Author Topic: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?  (Read 31213 times)

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Offline GiC

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Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« on: November 30, 2009, 09:12:54 PM »
The following thread started here:  Ireland running out of catholic priests  - PtA


Stashko who is pleased.

Hey, I agreed with him...isn't that enough to earn your scorn as well??? ;D
Haha. I know the source of your scorn... Not too worried about it.  ;)

Damn, I'll have to try harder. ;)
Yeah Gic last time I made a reference to the child sexual abuse issue I repeatedly got called a "moron" even when i tried to apologize. (do yo think anti-semitism or homophobia played into that? hhmm...)

Christians anti-semitic and homophobic??? Please, say it ain't so! I would never have guessed in 2000 years. ;)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 02:22:57 AM by PeterTheAleut »

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2009, 10:54:02 PM »
Stashko who is pleased.

Hey, I agreed with him...isn't that enough to earn your scorn as well??? ;D
Haha. I know the source of your scorn... Not too worried about it.  ;)

Damn, I'll have to try harder. ;)
Yeah Gic last time I made a reference to the child sexual abuse issue I repeatedly got called a "moron" even when i tried to apologize. (do yo think anti-semitism or homophobia played into that? hhmm...)

 Since you ain't a Semite, I doubt it.  :)
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2009, 10:55:19 PM »
Stashko who is pleased.

Hey, I agreed with him...isn't that enough to earn your scorn as well??? ;D
Haha. I know the source of your scorn... Not too worried about it.  ;)

Damn, I'll have to try harder. ;)
Yeah Gic last time I made a reference to the child sexual abuse issue I repeatedly got called a "moron" even when i tried to apologize. (do yo think anti-semitism or homophobia played into that? hhmm...)

Christians anti-semitic and homophobic??? Please, say it ain't so! I would never have guessed in 2000 years. ;)

 Don't forget 'forgiving'!  "You make me sick"... classic!  :D
"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying

Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2009, 11:32:27 PM »
Stashko who is pleased.

Hey, I agreed with him...isn't that enough to earn your scorn as well??? ;D
Haha. I know the source of your scorn... Not too worried about it.  ;)

Damn, I'll have to try harder. ;)
Yeah Gic last time I made a reference to the child sexual abuse issue I repeatedly got called a "moron" even when i tried to apologize. (do yo think anti-semitism or homophobia played into that? hhmm...)

 Since you ain't a Semite, I doubt it.  :)

But in current English usage the definition of 'Anti-Semite' has gained a cultural and historical context that has expanded, and in some ways altered, its meaning to a degree that a pure linguistic analysis is both incorrect and misleading...but I'm sure you are fully aware of that. ;)

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2009, 11:37:40 PM »
Stashko who is pleased.

Hey, I agreed with him...isn't that enough to earn your scorn as well??? ;D
Haha. I know the source of your scorn... Not too worried about it.  ;)

Damn, I'll have to try harder. ;)
Yeah Gic last time I made a reference to the child sexual abuse issue I repeatedly got called a "moron" even when i tried to apologize. (do yo think anti-semitism or homophobia played into that? hhmm...)

 Since you ain't a Semite, I doubt it.  :)

But in current English usage the definition of 'Anti-Semite' has gained a cultural and historical context that has expanded, and in some ways altered, its meaning to a degree that a pure linguistic analysis is both incorrect and misleading...but I'm sure you are fully aware of that. ;)
Aware of evil Zionism's plan's to either create or hijack certain terms in order to foster sympathy for their satanic machinations?  Yep, I'm aware.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 11:39:22 PM by GabrieltheCelt »
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2009, 11:43:37 PM »
Christians anti-semitic and homophobic??? Please, say it ain't so! I would never have guessed in 2000 years. ;)

Maybe bad (or poorly practicing) Christians.  You know, that entire New Testament thing that speaks about love - it doesn't leave too much room for hate.  Just because the two of you don't accept it doesn't mean you have to over-generalize about imperfect Christians or mischaracterize our faith.
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Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2009, 12:11:50 AM »
Christians anti-semitic and homophobic??? Please, say it ain't so! I would never have guessed in 2000 years. ;)

Maybe bad (or poorly practicing) Christians.  You know, that entire New Testament thing that speaks about love - it doesn't leave too much room for hate.  Just because the two of you don't accept it doesn't mean you have to over-generalize about imperfect Christians or mischaracterize our faith.

Like St. John Chrysostom who said in his Homily Against the Jews:

Quote
And why do I speak of the immorality that goes on [at Rosh Hashanah]? Are you not afraid that your wife may not come back from there after a demon has possessed her soul? Did you not hear in my previous discourse the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews and in places in which they gather? Tell me, then. How do you Judaizers have the boldness, after dancing with demons, to come back to the assembly of the apostles?

http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/homily-ii.htm

Maybe he was a 'bad (or poorly practicing) Christian', but the Church seems to think he's ok:

Quote
The grace of your words illuminated the universe like a shining beacon. It amassed treasures of munificence in the world. It demonstrated the greatness of humility, teaching us by your own words; therefore, O Father John Chrysostom, intercede to Christ the Logos for the salvation of our souls.

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/saints_view?contentid=405

Hmmm...

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2009, 12:16:28 AM »
Like St. John Chrysostom who said in his Homily Against the Jews:

Quote
And why do I speak of the immorality that goes on [at Rosh Hashanah]? Are you not afraid that your wife may not come back from there after a demon has possessed her soul? Did you not hear in my previous discourse the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews and in places in which they gather? Tell me, then. How do you Judaizers have the boldness, after dancing with demons, to come back to the assembly of the apostles?

http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/homily-ii.htm

Maybe he was a 'bad (or poorly practicing) Christian', but the Church seems to think he's ok:

Quote
The grace of your words illuminated the universe like a shining beacon. It amassed treasures of munificence in the world. It demonstrated the greatness of humility, teaching us by your own words; therefore, O Father John Chrysostom, intercede to Christ the Logos for the salvation of our souls.

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/saints_view?contentid=405

Hmmm...

We don't claim he's perfect - and neither am I, which is why I'm not taking your bait to judge St. John's words.  Nice try, though.
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You can presume to speak for Mor.  

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Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2009, 12:32:52 AM »
Like St. John Chrysostom who said in his Homily Against the Jews:

Quote
And why do I speak of the immorality that goes on [at Rosh Hashanah]? Are you not afraid that your wife may not come back from there after a demon has possessed her soul? Did you not hear in my previous discourse the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews and in places in which they gather? Tell me, then. How do you Judaizers have the boldness, after dancing with demons, to come back to the assembly of the apostles?

http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/homily-ii.htm

Maybe he was a 'bad (or poorly practicing) Christian', but the Church seems to think he's ok:

Quote
The grace of your words illuminated the universe like a shining beacon. It amassed treasures of munificence in the world. It demonstrated the greatness of humility, teaching us by your own words; therefore, O Father John Chrysostom, intercede to Christ the Logos for the salvation of our souls.

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/saints_view?contentid=405

Hmmm...

We don't claim he's perfect - and neither am I, which is why I'm not taking your bait to judge St. John's words.  Nice try, though.

Oh...that's no fun, I really wanted someone to defend the line: 'the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews'. Gods know I've done it in the past. ;)

Oh well, it was worth a try. ;D

Then again, knowing this board, there might still be a taker out there. :)

Offline Vlad

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2009, 12:44:33 AM »
Christians anti-semitic and homophobic??? Please, say it ain't so! I would never have guessed in 2000 years. ;)

Maybe bad (or poorly practicing) Christians.  You know, that entire New Testament thing that speaks about love - it doesn't leave too much room for hate.  Just because the two of you don't accept it doesn't mean you have to over-generalize about imperfect Christians or mischaracterize our faith.

Like St. John Chrysostom who said in his Homily Against the Jews:

Quote
And why do I speak of the immorality that goes on [at Rosh Hashanah]? Are you not afraid that your wife may not come back from there after a demon has possessed her soul? Did you not hear in my previous discourse the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews and in places in which they gather? Tell me, then. How do you Judaizers have the boldness, after dancing with demons, to come back to the assembly of the apostles?

http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/homily-ii.htm

Maybe he was a 'bad (or poorly practicing) Christian', but the Church seems to think he's ok:

Quote
The grace of your words illuminated the universe like a shining beacon. It amassed treasures of munificence in the world. It demonstrated the greatness of humility, teaching us by your own words; therefore, O Father John Chrysostom, intercede to Christ the Logos for the salvation of our souls.

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/saints_view?contentid=405

Hmmm...

Personally I'll take the words of a Saint over a person who puts his faith in 2+2 any day. I am funny that way. An Atheist is just someone who is so arrogant that they cant possibly conceive of anything being greater then they are. Its strange how atheists cannot acknowledge that the worst atrocities have happened under atheists. Take Stalin and Hitler as good examples.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 12:45:59 AM by Vlad »

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2009, 01:02:41 AM »
Like St. John Chrysostom who said in his Homily Against the Jews:

Quote
And why do I speak of the immorality that goes on [at Rosh Hashanah]? Are you not afraid that your wife may not come back from there after a demon has possessed her soul? Did you not hear in my previous discourse the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews and in places in which they gather? Tell me, then. How do you Judaizers have the boldness, after dancing with demons, to come back to the assembly of the apostles?

http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/homily-ii.htm

Maybe he was a 'bad (or poorly practicing) Christian', but the Church seems to think he's ok:

Quote
The grace of your words illuminated the universe like a shining beacon. It amassed treasures of munificence in the world. It demonstrated the greatness of humility, teaching us by your own words; therefore, O Father John Chrysostom, intercede to Christ the Logos for the salvation of our souls.

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/saints_view?contentid=405

Hmmm...

We don't claim he's perfect - and neither am I, which is why I'm not taking your bait to judge St. John's words.  Nice try, though.

Oh...that's no fun, I really wanted someone to defend the line: 'the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews'. Gods know I've done it in the past. ;)

Oh well, it was worth a try. ;D

Then again, knowing this board, there might still be a taker out there. :)

I'll be your huckleberry.  :-*  I think that either a) St. John was talking about a particular group of Jews or b) he was talking about something that's not easily accepted in today's PC world.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 01:08:44 AM by GabrieltheCelt »
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Offline Vlad

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2009, 01:14:02 AM »
Like St. John Chrysostom who said in his Homily Against the Jews:

Quote
And why do I speak of the immorality that goes on [at Rosh Hashanah]? Are you not afraid that your wife may not come back from there after a demon has possessed her soul? Did you not hear in my previous discourse the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews and in places in which they gather? Tell me, then. How do you Judaizers have the boldness, after dancing with demons, to come back to the assembly of the apostles?

http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/homily-ii.htm

Maybe he was a 'bad (or poorly practicing) Christian', but the Church seems to think he's ok:

Quote
The grace of your words illuminated the universe like a shining beacon. It amassed treasures of munificence in the world. It demonstrated the greatness of humility, teaching us by your own words; therefore, O Father John Chrysostom, intercede to Christ the Logos for the salvation of our souls.

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/saints_view?contentid=405

Hmmm...

We don't claim he's perfect - and neither am I, which is why I'm not taking your bait to judge St. John's words.  Nice try, though.

Oh...that's no fun, I really wanted someone to defend the line: 'the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews'. Gods know I've done it in the past. ;)

Oh well, it was worth a try. ;D

Then again, knowing this board, there might still be a taker out there. :)

I'll be your huckleberry.  :-*  I think that either a) St. John was talking about a particular group of Jews or b) he was talking about something that's not easily accepted in today's PC world.

I would put my money on B)

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2009, 01:15:08 AM »
I'll be your huckleberry.  :-*  I think that either a) St. John was talking about a particular group of Jews or b) he was talking about something that's not easily accepted in today's PC world.
Neither. He is talking about "Judaizers".
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Tallitot

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2009, 01:31:54 AM »
What "immorality" going on at Rosh Hashanah? Mrs. Eiser's apple honey cake?
Proverbs 22:7

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2009, 01:36:26 AM »
What "immorality" going on at Rosh Hashanah? Mrs. Eiser's apple honey cake?
More likely her denial of Jesus of Nazareth as Christ (Messiah) and God was the problem. The same problem Christians faced with pagan festivals which they couldn't take part in.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2009, 01:44:15 AM »
Christians anti-semitic and homophobic??? Please, say it ain't so! I would never have guessed in 2000 years. ;)

Maybe bad (or poorly practicing) Christians.  You know, that entire New Testament thing that speaks about love - it doesn't leave too much room for hate.  Just because the two of you don't accept it doesn't mean you have to over-generalize about imperfect Christians or mischaracterize our faith.

Like St. John Chrysostom who said in his Homily Against the Jews:

Quote
And why do I speak of the immorality that goes on [at Rosh Hashanah]? Are you not afraid that your wife may not come back from there after a demon has possessed her soul? Did you not hear in my previous discourse the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews and in places in which they gather? Tell me, then. How do you Judaizers have the boldness, after dancing with demons, to come back to the assembly of the apostles?

http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/homily-ii.htm

Maybe he was a 'bad (or poorly practicing) Christian', but the Church seems to think he's ok:

Quote
The grace of your words illuminated the universe like a shining beacon. It amassed treasures of munificence in the world. It demonstrated the greatness of humility, teaching us by your own words; therefore, O Father John Chrysostom, intercede to Christ the Logos for the salvation of our souls.

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/saints_view?contentid=405

Hmmm...

Personally I'll take the words of a Saint over a person who puts his faith in 2+2 any day.

What an impoverished view of Mathematics you have, a lack of understand and appreciation for the theorems and proofs of theoretical mathematics is a most sad and unfortunate thing.

Quote
I am funny that way. An Atheist is just someone who is so arrogant that they cant possibly conceive of anything being greater then they are.

I am a free sentient being, free to thing as I will, free to believe as I will, free from the despotism of the mind...I can think of nothing greater.

Quote
Its strange how atheists cannot acknowledge that the worst atrocities have happened under atheists. Take Stalin

Stalin may not have been a Christian, but he was not a true atheist, at least not in the sense of the enlightenment. He demanded worship, worship of the party, worship of the state, and, above all, worship of himself. No ideology, no philosophy, no system of beliefs can have any merit or redeeming grace without liberty.

Quote
and Hitler as good examples.

Oh no...he's yours:

'National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.... For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life... These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles! And I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles then we should to be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God.'

-Adolf Hitler

You may not agree with all his theology, but he was a Christian. In fact, much of the theology you might find most distasteful comes down the line from Chrysostom.

Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2009, 01:49:54 AM »
Like St. John Chrysostom who said in his Homily Against the Jews:

Quote
And why do I speak of the immorality that goes on [at Rosh Hashanah]? Are you not afraid that your wife may not come back from there after a demon has possessed her soul? Did you not hear in my previous discourse the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews and in places in which they gather? Tell me, then. How do you Judaizers have the boldness, after dancing with demons, to come back to the assembly of the apostles?

http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/homily-ii.htm

Maybe he was a 'bad (or poorly practicing) Christian', but the Church seems to think he's ok:

Quote
The grace of your words illuminated the universe like a shining beacon. It amassed treasures of munificence in the world. It demonstrated the greatness of humility, teaching us by your own words; therefore, O Father John Chrysostom, intercede to Christ the Logos for the salvation of our souls.

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/saints_view?contentid=405

Hmmm...

We don't claim he's perfect - and neither am I, which is why I'm not taking your bait to judge St. John's words.  Nice try, though.

Oh...that's no fun, I really wanted someone to defend the line: 'the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews'. Gods know I've done it in the past. ;)

Oh well, it was worth a try. ;D

Then again, knowing this board, there might still be a taker out there. :)

I'll be your huckleberry.  :-*  I think that either a) St. John was talking about a particular group of Jews

Considering later Chrysostom says 'What greater evidence could there be that a man does not love our Lord than when he participates in the festival with those who slew Christ?', I think it's safe to assume he's talking about all the 'Christ-Killers', which apparently doesn't just mean a particular mob in the 1st century, but all subsequent Jews. Guess it's kinda like that whole blacks being sinful because they're apparently descendants of Cain (did skin pigmentation really diverge that quickly, or was it a divine curse?).

Quote
or b) he was talking about something that's not easily accepted in today's PC world.

BINGO! But it was quite acceptable not that long ago...Hitler was a big fan.

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2009, 01:52:03 AM »
Like St. John Chrysostom who said in his Homily Against the Jews:

Quote
And why do I speak of the immorality that goes on [at Rosh Hashanah]? Are you not afraid that your wife may not come back from there after a demon has possessed her soul? Did you not hear in my previous discourse the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews and in places in which they gather? Tell me, then. How do you Judaizers have the boldness, after dancing with demons, to come back to the assembly of the apostles?

http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/homily-ii.htm

Maybe he was a 'bad (or poorly practicing) Christian', but the Church seems to think he's ok:

Quote
The grace of your words illuminated the universe like a shining beacon. It amassed treasures of munificence in the world. It demonstrated the greatness of humility, teaching us by your own words; therefore, O Father John Chrysostom, intercede to Christ the Logos for the salvation of our souls.

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/saints_view?contentid=405

Hmmm...

We don't claim he's perfect - and neither am I, which is why I'm not taking your bait to judge St. John's words.  Nice try, though.

Oh...that's no fun, I really wanted someone to defend the line: 'the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews'. Gods know I've done it in the past. ;)

Oh well, it was worth a try. ;D

Then again, knowing this board, there might still be a taker out there. :)

I'll be your huckleberry.  :-*  I think that either a) St. John was talking about a particular group of Jews

Considering later Chrysostom says 'What greater evidence could there be that a man does not love our Lord than when he participates in the festival with those who slew Christ?', I think it's safe to assume he's talking about all the 'Christ-Killers', which apparently doesn't just mean a particular mob in the 1st century, but all subsequent Jews. Guess it's kinda like that whole blacks being sinful because they're apparently descendants of Cain (did skin pigmentation really diverge that quickly, or was it a divine curse?).

Quote
or b) he was talking about something that's not easily accepted in today's PC world.

BINGO! But it was quite acceptable not that long ago...Hitler was a big fan.

LOL.  ;D  You that bored or are you hittin' the bottle early, sport?  ;)
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2009, 01:56:04 AM »
but he was a Christian.
No he was not. The Founder of Christianity said: "By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another".
At any rate, here are some more quotes of Mr. Hitler you may not know about from the book "Adolf Hitler", London, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1953.

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941
"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday
"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday
"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night
"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."
21st October, 1941, midday
"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' <who he asserts many times was never a Jew> doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)


13th December, 1941, midnight
"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe transubstantiation>....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)

14th December, 1941, midday
"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner
"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday
"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>." (p 278)
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Vlad

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2009, 01:59:45 AM »
Considering later Chrysostom says 'What greater evidence could there be that a man does not love our Lord than when he participates in the festival with those who slew Christ?', I think it's safe to assume he's talking about all the 'Christ-Killers', which apparently doesn't just mean a particular mob in the 1st century, but all subsequent Jews. Guess it's kinda like that whole blacks being sinful because they're apparently descendants of Cain (did skin pigmentation really diverge that quickly, or was it a divine curse?).




In this St Chrysostom was talking about Judaizers those were still celebrating the Jewish holydays and he felt it was wrong to celebrate the same holidays as those that belong to the religion that killed Christ.That is the context here. So it does actually mean a "particular mob"
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 02:00:30 AM by Vlad »

Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2009, 02:04:38 AM »
I'll be your huckleberry.  :-*  I think that either a) St. John was talking about a particular group of Jews or b) he was talking about something that's not easily accepted in today's PC world.
Neither. He is talking about "Judaizers".

He's talking to the Judaizers, telling them they're 'dancing with demons, to come back to the assembly of the apostles?', ABOUT the Jews he says it has been "clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews"

I read through the Homily...don't quite see the clear proof, but maybe it's just me? Several others throughout history didn't have any problem accepting the argument.

Offline antiderivative

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2009, 02:05:20 AM »
Quote
Stalin may not have been a Christian, but he was not a true atheist, at least not in the sense of the enlightenment.

And we Christians can use this same argument to wiggle out of being accused of intolerance throughout history. You call Hitler a Christian, but did he live the Gospel? We don't have to take the blame for what he did if you're going to deny Stalin was atheist based on your own criteria of what makes an atheist. You can't have it both ways.

Quote
You may not agree with all his theology, but he was a Christian. In fact, much of the theology you might find most distasteful comes down the line from Chrysostom.
And I could probably argue Richard Dawkins is more anti-Semitic than St. John Chrysostom based on a few quotes. The fact is, a religion's opinion on Jews should not be a criteria to determine if it's right.

By the way, is Chrysostom calling Jews Christ-killers any different from saying Muslims attacked the World Trade Center?
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Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2009, 02:06:22 AM »
Like St. John Chrysostom who said in his Homily Against the Jews:

Quote
And why do I speak of the immorality that goes on [at Rosh Hashanah]? Are you not afraid that your wife may not come back from there after a demon has possessed her soul? Did you not hear in my previous discourse the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews and in places in which they gather? Tell me, then. How do you Judaizers have the boldness, after dancing with demons, to come back to the assembly of the apostles?

http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/homily-ii.htm

Maybe he was a 'bad (or poorly practicing) Christian', but the Church seems to think he's ok:

Quote
The grace of your words illuminated the universe like a shining beacon. It amassed treasures of munificence in the world. It demonstrated the greatness of humility, teaching us by your own words; therefore, O Father John Chrysostom, intercede to Christ the Logos for the salvation of our souls.

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/saints_view?contentid=405

Hmmm...

We don't claim he's perfect - and neither am I, which is why I'm not taking your bait to judge St. John's words.  Nice try, though.

Oh...that's no fun, I really wanted someone to defend the line: 'the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews'. Gods know I've done it in the past. ;)

Oh well, it was worth a try. ;D

Then again, knowing this board, there might still be a taker out there. :)

I'll be your huckleberry.  :-*  I think that either a) St. John was talking about a particular group of Jews

Considering later Chrysostom says 'What greater evidence could there be that a man does not love our Lord than when he participates in the festival with those who slew Christ?', I think it's safe to assume he's talking about all the 'Christ-Killers', which apparently doesn't just mean a particular mob in the 1st century, but all subsequent Jews. Guess it's kinda like that whole blacks being sinful because they're apparently descendants of Cain (did skin pigmentation really diverge that quickly, or was it a divine curse?).

Quote
or b) he was talking about something that's not easily accepted in today's PC world.

BINGO! But it was quite acceptable not that long ago...Hitler was a big fan.

LOL.  ;D  You that bored or are you hittin' the bottle early, sport?  ;)

I'm THAT bored...helping my brother write a Critical Thinking paper...zzzzzzzzzz.........

Offline witega

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2009, 02:08:28 AM »
Oh no...he's yours:

'National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.... For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life... These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles! And I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles then we should to be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God.'

-Adolf Hitler

You may not agree with all his theology, but he was a Christian. In fact, much of the theology you might find most distasteful comes down the line from Chrysostom.

Where's the quote from? Not that I doubt he said it, but when it comes politicians, audience matters. I don't see him calling himself a Christian there--I do see him trying to make the claim that Christianity and National Socialism aren't at odds so Christians can safely support him against the far worse third-parties (Bolshevists, Atheists, and criminals). Which makes him a politician, not a Christian.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2009, 02:12:46 AM »
Are you guys so bored that you can't even discuss the topic of the thread:  Ireland's shortage of Catholic priests?
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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2009, 02:13:50 AM »
 ??? Four thoughts... There were actually 8 homilies against the Jews, all of which are available online for free. Happy reading, GiC. Hitler seemed to me to be quite eclectic with his spirituality. If he thought it'd give him an edge, he'd use and abuse it, whether it was ancient German religious mythology, Christianity, or whatever else. Stalin was an atheist. To say otherwise is to use the No True Scotsman logical fallacy (a fallacy first outlined by an atheist, ironically). And lastly, I have no idea how this became a thread about anti-semitism, Hitler, Stalin, etc... but I guess those type of threads need to catch up to the evolution and homosexual threads, eh?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 02:14:35 AM by Asteriktos »

Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2009, 02:18:27 AM »
but he was a Christian.
No he was not. The Founder of Christianity said: "By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another".
At any rate, here are some more quotes of Mr. Hitler you may not know about from the book "Adolf Hitler", London, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1953.

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941
"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday
"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday
"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night
"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."
21st October, 1941, midday
"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' <who he asserts many times was never a Jew> doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)


13th December, 1941, midnight
"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe transubstantiation>....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)

14th December, 1941, midday
"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner
"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday
"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>." (p 278)


Oh YAY, a Hitler quotefest, it's just like watching the History Channel on OC.net. My Turn. ;)

Quote
    "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

    -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Thus, Protestantism will always stand up for the advancement of all Germans as such, as long as matters of inner purity or national deepening as well as German freedom are involved, since all these things have a firm foundation in its own being; but it combats with the greatest hostility any attempt to rescue the nation from the embrace of its most mortal enemy, since its attitude toward the Jews just happens to be more or less dogmatically established.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Certainly we don't have to discuss these matters with the Jews, the most modern inventors of this cultural perfume. Their whole existence is an embodied protest against the aesthetics of the Lord's image.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)


My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

Just as the Jew could once incite the mob of Jerusalem against Christ, so today he must succeed in inciting folk who have been duped into madness to attack those who, God's truth! seek to deal with this people in utter honesty and sincerity.

-Adolf Hitler, in Munich, 28 July 1922

In the Bible we find the text, 'That which is neither hot nor cold will I spew out of my mouth.' This utterance of the great Nazarene has kept its profound validity until the present day.

-Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich, 10 April 1923

It matters not whether these weapons of ours are humane: if they gain us our freedom, they are justified before our conscience and before our God.

-Adolf Hitler, in Munich, 01 Aug. 1923

Except the Lord built the house they labour in vain.... The truth of that text was proved if one looks at the house of which the foundations were laid in 1918 and which since then has been in building.... The world will not help, the people must help itself. Its own strength is the source of life. That strength the Almighty has given us to use; that in it and through it we may wage the battle of our life.... The others in the past years have not had the blessing of the Almighty-- of Him Who in the last resort, whatever man may do, holds in His hands the final decision. Lord God, let us never hesitate or play the coward, let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us.... We are all proud that through God's powerful aid we have become once more true Germans.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in March 1933

Well, that's about enough, but one more one to show that he was continuing the Tradition of the Catholic Church:

Quote
The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were".... I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions.

-Adolf Hitler, 26 April 1933

Hitler may not have been of the same Christian sect as you, but he was most certainly a follower of Christ.

Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2009, 02:22:48 AM »
Are you guys so bored that you can't even discuss the topic of the thread:  Ireland's shortage of Catholic priests?

I was just responding to Talliot's complaint about the abuse he's received on this board. I wasn't the one who took one sarcastic remark and blew it WAY, WAY out of proportion...but once challenged, you know I won't back down. ;)

Oh, and you missed the post I was in the process of making when you transferred these all over here.

Offline Vlad

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2009, 02:23:38 AM »
??? Four thoughts... There were actually 8 homilies against the Jews, all of which are available online for free. Happy reading, GiC. Hitler seemed to me to be quite eclectic with his spirituality. If he thought it'd give him an edge, he'd use and abuse it, whether it was ancient German religious mythology, Christianity, or whatever else. Stalin was an atheist. To say otherwise is to use the No True Scotsman logical fallacy (a fallacy first outlined by an atheist, ironically). And lastly, I have no idea how this became a thread about anti-semitism, Hitler, Stalin, etc... but I guess those type of threads need to catch up to the evolution and homosexual threads, eh?

This is exactly right about Hitler he used Neo Paganism and Christianity for political ends that was it.

Offline Super Apostolic Bros.

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2009, 02:25:59 AM »
*ahem* I think I'll play my moral relativism card. *deals card*

Have fun! *runs out to persecute Jews and gays*

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2009, 02:26:21 AM »
Are you guys so bored that you can't even discuss the topic of the thread:  Ireland's shortage of Catholic priests?

I was just responding to Talliot's complaint about the abuse he's received on this board. I wasn't the one who took one sarcastic remark and blew it WAY, WAY out of proportion...but once challenged, you know I won't back down. ;)
Of course, I wasn't blaming just you, for it took many to derail the original thread this badly. ;)

Oh, and you missed the post I was in the process of making when you transferred these all over here.
Thanks for the heads up.  I think I got it now. ;)
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Offline Vlad

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2009, 02:26:28 AM »
Are Christians anti-semitic and homophobic? According to the modern world yes. I for one believe that the state of Isreal is the source of a lot of problems tchnically that makes me anti semitic. I do believe that homosexuality is evil and perverted. So yeah I am homophobic according to this world. But I dont care about this world.

Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2009, 02:30:24 AM »
Quote
Stalin may not have been a Christian, but he was not a true atheist, at least not in the sense of the enlightenment.

And we Christians can use this same argument to wiggle out of being accused of intolerance throughout history. You call Hitler a Christian, but did he live the Gospel? We don't have to take the blame for what he did if you're going to deny Stalin was atheist based on your own criteria of what makes an atheist. You can't have it both ways.

I was perhaps being a bit too poetic in my polemics...yes, he was an atheist, but my point is that no doctrine is complete without liberty. Atheism alone doesn't ensure morality, neither does Christianity...only liberty. There are certain Christians that I may think are truly good and ethical people (though a bit crazy with the whole religion thing), but you'd probably condemn them as left-wing radicals and apostates...guess you just can't win.

Quote
Quote
You may not agree with all his theology, but he was a Christian. In fact, much of the theology you might find most distasteful comes down the line from Chrysostom.
And I could probably argue Richard Dawkins is more anti-Semitic than St. John Chrysostom based on a few quotes. The fact is, a religion's opinion on Jews should not be a criteria to determine if it's right.

Oh, there are many, many reasons it's not right...I was just contesting the claim that it was not anti-semitic...we're hardly discussing 'if god exists' here, there's another thread for that.

Quote
By the way, is Chrysostom calling Jews Christ-killers any different from saying Muslims attacked the World Trade Center?

A Jewish mob killed Christ, a few Islamic radicals attacked the WTC. Plus, IT'S 400 YEARS AFTER THIS EVENT HAPPENED...GET OVER IT FOR GOD'S SAKE!!! But, nope, his doctrines continued right into the 1930's and 40's as popular and acceptable expressions of the Christian faith.

Offline Vlad

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2009, 02:32:21 AM »
Hitler may not have been of the same Christian sect as you, but he was most certainly a follower of Christ.

Really, a follower of Christ? Do you really think a true follower of Christ would do what he did? Just curious what you think a follower of Christ is.



Fixed quote tag thingies...  - PtA
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 02:35:12 AM by PeterTheAleut »

Offline Super Apostolic Bros.

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2009, 02:36:31 AM »
A follower of Christ is anyone who considers himself a Christian. For a sniper like GiC any Christian needed to make a rhetorical point will do.

I personally view I John, the Sermon on the Mount and the Epistles as basic guidelines for Christian behaviour. That doesn't mean everyone will, given the practical difficulty of following them....
« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 03:46:17 PM by Schultz »

Offline antiderivative

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2009, 02:36:45 AM »
Quote
I was perhaps being a bit too poetic in my polemics...yes, he was an atheist, but my point is that no doctrine is complete without liberty. Atheism alone doesn't ensure morality, neither does Christianity...only liberty. There are certain Christians that I may think are truly good and ethical people (though a bit crazy with the whole religion thing), but you'd probably condemn them as left-wing radicals and apostates...guess you just can't win.

Ahh, only the ones with sexually lenient morals are remotely sane and worthy of being associated with. That right there is genuine tolerance.

Quote
A Jewish mob killed Christ, a few Islamic radicals attacked the WTC. Plus, IT'S 400 YEARS AFTER THIS EVENT HAPPENED...GET OVER IT FOR GOD'S SAKE!!! But, nope, his doctrines continued right into the 1930's and 40's as popular and acceptable expressions of the Christian faith.

I strongly doubt this is what influenced Hitler's anti-Semitism. He might have used St. John's writings to manipulate people into anti-Semitism, but he forgot what St. John said about the use of violence and force.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 02:39:57 AM by antiderivative »
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Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2009, 02:38:15 AM »
Oh no...he's yours:

'National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.... For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life... These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles! And I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles then we should to be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God.'

-Adolf Hitler

You may not agree with all his theology, but he was a Christian. In fact, much of the theology you might find most distasteful comes down the line from Chrysostom.

Where's the quote from? Not that I doubt he said it, but when it comes politicians, audience matters. I don't see him calling himself a Christian there--I do see him trying to make the claim that Christianity and National Socialism aren't at odds so Christians can safely support him against the far worse third-parties (Bolshevists, Atheists, and criminals). Which makes him a politician, not a Christian.

Sorry, missed that line in my quotefest ;)

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech at Koblenz, to the Germans of the Saar, 26 Aug. 1934

BTW, forgot to cite my source...I obviously got all these off the internet, I don't keep my personal hitler quotes file ;D

http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

But you're right, politicians always play to the crowd, but hitler had a Christian upbringing and, to the end, was convinced he was doing God's bidding. He was hardly an atheist by any definition.

Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2009, 02:49:33 AM »
??? Four thoughts... There were actually 8 homilies against the Jews, all of which are available online for free. Happy reading, GiC. Hitler seemed to me to be quite eclectic with his spirituality. If he thought it'd give him an edge, he'd use and abuse it, whether it was ancient German religious mythology, Christianity, or whatever else. Stalin was an atheist. To say otherwise is to use the No True Scotsman logical fallacy (a fallacy first outlined by an atheist, ironically). And lastly, I have no idea how this became a thread about anti-semitism, Hitler, Stalin, etc... but I guess those type of threads need to catch up to the evolution and homosexual threads, eh?

This is exactly right about Hitler he used Neo Paganism and Christianity for political ends that was it.

Hitler may not have been of the same Christian sect as you, but he was most certainly a follower of Christ.

Really, a follower of Christ? Do you really think a true follower of Christ would do what he did? Just curious what you think a follower of Christ is.



Fixed quote tag thingies...  - PtA

Let's see he used Christianity and Paganism to further his own ends, murdered those who disagreed with him, and waged massive campaigns to conquer Europe? Sounds a like a certain Emperor who has been Canonized as a Saint...actually, thinking about it, sounds like a couple except the using paganism part...that honor lies with St. Constantine the Great.

Whether this is the behaviour of a 'true follower of Christ', probably not, I really only have a small handful of problems with Christ's teachings that were mostly hold-overs his culture...but, overall, he was quite counter-cultural and probably a descent guy as far as first century people go (in general I would have found their prejudices and intolerances, well, intolerable). But I don't see many Christians like that, especially after the influence of Paul, so talking about whether he was a 'true follower of Christ' or a follower of Christ in colloquial sense of being a Christian are two different topics.

Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2009, 02:56:27 AM »
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I was perhaps being a bit too poetic in my polemics...yes, he was an atheist, but my point is that no doctrine is complete without liberty. Atheism alone doesn't ensure morality, neither does Christianity...only liberty. There are certain Christians that I may think are truly good and ethical people (though a bit crazy with the whole religion thing), but you'd probably condemn them as left-wing radicals and apostates...guess you just can't win.

Ahh, only the ones with sexually lenient morals are remotely sane and worthy of being associated with. That right there is genuine tolerance.

Now you're putting words in my mouth...I've friends with all sorts of crazy people, heck, I even kinda like myself. ;) There just the ones who's ethics I find acceptable.

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A Jewish mob killed Christ, a few Islamic radicals attacked the WTC. Plus, IT'S 400 YEARS AFTER THIS EVENT HAPPENED...GET OVER IT FOR GOD'S SAKE!!! But, nope, his doctrines continued right into the 1930's and 40's as popular and acceptable expressions of the Christian faith.

I strongly doubt this is what influenced Hitler's anti-Semitism. He might have used St. John's writings to manipulate people into anti-Semitism, but he forgot what St. John said about the use of violence and force.


Hitler was much more influenced by Luther than Chrysostom, don't know if he ever even read the latter, though I would guess that Goebbels gave him the odd quote here and there, Goebbels was the only high ranking henchman who truly understood the proper history and context of the party ideology. But Luther did get many of his ideas on the Jews from Chrysostom, though he took a bit more, shall we say, aggressive stance on the matter. But Chrysostom does share responsibility for being a father of modern anti-semitism in the western world.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2009, 03:02:51 AM »
But Chrysostom does share responsibility for being a father of modern anti-semitism in the western world.

Would you consider yourself to be "pro-Jewish" by any stretch of the imagination?  I would assume that you are just as critical of their strange rituals and fanatical beliefs as of any other religious group.  Certainly their ethno-centrism must be repugnant to you, with them being the apple of their God's eye; the center of the universe.

Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2009, 03:05:10 AM »
But Chrysostom does share responsibility for being a father of modern anti-semitism in the western world.

Would you consider yourself to be "pro-Jewish" by any stretch of the imagination?  I would assume that you are just as critical of their strange rituals and fanatical beliefs as of any other religious group.  Certainly their ethno-centrism must be repugnant to you, with them being the apple of their God's eye; the center of the universe.

I'm ok with secular jews and the more liberal sects...Orthodox Jews are just crazy. But are they demons? Come on. I'm also pro-Israel, but we should start a page in politics if we want to talk about that.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 03:06:01 AM by GiC »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2009, 03:06:20 AM »
I'll be your huckleberry.  :-*  I think that either a) St. John was talking about a particular group of Jews or b) he was talking about something that's not easily accepted in today's PC world.
Neither. He is talking about "Judaizers".

He's talking to the Judaizers, telling them they're 'dancing with demons, to come back to the assembly of the apostles?', ABOUT the Jews he says it has been "clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews"

I read through the Homily...don't quite see the clear proof, but maybe it's just me? Several others throughout history didn't have any problem accepting the argument.
But GiC, Our Father among the Saints John Chrysostom would say the same of you- that you are cavorting with demons, and the proof is that you deny Christ. I don't say this to hurt you, but to try and get you to see things from his point of view. Anyone who rejects Christ and the Gospel would have been understood as under the influence of demons.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 03:06:41 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2009, 03:07:30 AM »
Every Great Week-at the 12 Gospels' Matins, if I am not mistaken-the chanters will sing several times :"... but render unto them [i.e. the Jews] , o Lord according to their request, for they have not known your compassion".
On Palm Sunday the kliros will sing "O faithless Jewish nation full of sin come see the One whom Isaiah saw, coming in flesh for us, as He betroths  as a chaste bride, the New Zion, and casts away the condemned synagogue ..."
The Church is very much against the Jewish religion, yet it doesn't subscribe at all to any racial-based anti-semitism.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 03:10:13 AM by augustin717 »
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Offline Tallitot

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2009, 03:08:17 AM »
But Chrysostom does share responsibility for being a father of modern anti-semitism in the western world.

Would you consider yourself to be "pro-Jewish" by any stretch of the imagination?  I would assume that you are just as critical of their strange rituals and fanatical beliefs as of any other religious group.  Certainly their ethno-centrism must be repugnant to you, with them being the apple of their God's eye; the center of the universe.
Except Judaism doesn't teach that.
btw when I brought up the issue of homophobia and anti-semitism on the original thread, i refering to a specific poster, not all Christians.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 03:10:39 AM by Tallitot »
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2009, 03:16:18 AM »
Except Judaism doesn't teach that.

What does Judaism teach about Teresa of Calcutta?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 03:16:29 AM by Alveus Lacuna »