Author Topic: Circumcision in Orthodoxy  (Read 44639 times)

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #135 on: July 12, 2018, 09:27:09 PM »
Actually your toes are vital for balance.  On the whole, bearing in mind my opposition to circumcision, given the choice of losing that vs. losing my toes or the outermost finger, which is vitally

I've spoken to intact men who would rather lose an arm or a leg than their foreskin.  Seems illogical if they, who've experienced having a foreskin, thought it to be a useless flap of skin.

Saying this as an opponent of circumcision who also has not been subjected to the ancient practice of the House of Abraham, or is, as you rather grossly put it, “intact,” I believe I can say with some certainty that the “intact men” you spoke with are completely insane. 

I’d rather face castration and become a eunuch than have to live life with only one leg, or without my right arm, or blind, or deaf, or without my sense of smell or, particularly relevant in the context of people referring to St. Maximos the Confessor as “dumb,” (which bothers me to the core), with my tongue removed.  Indeed, I have to confess a strong sympathy for Origen in this respect; if the alternative was ceaseles persecution and interference, I might well succumb to the temptation to grant the Romans what we might euphemistically refer to as an anatomical gift, if it got them off my case and allowed me to continue my catechtical work and my life of prayer unimpeded.

Also, having been for my adult life a scholar of the Unix operating system, I could finally satisfy the demands of Dilbert’s pointy haired boss for a Chief Eunuch Programmer to oversee his Unix development efforts.  Amusing to consider in that context that the unofficial slogan for Unix is “Live Free or Die,” having been borrowed from New Hampshire in honor of the Unix community being the birthplace of the Open Source and Free Software communities (Christianforums.com runs on Linux, an open source Unix clone).  I am pretty sure if someone threatened to steal all my UNIX systems I would let them have that which Origen parted with as well; the thought of life without Unix is worse than the thought of life as a Eunuch.  I expect anyone who has had the joy of doing amazing automation with a simple shell script or has fallen in love with programs like ed, bc/dc, grep, vim, emacs or LaTeX, would make a similiar decision (Jurassic Park is also one of my favorite films due to the love UNIX, more specifically SGI IRIX, gets in it, recall the hacker girl who saves the day after saying “This is a UNIX system!  i know Unix!).”

Also, castration might well be preferrable to losing my favorite car, which I nickname the Desert Eagle, a 2007 Dodge Charger R/T which belonged to a dirty cop, I recently discovered, before I bought it in 2008.  Of course if I keep driving it at speeds approaching 155 MPH I might well involuntarily lose both posessions in a firery crash.

Either way, Melkite, the gents you spoke with strike me as caring way more about their “intactness” than is warranted, although you could argue I myself represent the opposite end of the spectrum, but as a thinking man and an intellectual, for me, there is more to life than sex, and while I should prefer to neither be circumcised nor castrated, I can think of many worse things, as enumerated above.  Also, perhaps the litany of things I would be willing to lose the whole works for might perhaps  reassure you that you aren’t “missing out” on anything that important.
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Offline melkite

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #136 on: July 13, 2018, 12:26:51 AM »
Why did he suddenly respond to posts written in 2009?

Because he did a search for Orthodoxy and circumcision the other day and found this thread.

Offline melkite

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #137 on: July 13, 2018, 12:38:47 AM »
Either way, Melkite, the gents you spoke with strike me as caring way more about their “intactness” than is warranted, although you could argue I myself represent the opposite end of the spectrum, but as a thinking man and an intellectual, for me, there is more to life than sex, and while I should prefer to neither be circumcised nor castrated, I can think of many worse things, as enumerated above.  Also, perhaps the litany of things I would be willing to lose the whole works for might perhaps  reassure you that you aren’t “missing out” on anything that important.

I don't know that I'd say they're insane, but I can see that they are on an extreme end.  Different people place different value on different things for different reasons, I guess.  I can't imagine why anyone would place a higher value on a material posession than a part of their own body.

Part of what makes it so infuriating for me is that, whether I am missing something significant or not, I'll never know.  I should be able to know, but now I never will.  I would love to know for myself that it is nothing important and to take my intactness for granted.  But because I've been robbed of it, it is now of great value to me.  I probably would not part with an arm or a leg to get it back if I could, but there are certainly no material posessions I wouldn't forsake in a heartbeat to go back in time and make it so this had never been done to me.  The not knowing makes it unresolvable for me.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #138 on: July 13, 2018, 01:35:37 PM »
These quotes of St. Maximos also represent a triumph of the Alexandrian School, of allegorical and spiritual interpretation, the approach of St. Clement, Origen, St. Athanasius, St. Anthony and St. Pachomius the fathers of monasticism, and St. Cyril, over the literalist Antiochene school and the literalist-fundamentalist interpretations associated with it, which have been revived in recent years by various Protestant and Restorationist sects.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. I mean, like, totally completely clearly. Clear as non-existent glass clearly.

Offline biro

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #139 on: July 13, 2018, 02:01:33 PM »
Why did he suddenly respond to posts written in 2009?

Because he did a search for Orthodoxy and circumcision the other day and found this thread.

But he didn't see the posts were written nine years ago.
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Offline Sethrak

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #140 on: July 13, 2018, 03:05:34 PM »
Well ~ haven't read every post ~ we don't circumcise ```

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Female Circumcision is mutilation practiced by the insane ```

Offline melkite

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #141 on: July 13, 2018, 04:38:37 PM »
But he didn't see the posts were written nine years ago.

He did see; he just thought it was still worth it to post.

Offline melkite

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #142 on: July 13, 2018, 04:40:40 PM »
Female Circumcision is mutilation practiced by the insane ```

Female circumcision, as a moral issue, should not be separated from male circumcision as the radical feminists demand.  Women do not have a greater right to genital integrity than men.  One form of FGM is physically worse than circumcision.  The most common forms of FGM are physically less damaging than male circumcision as commonly practiced.  However, morally, the mutilation is of the same gravity.

Offline Arachne

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #143 on: July 13, 2018, 04:43:46 PM »
One form of FGM is physically worse than circumcision.  The most common forms of FGM are physically less damaging than male circumcision as commonly practiced.

This is why we need mandatory sex-ed as part of the science curriculum, with no opt-out. ::)
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Offline Sethrak

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #144 on: July 13, 2018, 04:59:52 PM »
Yes sir ~ Mandatory Sex Ed ~ and who should teach us ~ do we get to look over the curricular ~ or do the ones who know what's best choose for us ```

Offline Arachne

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #145 on: July 13, 2018, 05:02:21 PM »
Yes sir ~ Mandatory Sex Ed ~ and who should teach us ~ do we get to look over the curricular ~ or do the ones who know what's best choose for us ```

Biology teachers.
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Offline melkite

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #146 on: July 13, 2018, 05:03:35 PM »
One form of FGM is physically worse than circumcision.  The most common forms of FGM are physically less damaging than male circumcision as commonly practiced.

This is why we need mandatory sex-ed as part of the science curriculum, with no opt-out. ::)

Not really where I was going with it, but if mandatory indoctrination were the only way to keep kids' safe from genital mutilation, and I had any say in it...guess what, your kids are getting indoctrinated!

Offline Sethrak

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #147 on: July 13, 2018, 05:05:10 PM »
Who are Biology Teachers taught by ~ do we the people teach them or do the wise and good ~ with stiff necks get the say ```

Offline Arachne

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #148 on: July 13, 2018, 05:07:38 PM »
One form of FGM is physically worse than circumcision.  The most common forms of FGM are physically less damaging than male circumcision as commonly practiced.

This is why we need mandatory sex-ed as part of the science curriculum, with no opt-out. ::)

Not really where I was going with it, but if mandatory indoctrination schooling in facts about the build and functions of their own and their prospective sexual partners' bodies were the only way to keep kids' safe from genital mutilation, and I had any say in it...guess what, your kids are getting indoctrinated schooled!

Fixed that for you. :)
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Offline Arachne

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #149 on: July 13, 2018, 05:09:46 PM »
Who are Biology Teachers taught by ~ do we the people teach them or do the wise and good ~ with stiff necks get the say ```

University professors were people, last I checked; the stiffness of their necks or lack thereof has nothing to do with imparting knowledge.
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Offline Sethrak

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #150 on: July 13, 2018, 05:20:54 PM »
We have the knowledge ~ university this and that have only to add their fush ```

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Offline melkite

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #151 on: July 13, 2018, 05:25:04 PM »
One form of FGM is physically worse than circumcision.  The most common forms of FGM are physically less damaging than male circumcision as commonly practiced.

This is why we need mandatory sex-ed as part of the science curriculum, with no opt-out. ::)

Not really where I was going with it, but if mandatory indoctrination schooling in facts about the build and functions of their own and their prospective sexual partners' bodies were the only way to keep kids' safe from genital mutilation, and I had any say in it...guess what, your kids are getting indoctrinated schooled!

Fixed that for you. :)

Sorry, I didn't realize you were agreeing with me.  The eyeroll emoji made me think you were being sarcastic.

Offline Arachne

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #152 on: July 13, 2018, 05:27:49 PM »
We have the knowledge ~ university this and that have only to add their fush ```

Evidently not.
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Offline Arachne

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #153 on: July 13, 2018, 05:28:42 PM »
One form of FGM is physically worse than circumcision.  The most common forms of FGM are physically less damaging than male circumcision as commonly practiced.

This is why we need mandatory sex-ed as part of the science curriculum, with no opt-out. ::)

Not really where I was going with it, but if mandatory indoctrination schooling in facts about the build and functions of their own and their prospective sexual partners' bodies were the only way to keep kids' safe from genital mutilation, and I had any say in it...guess what, your kids are getting indoctrinated schooled!

Fixed that for you. :)

Sorry, I didn't realize you were agreeing with me.  The eyeroll emoji made me think you were being sarcastic.

I wasn't agreeing that even the lightest version of FGM is less damaging than male circumcision. I can see that it's a very sore subject for you, but sticking to facts would help. Text doesn't convey tone well, though.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 05:30:24 PM by Arachne »
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Offline melkite

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #154 on: July 13, 2018, 06:04:51 PM »
I wasn't agreeing that even the lightest version of FGM is less damaging than male circumcision. I can see that it's a very sore subject for you, but sticking to facts would help. Text doesn't convey tone well, though.

I see.  You're right, text doesn't convey context very well.  So, if you don't agree that the lightest version of FGM is less damaging than circumcision, are you saying you think that a ritual nick to the clitoral hood is more damaging than the total loss of the foreskin?

Offline Arachne

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #155 on: July 13, 2018, 06:20:05 PM »
I wasn't agreeing that even the lightest version of FGM is less damaging than male circumcision. I can see that it's a very sore subject for you, but sticking to facts would help. Text doesn't convey tone well, though.

I see.  You're right, text doesn't convey context very well.  So, if you don't agree that the lightest version of FGM is less damaging than circumcision, are you saying you think that a ritual nick to the clitoral hood is more damaging than the total loss of the foreskin?

The lightest version of FGM is not a ritual nick to the clitoral hood. It can be the removal of the hood, but that is not technically acceptable in the cultures that mandate it. So, in practice, tier 1 FGM is a total clitoridectomy, which would be equivalent to removal of at least the glans penis. Don't even try to equate the two.
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Offline melkite

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #156 on: July 13, 2018, 06:26:42 PM »
The lightest version of FGM is not a ritual nick to the clitoral hood. It can be the removal of the hood, but that is not technically acceptable in the cultures that mandate it. So, in practice, tier 1 FGM is a total clitoridectomy, which would be equivalent to removal of at least the glans penis. Don't even try to equate the two.

This is untrue.  Respectfully, you're the one having trouble sticking to facts.  FGM in Southeast Asia, one of the areas in the world where it is most prevalent, does not usually involve removal of any part of the clitoris itself.

Offline Arachne

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #157 on: July 13, 2018, 06:56:30 PM »
The lightest version of FGM is not a ritual nick to the clitoral hood. It can be the removal of the hood, but that is not technically acceptable in the cultures that mandate it. So, in practice, tier 1 FGM is a total clitoridectomy, which would be equivalent to removal of at least the glans penis. Don't even try to equate the two.

This is untrue.  Respectfully, you're the one having trouble sticking to facts.  FGM in Southeast Asia, one of the areas in the world where it is most prevalent, does not usually involve removal of any part of the clitoris itself.

WHO and Unicef data points at tiers 1 (excision of the hood and part or whole of the clitoris) and 4 (other methods, including clitoral piercing, scarification or cauterisation, or vaginal cutting) being prevalent in Indonesia and Malaysia. That doesn't negate the prevalence of more extreme practices in nearly 30 other countries. Nor the fact that any kind of cut is not only completely unnecessary but actively detrimental to a woman's health, and not only the sexual aspect of it.

Now, I consider circumcision completely unnecessary as well, without medical reasons. I just don't see it as mutilation - unless it's botched - because a circumcised penis is, for all intents and purposes, every bit as functional as an uncircumcised one.
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Offline melkite

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #158 on: July 13, 2018, 07:08:23 PM »
WHO and Unicef data points at tiers 1 (excision of the hood and part or whole of the clitoris) and 4 (other methods, including clitoral piercing, scarification or cauterisation, or vaginal cutting) being prevalent in Indonesia and Malaysia. That doesn't negate the prevalence of more extreme practices in nearly 30 other countries. Nor the fact that any kind of cut is not only completely unnecessary but actively detrimental to a woman's health, and not only the sexual aspect of it.

This is mostly true, but also highly exaggerated by feminists.  The detriment to women's health is usually pretty low if infibulation isn't involved - just as any amputation of a peripheral part doesn't affect the overall health all that much.  All forms of FGM affect women's sexual function negatively, but not to the same degree.  A cut to the clitoral hood or labia, for example, would not distort the sexual function any more (in fact, less) than male circumcision affects the function of the male.

Quote
Now, I consider circumcision completely unnecessary as well, without medical reasons. I just don't see it as mutilation - unless it's botched - because a circumcised penis is, for all intents and purposes, every bit as functional as an uncircumcised one.

All male circumcision involves elimination of the most sensitive parts of the penis.  This has already been established by peer-reviewed studies.  There are degrees to this as well, and some circumcisions do not affect the function as negatively as others.  You are absolutely wrong, though, in saying the circumcised penis is every bit as functional as the uncircumcised one.  Yes, the circumcised penis can still function enough, usually, to get by, but it is not fully functional.  To suggest otherwise is to assume the main purpose of the penis is nothing more than, essentially, (sorry for the crudeness) a pump and dump organ.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #159 on: July 13, 2018, 07:16:30 PM »
What if my reasoning is practical rather than theological?  I am circumcised, and my wife is worried that the son needs to look like his father for his own psychological security. 

Although, I was not planning on showing my son my penis, but whatever.

Well, I know it's too late, but I think there is more chance of your son's psychological security being damaged by realizing his parents mutilated his penis than by knowing his doesn't look like his father's mutilated penis.
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Offline Arachne

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #160 on: July 13, 2018, 07:22:09 PM »
All male circumcision involves elimination of the most sensitive parts of the penis.  This has already been established by peer-reviewed studies.  There are degrees to this as well, and some circumcisions do not affect the function as negatively as others.  You are absolutely wrong, though, in saying the circumcised penis is every bit as functional as the uncircumcised one.  Yes, the circumcised penis can still function enough, usually, to get by, but it is not fully functional.  To suggest otherwise is to assume the main purpose of the penis is nothing more than, essentially, (sorry for the crudeness) a pump and dump organ.

Dude. The most sensitive part of the penis is the glans, which is most definitely not removed. It does become less sensitive without its protective covering, much like the skin develops calluses against friction, but unless one is circumcised as an adult and has experience to compare before and after, 'what might have been' is just speculation.

As spousal unit (who is both circumcised and a scientist with long experience in teaching the particular subject) puts it, 'the extra time is worth the trade-off'.
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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #161 on: July 13, 2018, 07:37:25 PM »
Ah, great. Some guy's obsessed with his 'mutilated' penis.
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Offline melkite

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #162 on: July 13, 2018, 07:39:09 PM »
What do you make of God requiring it of the Jews?

It's a huge stumbling block for me.  I don't know how to reconcile its importance for male sexual function and his obvious intent to design it in the first place with his command to remove it.  I know that the original Abrahamic form was less severe than modern circumcision, but it still would have destroyed a good bit of function and eliminated the most sensitive part.  I recognize that God has the authority and the right to demand of us whatever he wants, even obliteration of our own body parts.  But it seems to me to be contradictory that a loving, merciful God would have made such a demand.  God does not do or require everything he is able to.  If the Biblical account is more or less literal history, it makes me significantly less, let's say enthusiastic, about my relation to God and more fearful of my eternal prospects.

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #163 on: July 13, 2018, 07:40:58 PM »
The lightest version of FGM is not a ritual nick to the clitoral hood. It can be the removal of the hood, but that is not technically acceptable in the cultures that mandate it. So, in practice, tier 1 FGM is a total clitoridectomy, which would be equivalent to removal of at least the glans penis. Don't even try to equate the two.

This is untrue.  Respectfully, you're the one having trouble sticking to facts.  FGM in Southeast Asia, one of the areas in the world where it is most prevalent, does not usually involve removal of any part of the clitoris itself.

You are completely wrong. FGM is most prevalent in Africa. They most definitely do remove the clitoris.

Unless male circumcision is badly botched, it causes no loss of sexual sensation.

Female circumcision causes total loss of sexual sensation. That's why men do it: to make sure the future wife wouldn't "want to cheat."

You need to stop reading crackpot websites.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 07:41:42 PM by biro »
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #164 on: July 13, 2018, 07:41:06 PM »

Yes, sex is less pleasurable after circumcision as many adult men who have gone through the procedure have attested.  But then that was the point of circumcision and under the Old Covenant.  It is as a renunciation if the flesh, the subduing of the carnal and the raising of the spiritual.  St Paul did not require it of the Greeks but neither did he require the Jewish Christians to stop it.  Circumcising St Timothy himself. 
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 07:43:04 PM by Deacon Lance »
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Offline melkite

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #165 on: July 13, 2018, 09:01:55 PM »
You are completely wrong. FGM is most prevalent in Africa. They most definitely do remove the clitoris.

Unless male circumcision is badly botched, it causes no loss of sexual sensation.

Female circumcision causes total loss of sexual sensation. That's why men do it: to make sure the future wife wouldn't "want to cheat."

You need to stop reading crackpot websites.

FGM is definitely prevalent in parts of central Africa and Egypt.  It is wide spread throughout Indonesia and Malaysia. 

Circumcision ALWAYS reduces sexual sensation significantly.  You are wrong that there is no loss.

Female circumcision does not cause total loss of sexual sensation, since it does not remove all of the sexually sensitive nerve endings in a woman's body.  Women in FGM cultures are often proud of their circumcision, just as many American men are, and think we're nuts for thinking it destroys their ability to enjoy sex.  They report being able to enjoy sex to, what they consider, the full extent.  You are merely regurgitating the American party line on FGM and have not given it any critical thought.

The British Medical Journal, Royal Dutch Medical Association, Danish Medical Association, Australasian College of Medicine - these are world renowned Medical organizations and a research journal, not crackpot websites.

Offline melkite

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #166 on: July 13, 2018, 09:15:07 PM »

Yes, sex is less pleasurable after circumcision as many adult men who have gone through the procedure have attested.  But then that was the point of circumcision and under the Old Covenant.  It is as a renunciation if the flesh, the subduing of the carnal and the raising of the spiritual.  St Paul did not require it of the Greeks but neither did he require the Jewish Christians to stop it.  Circumcising St Timothy himself.

Why then did God create us with flesh he wanted us to renounce?  He designed sexual sensation for the sole purpose of us to choose to renounce it?  That pill is too big for me to swallow.

Since circumcision merely makes a man less capable of experiencing sexual sensation, but does nothing to lessen libido, why was God unaware of this if it was his intention to renounce the flesh?  Aren't the fathers speaking of the passions when they talk about renouncing the flesh?  Since women are not exempt from renouncing the flesh, why were they not required to give up their sexual sensation as well?

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #167 on: July 13, 2018, 09:17:51 PM »

Yes, sex is less pleasurable after circumcision as many adult men who have gone through the procedure have attested.  But then that was the point of circumcision and under the Old Covenant.  It is as a renunciation if the flesh, the subduing of the carnal and the raising of the spiritual.  St Paul did not require it of the Greeks but neither did he require the Jewish Christians to stop it.  Circumcising St Timothy himself.

Not what I've read.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #168 on: July 13, 2018, 09:56:03 PM »
Unless male circumcision is badly botched, it causes no loss of sexual sensation.

You clearly don’t have a penis.
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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #169 on: July 13, 2018, 10:29:25 PM »

Yes, sex is less pleasurable after circumcision as many adult men who have gone through the procedure have attested.  But then that was the point of circumcision and under the Old Covenant.  It is as a renunciation if the flesh, the subduing of the carnal and the raising of the spiritual.  St Paul did not require it of the Greeks but neither did he require the Jewish Christians to stop it.  Circumcising St Timothy himself.

Not what I've read.

You need to stop reading crackpot websites.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #170 on: July 13, 2018, 10:51:15 PM »

Yes, sex is less pleasurable after circumcision as many adult men who have gone through the procedure have attested.  But then that was the point of circumcision and under the Old Covenant.  It is as a renunciation if the flesh, the subduing of the carnal and the raising of the spiritual.  St Paul did not require it of the Greeks but neither did he require the Jewish Christians to stop it.  Circumcising St Timothy himself.

Not what I've read.
Read some more.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #171 on: July 13, 2018, 11:06:16 PM »

Yes, sex is less pleasurable after circumcision as many adult men who have gone through the procedure have attested.  But then that was the point of circumcision and under the Old Covenant.  It is as a renunciation if the flesh, the subduing of the carnal and the raising of the spiritual.  St Paul did not require it of the Greeks but neither did he require the Jewish Christians to stop it.  Circumcising St Timothy himself.

Why then did God create us with flesh he wanted us to renounce?  He designed sexual sensation for the sole purpose of us to choose to renounce it?  That pill is too big for me to swallow.

Since circumcision merely makes a man less capable of experiencing sexual sensation, but does nothing to lessen libido, why was God unaware of this if it was his intention to renounce the flesh?  Aren't the fathers speaking of the passions when they talk about renouncing the flesh?  Since women are not exempt from renouncing the flesh, why were they not required to give up their sexual sensation as well?

Some are asked to renounce, like monks.  Some are asked to abstain for periods.  We are asked to fast from many pleasurable things and to be moderate when we do partake.

And let’s not be over dramatic, men report some loss of sensation not the complete ruination of their sex experience.  As to women, they have to go through childbirth, men do not. 
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Offline melkite

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #172 on: July 13, 2018, 11:13:20 PM »
Some are asked to renounce, like monks.  Some are asked to abstain for periods.  We are asked to fast from many pleasurable things and to be moderate when we do partake.

And let’s not be over dramatic, men report some loss of sensation not the complete ruination of their sex experience.  As to women, they have to go through childbirth, men do not.

The circumcised child is never asked whether he is willing to renounce it.  It is robbed from him.  So let's not compare it to a willful abstinence.

Some men report some loss.  Some men report dramatic loss.  Women having to go through childbirth is not a sacrament of initiation, in either the old covenant or the new.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 11:13:40 PM by melkite »

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #173 on: July 13, 2018, 11:24:21 PM »
Some are asked to renounce, like monks.  Some are asked to abstain for periods.  We are asked to fast from many pleasurable things and to be moderate when we do partake.

And let’s not be over dramatic, men report some loss of sensation not the complete ruination of their sex experience.  As to women, they have to go through childbirth, men do not.

The circumcised child is never asked whether he is willing to renounce it.  It is robbed from him.  So let's not compare it to a willful abstinence.

Some men report some loss.  Some men report dramatic loss.  Women having to go through childbirth is not a sacrament of initiation, in either the old covenant or the new.
We don’t ask children if they want to be baptized, or vaccinated, and a host of other things.  Get over it.  There are better things to worry about.
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Offline melkite

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #174 on: July 13, 2018, 11:51:35 PM »
We don’t ask children if they want to be baptized, or vaccinated, and a host of other things.  Get over it.  There are better things to worry about.

Baptism and vaccination and the host of other things don't involve amputation.  Any other amputation and the parents would be locked up and lose custody of their kids.  Parents don't have unlimited license over their children.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 11:51:56 PM by melkite »

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #175 on: July 14, 2018, 12:00:34 AM »
We don’t ask children if they want to be baptized, or vaccinated, and a host of other things.  Get over it.  There are better things to worry about.

Baptism and vaccination and the host of other things don't involve amputation.  Any other amputation and the parents would be locked up and lose custody of their kids.  Parents don't have unlimited license over their children.
It is an accepted medical and cultural practice.  God required it of the Jews.  Parent do have license for this practice.  Continuing with this obsession with it isn’t spiritually healthy.
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Offline melkite

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #176 on: July 14, 2018, 12:56:34 AM »
It is an accepted medical and cultural practice.  God required it of the Jews.  Parent do have license for this practice.  Continuing with this obsession with it isn’t spiritually healthy.

Oh, come on! Just because something is an 'accepted medical and cultural' practice doesn't mean it is morally tolerable.  FGM is an accepted medical and cultural practice in the places it is practiced, and its proponents make the same medical excuses for practicing it that we do here for circumcision.  Abortion is an accepted medical and cultural practice throughout the West.  We don't accept immoral practices because the prevailing culture doesn't see a problem with it.

Evil is to be be called out, stamped out and utterly destroyed.  Circumcision is an inherently evil practice that has no place in a civilized society.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 12:59:33 AM by melkite »

Offline biro

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #177 on: July 14, 2018, 03:14:30 AM »
Unless male circumcision is badly botched, it causes no loss of sexual sensation.

You clearly don’t have a penis.

Oh, so they botched you?

Explains a lot.
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Offline biro

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #178 on: July 14, 2018, 03:15:12 AM »

Yes, sex is less pleasurable after circumcision as many adult men who have gone through the procedure have attested.  But then that was the point of circumcision and under the Old Covenant.  It is as a renunciation if the flesh, the subduing of the carnal and the raising of the spiritual.  St Paul did not require it of the Greeks but neither did he require the Jewish Christians to stop it.  Circumcising St Timothy himself.

Not what I've read.

You need to stop reading crackpot websites.

Stop copying, troll.
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Offline biro

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #179 on: July 14, 2018, 03:17:18 AM »
It was men who invented circumcision.

If anybody stops it, it'll have to be men.

Go argue with mohels, or with your parents. They are the ones responsible.
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