Author Topic: Modern day Greeks descended from Albanians and Slav's.  (Read 26127 times)

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Offline Rafa999

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Re: Modern day Greeks descended from Albanians and Slav's.
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2010, 03:10:38 AM »
Rob, Italians are descendants of the native Etruscans and the "Trojans" (the Mycenenean Greeks). Your quest to be a Greek is like trying to find the engram, its fundamental premise is flawed, especially since the Hellenes did not spread with their loins but with their ideas  :)
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Offline Apostolos

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Re: Modern day Greeks descended from Albanians and Slav's.
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2010, 07:46:57 AM »
Kostia I think your views are absurd and I think you have an agenda. I have issues with your views. You say (and I insist):
Quote
Well, the history says that there were no more Greek speaking people in Hellas...and that the emperor imported them from Asia Minor.  Don't argue with me...go argue with Nikephoros.
Again that is simply absurd (and I do not think you read my posts): Nicephorus Logothetes (that was the emperor) tries to adress the issue of the-how should I post it-ghettoisation of the Slavs and Avaro-Slavs that invade Greece and form slavic enclaves (Sklabinies). He tries to deal with the issue by importing significant Greek populations from Minor Asia ("ἐκ παντὀς θέματος-from every thema", see the thematic structure of the Byzantine state) by force, and by moving significant Slavic, Avaro-Slavic and Drogoubite Slavic populations from Greece to Minor Asia. By doing that, he weakens the Slavic presence in Greece, thus making easier the assimilation, and the Slavs who are transferred to Asia Minor find themselves amidst a flourishing and numerous Greek population. A couple of centuries later (as archaeological excavations carried out by the Czechs testify), the remnants of the large Slavic presence in Greece, are: A couple of burial sites and some pottery (and of course the great amount of Slavic toponyms throughout Greece). The Slavs (Ezeritea, Drogoubites, Velegizites) who arrived in Greece, by the 10th-11th c. AD have been completely assimilated by the more prosperous (culturally) Greeks. The almost total lack of remnants of Slavic civilization (burial customs, dwellings, techniques and types of ceramics) testifies to this assimilation, which of course, could never have been achieved without the presence of an indigenous Greek population.     
Quote from: kostia
The term "hellene" is used consistently throughout Byzantine literature (all eras) and is used to mean 1.) pagan, or associated with the Periclean age or 2.) a derogatory term, sometimes used by residents of Byzantium to describe inhabitants of the far off province of Hellas
The term "Hellene/Hellenes" during the Byzantine era was used simply to denote Heathen Greeks. It had no ethic connotations, it was a cultural identity and not an ethnic one. Hellas (or Helladikon as it was known in the Byzantine times) was the name of the Greek peninsula that covered Peloponnese, Hellas proper up to Thessaly (at least that is what the thematic organization of the Byzantine State shows us). However, in the 14th century, Pletho Gemistus wrote this to Emperor Manuel Palaeologus, for the people under his reign:
"We are Hellenes (Greeks), as the language and the ancestral education testifies" (in Greek: "Ἕλληνες ἐσμέν τὸ γένος, ὧς τε ἡ φωνή καὶ ἡ πάτριος παιδεία μαρτυρεῖ).
In the 15th century, Byzantine historian Laonicus Chalcocondyles in his work "Demonstrations of History-Historianum Demostrationes" (in Greek: "Ἀποδείξεις Ἱστοριῶν"), strongly believed in the connection between the ancient Greek civilization & his contemporary one. He describes the people of Byzantium as "Hellenes" (Greeks).
As of the beginning of 10th-11th c. AD, Byzantine Greeks "re-discover" their ethnic identity. In the "Tactics" of Leon VI the Wise, in the beginning of the 10th c. AD, we read: "My late father and emperor Basil had persuaded the Slavic tribes to change their ancient customs, and hellenised them (ἐξελλήνισεν αὐτούς), and subjected them following the roman system, liberated them from their leaders, honoured them by the baptism and trained them to fight against people at war with the Romans"...
Quote from: Kostia
I would refer people who doubt this to the Alexiad, in which Anna Comnena refers at one point to Hellenic orphans which "we must bring to the capital to teach them to speak their own language properly."
I think you're cherry-picking. Anna Comnena also writes in her work "The Alexiad" (after she's boasting about how well she speaks & writes Greek; she's proud she's not using her contemporary colloquial dialect but rather classical Greek in her writings, "the language of Aristotle" as she says. She describes the Byzantines as Greeks (Hellenes):
"There could be seen a Latin being trained, and a Scythian [she probably means a Slav] studying Greek, and a Roman handling Greek texts and an illiterate Greek speaking Greek correctly" (Book 15:7-9) (in Greek: "Καὶ ἔστιν ἰδεῖν καί Λατῖνον ἐνταῦθα παιδοτριβούμενον καί Σκύθην ἑλληνίζοντα καί Ρωμαίων τά τῶν Ἑλλήνων συγγράμματα μεταχειριζόμενον καί τόν ἀγράμματον Ἕλληνα ὀρθῶς Ἑλληνίζοντα").
As I have posted earlier I really (REALLY) do not care if I have Illyrian, Genoese, Venetian, Turkic, Germanic, or sub-Saharan genes. According to Herodotus, Greeks are defined by the four principles of Ὅμαιμον-Homaemon (same blood), Ὁμόγλωσσον-Homoglosson (same language), Ὁμόθρησκον-Homothreskon (same religion) & Ὁμότροπον Ἔθος-Homotropon Ethos (same customs). Even if the first part of the "equation" (homaemon), today is out of the question, the other three parts (homoglosson, homothreskon & homotropon) are still valid; there is, an unbroken cultural history & tradition, as well as an inhabitation of the same territory by Greek-speaking people for millenia.
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Τέχνη μελουργός, σούς ἀγασθεῖσα κρότους
Πρώτην νέμει σοὶ τάξιν, ὦ τῆς ἀξίας
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Πρῶτος παρ'ἡμῶν εὐλογείσθω τοῖς λόγοις.
Τὰ πρῶτα πρῶτε τῶν καλῶν λαχῶν φέρεις
Πρωτεῖα νίκης πανταχοῦ πάντων ἔχεις.

Offline pensateomnia

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Re: Modern day Greeks descended from Albanians and Slav's.
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2010, 12:00:33 PM »
Great post, Apostolos.

All of the specifics aside, if any European (or African or Asian or Native American) were to go back only 1,000 years, the number of people who contributed to their DNA is well over 1,000,000. Because our immediate lineage seems confined (only 2 parents and 4 grandparents), we tend to think that our gene pool (and race) is very confined and homogeneous. However, every human alive today has DNA from dozens of different ethnic groups and races, and most people have direct ancestors within the last 1,000 years who were from very different races from what they might think (e.g. they may be "European," but their ancestors include Asians, Africans, etc.).
But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

Offline kostia

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Re: Modern day Greeks descended from Albanians and Slav's.
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2010, 12:47:19 PM »
Dear Apostolos,

I'm sorry but I'm confused by your comments.  On the one hand, you say "As I have posted earlier I really (REALLY) do not care if I have Illyrian, Genoese, Venetian, Turkic, Germanic, or sub-Saharan genes. According to Herodotus, Greeks are defined by the four principles of Ὅμαιμον-Homaemon (same blood), Ὁμόγλωσσον-Homoglosson (same language), Ὁμόθρησκον-Homothreskon (same religion) & Ὁμότροπον Ἔθος-Homotropon Ethos (same customs). Even if the first part of the "equation" (homaemon), today is out of the question, the other three parts (homoglosson, homothreskon & homotropon) are still valid; there is, an unbroken cultural history & tradition, as well as an inhabitation of the same territory by Greek-speaking people for millenia.", but on the other hand, you seem insulted by my comment that there were 100,000 Greeks imported because there were no Greek speakers left in Hellas, and accuse me of having an agenda...what that might be, I'm not sure.

Finally, you accuse me of "cherry picking" on the quote from Anna Comnena.  In fact, you are the one "cherry picking" - you quote two authors, Plethon and Chalcocondyles, both 15th century writers.

Plethon, as you may know, was considered a kook by some of his contemporaries.  Gennadious Scholarius was reported to have burned his books after his death.  Some of his more ingenius ideas included abandoning Christianity and returning to paganism. According to According to Deno Deankoplos, Byzantium – Church, Society and Civilization Seen through Contemporary Eyes, “Plethon held remarkable views for his time.  Deeply disturbed over the terrible condition of the empire, he sought to revitalize the Byzantine state.  One means he proposed was the replacement of traditional Christianity by paganism, actually a form of Neoplatonism in which the gods were not to be personal deities but philosophical categories.” (p436)

Chalcocondyles, as you know, wrote at the time of the Fall, which was a time of great confusion (to the Byzantines) as to their ethnicity.  In other works of this same period, Emperors, Sultans and Patriarchs of Constantinople by an anonymous author, translated by Phillipides, the confusion is obvious...which results many times in the authors simply referring to the Romoi as "our race"...as in the language of the Akathist.

In sum, you, my friend, are cherry picking.  It is ONLY during the very last years of the Empire when anyone MIGHT refer to himself as a "Hellene"...and then only some of the intelligentsia.  For the vast majority of the 1000 year history, "Hellene" was the equivalent of "pagan" (I would argue with your choice of the word "heathen"...it meant pagan).  One of the things I could lay my hands on easily is the Synodikon of Orthodoxy (the full version) in which that sentiment is expressed:

"To them who profess piety yet shamelessly, or rather impiously, introduce
into the Orthodox and Catholic Church the ungodly doctrines of the
Greeks concerning the souls of men, heaven and earth, and the rest of creation,
Anathema (3)
To them who prefer the foolish so-called wisdom of the secular philosophers"


In sum, if you agree with me that the word "Hellenes" meant "pagan", then we essentially have no argument there...I continue to insist that the word also had a derogatory connotation, but proving that to you would involve more time than I'm willing to invest.

As far as the Slavs and your bloodlines...you will have to explain more fully to this holder of "absurd" views, what you are talking about.  Either you are insulted by the prospect of having Slavic blood in you, or you do not care.  I'm confused as to which is the case.

Best Regards,
Kostia Absurdikon
from the thema of Confusion
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Modern day Greeks descended from Albanians and Slav's.
« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2010, 12:57:51 PM »
I think you are a bit confused Kostia. We Greeks have taken the Roman Empire and Hellenized it. Not the other way around.

BTW Welcome to OC net. Kostia ;)

Online ialmisry

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Re: Modern day Greeks descended from Albanians and Slav's.
« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2010, 01:18:10 PM »
Chalcocondyles, as you know, wrote at the time of the Fall, which was a time of great confusion (to the Byzantines) as to their ethnicity.  In other works of this same period, Emperors, Sultans and Patriarchs of Constantinople by an anonymous author, translated by Phillipides, the confusion is obvious...which results many times in the authors simply referring to the Romoi as "our race"...as in the language of the Akathist.

That refers to the human race, to which the Greeks, Romans, Albanians, Slavs, Vlachs, Copts (they use the same term borrowed in Greek for their Theotokia)...all belong.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 01:18:29 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline Apostolos

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Re: Modern day Greeks descended from Albanians and Slav's.
« Reply #51 on: March 15, 2010, 03:49:56 PM »
I think you are a bit confused Kostia. We Greeks have taken the Roman Empire and Hellenized it. Not the other way around.
Sssht! Demetrios, that is our little secret  ;)
Codex Barberinus Graecus 219 & Parisinus Graecus 3041. Place: Thessaloniki. Time: 1st siege of Thessaloniki by the Turks. Author: Emperor Manuel Paleologus.
"Do not forget that we are Romans and our country is the one of Philip and Alexander-Μνημονευτέον ὑμῖν ἐστίν ὅτι Ῥωμαῖοι ἐσμέν ὅτι ἡ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου ἡμῖν ὑπάρχει πατρίς"
 
Ἦχος Πρῶτος

Τέχνη μελουργός, σούς ἀγασθεῖσα κρότους
Πρώτην νέμει σοὶ τάξιν, ὦ τῆς ἀξίας
Ἦχος ὁ πρῶτος μουσική κληθείς τέχνη
Πρῶτος παρ'ἡμῶν εὐλογείσθω τοῖς λόγοις.
Τὰ πρῶτα πρῶτε τῶν καλῶν λαχῶν φέρεις
Πρωτεῖα νίκης πανταχοῦ πάντων ἔχεις.

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Re: Modern day Greeks descended from Albanians and Slav's.
« Reply #52 on: November 26, 2013, 12:59:52 AM »
Can you remind me where Herodotus so defined the Greeks.  I was just thinking about that question this afternoon.

Dear Apostolos,

I'm sorry but I'm confused by your comments.  On the one hand, you say "As I have posted earlier I really (REALLY) do not care if I have Illyrian, Genoese, Venetian, Turkic, Germanic, or sub-Saharan genes. According to Herodotus, Greeks are defined by the four principles of Ὅμαιμον-Homaemon (same blood), Ὁμόγλωσσον-Homoglosson (same language), Ὁμόθρησκον-Homothreskon (same religion) & Ὁμότροπον Ἔθος-Homotropon Ethos (same customs). Even if the first part of the "equation" (homaemon), today is out of the question, the other three parts (homoglosson, homothreskon & homotropon) are still valid; there is, an unbroken cultural history & tradition, as well as an inhabitation of the same territory by Greek-speaking people for millenia.", but on the other hand, you seem insulted by my comment that there were 100,000 Greeks imported because there were no Greek speakers left in Hellas, and accuse me of having an agenda...what that might be, I'm not sure.

Finally, you accuse me of "cherry picking" on the quote from Anna Comnena.  In fact, you are the one "cherry picking" - you quote two authors, Plethon and Chalcocondyles, both 15th century writers.

Plethon, as you may know, was considered a kook by some of his contemporaries.  Gennadious Scholarius was reported to have burned his books after his death.  Some of his more ingenius ideas included abandoning Christianity and returning to paganism. According to According to Deno Deankoplos, Byzantium – Church, Society and Civilization Seen through Contemporary Eyes, “Plethon held remarkable views for his time.  Deeply disturbed over the terrible condition of the empire, he sought to revitalize the Byzantine state.  One means he proposed was the replacement of traditional Christianity by paganism, actually a form of Neoplatonism in which the gods were not to be personal deities but philosophical categories.” (p436)

Chalcocondyles, as you know, wrote at the time of the Fall, which was a time of great confusion (to the Byzantines) as to their ethnicity.  In other works of this same period, Emperors, Sultans and Patriarchs of Constantinople by an anonymous author, translated by Phillipides, the confusion is obvious...which results many times in the authors simply referring to the Romoi as "our race"...as in the language of the Akathist.

In sum, you, my friend, are cherry picking.  It is ONLY during the very last years of the Empire when anyone MIGHT refer to himself as a "Hellene"...and then only some of the intelligentsia.  For the vast majority of the 1000 year history, "Hellene" was the equivalent of "pagan" (I would argue with your choice of the word "heathen"...it meant pagan).  One of the things I could lay my hands on easily is the Synodikon of Orthodoxy (the full version) in which that sentiment is expressed:

"To them who profess piety yet shamelessly, or rather impiously, introduce
into the Orthodox and Catholic Church the ungodly doctrines of the
Greeks concerning the souls of men, heaven and earth, and the rest of creation,
Anathema (3)
To them who prefer the foolish so-called wisdom of the secular philosophers"


In sum, if you agree with me that the word "Hellenes" meant "pagan", then we essentially have no argument there...I continue to insist that the word also had a derogatory connotation, but proving that to you would involve more time than I'm willing to invest.

As far as the Slavs and your bloodlines...you will have to explain more fully to this holder of "absurd" views, what you are talking about.  Either you are insulted by the prospect of having Slavic blood in you, or you do not care.  I'm confused as to which is the case.

Best Regards,
Kostia Absurdikon
from the thema of Confusion

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Psalti Boy

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Re: Modern day Greeks descended from Albanians and Slav's.
« Reply #53 on: November 26, 2013, 03:44:22 AM »
I am "Amerikanaki"   8)

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Modern day Greeks descended from Albanians and Slav's.
« Reply #54 on: November 26, 2013, 04:54:19 AM »
Can you remind me where Herodotus so defined the Greeks.  I was just thinking about that question this afternoon.

It doesn't sound like Herodotus at all. The poor man was accused of being a philobarbaros and now Kostia seems to call him a racial purist.