Author Topic: St. Peter the Aleut  (Read 5429 times)

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Offline antiderivative

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St. Peter the Aleut
« on: February 18, 2009, 12:27:07 AM »
I've read about him before on Wikipedia, but recently the article has changed a bit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_the_Aleut

This is how it opens!!!
Quote
There is some question as to whether he ever existed, or whether the highly questionable account of his "martyrdom" is a fiction created to justify Russian incursions on Spanish colonial territories.

I never knew his existence was questioned, anyone know much about this? The article seems extremely bias nonetheless.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 12:27:24 AM by antiderivative »
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Offline Quinault

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Re: St. Peter the Aleut
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2009, 12:30:34 AM »
You must remember that Wikipedia can be edited by anyone at anytime. So it isn't all that reliable for accuracy.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 12:31:02 AM by Quinault »

Offline antiderivative

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Re: St. Peter the Aleut
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2009, 12:33:51 AM »
But is Wikipedia the only place where his existence is questioned?
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Offline Quinault

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Re: St. Peter the Aleut
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2009, 12:36:23 AM »
I have read Roman Catholic works that question his life. But given how he died I'm not surprised.
http://www.deathtotheworld.com/lot/lives/stpeterthealeut/index.html

I must confess that as an American indian I find his story very moving. And if the child I am carrying is a boy we will likely choose either St. Peter the Aleut or St. Herman as his patron saint.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 12:37:54 AM by Quinault »

Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: St. Peter the Aleut
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2009, 12:39:47 AM »
Certain people question his existance since they try to poke holes using the Jesuit inconsistancy.  Accounts say that the Jesuits were not in the area when St. Peter's martyrdom took place, using that to discredit the event took place at all.  Certain accounts of the martyrdom claim it was Jesuits, while others just mention Roman Catholics with no direct reference to an Order.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 12:41:42 AM by Nebelpfade »
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: St. Peter the Aleut
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2009, 01:08:40 AM »
I at least removed that opening sentence from the article.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: St. Peter the Aleut
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2009, 01:47:36 AM »
I've read about him before on Wikipedia, but recently the article has changed a bit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_the_Aleut

This is how it opens!!!
Quote
There is some question as to whether he ever existed, or whether the highly questionable account of his "martyrdom" is a fiction created to justify Russian incursions on Spanish colonial territories.

I never knew his existence was questioned, anyone know much about this? The article seems extremely bias nonetheless.

Another phrase catches my eye:
Quote
There are, however, numerous accounts of Russians and Aleuts who escaped brutal treatment aboard Russian ships to the relative safety of the Spanish missions, some of whom even accepted baptism,[10] for example, at Mission San Buenaventura. Bancroft also confirms this

Hmmmm.  Could this be a fiction created to justify Spanish blocking of Russian colonial territories?

Btw, the Jesuits were restored in Mexico in 1814, expelled from Russia in 1815. As to the former, it is said the Restored Jesuits tried "to be more Catholic than the Pope," and, in the words of the "Catholic Encyclopedia" tried to repay the Russian hospitality during the suppression by converting the Russians.  Given those circumstances and it seems that the story of St. Peter the Aleut fits the times.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: St. Peter the Aleut
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2009, 02:49:39 AM »
I can understand the desire among many Roman Catholics to cover up this black eye on their historical record.  It certainly doesn't help their side in today's ecumenical dialogues.
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Re: St. Peter the Aleut
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2009, 09:04:04 AM »
You must remember that Wikipedia can be edited by anyone at anytime. So it isn't all that reliable for accuracy. 

Not exactly true - there are people who act as general editors, who can undo any questionable insertions and who will eventually call for sources to be referenced in the articles.  However, Wiki does pride itself on "full disclosure" within the articles (i.e. letting you know if it is a controversial subject), so I am not surprised by the opening line on the article.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: St. Peter the Aleut
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2009, 12:42:06 PM »
You must remember that Wikipedia can be edited by anyone at anytime. So it isn't all that reliable for accuracy. 

Not exactly true - there are people who act as general editors, who can undo any questionable insertions and who will eventually call for sources to be referenced in the articles.  However, Wiki does pride itself on "full disclosure" within the articles (i.e. letting you know if it is a controversial subject), so I am not surprised by the opening line on the article.
Yes, to wikipedia's credit, we do see this at the top of the article:

The neutrality of this article is disputed.
Please see the discussion on the talk page. (December 2008)
Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved.
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Offline antiderivative

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Re: St. Peter the Aleut
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2009, 08:03:18 PM »
I have noticed Wikipedia does become very bias on subjects that aren't very well known. It probably has to do with less editors to check "not-well-known" subjects.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: St. Peter the Aleut
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2009, 08:32:00 PM »
I don't think it's an RC plot to cover up the truth.

I too wonder if he was real. For one thing the story varies whether the perpetrators were Jesuits or Franciscans. Either way I don't believe seminary-trained clergy would have been so stupid as to torture and kill a baptised, chrismated and communed member of another apostolic church.

If he was real then... according to Rome he was right and his torturers wrong.

Which may be one reason why the two small Russian Catholic churches (not actually Russian any more - born RCs who love everything Russian and Orthodox but don't want to break with Rome) in California, which follow the OCA calendar, commemorate him.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: St. Peter the Aleut
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2009, 11:37:36 PM »
I don't think it's an RC plot to cover up the truth.

I too wonder if he was real. For one thing the story varies whether the perpetrators were Jesuits or Franciscans
Since I doubt had a great deal of knowledge to distinguish between the Jesuits (who in fact only out in public in Russia for the generation before 1815) and the Franciscans (who dominated California, hence San Francisco).

Quote
Either way I don't believe seminary-trained clergy would have been so stupid as to torture and kill a baptised, chrismated and communed member of another apostolic church.
Never heard of Josaphat Kuntsevych, the Spanish Inquisition, etc., huh?

Quote
If he was real then... according to Rome he was right and his torturers wrong.

Correction: according to Rome's present line.  1815 is pre-Vatican II.

Quote
Which may be one reason why the two small Russian Catholic churches (not actually Russian any more - born RCs who love everything Russian and Orthodox but don't want to break with Rome) in California, which follow the OCA calendar, commemorate him.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 11:38:01 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline Starlight

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Re: St. Peter the Aleut
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2009, 12:52:38 AM »

Either way I don't believe seminary-trained clergy would have been so stupid as to torture and kill a baptised, chrismated and communed member of another apostolic church.
Never heard of Josaphat Kuntsevych, the Spanish Inquisition, etc., huh?


In my opinion, the history of St. Peter the Aleut is real.

On one hand, while crimes of Josaphat Kuntsevych and the Inquisition were worse then terrible, it was another situation in 1815 in California. Nevertheless, it could be a small group, which committed this terrible crime against St. Peter the Aleut, potentially even without the knowledge of their own bishop. Of course, the majority of the seminary-trained clergy would not even imagene getting invloved in something like this. Not all martyrs were killed by powerful dictatorships. Some suffered from hands of small groups of fanatics or career criminals - St. Protopriest John Karastamatis, St. Anastasia Strogilos, Fr. Alexander Men', Jose Munios, Fr. Ihumen Ilya (Hamaza).

St. Peter the Aleut, please pray to God for us.

Offline antiderivative

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Re: St. Peter the Aleut
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2009, 01:02:39 AM »
Yes, I would imagine it happened without the permission of Catholic bishops, not an event that can speak for the entire Roman Catholic church at that time.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 01:03:09 AM by antiderivative »
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Offline Papist

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Re: St. Peter the Aleut
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2009, 12:14:55 PM »
I can understand the desire among many Roman Catholics to cover up this black eye on their historical record.  It certainly doesn't help their side in today's ecumenical dialogues.
Unless he really existed and was killed recently, I am not sure how it would affect ecumenical dialogue today, unless of course people want to keep bringing up REALLY old wounds like when the latins were massacred in Constantinople.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: St. Peter the Aleut
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2009, 11:39:23 AM »
I had forgotten about this:
Quote
A hundred-pound bell was unearthed in an orange grove near Mission San Fernando Rey de EspaƱa, Southern California, in 1920. It carried the following inscription (translated from Russian): "In the Year 1796, in the month of January, this bell was cast on the Island of Kodiak by the blessing of Archimandrite Joseph, during the sojourn of Alexandr Baranov." It is not known how this Russian Orthodox artifact from Kodiak, Alaska, made its way to a Roman Catholic mission in Southern California, though its existence provides proof of the Russian diaspora on the Pacific Rim and its intertwining with Spanish and Native American cultures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_colonization_of_the_Americas

Seems we don't know as much about California of the time as we think.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 11:39:52 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth