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Offline Irish Hermit

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Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow
« on: May 24, 2010, 04:46:59 AM »

A Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow Is Born

The common objective: the "new evangelization" of Europe. A delegation of the Russian Orthodox Church visits the Vatican, which publishes an anthology of the patriarch's writings. A meeting between Kirill and Benedict XVI keeps getting closer

by Sandro Magister





ROME, May 24, 2010 – Benedict XVI will soon create a new "pontifical council" expressly dedicated to the "new evangelization." Not for mission countries where the congregation "de propaganda fide" is already at work. But for the countries of ancient Christian tradition that are today in danger of losing the faith.

Pope Joseph Ratzinger wants to link his pontificate to this initiative. And this was the main topic that he discussed one morning in the spring of 2009, at Castel Gandolfo, with four prominent cardinals he had called for consultation: Camillo Ruini, Angelo Bagnasco, Christoph Schönborn, and Angelo Scola, the last being the most resolute in promoting the institution of the new office.

Meanwhile, one great ally has already united with the pope from outside of the Catholic Church, in this enterprise of a new evangelization.

This great ally is the Russian Orthodox Church.

Extract from

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343399?eng=y


Offline StJohn978

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Re: Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2010, 05:29:26 AM »
This is what I am going to say about Bishop Hilarion.




I've heard what Hilarion has to say about the Theology of St Issac of Syria, you know, the theology that he (bishop Hilarion) just found and translated. The eschatological theology about how the God does not tell the truth about eternal hell.


Because bishop Hilarion states that it is 'blasphemous' that God, who's 'mercifulness' is 'too great' to allow us to suffer eternal hell.


Well let me just tell you right now.... That theology is bologna.


God states it very clearly in the Gospels and New Testament about the punishment.



It is impossible to reach the perfect love which St John is speaking of without first having introductory fear. The introductory fear is the fear of eternal hell, the fear of the SLAVE.

1John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love


The second state of fear is the state of the WAGED LABORER, who does good through HOPE of receiving a reward... But if the introductory fear of hell is NOT eternal, then there still is HOPE of being delivered from it... But how are we going to reach the state of the hired waged laborer without the introductory fear of ETERNAL hell? You can't. Because (if you follow bishop Hilarion)you already KNOW that you are going to heaven in the end.... So basically, you know that you will receive your HOPED reward anyways.

So 'St Issacs' theology messes everything up in a HUGE way.



St Dorotheos tells us how we reach perfect fear which = perfect love, but you can't reach the perfect love without the introductory fear of eternal hell.

Perfect love is the state of the SONS OF GOD.

How can we possibly be perfected in love as St John says, without the fear of ETERNAL hell??

1John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love


Listen to what one of the most blessed saints of the Orthodox church has to say about the fear of God:

Audiobook:

http://philokalia.org/Abba%20Dorotheos/AD04.MP3



I'm sorry, but I bought his audio recording about St Isaac theology (they say its st issacs, but I myself, really doubt this)

http://www.orthodoxtapes.org/catalog/st_isaac_the_syrian.html



He's trying to teach us that pergatory exists in Orthodox Theology.

This is something which has seriously POISONED my own spiritual life.


Thats what it is, PERGATORY, Hilarion is preaching pergatory.

http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/6_19


Heresy is nothing but man's egotism and the devils hatred for us:

On heresy:

http://www.pantocrator.net/en/logos/c_z/on_faith/046_On_Heresy.mp3


« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 05:33:17 AM by StJohn978 »

Offline stashko

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Re: Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2010, 06:09:57 AM »
Ba humbug Humbug i say.... >:( He Should be defrocked,including the Russian patriarch that's allowing this ,,,while at it include the Serbian Patriarch and most of it's synod as well......
I vote that Metropolitan Athanasios Replaces them All,  he tells it like it is ....God Grant Him Many Years ..... ;D
WE Don't Need Rome ......Period ...... >:(

On News Yahoo religious section The pope of rome is preaching ethic's in world economy .....Right....

Scripture warns us of the Great falling away from God ,It is Starting with  these Ecumenist.....Christ says when he comes back will he find any faithful left....
,
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 06:32:12 AM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2010, 08:57:43 AM »

A Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow Is Born

The common objective: the "new evangelization" of Europe. A delegation of the Russian Orthodox Church visits the Vatican, which publishes an anthology of the patriarch's writings. A meeting between Kirill and Benedict XVI keeps getting closer

by Sandro Magister





ROME, May 24, 2010 – Benedict XVI will soon create a new "pontifical council" expressly dedicated to the "new evangelization." Not for mission countries where the congregation "de propaganda fide" is already at work. But for the countries of ancient Christian tradition that are today in danger of losing the faith.

Pope Joseph Ratzinger wants to link his pontificate to this initiative. And this was the main topic that he discussed one morning in the spring of 2009, at Castel Gandolfo, with four prominent cardinals he had called for consultation: Camillo Ruini, Angelo Bagnasco, Christoph Schönborn, and Angelo Scola, the last being the most resolute in promoting the institution of the new office.

Meanwhile, one great ally has already united with the pope from outside of the Catholic Church, in this enterprise of a new evangelization.

This great ally is the Russian Orthodox Church.

Extract from

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343399?eng=y



Confusion upon Confusion!

Rome does not need to bear Orthodox burdens:

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/01/why-russia-wants-its-orthodox-churches.html

Tuesday, January 26, 2010
Why Russia Wants Its Orthodox Churches Back

BRUCE CRUMLEY
Sunday, Jan. 24, 2010
TIME Magazine

Though not even two decades have passed since the Soviet state collapsed in 1991, the Orthodox Russians who came to France to flee communism say they're starting to view Moscow with mistrust again. The reason: the recent move by Russia to take control of a dazzling Orthodox cathedral built in Nice during the reign of Czar Nicholas II, which some opponents say is part a wider, nationalistic power play by Moscow to regain symbols of Russia's historical, cultural and religious grandeur abroad.

The tussle centers on the Cathedral of Saint Nicholas — a breathtaking church topped with spires and domes that was built in 1912 on land that Nicholas' grandfather Alexander II had purchased half a century earlier. Initially intended as a place of worship for the Russian aristocrats and industrialists who flocked to the Côte d'Azur before the 1917 Russian Revolution, the cathedral became a spiritual and cultural focal point for the mass of exiles who fled to Nice during the Soviet era. Since the fall of communism nearly 19 years ago, the so-called white Russian community and its offspring have been joined by Russian jet-setters who've grown extremely wealthy under the country's current leadership and bought pricey mansions in Nice to use as their second homes.

To the Russian diaspora, as well as the 85,000 paying tourists who visit the church every year, the Cathedral of Saint Nicholas has represented a slice of Mother Russia on the shores of the Mediterranean. And that's exactly the logic the Russian government used to win a court case in France on Jan. 20 that recognized Moscow's ownership of the church. The Nice Russian Orthodox Cultural Association (ACOR), which managed the church under a 99-year lease it signed with the czarist regime in 1909, had maintained that it effectively inherited the cathedral when Russia's royal family was executed during the revolution. But the court upheld the Russian government's position that since the czarists had bought the land and built the church using state money, the cathedral remains the property of the Russian government, meaning that Moscow could legally reclaim it now that ACOR's lease has expired. Decades of Soviet uninterest in the property, the court decided, did not undermine Russia's entitlement to it today.

ACOR, which says it will appeal the ruling, has derided the case as yet another attempt by Russian leaders to manipulate the Orthodox Church for political and nationalistic purposes. Under the Soviet regime, communist leaders enlisted Russian Orthodox officials to fan patriotism and encourage support for the state among the population, in return for which the authorities held back from stamping out the religion for good. Now detractors say that Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and his government allies are similarly seeking to gain public support by reclaiming relics of Russia's former greatness abroad to stoke patriotism among voters.

"It's a tradition that goes back to Ivan the Terrible and Peter the Great, in which political leaders used symbols of Russian grandeur — including an entirely submissive church — to create greater support for the regime," says Jean Gueit, rector of the Nice cathedral. "Russian society has been so disoriented and adrift following the changes of the past 20 years that Putin is playing the old nationalist game to snap people out of it by responding to simplistic messages and emotions. Part of that is rebuilding the equally shattered Russian Orthodox Church and help it snatch up all these parishes abroad."

Indeed, the Cathedral of Saint Nicholas is not the only prize catching Moscow's eye. Last year Italy agreed to cede ownership of a similarly spectacular cathedral in Bari to the Russian Orthodox Church, and the year before that, Paris did the same with a cathedral there. And last October, Israel agreed to turn over a building in Jerusalem known as "Sergei's Courtyard" that was constructed in 1890 to accommodate Russian pilgrims to the Holy Land. Moscow is also currently in a legal battle over control of London's St. Andrews Cathedral, home to a large Orthodox congregation.

But Moscow's drive isn't just about real estate and nationalism. Critics say the government is also trying to bring back into the fold the congregations that broke with the Russian Orthodox Church during the Soviet era to join a rival Orthodox branch, the Patriarchate of Constantinople — as the faithful in Nice did in 1931. Many of these overseas congregations have started to restore their ties to the Russian Orthodox Church in recent years, though Gueit says this is only in response to the government's putting the squeeze on their churches.

The Nice congregation isn't planning to rejoin the Russian church anytime soon. In fact, Gueit says the congregation wants to stake out an independent, pan-Orthodox position by breaking with the Constantinople Patriarchate too. He hopes to then attract other congregations to his nonaligned movement — whether he has a cathedral to use as his base or not.

Posted by John Sanidopoulos at 11:00 AM
Labels: Orthodoxy in Russia, Orthodoxy in Western Europe

Offline LBK

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Re: Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2010, 09:10:11 AM »
Quote
In fact, Gueit says the congregation wants to stake out an independent, pan-Orthodox position by breaking with the Constantinople Patriarchate too. He hopes to then attract other congregations to his nonaligned movement — whether he has a cathedral to use as his base or not.

"non-aligned movement" = schism.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Papa Gregorio

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Re: Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2010, 09:57:06 AM »
Ba humbug Humbug i say.... >:( He Should be defrocked,including the Russian patriarch that's allowing this ,,,while at it include the Serbian Patriarch and most of it's synod as well......
I vote that Metropolitan Athanasios Replaces them All,  he tells it like it is ....God Grant Him Many Years ..... ;D
WE Don't Need Rome ......Period ...... >:(

On News Yahoo religious section The pope of rome is preaching ethic's in world economy .....Right....

Scripture warns us of the Great falling away from God ,It is Starting with  these Ecumenist.....Christ says when he comes back will he find any faithful left....
,

Yeah, you tell 'em stashko. Anyone else on your list of heretical hierarchs you'd like to bump off? (I can just visualise it as though it were a scene in the Godfather when Michael Corleone rids his enemies in one fell swoop). 

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2010, 11:13:08 AM »
Quote
In fact, Gueit says the congregation wants to stake out an independent, pan-Orthodox position by breaking with the Constantinople Patriarchate too. He hopes to then attract other congregations to his nonaligned movement — whether he has a cathedral to use as his base or not.

"non-aligned movement" = schism.

In the grand scheme of the EA, this might be interesting. It might be the start of an autocephalous Church of France, which I'm all for.  I just do not know enough about the situation in France to say that the time is come.  I do know that they should already be on the road towards that. I support Moscow recovery of this church, and the one in Britain, particularly in the nonsense confessed under oath in court, i.e. the Phanar's canon 28 theory.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 11:14:27 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline bkovacs

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Re: Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2010, 03:42:35 PM »
Everyone!,
I think what most dissenters on both sides don't realize is that it is going to take both the RCC and the Orthodox Churches to combat secularization in the West and the rise of Islam in the West. Remember Orthoodoxy also exists in the West and not just the Mediterranean region and Russia. In Cyprus there are some who are expressing outrage over the Pope's visit. These Cyprus clerics and laity need to realize that this is NOT a visit to covert Christians to one church or the other, but to show an alliance of sorts to battle the evils in the world today. Neither Church can do it alone. So name calling is not going to solve the problems of atheism and modernism. We need to look at the future and stop living in the past for now. Iraq may very well be Christianless in the near future, and who are we going to blame. Both sides will take the blame.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 03:45:52 PM by bkovacs »
"We knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth, for surely there is no such splendor or beauty anywhere on earth." The Divine Liturgy at Hagia Sophia.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2010, 04:23:22 PM »
Everyone!,
I think what most dissenters on both sides don't realize is that it is going to take both the RCC and the Orthodox Churches to combat secularization in the West and the rise of Islam in the West. Remember Orthoodoxy also exists in the West and not just the Mediterranean region and Russia. In Cyprus there are some who are expressing outrage over the Pope's visit. These Cyprus clerics and laity need to realize that this is NOT a visit to covert Christians to one church or the other, but to show an alliance of sorts to battle the evils in the world today. Neither Church can do it alone. So name calling is not going to solve the problems of atheism and modernism. We need to look at the future and stop living in the past for now. Iraq may very well be Christianless in the near future, and who are we going to blame. Both sides will take the blame.

That's all well, fine, and good: the problem is that the Vatican has no credibility on that matter, as no soon was the Muslim or pagan threat in the past gone, and we had the minions of the Vatican all over us again.  We are quite used to disclaimers of wanting to convert, and then....

And I say that as an old member of the Cardinal Ratzinger fan club
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2010, 04:52:58 PM »
 :-[

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343399?eng=y

Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow Is Born
The common objective: the "new evangelization" of Europe. A delegation of the Russian Orthodox Church visits the Vatican, which publishes an anthology of the patriarch's writings. A meeting between Kirill and Benedict XVI keeps getting closer

by Sandro Magister

ROME, May 24, 2010 – Benedict XVI will soon create a new "pontifical council" expressly dedicated to the "new evangelization." Not for mission countries where the congregation "de propaganda fide" is already at work. But for the countries of ancient Christian tradition that are today in danger of losing the faith.

Pope Joseph Ratzinger wants to link his pontificate to this initiative. And this was the main topic that he discussed one morning in the spring of 2009, at Castel Gandolfo, with four prominent cardinals he had called for consultation: Camillo Ruini, Angelo Bagnasco, Christoph Schönborn, and Angelo Scola, the last being the most resolute in promoting the institution of the new office.

Meanwhile, one great ally has already united with the pope from outside of the Catholic Church, in this enterprise of a new evangelization.

This great ally is the Russian Orthodox Church.

On the afternoon of Thursday, May 20, immediately before the concert given for Benedict XVI by the patriarchate of Moscow began in the audience hall, the president of the department of external relations for the patriarchate, Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk (in the photo), said exactly this to the pope: that the Catholic Church will not be alone in the new evangelization of dechristianized Europe, because it will have at its side the Russian Orthodox Church, "no longer a competitor, but an ally."

The positive relationship that has been established between the Russian Orthodox Church and the Church of Rome is one of the most stunning achievements of Benedict XVI's pontificate. It is also stunning for its rapidity. In fact, it's enough to look back just one decade to note the chill that dominated between the two Churches.

To a question from www.chiesa on the factors that led to this extraordinary change, Metropolitan Hilarion responded by indicating three of these.

The first factor, he said, is the person of the new pope. A pope who receives "the positive regard of the whole of the Russian Orthodox world," even though this is pervaded by age-old anti-Roman sentiments.

The second factor is the common view of the challenge posed to both Churches by the dechristianization of countries that in the past were the heart of Christendom.

And the third reason is their mutual embrace of the grand Christian tradition, as the great highway of the new evangelization.

To the question about a meeting – the first in history – between the heads of the two Churches of Rome and Moscow, Hilarion replied that "this is a desire, a hope, and we must work to make it happen." He added that a few obstacles will have to be smoothed over first, above all the disagreements between the two Churches in Ukraine, but he said that he is confident that the meeting will take place soon: "not between just any patriarch and pope, but between Patriarch Kirill and Pope Benedict."

One proof of how much closer the positions of the heads of the two Churches have become is given by two books published just a few months apart, and without precedent in history.

The first was published last December by the patriarchate of Moscow, and presents in Russian and Italian the main writings by Ratzinger on Europe, before and after his election as pope, with an extensive introduction written by Metropolitan Hilarion.

The second, released a few days ago, is published by the Libreria Editrice Vaticana and collects writings by Kirill before and after his nomination as patriarch, on the dignity of man and the rights of the person, with an introduction by Archbishop Gianfranco Ravasi, president of the pontifical council for culture.

A selection from Hilarion's introduction to the first volume was presented by www.chiesa back when it was published. And an extract of a text by Kirill from the second volume is reproduced below.

Both the publications were promoted by an international association based in Rome: "Sofia: Idea Russa, Idea d'Europa." The association has produced an Italian-Russian academy, "Sapientia et Scientia," inaugurated last May 20 in the context of the "Days of Russian culture and spirituality" held in Rome by a delegation of the patriarchate of Moscow guided by Metropolitan Hilarion.

The Days had two culminating moments. The first on May 19, on the premises of the new Russian Orthodox church of Saint Catherine of Alexandria, built a few years ago in Rome, a short distance from the Vatican. There Metropolitan Hilarion, Archbishop Ravasi, and Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the pontifical council for Christian unity, discussed the issue "Orthodox and Catholics in Europe today. The Christian roots and common cultural patrimony of East and West."

The second important moment was the concert given for the pope on May 20 by Patriarch Kirill I. Compositions by great Russian musicians of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, like Mussorgskij and Rimski-Korsakov, ?ajkovskij andRachmaninov, were performed. Commenting on them at the end of the concert, Benedict XVI emphasized "the close, original connection between Russian music and liturgical singing." A connection that is also fully visible in the evocative "Canto dell'Ascensione," a symphony for choir and orchestra in five parts composed by Metropolitan Hilarion, performed at the same concert and highly appreciated by the public and the pope.

In his message, Patriarch Kirill recalled that in Russia, "during the years of persecution, when the majority of the population had no access to sacred music, these works, together with the masterpieces of Russian literature and the figurative arts, contributed to bringing the proclamation of the Gospel, proposing to the secular world ideals of the highest moral and spiritual caliber."

And Benedict XVI, in his final speech, remarked on how in the musical compositions performed, "there is already realized the encounter, the dialogue, the synergy between East and West, as also between tradition and modernity." A dialogue that is all the more urgent in order to let Europe breathe again with "two lungs" and restore to it the awareness of its Christian roots.

Both Benedict XVI and Metropolitan Hilarion are utterly convinced that Christian art is also a vehicle of evangelization and a leaven of unity between the Churches.

Before arriving in Rome to meet with the pope, Hilarion stopped in Ravenna, Milan, Turin, and Bologna. The first of these cities was the capital of the Eastern Christian empire in Italy, and its basilicas are a marvelous testimony to this. In his conference on May 19, Hilarion said that he had admired in the mosaics of Ravenna "the splendor of a Church in harmony, not yet wounded by the division between East and West." And he added: "If this harmony was real for our ancestors, it can be real for us as well. If we are not able to recreate the harmony evoked by the mosaics of Ravenna, the blame will be ours alone."

The following is an extract from the first of the texts by Patriarch Kirill collected in the volume published in recent days by the Libreria Editrice Vaticana.

Another part of this text was published in the May 17-18, 2010 issue of "L'Osservatore Romano."

The original, in Russian, was published in the February 16-17, 2000 issue of the "Nezavisimaja Gazeta"

________________

NORM OF FAITH AS NORM OF LIFE

by Kirill I, patriarch of Moscow and all Russia

A religious way of life – in our case, a Christian-Orthodox way of life – is distinguished by its foundation in the tradition of the Church. Tradition presents itself to us as a collection of truths that by means of the witness of the holy apostles were accepted by the Church, are preserved by her, and are developed in relation to the challenged posed to the Church in the various historical periods. In short, tradition is the vital flow of the grace of faith in the life of the Church. Tradition is a normative phenomenon, it is nothing other than the norm of faith. [...] Only a life that corresponds to tradition as norm of faith can be considered a truly Christian-Orthodox life. [...]

Preserving this norm and affirming it in society as a fundamental ontological value is a task of every member of the Church. [...] This norm is stable and fragile at the same time. The experience of contact with other cultural and social models tells us that from that contact, this norm can emerge damaged or even destroyed, or unharmed and even strengthened. [...] When the models of life different from our own are also based on their respective traditions, then most of the time they do not constitute a threat to the values on which the Christian-Orthodox way of life is founded. Historically, the Orthodox have coexisted, coexist and interact in Russia with Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and other Christian confessions. They have always lived peacefully beside the members of other confessions and religions; except for the cases in which a faith or a way of life seen as foreign has been imposed on our people by force or by means of proselytism. Then the people have risen up in defense of their own faith and their own norm of life. As a rule, these are cases that have taken place following aggression on the part of foreign powers. [...]

The problem is that today there are no defenses capable of protecting the spiritual health of the people, their historical-religious uniqueness, from the expansion of foreign and destructive socio-cultural factors, from a new way of life that has emerged outside of any tradition and has been formed under the influence of the postindustrial reality.

At the foundation of this model of life are the ideas of neoliberalism, which combine pagan anthropocentrism, established in European culture at the time of the Renaissance, with features of Protestant theology and elements of philosophical thought of Jewish origin. These ideas were definitively formed at the end of the age of Enlightenment. The French Revolution is the conclusive act of this philosophical and spiritual revolution, which is the basis for the rejection of the normative significance of tradition.

It is by no means a coincidence that this revolution began with the Protestant Reformation, because it was precisely the Reformation that rejected the normative principle of tradition in the realm of Christian doctrine. Tradition, in Protestantism, ceased being a criterion of truth. It was replaced by the application of reason to the Sacred Scriptures, and by personal religious experience. From this point of view, Protestantism essentially presents itself as a liberal interpretation of Christianity.

*
I would like to say a few words about ecumenism in this regard. When there is a slowing or a crisis in ecumenical dialogue, this is to be attributed in the first place to an insufficiency of a methodological nature: instead of agreeing immediately on the most important things, meaning on the understanding of sacred tradition as norm of faith and criterion of theological truth, Christians undertake to discuss individual questions, which are certainly relevant, but particular. Even if there were success on some of these individual points, this would have no great repercussions: what permanent significance could there be, in fact, to a specific doctrinal agreement when one of the parties – I am thinking, for example, of a significant proportion of the Protestant theologians – does not recognize the very concept of norm of faith? So new ideas and new arguments can always revise or annul what has been established previously, leading constantly to new disagreements and divisions.

If we look at the question of female priesthood or that of the admission of homosexuality, is not this perhaps precisely what happens today? Both of the questions confirm, among other things, the thesis about the liberal nature of Protestantism, as previously defined. It is absolutely evident that the introduction of female priesthood and the admission of homosexuality have taken place under the influence of a certain liberal vision of human rights: a vision in which these rights are radically opposed to sacred tradition. And a part of Protestantism has resolved the question in favor of this conception of human rights, ignoring the clear norm of faith in the tradition.

*

The new way of life in the postindustrial age is based on the exercise of individual freedom at any cost and without limits, except those imposed by the law. How can this vision be defined from a theological point of view? The conception of neoliberalism is based on the idea of the liberation of the human person from everything that he believes could limit the exercise of his will and his rights. This model presumes that the purpose of human existence is the affirmation of individual freedom; and it affirms that from this, the person derives his absolute value.

I would like to observe that theologians, including Orthodox theologians, do not deny the freedom of the individual. Affirming this does not betray the doctrine of the Church of Christ. The Lord himself, who created man in his image and likeness, has infused in him the gift of free will. [...] But when the apostle Paul calls us to freedom, he is talking about the predestination of man to be free in Christ, meaning free from the burden of sin. Because true freedom is acquired by man to the extent to which he is free from sin, from the obscure power of instinct and from the evil that weighs upon him. [...]

But the liberal ideal – as previously described – makes no appeal to liberation from sin, because it is the very concept of sin that is absent in this liberalism. There is no room for the concept of sin; an action is illicit when, with a given behavior, the individual violates the law or compromises someone else's freedom. We could say that the neoliberal postindustrial doctrine revolves around the idea of the emancipation of the individual sinner, meaning the unleashing of the full potential of sin that exists in man. Man emancipated in this sense has the right to free himself from everything that obstructs him in the affirmation of his "ego" wounded by sin. This is – the claim goes – a private affair, of the sovereign, autonomous individual, who is not dependent on anyone else but himself. In this sense, neoliberalism is diametrically opposed to Christianity. It can be defined as anti-Christian, without fear of sinning against the truth.

As for the gravity of the challenge, a qualitative leap is presented by the fact that the modern conception of liberalism [...] has penetrated and has spread in all the spheres of human activity: economic, political, legal, religious. The neoliberal idea determines the structure of society, it determines the common significance of civil liberties, of the democratic institutions, of the market economy, of the freedom of speech, of the freedom of conscience, of everything that is included in the concept of "contemporary civilization."

Whenever any objections to the neoliberal doctrine are advanced, some are struck with an almost sacred terror, they see these criticisms as an attack on the "sacred principles" of freedom and human rights. One commentator said that in one of my articles published in 1999 in the ""Nezavisimaja Gazeta," entitled "The conditions of modernity," I was proposing nothing less than the foundation of a society similar to the one envisioned by the Ayatollah Khomeini, and that I wanted to light up the skies of Russia with the bonfires of the Holy Inquisition. Society today must understand that neoliberal ideas can be criticized on the basis of different conceptions of political economy. The plurality of opinion, moreover, takes its place quite naturally in the system of values that liberal doctrine itself defends. [...]

*

But let's return to the initial question: what is, what should be the response of the individual person, of society, and finally of theology to the fundamental challenge of our time, the one issued by neoliberalism?

It is in the first place appropriate to emphasize how today there are at least two widespread points of view on this subject. [...] The first is the one that we could call the isolationist model. [...] It is a point of view that is present both in some political circles and in a certain part of our ecclesial reality. And nonetheless a question arises: is isolation vital and creative, is it truly effective, all the more in an open world, in an age characterized by the integration of science, economics, information, communication, and even politics? Such a defense against the outside world is perhaps possible for a small group of persons in the desert or in the dense forests of Siberia; although even those "old believers" in Siberia who for many decades defended themselves from "this world" were not able in the long run to preserve their cherished solitude or their form of existence. But is it possible to isolate, to cloister a Church and a great nation? Would this not mean rejecting the mission given to the Church by the Savior Jesus Christ himself, that of witnessing to the truth before the entire world?

The second model consists in accepting en bloc the idea of neoliberal civilization – as it has been developed in the West up until our time – in order to transplant it artificially to Russian Orthodox soil, to impose it on the people by force, if necessary. Unlike similar attempts made in the past, today the power of the state and its institutions is no longer necessary to attain this goal. It is sufficient to use the mass media, to use the overwhelming power of publicity, to exploit the possibilities offered by the educational system, and so on. This model asserts that the religious and historical-cultural tradition of our country has been exhausted, that only "common human values" have the right to exist, that the axiological unification of the world is the indispensable condition for integration. There is no doubt: if this point of view wins, the Orthodox will be confined to a sort of spiritual reservation. [...] Not unlike the first model, this model also has its followers: both in the political world, and, to a certain extent, in the ecclesial camp.

It is clear that the two models are mutually exclusive. It is also evident that both enjoy strong support. The opposition between these two points of view is to a great extent at the basis of the climate of tension and confrontation in social life; a tension that also impacts the life of the Church.

Is it possible to face and to resolve this challenge peacefully, meaning without sinning against the truth? Is it possible to offer an effective model that would lead to cooperation between the values of tradition and liberal ideas? [...] Christian and Orthodox theology must expose the heart of the matter: it must forcefully assert that the existence of liberal institutions in economic, political, and social life and in international relations is reasonable and morally justified only on the condition that the neoliberal vision of man and society is not imposed along with them. [...] The main task for theology is the elaboration of a Christian social doctrine of the Russian Orthodox Church, a doctrine rooted in tradition and responding to the questions facing contemporary society, a doctrine that could serve as guide for the action of priests and laity, and that correctly reflects the position of the Church on the most important problems of modernity. [...]

Thinking of the tasks of theology in regard to the relationship between Church and world, I would like to conclude by saying this: the norm of faith, engraved in the apostolic tradition and preserved by the Church, will reveal itself to us in its fullness as norm of human life when man himself is full of the desire to realize that what he has learned. Attaining this is not a task for theology alone, but for the entire Church in its fullness, guided by the power of the Holy Spirit.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 04:56:54 PM by elijahmaria »

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2010, 05:07:41 PM »
So we don't want the Roman Catholics to be our allies?

I seriously think some of you are taking some of this WAAY out of context. I read the article and see nothing wrong with it... If it's horrible for Metropolitan Hilarion to be shaking hands with the Pope and for the Russian Church to be teaming up with the RCC to combat secularism, then I must also be a heretic for living with Protestants and praying with them at the dinner table and sharing our spiritual lives...

If people think being Orthodox means being isolationists, then I fear for their spiritual state.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2010, 05:11:35 PM »
So we don't want the Roman Catholics to be our allies?

I seriously think some of you are taking some of this WAAY out of context. I read the article and see nothing wrong with it... If it's horrible for Metropolitan Hilarion to be shaking hands with the Pope and for the Russian Church to be teaming up with the RCC to combat secularism, then I must also be a heretic for living with Protestants and praying with them at the dinner table and sharing our spiritual lives...

If people think being Orthodox means being isolationists, then I fear for their spiritual state.
yesterday's freedom fighter is today's Taliban.

I have no problem with Bishop Hilarion's activities.  The papal pilgrimage is something else.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2010, 05:14:07 PM »
So we don't want the Roman Catholics to be our allies?

I seriously think some of you are taking some of this WAAY out of context. I read the article and see nothing wrong with it... If it's horrible for Metropolitan Hilarion to be shaking hands with the Pope and for the Russian Church to be teaming up with the RCC to combat secularism, then I must also be a heretic for living with Protestants and praying with them at the dinner table and sharing our spiritual lives...

If people think being Orthodox means being isolationists, then I fear for their spiritual state.
yesterday's freedom fighter is today's Taliban.

I have no problem with Bishop Hilarion's activities.  The papal pilgrimage is something else.
Do you mean the Russian trip to Rome or the Popes trip to Russia?

Offline Feanor

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Re: Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2010, 02:11:27 AM »
This is what I am going to say about Bishop Hilarion.




I've heard what Hilarion has to say about the Theology of St Issac of Syria, you know, the theology that he (bishop Hilarion) just found and translated. The eschatological theology about how the God does not tell the truth about eternal hell.


Because bishop Hilarion states that it is 'blasphemous' that God, who's 'mercifulness' is 'too great' to allow us to suffer eternal hell.


Well let me just tell you right now.... That theology is bologna.


God states it very clearly in the Gospels and New Testament about the punishment.



It is impossible to reach the perfect love which St John is speaking of without first having introductory fear. The introductory fear is the fear of eternal hell, the fear of the SLAVE.

1John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love


The second state of fear is the state of the WAGED LABORER, who does good through HOPE of receiving a reward... But if the introductory fear of hell is NOT eternal, then there still is HOPE of being delivered from it... But how are we going to reach the state of the hired waged laborer without the introductory fear of ETERNAL hell? You can't. Because (if you follow bishop Hilarion)you already KNOW that you are going to heaven in the end.... So basically, you know that you will receive your HOPED reward anyways.

So 'St Issacs' theology messes everything up in a HUGE way.



St Dorotheos tells us how we reach perfect fear which = perfect love, but you can't reach the perfect love without the introductory fear of eternal hell.

Perfect love is the state of the SONS OF GOD.

How can we possibly be perfected in love as St John says, without the fear of ETERNAL hell??

1John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love


Listen to what one of the most blessed saints of the Orthodox church has to say about the fear of God:

Audiobook:

http://philokalia.org/Abba%20Dorotheos/AD04.MP3



I'm sorry, but I bought his audio recording about St Isaac theology (they say its st issacs, but I myself, really doubt this)

http://www.orthodoxtapes.org/catalog/st_isaac_the_syrian.html



He's trying to teach us that pergatory exists in Orthodox Theology.

This is something which has seriously POISONED my own spiritual life.


Thats what it is, PERGATORY, Hilarion is preaching pergatory.

http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/6_19


Heresy is nothing but man's egotism and the devils hatred for us:

On heresy:

http://www.pantocrator.net/en/logos/c_z/on_faith/046_On_Heresy.mp3

I'll never understand you fundamentalists.