lives a new life.  This is a reality that must be comprehended mystically, spiritually.  

Next, we have each and every other Christian we meet.  Christ is in them, as He is in us, but when I look at them with my physical eyes I don't see a thirty year old carpenter from Nazareth, I cannot see nail scars on the hands nor scratches upon the brow.  There is evidence to be seen, certainly, but it cannot be taken at a glance, and it must be taken in faith.

More, we are assured of Christ's presence where two or three are gathered in His Name.  Aside from icons (and in Protestant churches that would not be so base at have icons present, the stain glass windows and frescoes), if you glance about the room you will not see Him.

We are assured over and again in the Scripture that Christ is present in each of these cases, and we take (all of us, whether Evangelical or Orthodox) this to be in some sense literal, though not physical.  

Thus we come to the Sacraments themselves.  In each instance we have what we are told is some sort of transformation, a transformation that makes no sense to the senses.  Bread becomes flesh, wine becomes blood, a man and a woman are united and become one.  Certainly when I receive the Eucharist I don't taste flesh or blood, when I look at a married couple I don't see some two-headed beast out of Greek mythology, but I know these things are transformed, just as I have been transformed.  Just as the worldly matter of my flesh is now somehow a housing (temple) of the Divine, just as I have taken on life in Christ and hope for resurrection and eternal life, so too has the corruptible nature of bread and wine become a vehicle for Divine Flesh and Blood (not the dead flesh and clotting blood of the Crucifixion, but the Living and Eternal Flesh of the Victorious Resurrected, Everliving Word), and so too does procreation become a sacred image of God's love and Christ's sacrifice (again, not just the Crucifixion, but the willingness to empty Himself, take on the form of a slave, and be made into the likeness of man) for the renewal of life in this world.

For marriage we have the words of the Trinity at the creation of Eve and Christ's words when He spoke on divorce "they shall be one flesh".  

For the Eucharist, we have not only Christ's words at the Last Supper (Who, being present in Time, spoke of a timeless Truth), but St Paul's warning to the Corinthians that to eat and drink unworthily can bring about damnation, sickness, and physical death.  A symbol cannot kill, I cannot be harmed by the representation of a bullet fired from a Nerf gun (despite what my mother might have said about my eye), but a bullet fired from a real gun will.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1378 on: October 26, 2010, 12:54:16 AM »
Gee Alfred, at least some of your coreligionists (well, I think they are your coreligionists; then again, all Megachurches look the same to me) still believe in miracles, a representative example provided from here.

Here is a link to their statement of faith.


Quote
Healed of Viral Meningitis and Out of Coma, September 2010

<name redacted> has miraculously recovered from being in a coma for several days, and the Lord healed her of viral meningitis after much prayer on her behalf. She is on the mend and making good progress. All glory to Jesus, the Healer!

Miracle Scholarship Received, August 2010

<name redacted>’s son had a desire to attend Oral Roberts University, but he was hindered because of lack of finances. The University had used up all of their scholarship funding, so it looked impossible.... has been praying with ... about this situation, and the ... family received a letter from ORU stating that funding for their son had become available! Their son is now at ORU, by God’s grace. Thank You, Father!

A Financial Miracle! August 2010

<name redacted> shared another blessing that she received and this one was unexpected. She received a lump sum financial award as well as an increase in her monthly income! She needed both of these blessings greatly, and she gives God all the honor and glory. Hallelujah!

Good Medical Report, August 2010

<name redacted>, a senior citizen, shared that her physicians were concerned about her brain circulation because of the strokes she had been having. They ran a test and discovered that the circulation to her brain was good! She is praising the Lord for this good report!
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 12:56:36 AM by SolEX01 »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1379 on: October 26, 2010, 12:54:22 AM »
Alfred, Why do you care what the Orthodox think about Catholic miracles?  

Your "Sufficiency of Scripture" section of your Church's Distinctives rejects all revelations, visions, words of prophecy or insights from modern psychology.


Quote
Contrary to what many are teaching today, there is no need for additional revelations, visions, words of prophecy, or insights from modern psychology. In contrast to the theories of men, God’s Word is true and absolutely comprehensive. Rather than seeking something more than God’s glorious revelation, Christians need only to study and obey what they already have. Scripture is sufficient.

Your Church's issue appears to be with modern psychology ... the Scientologists share that same concern.  How is your Church different from Scientology?  Do you think that the Orthodox Church stems from modern psychology (e.g. Freud) because the ancient Greeks, while they recognized mania as a mental and physical illness, surely didn't invent modern psychology.  ;)

For those who want to analyze the quote in depth, let me point you to Critiques of the book, Our Sufficiency in Christ, where the above quote was adapted from the book cited in the hyperlink.
 

Its sad, your apologetic that is. The straw man you created nearly kicked your butt.

Tongues, prophecy and knowledge clearly ended during the NT period:

 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)

Rightly the church sees an analogy to the completion of scripture and these gifts, here:

 8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
 10 But when that which is perfect (τέλειον) has come, then that which is in part (μέρους) will be done away. (1Co 13:8-10 NKJ)

The partial revelation of prophecies, tongues, (revelatory) knowledge will vanish when the Complete (Revelation) arrives.

The analogy to scripture, its the complete revelation, wasn't lost on us CESSATIONISTS. (Look it up).

The text does not imply these gifts will remain till the Complete comes, Paul doesn't know when it will come, and He is not talking about the persistence of the gifts. His intent was to show these partial gifts, which were so coveted by the Corinthians, are nothing compared to the complete revelation we will have when the Kingdom of God comes.




For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1380 on: October 26, 2010, 12:59:39 AM »
Gee Alfred, at least some of your coreligionists (well, I think they are your coreligionists; then again, all Megachurches look the same to me) still believe in miracles, a representative example provided from here.

Here is a link to their statement of faith.


Quote
Healed of Viral Meningitis and Out of Coma, September 2010

<name redacted> has miraculously recovered from being in a coma for several days, and the Lord healed her of viral meningitis after much prayer on her behalf. She is on the mend and making good progress. All glory to Jesus, the Healer!

Miracle Scholarship Received, August 2010

<name redacted>’s son had a desire to attend Oral Roberts University, but he was hindered because of lack of finances. The University had used up all of their scholarship funding, so it looked impossible.... has been praying with ... about this situation, and the ... family received a letter from ORU stating that funding for their son had become available! Their son is now at ORU, by God’s grace. Thank You, Father!

A Financial Miracle! August 2010

<name redacted> shared another blessing that she received and this one was unexpected. She received a lump sum financial award as well as an increase in her monthly income! She needed both of these blessings greatly, and she gives God all the honor and glory. Hallelujah!

Good Medical Report, August 2010

<name redacted>, a senior citizen, shared that her physicians were concerned about her brain circulation because of the strokes she had been having. They ran a test and discovered that the circulation to her brain was good! She is praising the Lord for this good report!

They are our coreligionists...and like you, they are wrong.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 01:00:07 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline authio

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1381 on: October 26, 2010, 01:03:25 AM »
The partial revelation of prophecies, tongues, (revelatory) knowledge will vanish when the Complete (Revelation) arrives.

How long have you (personally) been waiting for it?
Christ is risen!
Cristo ha resucitado!
Христос Воскресе!
Χριστός Ανέστη!
 المسيح قام

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1382 on: October 26, 2010, 01:04:52 AM »
Its sad, your apologetic that is. The straw man you created nearly kicked your butt.

Oh, I created a straw men?  I don't see one and I don't think you knocked it down because I went after the source for your own Church's statement of faith and others have compared it to atheism.

The analogy to scripture, its the complete revelation, wasn't lost on us CESSATIONISTS. (Look it up).]

I looked it up and concluded that cessationism is another man-made ideology created in 1918.  See how far astray your obedience to man made creations has lead you?

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1383 on: October 26, 2010, 01:10:40 AM »
They are our coreligionists...and like you, they are wrong.

Why are they wrong?   ???

Can you explain where the Family Life Christian Center has erred because they still believe in the miraculous power of the Lord while you believe that such power ended on Pentecost even though 1,885 years passed before B.B. Warfield revived the Biblical Inerrancy movement with his epic work, Counterfeit Miracles?  So do you obey the beliefs of B.B. Howard?  Do we need to dissect the 1978 Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy?

Although we can start with Article I:

WE DENY  that the Scriptures receive their authority from the Church, tradition, or any other human source.  

Article I sounds like a man-made opinion inspired by an organization which ultimately disbanded in 1988.

How many of those thousands of people who worship and tithe in your Megachurch are aware that their statement of faith is a man made ideology less than 100 years old?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 01:24:08 AM by SolEX01 »

Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1384 on: October 26, 2010, 01:14:25 AM »
What do the Orthodox believe about Catholic miracles...

The appearances of Mary.

The Lady of Fatima visions

The Eucharist miracle of Lanciano, Italy 8th Century A.D.

What are they, real or fake?



Most of us don't see anything wrong with the Lady of Guadalupe as well as with other South American appearances:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=26499.0 (Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe)

and
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,507.msg4302/topicseen.html#msg4302 (Metropolitan Herman visited Mexico)
Quote:
"Metropolitan Herman and the Archbishop also visited the Catholic Archbishop in the Metropolitan Cathedral of Mexico City, and venerated the icon of Our Lady at the Shrine of Our Lady Of Guadalupe, where they were welcomed by the Superior of the Bassilica, Mons. Diego Monroy."



« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 01:24:39 AM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1385 on: October 26, 2010, 01:20:01 AM »
?? So FLCC is your church, except you never go there and they're wrong about just about everything? and what they're right about, the Orthodox are wrong about? ??

Oh, and Alfred, you need to read more of the threads here - as I'm constantly reminded, THE ORTHODOX ARE NOT ROMAN CATHOLICS!! ;D
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1386 on: October 26, 2010, 01:20:45 AM »
How dare you call Alfred's religious smörgåsbord into question?!

Alfred accuses us of being nebulous, yet we only accept what the Church has given us to accept.

Meanwhile he picks and chooses whatever he likes [read: whatever the Holy Spirit "tells" him to pick] from a host of modern ideologies and pieces them together with the exegesis that best suits his fancy. It's an old trick, and it's why he has to contend with 30000+ denominations that all claim to be true—on the Bible's authority—yet disagree on core dogma. Talk about God being the author of confusion.

But Alfred's faith is the True Faith. Sure, he's the only one in this world hold who holds his exact set of beliefs, but hey, God isn't picky. As long as you think Jesus is a cool guy and the Bible is pretty neat, you're all set. (Except you dirty Orthodox and Catholics, you cannabalistic idolators.)
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 01:22:04 AM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1387 on: October 26, 2010, 01:23:16 AM »
They are our coreligionists...and like you, they are wrong.

Why are they wrong?   ???

Can you explain where the Family Life Christian Center has erred because they still believe in the miraculous power of the Lord while you believe that such power ended on Pentecost even though 1,885 years passed before B.B. Warfield revived the movement with his epic work, Counterfeit Miracles?  So do you obey the beliefs of B.B. Howard?  Do we need to dissect the 1978 Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy?

Although we can start with Article I:

WE DENY  that the Scriptures receive their authority from the Church, tradition, or any other human source. 

Sounds like an opinion which is man-made to me.

How many of those thousands of people who worship and tithe in your Megachurch are aware that their statement of faith is a man made ideology less than 100 years old?


I cited the scripture that proves my position...here it is again, God's confirming is spoken of in the "past tense" (indicative aorist).

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1388 on: October 26, 2010, 01:25:14 AM »
?? So FLCC is your church, except you never go there and they're wrong about just about everything? and what they're right about, the Orthodox are wrong about? ??

Oh, and Alfred, you need to read more of the threads here - as I'm constantly reminded, THE ORTHODOX ARE NOT ROMAN CATHOLICS!! ;D

My eyes are glazed over already...no doubt cataracts are forming as we speak, and I should read more?
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1389 on: October 26, 2010, 01:26:17 AM »
Isn't the fact that this thread is still puttering along after 3 months enough of a "sign and wonder" for you? ;)
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1390 on: October 26, 2010, 01:26:39 AM »
I cited the scripture that proves my position...

Yawn. So has every other heretic who has come down the pike. Got anything else?

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1391 on: October 26, 2010, 01:29:22 AM »
I cited the scripture that proves my position...here it is again, God's confirming is spoken of in the "past tense" (indicative aorist).

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)

You need verses 1 and 2 for the above passage to make any sense to you.  I could use the same verses you cited, plus Hebrews 2:1-2, to repudiate your flawed philosophy.  Your pastors reject modern psychology; however, your pastors have embraced their own idols authored by those like B.B. Warfield and the signatories to the 1978 Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1392 on: October 26, 2010, 01:29:48 AM »
How dare you call Alfred's religious smörgåsbord into question?!

Alfred accuses us of being nebulous, yet we only accept what the Church has given us to accept.

Meanwhile he picks and chooses whatever he likes [read: whatever the Holy Spirit "tells" him to pick] from a host of modern ideologies and pieces them together with the exegesis that best suits his fancy. It's an old trick, and it's why he has to contend with 30000+ denominations that all claim to be true—on the Bible's authority—yet disagree on core dogma. Talk about God being the author of confusion.

But Alfred's faith is the True Faith. Sure, he's the only one in this world hold who holds his exact set of beliefs, but hey, God isn't picky. As long as you think Jesus is a cool guy and the Bible is pretty neat, you're all set. (Except you dirty Orthodox and Catholics, you cannabalistic idolators.)

Mainline Christendom (including Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) agree on the basics...in fact, the late Dr Walter Martin once said during a Melodyland speech I attended, that some students calculated the level of agreement to be about 80%.

Cults disagree, and I blame the Orthodox for all the cults. You guys were first, Christian unity was yours to screw up...and that you did.

So every schism can be rightly traced back to you, a kind of "schismatic succession."
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 01:30:25 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1393 on: October 26, 2010, 01:32:06 AM »
?? So FLCC is your church, except you never go there and they're wrong about just about everything? and what they're right about, the Orthodox are wrong about? ??

Oh, and Alfred, you need to read more of the threads here - as I'm constantly reminded, THE ORTHODOX ARE NOT ROMAN CATHOLICS!! ;D

My eyes are glazed over already...no doubt cataracts are forming as we speak, and I should read more?

The truth is starting to hurt for you with the formation of cataracts.  Paul was blinded for 3 days....

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1394 on: October 26, 2010, 01:32:43 AM »
AHA - you just admitted that the Orthodox of today are the same as the original Orthodox Church!!

Congrats, Alfred, that's a real breakthrough!!!
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)