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Author Topic: First Episcopal Assembly?  (Read 5337 times) Average Rating: 0
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IreneOlinyk
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« Reply #45 on: April 18, 2010, 07:23:12 PM »

Mexico is with North America but Central America and the Caribbean are with South America, hence Met. Athenagoras being head of one and only attending the other. There are several bishops who will be invited to multiple meetings because of the expanse of their jurisdiction.

Thanks.

Quote
Is the Polish Autonomous Orthodox Church (PAOC) the same thing as the Church of Poland which is under the leadership of Met. Sawas?

*Autocephalous - the very same.

Are you certain about this Mike?

I thought the Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church in Brazil was an uncanonical group with its origins in the Orthodox Church of Portugal.  The Church in Portugal was made up mainly of converts, not people from Poland.
Besides, isn’t the Orthodox Church of Poland (in Poland) made up mostly of Ukrainians and Belarusians?   The Ukrainians in Brazil belong to the UOC-USA which is under the EP.

 
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IreneOlinyk
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« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2010, 07:31:01 PM »


[/quote]

I've tried to contact the Antiochian Cathedral where it will take place, the Greek curia in Mexico and the Greek curia in Buenos Aires. The Antiochians answered that it's organised by Metropolitan Athenagoras and they only offer the place. The Greeks have not answered yet.
[/quote]

I am confused by what you mean: what is Metropolitan Athenagoros  of Mexico organizing?

He is not responsible for organizing either the Episcopal Council meeting in South America, because Mexico is not part of the designated South America area.  Nor is he organizing the Episcopal Meeting of the North America area. 

Please clarify Mike what you mean. 

p.s. Do you mean you contacted the Greek Orthodox consistory office rather than curia?  I noticed that we Slavs tend to use the word consistory in our church governance.
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IreneOlinyk
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« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2010, 07:36:35 PM »

Polish Orthodox bishops excluded from the Episcopal Assembly:
Quote
According to the report published on the official website of the Patriarchate of Antioch,  archbishop Chrisostomos and bishop Ambrose of the Brazilian diocese of the Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church were not invited to the Episcopal Assembly of Orthodox Bishops of Latin America which will take place next Sunday in an Antiochian cathedral in São Paulo. Archbishop Chrisostomos and bishop Ambrose are the only Orthodox bishops in the region, who won't be present at the meeting. 

The Episcopal Assemblies of Orthodox Bishops are supposed to coordinate the activities of all Orthodox jurisdictions in respective regions, and they are organized by the senior hierarch of the Church of Constantinople in the region, in this case, metropolitan Athenagoras of Mexico. 

Fr. Andrzej Kuzma, who was one of the representatives of the PAOC at the conference in Chambesy in June 2009, which aimed to increase the number of Episcopal congregations in the world, said that "the hierarchs of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in its own way in interpreting the 28th canon of the Council of Chalcedon have difficulty in recognizing the canonicity of our diocese in Brazil." Fr. Kuzma added that PAOC will seek to regulate this issue.

source: http://www.cerkiew.pl/index.php?id=968&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=12992&tx_ttnews[backPid]=419&cHash=d358668871


Is any further comment needed?

Yes, there is misinformation on this site.  For example, Metropolitan Athenagoros is not responsible for setting up the Episcopal Council meetings for South America.  Fr. Peter DiLeo has given the wrong information or has been misquoted.
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« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2010, 07:38:19 PM »

Christos Voskres!
Mexico is with North America but Central America and the Caribbean are with South America, hence Met. Athenagoras being head of one and only attending the other. There are several bishops who will be invited to multiple meetings because of the expanse of their jurisdiction.

Thanks.

Quote
Is the Polish Autonomous Orthodox Church (PAOC) the same thing as the Church of Poland which is under the leadership of Met. Sawas?

*Autocephalous - the very same.

Are you certain about this Mike?

I thought the Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church in Brazil was an uncanonical group with its origins in the Orthodox Church of Portugal.

It's origins do not matter if they ended up in the right place, under a canonical Orthodox omophorion.

Quote
  The Church in Portugal was made up mainly of converts, not people from Poland.

So?

Quote
Besides, isn’t the Orthodox Church of Poland (in Poland) made up mostly of Ukrainians and Belarusians?   

And if true, so?


Quote
The Ukrainians in Brazil belong to the UOC-USA which is under the EP.

Are you saying that the UOC-USA has parishes for the EP in Brazil, or are you saying that the Ukrainians in Brazil should belong to the UOC-USA under the EP? That the Faithful of the Polish Orthodox Church should be under the EP in the UOC-USA?
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« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2010, 08:13:44 PM »

I am confused by what you mean: what is Metropolitan Athenagoras  of Mexico organizing?

He is not responsible for organizing either the Episcopal Council meeting in South America, because Mexico is not part of the designated South America area.  Nor is he organizing the Episcopal Meeting of the North America area. 

I would assume Metropolitan Athenagoras  is organising the South American Episcopal Assembly as the EP representative hierarch for the region.
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IreneOlinyk
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« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2010, 08:38:46 PM »

I am confused by what you mean: what is Metropolitan Athenagoras  of Mexico organizing?

He is not responsible for organizing either the Episcopal Council meeting in South America, because Mexico is not part of the designated South America area.  Nor is he organizing the Episcopal Meeting of the North America area. 

I would assume Metropolitan Athenagoras  is organising the South American Episcopal Assembly as the EP representative hierarch for the region.

No that is the point.  It is His Eminence Metropolitan Tarasios of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Buenos Aires and South America who is organizing the Episcopal Council meetings for South America.  Mexico is part of the North American group.
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IreneOlinyk
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« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2010, 09:07:10 PM »

First of all. let me apologise for adding to the confusion in this thread.  It is my fault.  I sometimes type to quickly and do not see the inconsistencies of my post until someone is kind enough to point them out.

Christos Voskres!
Mexico is with North America but Central America and the Caribbean are with South America, hence Met. Athenagoras being head of one and only attending the other. There are several bishops who will be invited to multiple meetings because of the expanse of their jurisdiction.

Thanks.

Quote
Is the Polish Autonomous Orthodox Church (PAOC) the same thing as the Church of Poland which is under the leadership of Met. Sawas?

*Autocephalous - the very same.

Are you certain about this Mike?

I thought the Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church in Brazil was an uncanonical group with its origins in the Orthodox Church of Portugal.

It's origins do not matter if they ended up in the right place, under a canonical Orthodox omophorion.

Yes, you are right.  I was not aware that the Polish Autocephalous Church has become canonical and I rejoice at the news.  My mistake.

Quote
 The Church in Portugal was made up mainly of converts, not people from Poland.

So?



Quote
Besides, isn’t the Orthodox Church of Poland (in Poland) made up mostly of Ukrainians and Belarusians?  

And if true, so?


Quote
The Ukrainians in Brazil belong to the UOC-USA which is under the EP.

Are you saying that the UOC-USA has parishes for the EP in Brazil, or are you saying that the Ukrainians in Brazil should belong to the UOC-USA under the EP? That the Faithful of the Polish Orthodox Church should be under the EP in the UOC-USA?
1. "It's origins do not matter if they ended up in the right place, under a canonical Orthodox omophorion."

Yes, you are right.  I was not aware that the Polish Autocephalous Church has become canonical and I rejoice at the news.  My mistake.  Maybe you could help me by filling in the history I have missed?

2.  The converts in Portugal & Brazil of the Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church.
I can see that my comment was confusing.  My aim was to  show that the Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church as it developed in Portugal had little to do with the recent immigration of Poles to Portugal since Poland joined the EU and Poles from Poland can now legally work in Portugal.  It is ironic to me that this church keeps the designation "Polish" in Portugal and Brazil, when the majority of people who belong to it are not ethnic Poles.

3.  Polish Orthodox Church in Poland is made up of Ukrainians & Belarusians.
You asked "So?"  I have visited Poland & Orthodox parishes on the way to Ukraine so I can verify this.
My point was that when Orthodox from Poland leave Poland they join either the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada, or the USA because they are ethnically Ukrainian.  For example, here in Canada, in the UOCC we have at least 10 priests who came in the 1980's from the Orthodox Church of Poland and are ethnically Ukrainian so they fitted into our church without any problems.  You have to know the history, of how areas which had large Ukrainian populations remained part of Poland after WW2 and the history of the area in general with ethnic minorities living side by side.  There are Polish minorities living in Ukraine after WW2 and they belong to the Roman Catholic Church in Ukraine that uses Polish as a liturgical language.
 So I wonder if there is really a need for a Polish Orthodox Church outside of Poland because Orthodox who leave Poland join established Ukrainian churches or Belarusian churches any way.

4.  No, I am saying that UOC-USA (EP) has parishes for the EP in Brazil and has had jurisdiction over these parishes historically.  This involves a small number of members, because most of the Ukrainians are Uniates whose families came from Galicia.   The Ukrainians immigrated to Brazil in the 1880's & 1890's.  The people are poor, rural farmers and live in one consolidated area and have maintained the Ukrainian language and customs. For example, an estimated 75 percent of the population of the entire municipality (including rural areas) of Prudentуpolis (about 55,000 inhabitants) is of Ukrainian origin. So unlike the USA, the Ukrainians did not go up the social ladder and move around the country to be dispersed in various areas, but remained rural farmers in one colony as it is called in Brazil.  We are always taking up collections for poor Ukrainians in Brazil in Canada where I live.
 Recently, a research team from the University of Alberta conducted an extensive study of this group and the retention of language and customs.  http://www.ualberta.ca/CIUS/announce/media/Media%202009/2009-06-29_Ukrainian%20L\ife%20in%20Brazil%20(eng).pdf
The priests are educated in the the UOC seminary in Boundbrook, USA.

No I don't think the Polish Autocephalous Church should be part of the UOC-USA (EP) parishes in Brazil. It would never enter my mind to suggest this.

And lastly, I hope with this answer I have not added to the confusion.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 09:20:29 PM by IreneOlinyk » Logged
ialmisry
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« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2010, 09:48:48 PM »

Christos Voskres!
First of all. let me apologise for adding to the confusion in this thread.  It is my fault.  I sometimes type to quickly and do not see the inconsistencies of my post until someone is kind enough to point them out.

Christos Voskres!
Mexico is with North America but Central America and the Caribbean are with South America, hence Met. Athenagoras being head of one and only attending the other. There are several bishops who will be invited to multiple meetings because of the expanse of their jurisdiction.

Thanks.

Quote
Is the Polish Autonomous Orthodox Church (PAOC) the same thing as the Church of Poland which is under the leadership of Met. Sawas?

*Autocephalous - the very same.

Are you certain about this Mike?

I thought the Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church in Brazil was an uncanonical group with its origins in the Orthodox Church of Portugal.

It's origins do not matter if they ended up in the right place, under a canonical Orthodox omophorion.

Yes, you are right.  I was not aware that the Polish Autocephalous Church has become canonical and I rejoice at the news.  My mistake.

Quote
 The Church in Portugal was made up mainly of converts, not people from Poland.

So?



Quote
Besides, isn’t the Orthodox Church of Poland (in Poland) made up mostly of Ukrainians and Belarusians?  

And if true, so?


Quote
The Ukrainians in Brazil belong to the UOC-USA which is under the EP.

Are you saying that the UOC-USA has parishes for the EP in Brazil, or are you saying that the Ukrainians in Brazil should belong to the UOC-USA under the EP? That the Faithful of the Polish Orthodox Church should be under the EP in the UOC-USA?
1. "It's origins do not matter if they ended up in the right place, under a canonical Orthodox omophorion."

Yes, you are right.  I was not aware that the Polish Autocephalous Church has become canonical and I rejoice at the news.  My mistake.  Maybe you could help me by filling in the history I have missed?

The Polish Autocephalous Church has always been canonical. The only period when that was questionable was between the World Wars, when Constantinople declared it autocephalous although it was part of the Russian Church.  Given that the Bolshevik yoke was its heaviest at the time, economia was seriously called for.

The group in Brazil started out uncanonical, but have come under the Polish Church, much like, but not identical to, the path taken by the UOC-USA under the EP.

Quote
2.  The converts in Portugal & Brazil of the Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church.
I can see that my comment was confusing.  My aim was to  show that the Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church as it developed in Portugal had little to do with the recent immigration of Poles to Portugal since Poland joined the EU and Poles from Poland can now legally work in Portugal.  It is ironic to me that this church keeps the designation "Polish" in Portugal and Brazil, when the majority of people who belong to it are not ethnic Poles.

Most people in the Russian Archdiocese of North America weren't Russian.

Quote
3.  Polish Orthodox Church in Poland is made up of Ukrainians & Belarusians.
You asked "So?"  I have visited Poland & Orthodox parishes on the way to Ukraine so I can verify this.
My point was that when Orthodox from Poland leave Poland they join either the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada, or the USA because they are ethnically Ukrainian.

Do they, or do you think they should? I have known several who have been OCA. St. Joseph, OCA, in Wheaton, caters to the area's Polish Orthodox, e.g.:
Quote
The following morning, the Feast of Mid-Pentecost, Metropolitans SAWA and THEODOSIUS, Archbishop ADAM, and Bishop JOB, together with two dozen priests and deacons of several jurisdictions, concelebrated the festal Divine Liturgy at Saint Joseph's Church, Wheaton, IL, which conducts an outreach ministry to the Chicago area's growing number of Orthodox Polish immigrants. Metropolitan SAWA also presided at the groundbreaking for the parish's new hall, dedicated in honor of Saint GABRIEL of Zabludow, whose relics are in Bialystok, Poland, the site of Poland's largest Orthodox diocese. [Prior to his election as Primate of the Orthodox Church of Poland, Metropolitan SAWA had served as Archbishop of Bialystok and Gdansk for 18 years.]
http://www.oca.org/news/64

Quote
For example, here in Canada, in the UOCC we have at least 10 priests who came in the 1980's from the Orthodox Church of Poland and are ethnically Ukrainian so they fitted into our church without any problems.  You have to know the history, of how areas which had large Ukrainian populations remained part of Poland after WW2 and the history of the area in general with ethnic minorities living side by side.  There are Polish minorities living in Ukraine after WW2 and they belong to the Roman Catholic Church in Ukraine that uses Polish as a liturgical language.
 So I wonder if there is really a need for a Polish Orthodox Church outside of Poland because Orthodox who leave Poland join established Ukrainian churches or Belarusian churches any way.
Answered above.

Quote
4.  No, I am saying that UOC-USA (EP) has parishes for the EP in Brazil and has had jurisdiction over these parishes historically.  This involves a small number of members, because most of the Ukrainians are Uniates whose families came from Galicia.   The Ukrainians immigrated to Brazil in the 1880's & 1890's.  The people are poor, rural farmers and live in one consolidated area and have maintained the Ukrainian language and customs. For example, an estimated 75 percent of the population of the entire municipality (including rural areas) of Prudentуpolis (about 55,000 inhabitants) is of Ukrainian origin. So unlike the USA, the Ukrainians did not go up the social ladder and move around the country to be dispersed in various areas, but remained rural farmers in one colony as it is called in Brazil.  We are always taking up collections for poor Ukrainians in Brazil in Canada where I live.
 Recently, a research team from the University of Alberta conducted an extensive study of this group and the retention of language and customs.  http://www.ualberta.ca/CIUS/announce/media/Media%202009/2009-06-29_Ukrainian%20L\ife%20in%20Brazil%20(eng).pdf
The priests are educated in the the UOC seminary in Boundbrook, USA.

Intersting. I've seen a number of references in the American press about hierarchs from the Russian Archdiocese going to Brazil in reference to the Galicians there.

Quote
No I don't think the Polish Autocephalous Church should be part of the UOC-USA (EP) parishes in Brazil. It would never enter my mind to suggest this.

And lastly, I hope with this answer I have not added to the confusion.
No.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 09:49:19 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2010, 10:12:31 PM »

To read the posts that come up from all sides on the subject of the Episcopal Assemblies, one would conclude that we Orthodox are hopelessly divided, at bitter loggerheads over items that often seem incomprehensible. I wonder if whatever structures the Bishops may agree to work towards whether the laity will ever accept such change.
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« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2010, 11:22:00 PM »


I would assume Metropolitan Athenagoras  is organising the South American Episcopal Assembly as the EP representative hierarch for the region.

No that is the point.  It is His Eminence Metropolitan Tarasios of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Buenos Aires and South America who is organizing the Episcopal Council meetings for South America.  Mexico is part of the North American group.

Irene> Metropolitan Athenagoras has jurisdiction over Colombia and Venezuela, which, per Chambessy's Rules of Operation (Article I.2), makes him a member of the South American Episcopal Assembly as well. He also happens to be the seniormost Bishop of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in that particular region, which would make him the Assembly's chairman and convener (Article IV.2).

I see from the pictures Fabio posted that Bishop Ioan Casian of Vicina (Romanian Patriarchate) made it to São Paulo; any word on whether the Bishops of the Orthodox Church of Poland made it as well?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 11:49:26 PM by Esteban » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2010, 11:49:15 PM »


I would assume Metropolitan Athenagoras  is organising the South American Episcopal Assembly as the EP representative hierarch for the region.

No that is the point.  It is His Eminence Metropolitan Tarasios of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Buenos Aires and South America who is organizing the Episcopal Council meetings for South America.  Mexico is part of the North American group.

Irene> Metropolitan Athenagoras has jurisdiction over Colombia and Venezuela, which, per Chambessy's Rules of Operation (Article I.2), makes him a member of the South American Episcopal Assembly as well. He also happens to be the seniormost Bishop of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in that particular Assembly, which would make him the Assembly's chairman and convener (Article IV.2).

I see from the pictures Fabio posted that Bishop Ioan Casian of Vicina (Romanian Patriarchate) made it to São Paulo; any word on whether the Bishops of the Orthodox Church of Poland made it as well?

This is very, very confusing.  This topic is being discussed on a number of Orthodox discussion groups on the internet.  One of the ROCOR priests said that Metropolitan Athenagoras is only part of the North American group and therefore, Metropolitan Tarasios is the chair of the South American group.  That opinion has spread to other groups.

But I guess he may have said that without knowing that Metropolitan Athenagoros also had jurisdiction in South America too as you have now informed us.

I am speculating that this is the source of the confusion: that Metropolitan Atheagoras was only going to be in the North American group.  I even saw a post that Athenagoras was heading the North American group, which someone corrected.

Where are the pictures?
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« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2010, 11:58:17 PM »


I would assume Metropolitan Athenagoras  is organising the South American Episcopal Assembly as the EP representative hierarch for the region.

No that is the point.  It is His Eminence Metropolitan Tarasios of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Buenos Aires and South America who is organizing the Episcopal Council meetings for South America.  Mexico is part of the North American group.

Irene> Metropolitan Athenagoras has jurisdiction over Colombia and Venezuela, which, per Chambessy's Rules of Operation (Article I.2), makes him a member of the South American Episcopal Assembly as well. He also happens to be the seniormost Bishop of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in that particular region, which would make him the Assembly's chairman and convener (Article IV.2).

I see from the pictures Fabio posted that Bishop Ioan Casian of Vicina (Romanian Patriarchate) made it to São Paulo; any word on whether the Bishops of the Orthodox Church of Poland made it as well?
It might make sense if the Greeks would switch their jurisdiction in Columbia and Venezuela to Argentina than to Mexico (I don't know of any reason to leave it under Mexico).
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 11:59:36 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2010, 12:33:35 AM »

Christos Voskres!

The Polish Autocephalous Church has always been canonical. The only period when that was questionable was between the World Wars, when Constantinople declared it autocephalous although it was part of the Russian Church.  Given that the Bolshevik yoke was its heaviest at the time, economia was seriously called for.

The group in Brazil started out uncanonical, but have come under the Polish Church, much like, but not identical to, the path taken by the UOC-USA under the EP.

I have known several who have been OCA. St. Joseph, OCA, in Wheaton, caters to the area's Polish Orthodox, e.g.:
Quote
The following morning, the Feast of Mid-Pentecost, Metropolitans SAWA and THEODOSIUS, Archbishop ADAM, and Bishop JOB, together with two dozen priests and deacons of several jurisdictions, concelebrated the festal Divine Liturgy at Saint Joseph's Church, Wheaton, IL, which conducts an outreach ministry to the Chicago area's growing number of Orthodox Polish immigrants. Metropolitan SAWA also presided at the groundbreaking for the parish's new hall, dedicated in honor of Saint GABRIEL of Zabludow, whose relics are in Bialystok, Poland, the site of Poland's largest Orthodox diocese. [Prior to his election as Primate of the Orthodox Church of Poland, Metropolitan SAWA had served as Archbishop of Bialystok and Gdansk for 18 years.]
http://www.oca.org/news/64




I think we may be confusing apostolic succession with canonicity here.  But then canonicity is sometimes in the eye of the beholder depending on church politics.  One example is the Bulgarian Orthodox Church which wanted autocephal, but the Greeks in Constantinople did not want to loose power. as the Ottoman Empire strunk.
In any event I am glad that the PAOC in Brazil is now considered canonical.
I still don't understand the connection between the PAOC in Brazil and the Orthodox Church of Poland.
I always thought that the PAOC grew out of a hierarch or 2 from the inter-war Polish Orthodox Church that fled to the West.  For example, I knew there was a parish in Britain.
By the way, the group in Wheaton Illinois  of immigrants from Poland are Belarusian by ethnicity.  The Orthodox around Bialystok are Belarusian.
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« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2010, 12:46:55 AM »

Orest> Fabio posted a link to a few pictures from the Hierarchical Divine Liturgy earlier in this thread.

From looking at the pictures, it seems as though only the senior hierarch of each Local Church present actually served. So, for instance, Metropolitan Athenagoras is shown vested and serving while Metropolitan Tarasios of Buenos Aires and Bishop Jeremias of Aspendos (Ukrainian Orthodox Eparchy of South America) are shown standing at the amvon. Likewise, Metropolitan Platon of Buenos Aires (Moscow Patriarchate) is shown vested and serving while Bishop John of Caracas (ROCOR) is shown standing at the amvon. Bishop Ioan Casian of Vicina, the sole representative of the Romanian Patriarchate, is shown vested and serving, even though he is not a ruling Bishop. And then Metropolitan Damaskinos of São Paulo (Patriarchate of Antioch) is shown vested and serving, while (a Bishop who appears to be) Metropolitan Siluan of Buenos Aires is (barely) shown also standing at the amvon.

It might make sense if the Greeks would switch their jurisdiction in Columbia and Venezuela to Argentina than to Mexico (I don't know of any reason to leave it under Mexico).

Well, the only reason I can think of is that the extensive Caribbean coasts of Colombia, Venezuela, and the Guyanas are traditionally considered part of the Caribbean region. (They're also significantly closer to Central America and the Caribbean than to Buenos Aires!) Anyway, the Antiochian Archdiocese of Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean technically has jurisdiction over Venezuela as well, but either they don't have any parishes there, or else Metropolitan Antonio was unable to attend--but I wouldn't know one way or another.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 12:56:48 AM by Esteban » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2010, 02:33:43 AM »

Anyway, the Antiochian Archdiocese of Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean technically has jurisdiction over Venezuela as well, but either they don't have any parishes there, or else Metropolitan Antonio was unable to attend--but I wouldn't know one way or another.

They have two parishes in Venezuela - one in Caracas and one in Valencia.

http://www.iglesiasanjorge.com/ - the website of the parish in Valencia.

I don't see Metropolitan Sergios (Abed) of Chile as well in the pictures.
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« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2010, 08:07:52 AM »

Regarding two issues that have been raised about the Ukrainian Church and the Polish church.

The Ukrainian Church in Brazil

Archbishop Jeremias was ordained priest and then bishop through the Ukrainian church of the United States under Metropolitan Anthony. Yet, he is listed in the Ecumenical Patriarchate's directory. I suppose that while as a priest his works were under the American diocese and once he was elevated to bishop he was formally subordinated directly to Constantinople.

the Polish Church

Don Chrisóstomos and Don Ambrósio are subordinate to Metropolitan Sawas of Warsaw. They are recognized and listed in every directory of the Church of Poland which is recognized as a canonical church. http://orthodoxwiki.org/Church_of_Poland, for example:

Hierarchy
His Beatitude Sawa, Archbishop of Warsaw and Metropolitan of All Poland
His Eminence Simon, Archbishop of Łódź and Poznań
His Eminence Adam, Archbishop of Przemysl and Nowy Sacz
His Eminence Jeremiah, Archbishop of Wrocław and Szczecin
His Eminence Abel, Archbishop of Lublin and Chełm
His Eminence Chrisóstomo, Archbishop of Rio de Janeiro and Olinda-Recife
His Grace Miron, Archbishop of Hajnówka and auxiliary for the Polish Army. Died in airplane accident April 10. 2010 - Metr. Sawa interim Ordinary of Polish Army.
His Grace Jacob, Archbishop of Białystok and Gdańsk
His Grace Ambrósio, Bishop of Recife
His Grace Gregory, Bishop of Supraśl
His Grace George, Bishop of Siemiatycze
His Grace Paisios, Bishop of Piotrków

As for the history of the members of this missionary diocese of the Polish church in Brazil, here  is a summary of what Don Chrisóstomo himself told me when I first visited the church, while having a nice cup of coffee:

Quote
In the 80s a group of searchers in Rio de Janeiro – RJ and Recife – PB, who had started in Perennialism, found out about the Orthodox Church and joined an Old Calendarist bishop from Portugal. They did start by what it seems to me as a step far larger than they could, because they styled themselves as the Orthodox Church of Brazil, Portugal and Spain. In time, the whole group, including the Portuguese bishop and their Iberic faithful sought canonicity in the Polish Orthodox Church and, thanks to God, were granted it. Unfortunately, after the death of the original bishop who had accepted them, the group elected a person to substitute him who was later found guilt of financial and ecclesiastical misconduct. This traumatizing event led to the split of the group. Some of the ones who were in Recife moved to the Serbian church, under Don Mitrophan of the Eastern Diocese of the Serbian Church in the US and the rest of the group remained in the Polish church. From both groups the grandioloquent self-style of being *the* Brazilian Orthodox Church was dropped understanding that this takes a very long time to occur. Now and then the idea is heard, but overral, from what I’ve seen personally in both groups, there is a humble acceptance that the current work is much more of seed planting than of boasting of already being a full new church.

One must remember that even today there is no Orthodox literature in Portuguese, no interest in missionary work to attend the particular needs of Brazilian converts in terms of information and Orthodox education and there was no internet in th 80s, which is the main source of information for the new generation of converts. Non-Web information about Orthodoxy in Brazil comes mainly from Roman Catholic publications and "authorities" wich seek to make no difference between the canonical and non-canonical churches since they are all "schismatics" after all. For those joining the church, even today, it takes some time to understand these differences and even more so in that time. Thus, despite their stormy beginnings over 20 years ago, they have proved their good-will and faith by seeking canonicity as soon as they understood their true initial condition. And for the lack of ethnic Poles or Serbians in these groups, one has to keep in mind that they are *missionary* groups. And God bless Metropolitan Sawas and Bishop Mitrophan for the Christian hearts and their truly pastoral vision in fostering the True Body of Christ on these lands so far from traditionally Orthodox nations and without the "glamour" or visibilty of the United States.
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« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2010, 04:41:51 PM »

Regarding two issues that have been raised about the Ukrainian Church and the Polish church.

The Ukrainian Church in Brazil

Archbishop Jeremias was ordained priest and then bishop through the Ukrainian church of the United States under Metropolitan Anthony. Yet, he is listed in the Ecumenical Patriarchate's directory. I suppose that while as a priest his works were under the American diocese and once he was elevated to bishop he was formally subordinated directly to Constantinople.

the Polish Church

I am having problems posting today.  This is my second attempt.  According to the terms of the UOC-USA & EP Agreement, the bishops in the UOC-USA in therms of church goverance are under their Metropolitan of the UOC-USA.  Archbishop Jeremias is part of the UOC-USA and takes part in all the sobors, and other forms of church administration. 
But all the bishops of the UOC-USA because of the Agreement are also considered to be bishops of the EP.

I am interested in church history.  Can you give me the name of the original bishop from the pre-WW2 Orthodox Church of Poland who started your church?
During the war or towards the very end of the war there bishops of the Orthodox Church of Poland who escaped the incoming Soviet troops by leaving with the Germans.  Then they lived in the DP camps until they moved on to become bishops in other churches such as the UOCC or the UOC-USA.  A handful stayed in Europe and were loosley affiliated with Metropolitan Mystyslav's Skrypnyk's UOC-USA.
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« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2010, 05:02:55 PM »

As Fabio Leite posted Polish Orthodox Diocese in Brazil emerged in the late 1980s. I don't know why it should be related to any pre-WWII Bishop.
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« Reply #63 on: April 19, 2010, 10:40:29 PM »

ag_vn> Thanks for the information! Then Metropolitan Antonio certainly belongs to the South American Assembly as well; I wonder if he was just unable to make it, or whether he was present and did not serve (he would be the senior Antiochian hierarch of the South American Assembly, but maybe he deferred to Metropolitan Damaskinos, whose Cathedral it was).

There are two other bishops sitting next to (who I think is) Metropolitan Siluan--you can see their hands, but not their faces! Perhaps one of them is Metropolitan Sergio, and the other Metropolitan Antonio? I guess we'll have to wait until more pictures of the South American Assembly surface.
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« Reply #64 on: April 21, 2010, 02:24:04 AM »

Asamblea Episcopal de Iglesias Ortodoxas en S.A.

http://www.iglesiaortodoxa.org.mx/informacion/?p=2955

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« Reply #65 on: April 21, 2010, 01:07:52 PM »

The text of the article:
http://www.iglesiaortodoxa.org.mx/informacion/?p=2955

The 16th and 18th of April marked the history of the Orthodox Church in South America, due to the realization of the "First Episcopal Assembly of the Orthodox Churches of South-America", in the headquarters of the Antiochian Archepiscopal Diocese of São Paulo (Brazil), having as the host H.E. Monsenor Damaskinos. The bishops of Orthodox Churches (Patriarchate of Constantinople, Patriarchate of Antioch, Patriarchate of Moscow and Patriarchate of Romenia) took part in the assembly,which counted with the presence of 10 hierarchs. The only one missing was the Bishop of the Patriarchate of Serbia, who as participating in the Serbian Holy Synod.

The objective of the Assembly was to implement the results of the 4th Episcopal Conference of Chambésy (Switzerland) in 2009, in which the Orthodox Churches gathered to create all over the world assemblies of bishops for a greater testimony of Orthodoxy and to coordinate group work in different areas (education, catechesis, translations of liturgical texts, relations with public authorities, etc.). In this meeting, it was discussed the adoption of a new version in Spanish of the documents approved in Chambésy, and the situation in each Orthodox Church in South-America was presented. The Assembly established an Executive Committee, whose members Their Emminences Mosenores: Athenagoras of Mexico (President, Patriarchate of Mexico), Anthony of Mexico (1st Vice-President, Patriarchate of Antioch), Plato of Buenos Aires (2nd Vice-President, Patriarchate of Moscow), Siluan of Buenos Aires (Secretary, Patriarchate of Antioch), and Tarasios of Buenos Aires (Member, Patriarchate of Constantinople). At the end of the deliberations, the Assembly brought up a number of recomendations to be dealt with in a inter-Orthodox level.

With no doubts, the meeting was crowned with the celebration of the Divine Liturgy in the Antiochian Cathedral of São Paulo, which counted with the participation of the orthodox communities of the city and dignataries representing different public, religious and social authorities.

The Assembly greeted in particular the President of Brazil, Luís Ignácio Lula da Silva, for his dilligence and defference shown in expressing through a letter to the Assembly, words for the success of this first meeting and his good wishes for all the communitie in South America. Also, the Assembly thanked H.E. Monsenor Damaskinos for his fraternal reception, his hospitality and dilligence in the organization of the event, and also for all the entities of the sirian-lebanese community of São Paulo for the warmth and attention for all the participants of the Assembly.
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« Reply #66 on: April 21, 2010, 01:20:49 PM »

The text of the article:
http://www.iglesiaortodoxa.org.mx/informacion/?p=2955

The 16th and 18th of April marked the history of the Orthodox Church in South America, due to the realization of the "First Episcopal Assembly of the Orthodox Churches of South-America", in the headquarters of the Antiochian Archepiscopal Diocese of São Paulo (Brazil), having as the host H.E. Monsenor Damaskinos. The bishops of Orthodox Churches (Patriarchate of Constantinople, Patriarchate of Antioch, Patriarchate of Moscow and Patriarchate of Romenia) took part in the assembly,which counted with the presence of 10 hierarchs. The only one missing was the Bishop of the Patriarchate of Serbia, who as participating in the Serbian Holy Synod.

The objective of the Assembly was to implement the results of the 4th Episcopal Conference of Chambésy (Switzerland) in 2009, in which the Orthodox Churches gathered to create all over the world assemblies of bishops for a greater testimony of Orthodoxy and to coordinate group work in different areas (education, catechesis, translations of liturgical texts, relations with public authorities, etc.). In this meeting, it was discussed the adoption of a new version in Spanish of the documents approved in Chambésy, and the situation in each Orthodox Church in South-America was presented. The Assembly established an Executive Committee, whose members Their Emminences Mosenores: Athenagoras of Mexico (President, Patriarchate of Mexico), Anthony of Mexico (1st Vice-President, Patriarchate of Antioch), Plato of Buenos Aires (2nd Vice-President, Patriarchate of Moscow), Siluan of Buenos Aires (Secretary, Patriarchate of Antioch), and Tarasios of Buenos Aires (Member, Patriarchate of Constantinople). At the end of the deliberations, the Assembly brought up a number of recomendations to be dealt with in a inter-Orthodox level.

With no doubts, the meeting was crowned with the celebration of the Divine Liturgy in the Antiochian Cathedral of São Paulo, which counted with the participation of the orthodox communities of the city and dignataries representing different public, religious and social authorities.

The Assembly greeted in particular the President of Brazil, Luís Ignácio Lula da Silva, for his dilligence and defference shown in expressing through a letter to the Assembly, words for the success of this first meeting and his good wishes for all the communitie in South America. Also, the Assembly thanked H.E. Monsenor Damaskinos for his fraternal reception, his hospitality and dilligence in the organization of the event, and also for all the entities of the sirian-lebanese community of São Paulo for the warmth and attention for all the participants of the Assembly.

Does anyone think that the North American Assembly will be any more, or less 'productive' than this?
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« Reply #67 on: April 21, 2010, 02:47:55 PM »

The text of the article:
http://www.iglesiaortodoxa.org.mx/informacion/?p=2955

The 16th and 18th of April marked the history of the Orthodox Church in South America, due to the realization of the "First Episcopal Assembly of the Orthodox Churches of South-America", in the headquarters of the Antiochian Archepiscopal Diocese of São Paulo (Brazil), having as the host H.E. Monsenor Damaskinos. The bishops of Orthodox Churches (Patriarchate of Constantinople, Patriarchate of Antioch, Patriarchate of Moscow and Patriarchate of Romenia) took part in the assembly,which counted with the presence of 10 hierarchs. The only one missing was the Bishop of the Patriarchate of Serbia, who as participating in the Serbian Holy Synod.

Given the blow up about the Polish bishops, this statement is inexcusable.


Quote
The objective of the Assembly was to implement the results of the 4th Episcopal Conference of Chambésy (Switzerland) in 2009, in which the Orthodox Churches gathered to create all over the world assemblies of bishops for a greater testimony of Orthodoxy and to coordinate group work in different areas (education, catechesis, translations of liturgical texts, relations with public authorities, etc.). In this meeting, it was discussed the adoption of a new version in Spanish of the documents approved in Chambésy, and the situation in each Orthodox Church in South-America was presented. The Assembly established an Executive Committee, whose members Their Emminences Mosenores: Athenagoras of Mexico (President, Patriarchate of Mexico), Anthony of Mexico (1st Vice-President, Patriarchate of Antioch), Plato of Buenos Aires (2nd Vice-President, Patriarchate of Moscow), Siluan of Buenos Aires (Secretary, Patriarchate of Antioch), and Tarasios of Buenos Aires (Member, Patriarchate of Constantinople). At the end of the deliberations, the Assembly brought up a number of recomendations to be dealt with in a inter-Orthodox level.

Like inviting the Poles I hope.

Quote
With no doubts, the meeting was crowned with the celebration of the Divine Liturgy in the Antiochian Cathedral of São Paulo, which counted with the participation of the orthodox communities of the city and dignataries representing different public, religious and social authorities.

The Assembly greeted in particular the President of Brazil, Luís Ignácio Lula da Silva, for his dilligence and defference shown in expressing through a letter to the Assembly, words for the success of this first meeting and his good wishes for all the communitie in South America. Also, the Assembly thanked H.E. Monsenor Damaskinos for his fraternal reception, his hospitality and dilligence in the organization of the event, and also for all the entities of the sirian-lebanese community of São Paulo for the warmth and attention for all the participants of the Assembly.
How about their sincere apologies to Met. Sawa?
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« Reply #68 on: April 21, 2010, 03:59:28 PM »

The text of the article:
http://www.iglesiaortodoxa.org.mx/informacion/?p=2955

The 16th and 18th of April marked the history of the Orthodox Church in South America, due to the realization of the "First Episcopal Assembly of the Orthodox Churches of South-America", in the headquarters of the Antiochian Archepiscopal Diocese of São Paulo (Brazil), having as the host H.E. Monsenor Damaskinos. The bishops of Orthodox Churches (Patriarchate of Constantinople, Patriarchate of Antioch, Patriarchate of Moscow and Patriarchate of Romenia) took part in the assembly,which counted with the presence of 10 hierarchs. The only one missing was the Bishop of the Patriarchate of Serbia, who as participating in the Serbian Holy Synod.

Given the blow up about the Polish bishops, this statement is inexcusable.



To me, this shows that they are *still* in doubt about the canonicity of the Polish Bishops. I don't know if they decided anything about this issue in particular, but truth is that communication of their part with Metropolitan Sawas is the only path to have things clear for them.
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