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Author Topic: UAOC Sobor applies to the EP for an 'Autonomous Church' status  (Read 10556 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 28, 2009, 04:20:50 AM »

Sobor of Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (not recognized by any mainstream EO Church), which was held on 26th of August, applies to the Ecumenical Patriarchate for the status of an Autonomous Church.

They also ask the EP to act more active in Ukraine (open a metochion, take part in theological conferences, involve in solving the Church situation in that country and similar stuff).

EP has not reacted yet.

Will Ukraine become second Estonia?

More in Belarusian and Ukrainian.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 04:42:17 AM by mike » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2009, 04:50:33 AM »

I'll respond when something more substantive comes out (i.e. a reaction from the EP).  This isn't news - we all knew it was coming sometime.  The reaction will be newsworthy.
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« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2009, 09:24:10 AM »

LOL.  That's putting it mildly.  Wonder when the "answer" will come.  There website uses the "Tomos of Autocephaly" from the EP for Poland as the basis of claiming to be outside of Moscow's jurisdiction.

the UAOC has just put the EP's Chambesy into a catch 22.
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« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2009, 09:31:36 AM »

the UAOC has just put the EP's Chambesy into a catch 22.

Only in Isaland.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2009, 09:37:05 AM »


Here we go again.  The EP will once again take it's time in officially responding.  In the mean time RISU, Asia News, and Ukrainian periodicals will come up with all kind of gossip and ridiculous news stories.  Same old, same old.

It will be interesting to see the EP's response (if any).

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« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 09:38:24 AM by Orthodoc » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2009, 09:39:11 AM »



Here we go again.  The EP will once again take it's time in officially responding.  In the mean time RISU, Asia News, and Ukrainian periodicals will come up with all kind of gossip and ridiculous news stories.  Same old, same old.

It will be interesting to see the EP's response 9if any).

Orthodoc

The Patriarch of Moscow, having played ball and signing Chambesy, would be fully within his rights to demand an answer from the EP. Now.

The EP has reiterated that Ukraine is in Moscow's jurisdiction.  There should be no official question.

Of course, it would be nice if Moscow, while pressing the EP, made Ukraine autonomous officially.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 09:43:51 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2009, 09:42:07 AM »



Here we go again.  The EP will once again take it's time in officially responding.  In the mean time RISU, Asia News, and Ukrainian periodicals will come up with all kind of gossip and ridiculous news stories.  Same old, same old.

It will be interesting to see the EP's response 9if any).

Orthodoc

The Patriarch of Moscow, having played ball and signing Chambesy, would be fully within his rights to demand an answer from the EP. Now.

...only in Isaland!
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« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2009, 09:45:57 AM »



Here we go again.  The EP will once again take it's time in officially responding.  In the mean time RISU, Asia News, and Ukrainian periodicals will come up with all kind of gossip and ridiculous news stories.  Same old, same old.

It will be interesting to see the EP's response 9if any).

Orthodoc

The Patriarch of Moscow, having played ball and signing Chambesy, would be fully within his rights to demand an answer from the EP. Now.

...only in Isaland!

Canon 8 of Ephesus and Chambesy.  If you want to locate Ephesus and Chambesy in Isaland (I've actually been to both), be my guest.

EP Sophronios III found himself out of a job over such interference.
http://books.google.com/books?id=UPr1ZCxPW6QC&pg=PA310&lpg=PA310&dq=Eastern+Churches+Fortescue+Sinai&source=bl&ots=qAa1_IeO0o&sig=rUrWFGFRNctCwTQBEZhxKLIoKfA&hl=en&ei=5d-XSpjAGpHSsQPB6KmOAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 09:50:27 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2009, 09:52:06 AM »



Here we go again.  The EP will once again take it's time in officially responding.  In the mean time RISU, Asia News, and Ukrainian periodicals will come up with all kind of gossip and ridiculous news stories.  Same old, same old.

It will be interesting to see the EP's response 9if any).

Orthodoc

The Patriarch of Moscow, having played ball and signing Chambesy, would be fully within his rights to demand an answer from the EP. Now.

The EP has reiterated that Ukraine is in Moscow's jurisdiction.  There should be no official question.

Of course, it would be nice if Moscow, while pressing the EP, made Ukraine autonomous officially.





Can you explain what you mean?  I thought that the UOC-MP is already officially autonomous.  Are you suggesting a change in title dropping the MP ?

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« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2009, 10:00:26 AM »



Here we go again.  The EP will once again take it's time in officially responding.  In the mean time RISU, Asia News, and Ukrainian periodicals will come up with all kind of gossip and ridiculous news stories.  Same old, same old.

It will be interesting to see the EP's response 9if any).

Orthodoc

The Patriarch of Moscow, having played ball and signing Chambesy, would be fully within his rights to demand an answer from the EP. Now.

...only in Isaland!

So far Isaland has provided enough reference material to back up its postings.  So much so, that Isaland doesn't have to resort to petty and tacky responses such as yours.

Orthodoc
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« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2009, 10:41:54 AM »



Here we go again.  The EP will once again take it's time in officially responding.  In the mean time RISU, Asia News, and Ukrainian periodicals will come up with all kind of gossip and ridiculous news stories.  Same old, same old.

It will be interesting to see the EP's response 9if any).

Orthodoc

The Patriarch of Moscow, having played ball and signing Chambesy, would be fully within his rights to demand an answer from the EP. Now.

The EP has reiterated that Ukraine is in Moscow's jurisdiction.  There should be no official question.

Of course, it would be nice if Moscow, while pressing the EP, made Ukraine autonomous officially.





Can you explain what you mean?  I thought that the UOC-MP is already officially autonomous.  Are you suggesting a change in title dropping the MP ?

Orthodoc

Somewhere here Fr. Ambrose explained how the Church of Ukraine doesn't have the same the same level of Autonomy as does the Church of Japan.  It should be at the same level.

The UOC-MP, doesn't need the MP part, because its competitors are not the UOC.
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« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2009, 10:53:12 AM »



Here we go again.  The EP will once again take it's time in officially responding.  In the mean time RISU, Asia News, and Ukrainian periodicals will come up with all kind of gossip and ridiculous news stories.  Same old, same old.

It will be interesting to see the EP's response 9if any).

Orthodoc

The Patriarch of Moscow, having played ball and signing Chambesy, would be fully within his rights to demand an answer from the EP. Now.

...only in Isaland!

So far Isaland has provided enough reference material to back up its postings.  So much so, that Isaland doesn't have to resort to petty and tacky responses such as yours.

Orthodoc
A not unsurprising response from a well-known EP basher.

The irony of this "autocephalous" church applying to the EP for autonomous status seems to escape you both. The EP has repeatedly confirmed the UOC-MP as the canonical church in Ukrania.
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« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2009, 11:35:28 AM »



Here we go again.  The EP will once again take it's time in officially responding.  In the mean time RISU, Asia News, and Ukrainian periodicals will come up with all kind of gossip and ridiculous news stories.  Same old, same old.

It will be interesting to see the EP's response 9if any).

Orthodoc

The Patriarch of Moscow, having played ball and signing Chambesy, would be fully within his rights to demand an answer from the EP. Now.

...only in Isaland!

So far Isaland has provided enough reference material to back up its postings.  So much so, that Isaland doesn't have to resort to petty and tacky responses such as yours.

Orthodoc
A not unsurprising response from a well-known EP basher.

The irony of this "autocephalous" church applying to the EP for autonomous status seems to escape you both. The EP has repeatedly confirmed the UOC-MP as the canonical church in Ukrania.

As I was taught as a CHILD - 'Sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me!'  It has not escaped either one of us that the EP has repeatedly confirmed the UOC-MP as the canonical church.  So I guess we can expect a response within a day or so?  Why do you suppose the uncanonical Ukrainian churches seem to disregard the EP support of the UOC-MP by repeadly making the same request over and over again?

Orthodoc

P.S.  Shouldn't your response read - 'the irony of the supposedly autocephalous church etc'.

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« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2009, 11:43:54 AM »



Here we go again.  The EP will once again take it's time in officially responding.  In the mean time RISU, Asia News, and Ukrainian periodicals will come up with all kind of gossip and ridiculous news stories.  Same old, same old.

It will be interesting to see the EP's response 9if any).

Orthodoc

The Patriarch of Moscow, having played ball and signing Chambesy, would be fully within his rights to demand an answer from the EP. Now.

...only in Isaland!

So far Isaland has provided enough reference material to back up its postings.  So much so, that Isaland doesn't have to resort to petty and tacky responses such as yours.

Orthodoc
A not unsurprising response from a well-known EP basher.

The irony of this "autocephalous" church applying to the EP for autonomous status seems to escape you both. The EP has repeatedly confirmed the UOC-MP as the canonical church in Ukrania.

As I was taught as a CHILD - 'Sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me!'  It has not escaped either one of us that the EP has repeatedly confirmed the UOC-MP as the canonical church.  So I guess we can expect a response within a day or so?  Why do you suppose the uncanonical Ukrainian churches seem to disregard the EP support of the UOC-MP by repeadly making the same request over and over again?

Orthodoc

P.S.  Shouldn't your response read - 'the irony of the supposedly autocephalous church etc'.



Shall I add "testy pendantry" as well to the list? The quotation marks sufficed for me.
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« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2009, 12:30:09 PM »

the UAOC has just put the EP's Chambesy into a catch 22.

Hardly.  Unless you're claiming that Kyiv was somehow outside the canonical boundaries of the Russian Church when it was the see of the Primate of the Russias.
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« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2009, 12:46:32 PM »

FWIW, as a Ukrainian I find it dis-heartening that for country that is predominantly Orthodox, that they must have such infighting and disagreements over jurisdiction. It seems like rather than having a million Protestant denominations (as we do here in the US), there are a million Orthodox "jurisdictions" (for lack of a better term) or "groups" over there.

By the grace of God I hope one day they will have one Ukrainian Patriarch that is autonomous and canonically recognized by Worldwide Orthodoxy. One which all of the flocks in Ukraine can come under peacefully.
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« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2009, 12:51:28 PM »

the UAOC has just put the EP's Chambesy into a catch 22.

Hardly.  Unless you're claiming that Kyiv was somehow outside the canonical boundaries of the Russian Church when it was the see of the Primate of the Russias.

That is EXACTLY what some Ukrainians claim:
Quote
PATRIARCHAL AND SYNODICALLY CANONICAL TOMOS

+GREGORIOS VII, by the grace of God Archbishop of Constantinople -the New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch

Examining this request with love, taking into consideration the structions of the holy canons, which have established that the system of church affairs should correspond with the political and community forms (IV Ecumenical Council, canon 17, VI Ecumenical Council, canon 38), as well as the reasoning of Photius: "It is acceptable that laws which relate to church affairs, and especially parish matters, should correspond with political and administrative changes", from another point of view, bowing before the demands of canonical obligations, which impose upon our Holy Ecumenical See concern for Orthodox Churches, who are in need; considering also the fact, which is not contradicted by history (for it is recorded that the first separation from our See of the Kyivan Metropolia and the Orthodox Metropolia of Lithuania and Poland, dependent upon it, as well as their incorporation within the Holy Moscovite Church was accomplished contrary to canon law, as also all that which was agreed upon regarding the full church autonomy of the Kyivan Metropolitan, who at the time had the title Exarch of the Ecumenical See),..

And the Ukrainian interpretation:"In this Tomos, the previous transfer of the Kyivan Church to the jurisdiction of Moscow (1685) was declared uncanonical and the independence of the Kyivan Metropolitanate (The Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church) was fully restored."
http://www.ukrainianorthodoxchurchinexile.org/1924_tomos_of_autocephaly.html
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« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2009, 01:08:59 PM »

I was under the impression that the EP has not written off Ukraine.  I believe he said to come back to him once Ukraine had resolved it's inner squabbles and had ONLY one Ukrainian church - not the three that there currently are.  In other words, once we have put our own affairs in order he would reconsider our request.
I don't think we are quite there, yet.
I pray it will be someday soon.
Lord, have mercy!

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« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2009, 01:34:27 PM »

FWIW, as a Ukrainian I find it dis-heartening that for country that is predominantly Orthodox, that they must have such infighting and disagreements over jurisdiction. It seems like rather than having a million Protestant denominations (as we do here in the US), there are a million Orthodox "jurisdictions" (for lack of a better term) or "groups" over there.

By the grace of God I hope one day they will have one Ukrainian Patriarch that is autonomous and canonically recognized by Worldwide Orthodoxy. One which all of the flocks in Ukraine can come under peacefully.

And I will gladly join you in that prayer.

Orthodoc
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« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2009, 02:13:58 PM »

The request:
http://www.uaoc.info/ua/news/news_/?pid=252
Quote
His All Holiness
Bartholomew
Archbishop of Constantinople and New Rome
Ecumenical Patriarch

Your All Holiness!

With filial love and honor, we, bishops of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, turn to your All Holiness with synodal request to extend your labors with healing the church schism in Ukraine.  

Realizing the value for the Great Church of Constantinople and the whole of Orthodoxy in general of the preparation of the Great and Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church, we raise our own prayers that this Synod would be convened as soon as possible, and its actions helped to update and consolidate the Orthodox Church. However, we ask your All Holiness, as the good shepherd, do not miss the pastoral care and problems of the multimillion Ukrainian people, who today suffer from a split in their church.  

The tragic division of the Ukrainian Church in church consciousness was due to the crisis that broke from the ideal of Christian universality. Heading towards the Ecumenical Orthodox, our Church has condemned ethnic phyletism's [as a] unified ideology and declared the abandonment of ethnic phyletism as a means of church building (Statement of the Bishops' UAOC on August 15, 2006). However, as witnesses and members of religious processes, with sadness we note that without the active participation of the Ecumenical Patriarchate the new universal dimension of Ukrainian Orthodoxy is not completely solved.

Unification of the Orthodox Church in Ukraine can not be formally or mechanically. Achieving unity should be the result of the process of the recovery of consciousness and church life, releasing them from external secular motivations. We strive to gain a complete ecclesiology, aspire to a united Christian Church being the discovery of freedom and universality. With this in mind, we can not accept as the basis of association/(re)union the proposed idea of restoring us to the Russian Orthodox civilization or other secular values.

Your All Holiness! Today, when our church is suffering from separation, we call on you to not only pray for healing the split in Ukraine, but also to provide us with medicines that can heal wounds on the body of the Ukrainian Church.

We call on the Ecumenical Patriarchate to develop and implement a coherent theological church program, which aims to instill in Ukraine a catholic church consciousness. In particular, in our opinion, to improve the consciousness of the church would be extremely important:
  • assigning the leading theologians of the Ecumenical Patriarchate to resolving the Ukrainian church problem;
  • the theologians of the Ecumenical Patriarchate collaborating with leading humanitarian and theological schools in Ukraine;
  • implementation of a publishing program, which would be intended to acquaint the Ukrainian Orthodox Christians with the achievements of theological thought of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, in particular in the field of ecclesiology, canon law and the history of the Ecumenical Patriarchate;
  • participation of representatives of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in scientific activities in Ukraine closer and active than today, involving senior representative orthodox scholars of Ukraine in scientific and other events held on the initiative or with the assistance of the Ecumenical Patriarchate;
  • opening in Kiev of a yard (? подвір’я) or Information and Cultural Center of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

On the other hand, the episcopate of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church once again turns to the countenance of the Mother Church, to escape from the artificial canonical isolation, and recovery fellow participation with the World Wide [or Ecumenical/Universal] Orthodox, our church is ready and wants to join the Ecumenical Patriarchate, with the rights of autonomy. While gaining autocephaly was and remains the strategic goal of Ukrainian autocephalous movement, to overcome the division we are ready to go for significant concessions, sacrificing their own interests for the greater good of the Church.

Given this, the episcopate of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church appeals to your All Holiness to request to intensify dialogue and to consider possible compromise solutions to the Ukrainian church matters.

With filial love we also ask your All Holiness to pray for our Church, its hierarchy and the God beloved Ukraine, with its pious people

In filial love and obedience

+ Methodius
Metropolitan of Kiev and Ukraine
Of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church

+ ANDREI
Metropolitan of Galicia
Locum tenens, Ivano-Frankivsk Diocese

+ ROMAN
Metropolitan Vinnitsa and Bratslava

+ JOHN
Archbishop of Uman

+ PETER
Archbishop on Krefalda and Bona

+ Makarov
Archbishop of Lviv
Locum tenens Rivne, Volyn and Taurian Diocese

+ Theodosius
Archbishop of Drogobych and Sambir

+ Hilarion
Bishop of Cherkassy Kirovograd

+ Michael
Fastovsky Bishop, Diocesan Vicar of Kyiv,

+ VLADIMIR
Bishop of Zhytomyr and Polessky

Any questions?
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« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2009, 02:16:19 PM »

I was under the impression that the EP has not written off Ukraine.  I believe he said to come back to him once Ukraine had resolved it's inner squabbles and had ONLY one Ukrainian church - not the three that there currently are.  In other words, once we have put our own affairs in order he would reconsider our request.

In other words, he's not willing to do the work nor take the heat, but just enjoy the benefits to advance its own agenda.

Any questions why the Phanar is the not the solution, but part of the problem?


Quote
I don't think we are quite there, yet.
I pray it will be someday soon.
Lord, have mercy!

I pray that too.
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« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2009, 04:38:01 AM »

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The letter to Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew from the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC) will be reviewed at the session of the Holy Synod in Constantinople on September 28, 2009. UNIAN-Religion reported that General Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate Archimandrite Elpidophoros Lambriniadis informed the publication “Kommersant-Ukraina” of this.

After the session of the Holy Synod, a delegation of the Ecumenical Patriarchate will come to Ukraine for further review. “No decision will be made fast or spontaneously. We are planning the visit of the Patriarchate’s delegation to Ukraine for the beginning of October. During the visit there will be a meeting between representatives of the Holy Synod and Metropolitan Mefodiy (head of the UAOC), where the given question will be discussed, after which we will make a definitive decision,” said the archimandrite.

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) skeptically regards the perspective of the UAOC coming under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. “The UAOC has practically no chances – during Patriarch Bartholomew’s visit to Kyiv he clearly made it understood that he will only converse with a canonical Church, thus with us,” the press secretary of the head of t he UOC-MP proto-hierarch Heorhij Kovalenko is quoted by “Kommersant.”

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate (UOC-KP) responds the same way to the letter of Metropolitan Mefodiy. "We really doubt that Patriarch Bartholomew will accept the UAOC under his omophorion, the more so since it is a small Orthodox jurisdiction,” said the head of the informational-publication department of the UOC-KP Bishop Yevstratiy (Zorya). He believes that the UAOC’s appeal to Constantinople was influenced by the head of the Russian Orthodox Church’s visit to Ukraine. “After Kirill’s visit to Ukraine, the UAOC understood that Moscow will not support the creation of a national church in Ukraine, so they again focused their attention on Constantinople,” feels Bishop Yevstratij.

As RISU reported, on August 26, 2009, the Hierarchal Synod of the UAOC sent an appeal to the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew with a request to accept the UAOC into the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate with rights of autonomy.

source

emphasis mine
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« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2009, 07:54:14 AM »


In other words, he's not willing to do the work nor take the heat, but just enjoy the benefits to advance its own agenda.

Any questions why the Phanar is the not the solution, but part of the problem?


Your interpretation in the first statement rendering the second pointless.
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« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2009, 09:38:09 AM »

Quote
The letter to Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew from the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC) will be reviewed at the session of the Holy Synod in Constantinople on September 28, 2009. UNIAN-Religion reported that General Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate Archimandrite Elpidophoros Lambriniadis informed the publication “Kommersant-Ukraina” of this.

After the session of the Holy Synod, a delegation of the Ecumenical Patriarchate will come to Ukraine for further review. “No decision will be made fast or spontaneously. We are planning the visit of the Patriarchate’s delegation to Ukraine for the beginning of October. During the visit there will be a meeting between representatives of the Holy Synod and Metropolitan Mefodiy (head of the UAOC), where the given question will be discussed, after which we will make a definitive decision,” said the archimandrite.

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) skeptically regards the perspective of the UAOC coming under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. “The UAOC has practically no chances – during Patriarch Bartholomew’s visit to Kyiv he clearly made it understood that he will only converse with a canonical Church, thus with us,” the press secretary of the head of t he UOC-MP proto-hierarch Heorhij Kovalenko is quoted by “Kommersant.”

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate (UOC-KP) responds the same way to the letter of Metropolitan Mefodiy. "We really doubt that Patriarch Bartholomew will accept the UAOC under his omophorion, the more so since it is a small Orthodox jurisdiction,” said the head of the informational-publication department of the UOC-KP Bishop Yevstratiy (Zorya). He believes that the UAOC’s appeal to Constantinople was influenced by the head of the Russian Orthodox Church’s visit to Ukraine. “After Kirill’s visit to Ukraine, the UAOC understood that Moscow will not support the creation of a national church in Ukraine, so they again focused their attention on Constantinople,” feels Bishop Yevstratij.

As RISU reported, on August 26, 2009, the Hierarchal Synod of the UAOC sent an appeal to the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew with a request to accept the UAOC into the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate with rights of autonomy.

source

emphasis mine

This is enough for the Patriarch of Moscow to hold a synod, officially declare the UAOC schismatic and force the EP's resignation.

Its been done before:
http://books.google.com/books?id=UPr1ZCxPW6QC&pg=PA310&lpg=PA310&dq=Fortescue+sinai&source=bl&ots=qAa12LfQ2o&sig=NWdWKsQRT4EL5vXSBo2sIfOF_dc&hl=en&ei=WXSeSu2DDpLoMYuPvIgC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

As EP Sophronios III found out, such uncanonical actions can cost you.
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« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2009, 03:57:07 PM »

Totally unconnected to any present reality. The EP's done nothing and yet the EP's enemies have convicted him. Sick, sick, sick.
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« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2009, 04:41:16 PM »

Totally unconnected to any present reality. The EP's done nothing and yet the EP's enemies have convicted him. Sick, sick, sick.

He should have said, as the canons require, a flat out no, and he should NOT have said that he was sending a delegation which has no right to set foot in Ukraine. Arrogance, pride, ambition.
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« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2009, 04:50:31 PM »


Why don't they have a right?
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« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2009, 05:11:46 PM »


Why don't they have a right?

A bishop cannot act within the diocese of another bishop without permission from the diocesan bishop. This applies even even if you are talking about the presiding hierach and a member bishop, much less when talking about separate autocephalous churches. Since the EP recognizes the bishops of the UOC-MP as the legitimately ordained bishops for the dioceses in that region, he has no business sending emissaries into their territory to discuss anything without their permission. Recieving their representatives in his own diocese and using that as a starting point to try to affect reconciliation with those ruling bishops would be a fully legitimate application of his position as first hierarch, but he has no authority to take action *inside* the Ukraine without the permission of the bishops already in place.
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« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2009, 10:35:11 PM »

This is very disturbuing news. The rift that will result if Constantinople accepts the UAOC is unimaginable, far worse than Estonia.   It's quite alarming enough that Constantinople will even consider the request and endanger the unity of the Orthodox Church.

It was mooted that Moscow accepted the Constantinople headship of all the Regional Episcopal Assemblies in exchange for a deal that Constantinople would leave the Ukrainian problems alone.  This news item is evidence suggesting that there was no such deal.

Of recent times Constantinople has been becoming more vocal in its claim that Chalcedon 28 makes the EP the Patriarch of the Barbarians.   But can the Ukraine with its 1000 years of Christianity be counted as part of the canonical territory of the Patriarch of the Barbarians?
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« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2009, 11:10:09 PM »

This is very disturbuing news. The rift that will result if Constantinople accepts the UAOC is unimaginable, far worse than Estonia.   It's quite alarming enough that Constantinople will even consider the request and endanger the unity of the Orthodox Church.

But are we suprised.


Quote
It was mooted that Moscow accepted the Constantinople headship of all the Regional Episcopal Assemblies in exchange for a deal that Constantinople would leave the Ukrainian problems alone.  This news item is evidence suggesting that there was no such deal.

I, of course, have no inside information.  But my working theory was it was obvious, for various reasons that the Episcopal Assembly wasn't going to get off the ground (the problems already with the chairmanship as envisioned at Chambesy in France, the rumblings in the Antiochian Church in North America with the calls for union with the reinvigorated OCA, whose hiearch, although not invited, has shown himself less of a push over, etc.).  I believe the PoM gambled on the EP falling on his face.  I fear that he has given the EP enough rope, with attendant disaster of the proportion of EP St. Gregory V the Ethnomartyr and EP Meletios IV, the latter reviving the ancient Greek concept of hubris.  The EP I believe thought he could pull a fast one, and is now trying to push the envelop as a followup.

Lord help us!


Quote
Of recent times Constantinople has been becoming more vocal in its claim that Chalcedon 28 makes the EP the Patriarch of the Barbarians.   But can the Ukraine with its 1000 years of Christianity be counted as part of the canonical territory of the Patriarch of the Barbarians?

The EP made the claim that the union of Ukraine to Russia was uncanonical when the Bolsheviks had hamstrung the Russian Church.  The Ukrainians are reviving this claim.  According to the novel Chalcedon 28 claim, that would put Ukraine outside of the canonical territory of the PoM and hence his.  The EP has no problem abolishing Patriarchates, as Serbia and Bulgaria know, or reducing them to his exarchs, as Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem and Cyprus know, or try to prevent them as the CoG, Albania, the Czech and Slovak lands and the OCA know.  The Russian and the Romanians learned: present the EP with a fait accompoli.  The EP would try to do the same.  Poland (and hence Russia) knows the EP will exercise jurisdiction if he can get away with it. Some Ukrainians are trying to do the same.

Btw, the Russians have the blot of the abolishment of the Church of Georgia on its record.  Now Georgia will be on our Episcopal Assembly.  Wonder what they are all going to talk about.
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« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2009, 11:21:58 PM »

Does anyone know approximately how many Orthodox Christians this affects? (are within this jurisdiction)
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« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2009, 11:41:58 PM »

Does anyone know approximately how many Orthodox Christians this affects? (are within this jurisdiction)

Given the size of the powder keg, no matter how small (and it is small), this spark effects us all.
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« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2009, 11:48:33 PM »

Does anyone know approximately how many Orthodox Christians this affects? (are within this jurisdiction)

It has always proven impossible to get statistics of actual membership in any of the Ukrainian Churches.  Instead we can find only such statistics as the number of parishes.

In 1999 the UAOC had 1,020 parishes.

http://www.georgefox.edu/academics/undergrad/departments/soc-swk/ree/Davis_Hard%20Data.pdf

Maybe somebody can locate more recent data?
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« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2009, 12:22:29 AM »

Quote
Such an outward abasement of the hierarch of the city of St. Constantine, which was once the capital of the ecumene, has not caused reverence toward him to be shaken among Orthodox Christians, who revere the See of Sts. Chrysostom and Gregory the Theologian. From the height of this See the successor of Sts. John and Gregory could spiritually guide the whole Orthodox world, if only he possessed their firmness in the defense of righteousness and truth and the breadth of views of the recent Patriarch Joachim III. However, to the general decline of the Ecumenical Patriarchate there has been joined the direction of its activity after the Great War. The Ecumenical Patriarchate has desired to make up for the loss of dioceses which have left its jurisdiction, and likewise the loss of its political significance within the boundaries of Turkey, by submitting to itself areas where up to now there has been no Orthodox hierarchy, and likewise the Churches of those states where the government is not Orthodox. Thus, on April 5, 1922, Patriarch Meletius designated an Exarch of Western and Central Europe with the title of Metropolitan of Thyateira with residency in London; on March 4, 1923, the same Patriarch consecrated the Czech Archimandrite Sabbatius Archbishop of Prague and All Czechoslovakia; on April 15, 1924, a Metropolia of Hungary and All Central Europe was founded with a See in Budapest, even though there was already a Serbian bishop there. In America an Archbishopric was established under the Ecumenical Throne, then in 1924 a Diocese was established in Australia with a See in Sydney. In 1938 India was made subordinate to the Archbishop of Australia.

At the same time there has proceeded the subjection of separate parts of the Russian Orthodox Church which have been torn away from Russia. Thus, on June 9, 1923, the Ecumenical Patriarch accepted into his jurisdiction the Diocese of Finland as an autonomous Finnish Church; on August 23, 1923, the Estonian Church was made subject in the same way, on November 13, 1924, Patriarch Gregory VII recognized the autocephaly of the Polish Church under the supervision of the Ecumenical Patriarchate—that is, rather autonomy. In March, 1936, the Ecumenical Patriarch accepted Latvia into his jurisdiction. Not limiting himself to the acceptance into his jurisdiction of Churches in regions which had fallen away from the borders of Russia, Patriarch Photius accepted into his jurisdiction Metropolitan Eulogius in Western Europe together with the parishes subordinate to him, and on February 28, 1937, an Archbishop of the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarch in America consecrated Bishop Theodore-Bogdan Shpilko for a Ukrainian Church in North America.

Thus, the Ecumenical Patriarch has become actually “ecumenical” [universal] in the breadth of the territory which is theoretically subject to him. Almost the whole earthly globe, apart from the small territories of the three Patriarchates and the territory of Soviet Russia, according to the idea of the Patriarchate’s leaders, enters into the composition of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. Increasing without limit their desires to submit to themselves parts of Russia, the Patriarchs of Constantinople have even begun to declare the uncanonicity of the annexation of Kiev to the Moscow Patriarchate, and to declare that the previously existing southern Russian Metropolia of Kiev should be subject to the Throne of Constantinople. Such a point of view is not only clearly expressed in the Tomos of November 13, 1924, in connection with the separation of the Polish Church, but is also quite thoroughly promoted by the Patriarchs. Thus, the Vicar of Metropolitan Eulogius in Paris, who was consecrated with the permission of the Ecumenical Patriarch, has assumed the title of Chersonese; that is to say, Chersonese, which is now in the territory of Russia, is subject to the Ecumenical Patriarch. The next logical step for the Ecumenical Patriarchate would be to declare the whole of Russia as being under the jurisdiction of Constantinople....

The moral authority of the Patriarchs of Constantinople has likewise fallen very low in view of their extreme instability in ecclesiastical matters. Thus, Patriarch Meletius IV arranged a “Pan-Orthodox Congress,” with representatives of various churches, which decreed the introduction of the New Calendar. This decree, recognized only by a part of the Church, introduced a frightful schism among Orthodox Christians. Patriarch Gregory VII recognized the decree of the council of the Living Church concerning the deposing of Patriarch Tikhon, whom not long before this the Synod of Constantinople had declared a “confessor,” and then he entered into communion with the “Renovationists” in Russia, which continues up to now.

In sum, the Ecumenical Patriarchate, in theory embracing almost the whole universe and in fact extending its authority only over several dioceses, and in other places having only a higher superficial supervision and receiving certain revenues for this, persecuted by the government at home and not supported by any governmental authority abroad: having lost its significance as a pillar of truth and having itself become a source of division, and at the same time being possessed by an exorbitant love of power—represents a pitiful spectacle which recalls the worst periods in the history of the See of Constantinople.
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« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2009, 07:11:46 AM »

Totally unconnected to any present reality. The EP's done nothing and yet the EP's enemies have convicted him. Sick, sick, sick.

He should have said, as the canons require, a flat out no, and he should NOT have said that he was sending a delegation which has no right to set foot in Ukraine. Arrogance, pride, ambition.

On the face of it, I would agree with you. However absent the charge given this delegation (and even YOU don't know what their instructions are) you are just engaging in your normal paranoia, interpolating without sound basis.
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« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2009, 07:26:22 AM »


Why don't they have a right?

A bishop cannot act within the diocese of another bishop without permission from the diocesan bishop. This applies even even if you are talking about the presiding hierach and a member bishop, much less when talking about separate autocephalous churches. Since the EP recognizes the bishops of the UOC-MP as the legitimately ordained bishops for the dioceses in that region, he has no business sending emissaries into their territory to discuss anything without their permission. Recieving their representatives in his own diocese and using that as a starting point to try to affect reconciliation with those ruling bishops would be a fully legitimate application of his position as first hierarch, but he has no authority to take action *inside* the Ukraine without the permission of the bishops already in place.

If this delegation is going to Ukraine, it is likely due to an appeal to the Synod of Constantinople against the PoM (which the Synod has the right to hear according to the canons).  Despite the speculation of others I don't think the EP is going to rule favorably (from the POV of the UAOC) to the appeal.
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« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2009, 07:28:20 AM »

This is very disturbuing news. The rift that will result if Constantinople accepts the UAOC is unimaginable, far worse than Estonia.   It's quite alarming enough that Constantinople will even consider the request and endanger the unity of the Orthodox Church.

But are we suprised.


Quote
It was mooted that Moscow accepted the Constantinople headship of all the Regional Episcopal Assemblies in exchange for a deal that Constantinople would leave the Ukrainian problems alone.  This news item is evidence suggesting that there was no such deal.

I, of course, have no inside information.  But my working theory was it was obvious, for various reasons that the Episcopal Assembly wasn't going to get off the ground (the problems already with the chairmanship as envisioned at Chambesy in France, the rumblings in the Antiochian Church in North America with the calls for union with the reinvigorated OCA, whose hiearch, although not invited, has shown himself less of a push over, etc.).  I believe the PoM gambled on the EP falling on his face.  I fear that he has given the EP enough rope, with attendant disaster of the proportion of EP St. Gregory V the Ethnomartyr and EP Meletios IV, the latter reviving the ancient Greek concept of hubris.  The EP I believe thought he could pull a fast one, and is now trying to push the envelop as a followup.

Lord help us!


Quote
Of recent times Constantinople has been becoming more vocal in its claim that Chalcedon 28 makes the EP the Patriarch of the Barbarians.   But can the Ukraine with its 1000 years of Christianity be counted as part of the canonical territory of the Patriarch of the Barbarians?

The EP made the claim that the union of Ukraine to Russia was uncanonical when the Bolsheviks had hamstrung the Russian Church.  The Ukrainians are reviving this claim.  According to the novel Chalcedon 28 claim, that would put Ukraine outside of the canonical territory of the PoM and hence his.  The EP has no problem abolishing Patriarchates, as Serbia and Bulgaria know, or reducing them to his exarchs, as Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem and Cyprus know, or try to prevent them as the CoG, Albania, the Czech and Slovak lands and the OCA know.  The Russian and the Romanians learned: present the EP with a fait accompoli.  The EP would try to do the same.  Poland (and hence Russia) knows the EP will exercise jurisdiction if he can get away with it. Some Ukrainians are trying to do the same.

Btw, the Russians have the blot of the abolishment of the Church of Georgia on its record.  Now Georgia will be on our Episcopal Assembly.  Wonder what they are all going to talk about.

I like the double-standard you're employing: the claim that Ukraine's re-absorption into the MP was unjust is dubious, but the same exact principle when applied to Serbia as the Empire shrunk and then re-grew is EP Imperialism.
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« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2009, 07:38:11 AM »

[If this delegation is going to Ukraine, it is likely due to an appeal to the Synod of Constantinople against the PoM (which the Synod has the right to hear according to the canons).  Despite the speculation of others I don't think the EP is going to rule favorably (from the POV of the UAOC) to the appeal.

Conceding, in a moment of madness, that Constantinople has authority to adjudicate on matters within the territory of another autocephalous Church, one would have to assume that Constantinople has the obligation to summon the Patriarch of Moscow to testify to the position of the Russian Orthodox Church in this matter.  To hear a case and not hear the defendant would not have even a superficial resemblance of justice nor adherence to canonical order.
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« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2009, 09:08:06 AM »

Totally unconnected to any present reality. The EP's done nothing and yet the EP's enemies have convicted him. Sick, sick, sick.

He should have said, as the canons require, a flat out no, and he should NOT have said that he was sending a delegation which has no right to set foot in Ukraine. Arrogance, pride, ambition.

On the face of it, I would agree with you. However absent the charge given this delegation (and even YOU don't know what their instructions are) you are just engaging in your normal paranoia, interpolating without sound basis.

The mere EXISTENCE of the delegation and the NONEXISTENCE of a flat out denial for want of jurisdiction are enough of a canonical infraction to warrant deposition, as EP Sophronius III found out.  The canons state that a bishop may not as much set foot or otherwise excersise authority in a diocese not his own.


Why don't they have a right?

A bishop cannot act within the diocese of another bishop without permission from the diocesan bishop. This applies even even if you are talking about the presiding hierach and a member bishop, much less when talking about separate autocephalous churches. Since the EP recognizes the bishops of the UOC-MP as the legitimately ordained bishops for the dioceses in that region, he has no business sending emissaries into their territory to discuss anything without their permission. Recieving their representatives in his own diocese and using that as a starting point to try to affect reconciliation with those ruling bishops would be a fully legitimate application of his position as first hierarch, but he has no authority to take action *inside* the Ukraine without the permission of the bishops already in place.

If this delegation is going to Ukraine, it is likely due to an appeal to the Synod of Constantinople against the PoM (which the Synod has the right to hear according to the canons).  Despite the speculation of others I don't think the EP is going to rule favorably (from the POV of the UAOC) to the appeal.

The Ecumenical Throne, according to the canons, is not a court of first instance. In this case, the bishops, being schismatic even by the words of the EP's own  previous statements, lack standing to appeal to the EP, and they having not first sought out their Metropolitan Volodymyr (I have no indiction that they did so) nor their Patriarch Kyril (I have no indication that they did so), the EP lacks standing to even consider it.

Sinai is the most autonomous of all the autonomous Churches, having the right for instance to have metochia, etc. It is subordinate to Jerusalem only in that its archbiship has to be consecrated by the PoJ, and the PoJ is mentioned in the diptychs.  And still, EP Sinai's Archb. Cyril appealing to EP Sophronios III about an internal matter was found by the Orthodox Churches (plural) a canonical infraction warranting deposition.

This is very disturbuing news. The rift that will result if Constantinople accepts the UAOC is unimaginable, far worse than Estonia.   It's quite alarming enough that Constantinople will even consider the request and endanger the unity of the Orthodox Church.

But are we suprised.


Quote
It was mooted that Moscow accepted the Constantinople headship of all the Regional Episcopal Assemblies in exchange for a deal that Constantinople would leave the Ukrainian problems alone.  This news item is evidence suggesting that there was no such deal.

I, of course, have no inside information.  But my working theory was it was obvious, for various reasons that the Episcopal Assembly wasn't going to get off the ground (the problems already with the chairmanship as envisioned at Chambesy in France, the rumblings in the Antiochian Church in North America with the calls for union with the reinvigorated OCA, whose hiearch, although not invited, has shown himself less of a push over, etc.).  I believe the PoM gambled on the EP falling on his face.  I fear that he has given the EP enough rope, with attendant disaster of the proportion of EP St. Gregory V the Ethnomartyr and EP Meletios IV, the latter reviving the ancient Greek concept of hubris.  The EP I believe thought he could pull a fast one, and is now trying to push the envelop as a followup.

Lord help us!


Quote
Of recent times Constantinople has been becoming more vocal in its claim that Chalcedon 28 makes the EP the Patriarch of the Barbarians.   But can the Ukraine with its 1000 years of Christianity be counted as part of the canonical territory of the Patriarch of the Barbarians?

The EP made the claim that the union of Ukraine to Russia was uncanonical when the Bolsheviks had hamstrung the Russian Church.  The Ukrainians are reviving this claim.  According to the novel Chalcedon 28 claim, that would put Ukraine outside of the canonical territory of the PoM and hence his.  The EP has no problem abolishing Patriarchates, as Serbia and Bulgaria know, or reducing them to his exarchs, as Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem and Cyprus know, or try to prevent them as the CoG, Albania, the Czech and Slovak lands and the OCA know.  The Russian and the Romanians learned: present the EP with a fait accompoli.  The EP would try to do the same.  Poland (and hence Russia) knows the EP will exercise jurisdiction if he can get away with it. Some Ukrainians are trying to do the same.

Btw, the Russians have the blot of the abolishment of the Church of Georgia on its record.  Now Georgia will be on our Episcopal Assembly.  Wonder what they are all going to talk about.

I like the double-standard you're employing: the claim that Ukraine's re-absorption into the MP was unjust is dubious, but the same exact principle when applied to Serbia as the Empire shrunk and then re-grew is EP Imperialism.

No double standard: I equally condemn the abolition of the catholicate of Georgia as being of dubious canonicity. Only the retention of the Georgian exarchate as part of the Holy Governing Synod ex officio saves it from being an act worthy of deposition.

I equally condemn the abolition of the EP of Serbia autocephaly, which the Serbia had to maintain in Austro-Hungary and Montengro (i.e. where the EP's Sultan couldn't reach) and reclaimed as the Sultan lost his grip.  Ditto the Bulgarians.

At the time of autocephaly, the Metropolitan St. Jonas residing in Moscow was actually the Metropolitan of Kiev, just as the Patriarch of Antioch resides in Damascus for similar reasons.  Kiev is the Metropolitan of All Ukraine, is it not? The EP tried to set up another metropolitan of Kiev, but at the time of the elevation of Moscow to a Patriarchate, the EP's man Mykhajlo Rohoza was busy submitting to the Vatican, which is how Kiev, Moscow and All Russia became autocephalous in the first place: the apostacy of Constantinople and the deposition of Isodore of Kiev, and the consecration of the rightful candidate St Jonas.

Btw, as has been mentioned, the EP Jeremiah II had thought that he himself would be Patriarch of Moscow when he came there to preside over the synod that elevated Moscow to a patriarchate.  That he didn't get the job doesn't invalidate the PoM.
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« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2009, 09:19:35 AM »

Does anyone know approximately how many Orthodox Christians this affects? (are within this jurisdiction)

It has always proven impossible to get statistics of actual membership in any of the Ukrainian Churches.  Instead we can find only such statistics as the number of parishes.

In 1999 the UAOC had 1,020 parishes.

http://www.georgefox.edu/academics/undergrad/departments/soc-swk/ree/Davis_Hard%20Data.pdf

Maybe somebody can locate more recent data?


Try -

http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/resources/statistics/ukr2009/

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« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2009, 09:50:01 AM »


The mere EXISTENCE of the delegation and the NONEXISTENCE of a flat out denial for want of jurisdiction are enough of a canonical infraction to warrant deposition, as EP Sophronius III found out.  The canons state that a bishop may not as much set foot or otherwise excersise authority in a diocese not his own.

This is absolutrely correct.  No bishop may enter the canonical territory of another bishop without permission of the local ruling bishop.   There are NO exceptions made in the canons for the bishops of the Patriarchate of Constantinople to do so.   Any episcopal acts performed in the diocese of another bishop are, according to the canons, null and void.
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« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2009, 09:57:02 AM »


Thank you, Orthodoc.  Useful to have the most recent statistics.
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« Reply #42 on: September 04, 2009, 02:55:26 AM »


The mere EXISTENCE of the delegation and the NONEXISTENCE of a flat out denial for want of jurisdiction are enough of a canonical infraction to warrant deposition, as EP Sophronius III found out.  The canons state that a bishop may not as much set foot or otherwise excersise authority in a diocese not his own.

This is absolutrely correct.  No bishop may enter the canonical territory of another bishop without permission of the local ruling bishop.   There are NO exceptions made in the canons for the bishops of the Patriarchate of Constantinople to do so.   Any episcopal acts performed in the diocese of another bishop are, according to the canons, null and void.
It would seem both of you EP-bashers, along with your fan club, are engaging in an awful lot of hand-wringing based on self-inflicted preconceptions.
Fact: The EP has repeatedly stated that there is ONE canonical church in Ukraine - the autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the Patriarch of Moscow.
Alleged fact (here): The EP has told this group to come to him when one church exists in Ukraine.
Fair enough. What does this mean? To those of us who know Greek-speak by saying "one church" he is saying 'when you come together under the UOC-MP, come to me and we will attempt to mediate an upgrade from Moscow for the UOC-MP to full autocephalous status'. The reply is worthy of Odysseus  Cheesy
Now to be fair (I know, I know) I can understand the unease some may feel seeing the similarities between the Estonia and Ukraine vis-a-vis previous statuses existing in those countries, even temporarily, early last century. However, IF the EP had such designs in Ukraine, it would have happened already.

As to pulling out the canons, why not explore ROCOR's running amok all over the Balkans across three countries and four canonical churches consecrating altar-to-altar bishops and creating so-called 'resistance synods', while you scandalmongers are rending your garments over things that have NOT happened?
Until, and if, something of substance transpires, you guys can just play by yourselves.
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« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2009, 03:03:29 AM »

It would seem both of you EP-bashers.

I am not an EP basher!   I respect the history of the Church of Constantinople and the preservation of Orthodoxy through centuries of persecution and the myriads of martyrs and Saints which it has produced.

I have problems with the desire of the present Patriarch to make use of Chalcedon 28 to establish himself as Patriarch of the Barbarians.

Now, if you want to peruse some "Ep-bashing" go back to Message 33 and read the assessment of a modern Saint of the Church.
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« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2009, 03:11:14 AM »

Fact: The EP has repeatedly stated that there is ONE canonical church in Ukraine - the autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the Patriarch of Moscow.


Indeed, and we hope that Constantinople will continue to observe canonical order and not engage on activities in the Ukraine in the territory of another autocephalous Church.

Constantinople issued a significant statement in August 2000...

-oOo-

The Holy and Sacred Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople Claims Internet Report Erroneous
Aug 10, 2000

THE CHIEF SECRETARIAT OF THE HOLY AND SACRED SYNOD


Telephone: +90-212-525-5416

Fax: +90-212-534-9037


Announcement


Due to a recent false report published on the Internet stating that the Holy and Sacred Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople allegedly pronounced on July 27, 2000 that the Ukraine is canonically under its jurisdiction; the Holy and Sacred Synod announces that this decision was never made and that this report is completely erroneous. Consequently, the relative publication Ukrainska Slovo (July 27,2000) and Kirill Frolov's article in Pravoslavia, July 27, are based on incorrect information.


The Ecumenical Patriarchate expresses both its sorrow and regret because of the circulation of this inaccurate news, which not only causes division but also conflict between Christians, and they misrepresent and distort the virtuous intentions of those who have sacrificed and labored for the restoration of the unity of Christians, by the removal of all causes that might hinder the attainment of the prayer of our Lord Jesus Christ for those who believe in Him "to be one".


At the Patriarchate, August 8, 2000

From the Office of the Chief Secretary of the Holy and Sacred Synod

http://www.goarch.org/news/goa.news288
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