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Offline Heorhij

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A question regarding sainthood
« on: May 27, 2009, 10:46:32 AM »
Dear folks,

I am writing this after reading (in a Ukrainian online newspaper) a story about the case of an hegumen Parthenios (or, in a Russified version of his name, igumen Parfenij). This man was the Abbot ("nastoyatel'") of an Orthodox monastery in a small village called Kizil-Tashi, in the Crimea, in the mid-19th century. He was murdered under rather mysterious circumstances: the killers tried to stage a robbery, but it turned out that amazingly little was actually stolen from the monastery, while the wounds on the corpse implied that it was a horrific "overkill," so the motives could have been personal rather than merely those of a thief or robber. Soon after the murder, the local police arrested two suspicious Tatar men, who were swiftly tried and executed even though till their last breath they kept saying that they had absolutely nothing to do with the murder. The murdered hegumen was soon declared a saint by the Russian Orthodox Church.

Now, a man called Ibrahim Abdullaev, a journalist affiliated to the Golos Kryma ("The Voice of Crimea") newspaper, published a huge series of documents from archives indicating that the monastery in Kizil-Tashi was actually a secret prison where various priests and deacons who did something that displeased the high hierarchs of the Church were subject to forced labor, humiliation, and plain torture. There are also some indications that the hegumen and a number of monks who were his close aides engaged in sodomy, which was one of the means to humiliate and harass the imprisoned victims.

My question is, actually, this. *IF* the allegations of the Golos Kryma turn out to be true (and I am not saying that they are, but just "if") - will the late hegumen Parthenios be somehow deprived of the sainthood, "demoted" from his status of an Orthodox Saint? Or is it, rather, like, "once a saint, always a saint?" Are there any precedents of "decanonisation" in the Orthodox Church?

Thank you in advance for your informed replies!
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 10:47:00 AM by Heorhij »
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Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2009, 11:08:01 AM »
This is horrendous, IF true. The problem is, that because sainthood is largely due to private devotions, the laity would have to be informed for it to have any affect on his sainthood, AFAIK.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2009, 11:27:37 AM »

I thought that canonization to sainthood had to go through various processes and requirements. 

I heard that the deceased body exudes a sweet aroma, miracles occur, the body remain incorruptible, people see the individual, etc.  I know that these don't ALL have to occur in order for canonization, however, if they do, it might be a good sign that this individual is worthy.

However, again...our canonizing someone isn't the end-all.  People do not pick who becomes a saint.  God does.  So even if he has been "canonized" and yet is unworthy, I don't believe he will be standing before God amidst the true Saints. 

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2009, 11:43:53 AM »
Never heard of de-canonisation in EO Church.

If these accusations were real, nothing would be done. He will remain Saint.
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Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2009, 11:47:55 AM »
Never heard of de-canonisation in EO Church.

If these accusations were real, nothing would be done. He will remain Saint.
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Offline NorthernPines

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2009, 11:49:18 AM »
Good question! I'm also assuming there isn't much of a precedence for un-canonization as it were. We have some saints who did some pretty questionable things (IMO) and many who were nothing more than political heroes (again IMO) and none of them have ever been un-canonized.  So I assume there is no such process. Indeed the Roman method of canonization is far too defined and systematic (again only IMO), but sometimes it would be nice if the EO had something a little more systematic than what we currently have.

With that said, I have no knowledge of this situation reported on, and don't know if it's true or false, but it would be interesting to know if there has ever been an uncanonization in either the EO or OO Churches.

Offline zoarthegleaner

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2009, 03:58:09 PM »
This is horrendous, IF true. The problem is, that because sainthood is largely due to private devotions, the laity would have to be informed for it to have any affect on his sainthood, AFAIK.

The wording in the italicized portion appears clumsy; sainthood is not a result of private devotions, but of revelation.  The Apostle Peter explained that some men's works are visible before they repose and some after.   The Apostle Paul exhorted us emulate those who are approved in the Church (Philippians).

As to the question "IF" and "indications that the hegumen and a number of monks who were his close aides engaged in sodomy" I cannot say, but in that the Theotokos, who is undoubtedly a Saint and who even today is and spoken of with evil, shall we hear her detractors?
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2009, 06:28:44 PM »
This is horrendous, IF true. The problem is, that because sainthood is largely due to private devotions, the laity would have to be informed for it to have any affect on his sainthood, AFAIK.

The wording in the italicized portion appears clumsy; sainthood is not a result of private devotions, but of revelation.  The Apostle Peter explained that some men's works are visible before they repose and some after.   The Apostle Paul exhorted us emulate those who are approved in the Church (Philippians).

As to the question "IF" and "indications that the hegumen and a number of monks who were his close aides engaged in sodomy" I cannot say, but in that the Theotokos, who is undoubtedly a Saint and who even today is and spoken of with evil, shall we hear her detractors?

Zoar, forgive me, but I just fail to understand, just what did you want to say? What in the world does the Theotokos have to do with this?

I asked a very simple question, I believe: if ia person who is canonized by the Orthodox Church later turns out to be an evildoer, is there a procedure for "denanonization," and are there any precedents. That's all, no need for quoting Scripture and making complex theological constructions...
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Offline Cudgel

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2009, 09:11:49 PM »
Heorhij,

I doubt an official procedure exists for this as sainthood is normally conferred after a considerable period of time and during less technological eras it was unlikely that relevant data would emerge overturning previous judgments on the person's status. Hopefully this is happening only .001% of the time so it's probably ad hoc in each instance.

Offline Father H

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2009, 09:48:55 PM »
This is horrendous, IF true. The problem is, that because sainthood is largely due to private devotions, the laity would have to be informed for it to have any affect on his sainthood, AFAIK.

The wording in the italicized portion appears clumsy; sainthood is not a result of private devotions, but of revelation.  The Apostle Peter explained that some men's works are visible before they repose and some after.   The Apostle Paul exhorted us emulate those who are approved in the Church (Philippians).

As to the question "IF" and "indications that the hegumen and a number of monks who were his close aides engaged in sodomy" I cannot say, but in that the Theotokos, who is undoubtedly a Saint and who even today is and spoken of with evil, shall we hear her detractors?

Zoar, forgive me, but I just fail to understand, just what did you want to say? What in the world does the Theotokos have to do with this?

I asked a very simple question, I believe: if ia person who is canonized by the Orthodox Church later turns out to be an evildoer, is there a procedure for "denanonization," and are there any precedents. That's all, no need for quoting Scripture and making complex theological constructions...

Orthodoxy preserves the original meaning of "canonization," i.e. the formation of a canon (i.e. liturgical canon) to be sung for the glorified saint.  After many investigations, they would eventually be entered into the synaxarion of the Church.  Since sainthood is the result of the consensus of the Church, even though a particular synod of Bishops has called for a canon to be developed and sung in the Church, and even given a date in the synaxarion, this does not mean that it could not be removed or ceased.  This is not really decanonizing them, but recognizing that the canon to be sung to them is inappropriate and should cease because the consensus of the Church does not recognize them as a saint even if a local synod did in the past.  Any service books that would contain hymns to the person would be removed in future printings, and the name would be removed from the Synaxarion, a basic list of which is renewed year by year. 
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 09:54:54 PM by FatherHLL »

Offline Heorhij

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2009, 10:19:34 PM »
This is horrendous, IF true. The problem is, that because sainthood is largely due to private devotions, the laity would have to be informed for it to have any affect on his sainthood, AFAIK.

The wording in the italicized portion appears clumsy; sainthood is not a result of private devotions, but of revelation.  The Apostle Peter explained that some men's works are visible before they repose and some after.   The Apostle Paul exhorted us emulate those who are approved in the Church (Philippians).

As to the question "IF" and "indications that the hegumen and a number of monks who were his close aides engaged in sodomy" I cannot say, but in that the Theotokos, who is undoubtedly a Saint and who even today is and spoken of with evil, shall we hear her detractors?

Zoar, forgive me, but I just fail to understand, just what did you want to say? What in the world does the Theotokos have to do with this?

I asked a very simple question, I believe: if ia person who is canonized by the Orthodox Church later turns out to be an evildoer, is there a procedure for "denanonization," and are there any precedents. That's all, no need for quoting Scripture and making complex theological constructions...

Orthodoxy preserves the original meaning of "canonization," i.e. the formation of a canon (i.e. liturgical canon) to be sung for the glorified saint.  After many investigations, they would eventually be entered into the synaxarion of the Church.  Since sainthood is the result of the consensus of the Church, even though a particular synod of Bishops has called for a canon to be developed and sung in the Church, and even given a date in the synaxarion, this does not mean that it could not be removed or ceased.  This is not really decanonizing them, but recognizing that the canon to be sung to them is inappropriate and should cease because the consensus of the Church does not recognize them as a saint even if a local synod did in the past.  Any service books that would contain hymns to the person would be removed in future printings, and the name would be removed from the Synaxarion, a basic list of which is renewed year by year. 

Thatnk you, Father. Finally the first concrete response. So, what were the precedents?
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2009, 10:38:47 PM »
Oh, my.

The closest thing I've ever heard of to a decanonisation was when about 150 years after what was thought to be the discovery of a Christian martyr's bones and a devotional following built up around her, archæologists found out the evidence they thought they had for her said something else so there is no proof the well-known Roman Catholic St Philomena existed. So in 1961 the Roman Church removed her name from the church calendar so she's not commemorated liturgically. (She was never formally canonised.) But because there's no proof she didn't exist, devotion to her is allowed.

Not the same as finding out a known person was a fraud or otherwise unworthy.

I've heard from somewhere that canonisation is fallible but ISTM one accepts on faith that the church's saints are saints. You don't have to like them all or be devoted to them all but acknowledge the church's acknowledgement of their holiness and available intercession.

BTW настоятель (nastoyatel') means rector (permanent pastor) - the English word has the same Latin root as director and means nearly the same thing. (Yes, the Russians use the same word as Anglicans.) Игумен, hegumen, means abbot.
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Offline stashko

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2009, 04:50:40 AM »
Brother this name alone makes me wonder about this Story.... Ibrahim Abdullaev sounds  like a muslim name.....
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Offline serb1389

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2009, 08:12:25 AM »
This is horrendous, IF true. The problem is, that because sainthood is largely due to private devotions, the laity would have to be informed for it to have any affect on his sainthood, AFAIK.

The wording in the italicized portion appears clumsy; sainthood is not a result of private devotions, but of revelation.  The Apostle Peter explained that some men's works are visible before they repose and some after.   The Apostle Paul exhorted us emulate those who are approved in the Church (Philippians).

As to the question "IF" and "indications that the hegumen and a number of monks who were his close aides engaged in sodomy" I cannot say, but in that the Theotokos, who is undoubtedly a Saint and who even today is and spoken of with evil, shall we hear her detractors?

Zoar, forgive me, but I just fail to understand, just what did you want to say? What in the world does the Theotokos have to do with this?

I asked a very simple question, I believe: if ia person who is canonized by the Orthodox Church later turns out to be an evildoer, is there a procedure for "denanonization," and are there any precedents. That's all, no need for quoting Scripture and making complex theological constructions...

Orthodoxy preserves the original meaning of "canonization," i.e. the formation of a canon (i.e. liturgical canon) to be sung for the glorified saint.  After many investigations, they would eventually be entered into the synaxarion of the Church.  Since sainthood is the result of the consensus of the Church, even though a particular synod of Bishops has called for a canon to be developed and sung in the Church, and even given a date in the synaxarion, this does not mean that it could not be removed or ceased.  This is not really decanonizing them, but recognizing that the canon to be sung to them is inappropriate and should cease because the consensus of the Church does not recognize them as a saint even if a local synod did in the past.  Any service books that would contain hymns to the person would be removed in future printings, and the name would be removed from the Synaxarion, a basic list of which is renewed year by year. 

Also, I would think that if new information was found out about a saint, and we found out that there were some unsavory things about their historical past, that does not take away the reasons for ORIGINALLY canonizing them in the first place.  Whatever reason there was for their canonization doesn't just disappear, but rather we add to our understanding of the saint.  In the end, veneration for them could just stop as it did for Sts. Raphael, Irene & Nikolaos of Lesvos.  They had to reappear to people on the Island of Lesvos in 1952 to remind them that they were still around and wanted to be venerated.  Very cool story http://www.proskinitari.com/The_Saints.PDF

Offline Heorhij

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2009, 08:25:21 AM »
Oh, my.

The closest thing I've ever heard of to a decanonisation was when about 150 years after what was thought to be the discovery of a Christian martyr's bones and a devotional following built up around her, archæologists found out the evidence they thought they had for her said something else so there is no proof the well-known Roman Catholic St Philomena existed. So in 1961 the Roman Church removed her name from the church calendar so she's not commemorated liturgically. (She was never formally canonised.) But because there's no proof she didn't exist, devotion to her is allowed.

Not the same as finding out a known person was a fraud or otherwise unworthy.

I've heard from somewhere that canonisation is fallible but ISTM one accepts on faith that the church's saints are saints. You don't have to like them all or be devoted to them all but acknowledge the church's acknowledgement of their holiness and available intercession.

BTW настоятель (nastoyatel') means rector (permanent pastor) - the English word has the same Latin root as director and means nearly the same thing. (Yes, the Russians use the same word as Anglicans.) Игумен, hegumen, means abbot.

Thank you so much, Serge, very informative.
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2009, 08:30:44 AM »
Brother this name alone makes me wonder about this Story.... Ibrahim Abdullaev sounds  like a muslim name.....

Yes, he is Muslim, and so were the two men who were accused in murdering this rector (thanks, Serge!). And yes, of course the possibility that this series of articles in the Golos Kryma newspaper is a revenge. But still, like I said, regardless of how things turn out to be, my original question remains: IF something like this happens, is there a procedure for decanonization and were there precedents? So far, from the most informed answers in this thread, I conclude that there exists a kind of tacit decanonization - removal from the Synaxarion. That's what I was looking for.
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2009, 08:31:19 AM »
This is horrendous, IF true. The problem is, that because sainthood is largely due to private devotions, the laity would have to be informed for it to have any affect on his sainthood, AFAIK.

The wording in the italicized portion appears clumsy; sainthood is not a result of private devotions, but of revelation.  The Apostle Peter explained that some men's works are visible before they repose and some after.   The Apostle Paul exhorted us emulate those who are approved in the Church (Philippians).

As to the question "IF" and "indications that the hegumen and a number of monks who were his close aides engaged in sodomy" I cannot say, but in that the Theotokos, who is undoubtedly a Saint and who even today is and spoken of with evil, shall we hear her detractors?

Zoar, forgive me, but I just fail to understand, just what did you want to say? What in the world does the Theotokos have to do with this?

I asked a very simple question, I believe: if ia person who is canonized by the Orthodox Church later turns out to be an evildoer, is there a procedure for "denanonization," and are there any precedents. That's all, no need for quoting Scripture and making complex theological constructions...

Orthodoxy preserves the original meaning of "canonization," i.e. the formation of a canon (i.e. liturgical canon) to be sung for the glorified saint.  After many investigations, they would eventually be entered into the synaxarion of the Church.  Since sainthood is the result of the consensus of the Church, even though a particular synod of Bishops has called for a canon to be developed and sung in the Church, and even given a date in the synaxarion, this does not mean that it could not be removed or ceased.  This is not really decanonizing them, but recognizing that the canon to be sung to them is inappropriate and should cease because the consensus of the Church does not recognize them as a saint even if a local synod did in the past.  Any service books that would contain hymns to the person would be removed in future printings, and the name would be removed from the Synaxarion, a basic list of which is renewed year by year. 

Also, I would think that if new information was found out about a saint, and we found out that there were some unsavory things about their historical past, that does not take away the reasons for ORIGINALLY canonizing them in the first place.  Whatever reason there was for their canonization doesn't just disappear, but rather we add to our understanding of the saint.  In the end, veneration for them could just stop as it did for Sts. Raphael, Irene & Nikolaos of Lesvos.  They had to reappear to people on the Island of Lesvos in 1952 to remind them that they were still around and wanted to be venerated.  Very cool story http://www.proskinitari.com/The_Saints.PDF

Thank you very much for this story and link! Very interesting.
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2009, 01:01:15 PM »
A related question (sorry if naive): is there ONE "universal" Synaxarion? If it exists, where is it being created, by whom? And is it distributed globally?
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2009, 01:11:14 PM »
Given the radically decentralised nature of Orthodoxy, not congregational but as close to it as an episcopal church can get, probably not! It muddles along nicely with a hotchpotch of national saints' calendars and local feasts.
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Offline serb1389

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2009, 01:17:14 PM »
A related question (sorry if naive): is there ONE "universal" Synaxarion? If it exists, where is it being created, by whom? And is it distributed globally?

Sort of...lol.  It is very interesting to see that in all of the autocephalous church (even in Russia) you will see that ALL of the saints who are in the Greek Synaxarion are commemorated in the synaxaristis of each local church.  I believe this to be true throughout (I'm not 100% sure about Georgia, but I would assume it's the same). 

There are several reasons for this (most of this is my conjecture, but some of it is verified):

*  Christianity came out of Greece and the Greek speaking world.  All of the original saints were part of ONE church, before there were local commemorations and all of the pentarchies split apart etc.

*  Greeks were the ones who brought christianity to all of the other autocephalous churches, and then when Russia brought it to others, they already had the Greek saints in their synaxarion

*  Most small autocephalous churches do not have enough of their own saints to be able to have commemorations each day, so they utilize a calendar from the church that they received christianity from. 

So is there one overall calendar and synaxarion?   No, but all of the saints who were canonized in greece BEFORE each unique autocephalous church, are celebrated in each place.  sorry if that didn't make sense, i'm running on fumes right now...



Offline Father H

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2009, 03:27:16 PM »
A related question (sorry if naive): is there ONE "universal" Synaxarion? If it exists, where is it being created, by whom? And is it distributed globally?

I believe that it is a yearly procedure as follows:  The Patriarchate of Constantinople receives from all autocephalous Churches new Saints that have been canonized in the autocephalous Churches, and yearly adds them to its calendar, then redistributes (I believe year by year) to all the autocephalous Churches a revised synaxarion (listing of saints in calendar).   Now, I am not sure that every local synod of an autocephalous church necessarily reports all of its canonizations yearly to Constantinople, but as many as it does are added in Constantinople, this is the procedure.  This would be the universal synaxarion.  It is less systematized with regard to adding the lives of saints to collections of the lives of the Saints, understandably so. 
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 03:29:15 PM by FatherHLL »

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2009, 03:53:40 PM »
I used to think that each autocephalous Church sends infos about their new Saints to the rest. There are sometimes official reports from my particular Church that eg. it put in their Synaxarion some new Georgian Saints.
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2009, 04:57:39 PM »
^^Father and brothers, thank you for this info, very helpful!
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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2009, 07:14:36 PM »
I also know of a tradition in the Antiochian Archdiocese here in the US where priests who do a dismissal will commemorate ALL of the saints of that day, from ALL traditions.  Now it might have just been the few priests that I know but it seemed to be fairly universal...

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2009, 07:40:39 PM »
A related question (sorry if naive): is there ONE "universal" Synaxarion? If it exists, where is it being created, by whom? And is it distributed globally?

I believe that it is a yearly procedure as follows:  The Patriarchate of Constantinople receives from all autocephalous Churches new Saints that have been canonized in the autocephalous Churches, and yearly adds them to its calendar, then redistributes (I believe year by year) to all the autocephalous Churches a revised synaxarion (listing of saints in calendar).   

Actually Alexandria is the keeper of the list and maintains the calendar for the Orthodox Church. They are responsible for informing all the churches of when Pascha is to fall each year and any questions about the calendar and the celebration of fest are to be directed to the Patriarch of Alexandria. This of course is the tradition because Alexandria was home to the best scientific minds for a good portion of the worlds existence. 

The only list I have seen distributed on a universal level is the Constantinople edition that also has the updated directory of all the Ecumenical Throne bishops. It is several hundred pages thick and in Greek.
Joseph

Offline arimethea

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2009, 07:44:27 PM »
I also know of a tradition in the Antiochian Archdiocese here in the US where priests who do a dismissal will commemorate ALL of the saints of that day, from ALL traditions.  Now it might have just been the few priests that I know but it seemed to be fairly universal...

The official synaxarion for the Archdiocese is found in the back of the Liturgikon by Archimandrite (now Bishop) Basil (Essey). When he was compiling it, he purposely tried to combine the Greek, Antiochian, Romanian, Serbian and Russian synaxarions. Believe it or not is wasn't that difficult since for the most part they are very similar to each other.
Joseph

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2009, 12:13:47 AM »
The official synaxarion for the Archdiocese is found in the back of the Liturgikon by Archimandrite (now Bishop) Basil (Essey). When he was compiling it, he purposely tried to combine the Greek, Antiochian, Romanian, Serbian and Russian synaxarions. Believe it or not is wasn't that difficult since for the most part they are very similar to each other.

Hold on to your liturgical seatbelts!  ;D The Irish Orthodox are about to be included in the official Calendar of the Russian Orthodox Church.

If all of them are approved for veneration (the investigation in Moscow began 2 years ago) this will mean the inclusion of more than 1,200 Saints from the British Isles and Ireland.

See message #3
Russian Church Institutes Feastday of All Saints of Britain and Ireland
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13801.msg192615.html#msg192615
« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 12:15:22 AM by FrChris »

Offline zoarthegleaner

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2009, 01:15:33 PM »


St. Leonty, Patriarch of Jerusalem in the 12 century was strict and physically abusive to his disciples in the monastery.  Once he found his disciple Anthony leaning against a wall and he took his head into his hand and shoved it forcefully back against the wall.
Courteous is my name,
and I have always aimed to live up to it.
Grace is also my name,
but when things go wrong
its Courteous whom I blame;
but its Grace who sees me through it.

Offline serb1389

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2009, 08:33:52 PM »


St. Leonty, Patriarch of Jerusalem in the 12 century was strict and physically abusive to his disciples in the monastery.  Once he found his disciple Anthony leaning against a wall and he took his head into his hand and shoved it forcefully back against the wall.

Do you have a source for this?  Either a book or a link would be great. 

Offline zoarthegleaner

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2009, 05:26:03 PM »
http://orthodoxbookstore.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=2667343

I used the choice of physically abusive only because of our modern sissiness. 
Courteous is my name,
and I have always aimed to live up to it.
Grace is also my name,
but when things go wrong
its Courteous whom I blame;
but its Grace who sees me through it.

Offline serb1389

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Re: A question regarding sainthood
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2009, 08:44:23 PM »
http://orthodoxbookstore.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=2667343

I used the choice of physically abusive only because of our modern sissiness. 

thank you for that.