Author Topic: Bettern understanding of inter-Orthodox relations learned on OC.net  (Read 3189 times)

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Offline orthodoxlurker

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I must state I do have better understanding of relations between various jurisdictions of Orthodox Church after having seen the treatmeant received by Irish Hermit,  being a hieromonk of ROCOR originating from Serbian Church, from some members of the flock of EP in charge of these fora.
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Bettern understanding of inter-Orthodox relations learned on OC.net
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2009, 03:15:27 PM »
1) Your concerns regarding moderatorial style have been taken under advisement by the administrators and are being discussed behind the scenes. We have been in fact for several days and you are not the only person that was concerned.

2) I hope you also are equally disturbed by the unproven accusations against the EP that were repeatedly made by members of non EP jurisdictions.*

(* I also find it ironic that I find myself in this position since I am not in communion with said EP! But we cannot have this kind of accusatory attitude floating around a pan-Orthodox forum.)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 03:17:08 PM by Fr. Anastasios »
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Re: Bettern understanding of inter-Orthodox relations learned on OC.net
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2009, 03:20:48 PM »
I must state I do have better understanding of relations between various jurisdictions of Orthodox Church after having seen the treatmeant received by Irish Hermit,  being a hieromonk of ROCOR originating from Serbian Church, from some members of the flock of EP in charge of these fora.

Oh?

First: There aren't too many "of the flock of EP" on these fora, actually.  I'd venture to say, none of us.  No one on this forum lives in the Archdiocese of Constantinople, so we're "of the flock" of different bishops.  And all of us are "of the flock" of Christ our God, first and foremost.

Second: The "treatment" of Irish Hermit has nothing to do with his jurisdiction or background; it rather has to do with statements and positions he and the others engaged in dialogue with him have taken.  Why is it that many "of the flock of the EP" (as you say) have such good relationships with, say, Fr. Anastasios, whose jurisdiction is more conservative than even ROCOR?  It's about language and positions.

Third: You are violating forum rules by complaining about the moderation in such a public way.  I'm not issuing a warning because I want to address this point very specifically:
Any complaints about moderation should be taken up with the moderators in Private Messages, or with their Global Moderators in Private Messages, or with Administrators in Private Messages. We don't do this to quash dissent; far from it.  We do it to handle all concerns in a respectful manner, without smearing or gossiping or anything like that.  So, please, respect the policy and take all your complaints about the moderation to the PM system.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 03:21:36 PM by cleveland »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Bettern understanding of inter-Orthodox relations learned on OC.net
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2009, 03:50:06 PM »
some members of the flock of EP in charge of these fora.

This forum has also warned some members of the EP (i.e. me) for their disrespect of Fr. Ambrose.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19437.msg289476.html#msg289476
No distinction is made simply because I am a Global Moderator. I deserved a warning and was given one.
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Bettern understanding of inter-Orthodox relations learned on OC.net
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2009, 04:19:03 PM »
orthodoxlurker politely requested to reply to my comments to him. Since I made them in public, I will allow him to respond in public and I am unlocking this thread temporarily.
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Offline orthodoxlurker

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Re: Bettern understanding of inter-Orthodox relations learned on OC.net
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2009, 04:29:44 PM »
orthodoxlurker politely requested to reply to my comments to him. Since I made them in public, I will allow him to respond in public and I am unlocking this thread temporarily.

Thank you.

I'll avail myself the opportunity to respond to all three posts above separately, limiting them to my complaints to the estimates of the contents of my post, and not mentioning the treatment of Irish Hermit, as I promissed in PM.

After that, of course, all of you may respond and I will not bother you with additional responses.
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Offline orthodoxlurker

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Re: Bettern understanding of inter-Orthodox relations learned on OC.net
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2009, 04:51:43 PM »
Dear Fr. Anastasios,

1) Your concerns regarding moderatorial style have been taken under advisement by the administrators and are being discussed behind the scenes. We have been in fact for several days and you are not the only person that was concerned.

1) I have not said a word about the moderatorial actions, or the policy of the board. Who pays the piper calls the tune.

I said I learned better understanding of relations between various jurisdictions of Orthodoxy.

It does have nothing with the policy of the board, or the issue if all the forum (unpaid) staff are making good judgments all the time (as if they were infallable).

2) I hope you also are equally disturbed by the unproven accusations against the EP that were repeatedly made by members of non EP jurisdictions.*

2.1) I am not disturbed at all, neither I mentioned the word "disturbed" in my initial post. I hope you see the distinction.

2.2) I haven't read any unproven accusation against EP on these board. Liturgical commemoration was addressed, along with a number of other issues, by both the letter of Monasteries as well as the letter of Koinotes. If there were any proofs against it, the jurisdiction to whom the senders belong, and to whom the letters were addressed, should have responded and publicly refuted the accusations in canonical manner long ago.

Therefore, I can't see the merit in your claim about "unproved accusation" in the case that initiated my initial post (the case I promissed not to mention), and find this part of your response as non-issue.

2.3) I would kindly ask you to restrict your hopes regarding my insignificant persona related to Faith issues. As you know, we are not in communion. As a layman, I follow the shepherds I know and flee from others.

I hope you will not misunderstand the due respect I attribute to you, since i was learn to attribute it to everyone by my family during the growing-up.

(* I also find it ironic that I find myself in this position since I am not in communion with said EP! But we cannot have this kind of accusatory attitude floating around a pan-Orthodox forum.)

3) I can't see how is that connected. The fact that you are not in communion with EP, or anyone else, but are making yourself a defendant of his doesn't add weight against facts in any of your defenses.

That particular argument of yours is simply hollow.

Thank you again for allowing me to respond.
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Offline orthodoxlurker

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Re: Bettern understanding of inter-Orthodox relations learned on OC.net
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2009, 05:18:07 PM »
I must state I do have better understanding of relations between various jurisdictions of Orthodox Church after having seen the treatmeant received by Irish Hermit,  being a hieromonk of ROCOR originating from Serbian Church, from some members of the flock of EP in charge of these fora.

Oh?


Eh?


First: There aren't too many "of the flock of EP" on these fora, actually.


I did mention "some" didn't I? I thought it was explicit enough.

I'd venture to say, none of us.  No one on this forum lives in the Archdiocese of Constantinople, so we're "of the flock" of different bishops.  And all of us are "of the flock" of Christ our God, first and foremost.

I did also mention the word "various jurisdiction" didn't I?

Second: The "treatment" of Irish Hermit has nothing to do with his jurisdiction or background; it rather has to do with statements and positions he and the others engaged in dialogue with him have taken.

Partly right.

Yet, the statements and positions he has taken are not different from the statements and positions from, say, Athonites, yet I haven't heard anyone address any of them in the manner Fr. Ambrose has been addressed here.

The only difference between Fr. Ambrose and Athonites I see is the jurisdiction.

Therefore, either your reasoning is false, or I miss to see another difference.

Why is it that many "of the flock of the EP" (as you say) have such good relationships with, say, Fr. Anastasios, whose jurisdiction is more conservative than even ROCOR?  It's about language and positions.

1) I challenge your estimate of "conservative".

2) I challenge "jurisdiction of Fr Anastasios" being "more conservative than even ROCOR".

3) Are you making Fr. Anastasios and his jurisdiction a card blanche excuse answer, like in a quiz? Are you trying to make Fr. Anastasios and his jurisdiction a criteria, a yardstick, in Faith issues?

Don't you think some of us might get insulted by it, since, say, we might think such an "argument" can be used only to prove something to idiots, so we may assume you think we are idiots?

Or should I bring donatists issue in debating about jurisdiction of Fr. Anastasios?

Third: You are violating forum rules by complaining about the moderation in such a public way.  I'm not issuing a warning because I want to address this point very specifically:
Any complaints about moderation should be taken up with the moderators in Private Messages, or with their Global Moderators in Private Messages, or with Administrators in Private Messages. We don't do this to quash dissent; far from it.  We do it to handle all concerns in a respectful manner, without smearing or gossiping or anything like that.  So, please, respect the policy and take all your complaints about the moderation to the PM system.

As I already pointed in my response to Fr. Anastasios, I haven't mentioned medoraton at all. I learned better understanding about relations between various jurisdictions in Orthodoxy. I haven't read any response in merit regarding that claim.

To be more blunt than I usually am:

Note the difference between my response to Fr. Anastasios, a priest of a group with whom I am not in communion, and the responses from two users "in charge" to Fr. Ambrose, with whom they are in communion. The manner they addressed him is simply unknown to me.

I imagine even babushkas show more respect to mantia, even during making them Roman saints.

All the debate about moderation is step-sidding the point I made.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 05:21:31 PM by orthodoxlurker »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Bettern understanding of inter-Orthodox relations learned on OC.net
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2009, 05:24:21 PM »
All the debate about moderation is step-sidding the point I made.
You didn't make a point.
You simply said you understood relations between jurisdictions on OCnet.
If that's your point, then fine.
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Offline orthodoxlurker

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Re: Bettern understanding of inter-Orthodox relations learned on OC.net
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2009, 05:28:09 PM »
some members of the flock of EP in charge of these fora.

This forum has also warned some members of the EP (i.e. me) for their disrespect of Fr. Ambrose.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19437.msg289476.html#msg289476
No distinction is made simply because I am a Global Moderator.

All of you tried to connect it to moderatorial issues, although I haven't mentioned it.

It's the attitude, behaviour, not the board policy.

I have neither mentioned the fact that after one user (who is "in charge") ended the debate with both Fr. Ambrose and him being warned, and than another one (incindently also "in charge") brought up insulting false accusations about something happened on another thread, nor I connected it to the board policy, or the attitude of the board staff.

I deserved a warning and was given one.


Pity the warning on board can't make it up what was missed to learn in your home during growing up.
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Offline orthodoxlurker

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Re: Bettern understanding of inter-Orthodox relations learned on OC.net
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2009, 05:30:54 PM »
...

After that, of course, all of you may respond and I will not bother you with additional responses.

I'll stick with my promise, no further responses form me. I've said what I had, so let anyone pass his own conclusion based on my posts and present and future responses.

Thanks again for allowing me to respond.
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Offline John of the North

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Re: Bettern understanding of inter-Orthodox relations learned on OC.net
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2009, 05:31:43 PM »
some members of the flock of EP in charge of these fora.

This forum has also warned some members of the EP (i.e. me) for their disrespect of Fr. Ambrose.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19437.msg289476.html#msg289476
No distinction is made simply because I am a Global Moderator.

All of you tried to connect it to moderatorial issues, although I haven't mentioned it.

It's the attitude, behaviour, not the board policy.

I have neither mentioned the fact that after one user (who is "in charge") ended the debate with both Fr. Ambrose and him being warned, and than another one (incindently also "in charge") brought up insulting false accusations about something happened on another thread, nor I connected it to the board policy, or the attitude of the board staff.

I deserved a warning and was given one.


Pity the warning on board can't make it up what was missed to learn in your home during growing up.

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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Bettern understanding of inter-Orthodox relations learned on OC.net
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2009, 05:35:18 PM »
It's the attitude, behaviour, not the board policy.
What "attitude, behaviour"? You still haven't clarified.
Perhaps if you just explain what your point is we could understand what you are saying.
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Re: Bettern understanding of inter-Orthodox relations learned on OC.net
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2009, 05:35:49 PM »
Dear Fr. Anastasios,

1) Your concerns regarding moderatorial style have been taken under advisement by the administrators and are being discussed behind the scenes. We have been in fact for several days and you are not the only person that was concerned.

1) I have not said a word about the moderatorial actions, or the policy of the board. Who pays the piper calls the tune.

I said I learned better understanding of relations between various jurisdictions of Orthodoxy.

It does have nothing with the policy of the board, or the issue if all the forum (unpaid) staff are making good judgments all the time (as if they were infallable).

You also stated, from some members of the flock of EP in charge of these fora.   It was because of this nebulous statement that I understood you to be complaining about ozgeorge's moderation style as others did.






Quote

2.1) I am not disturbed at all, neither I mentioned the word "disturbed" in my initial post. I hope you see the distinction.

I believe you are mincing words now.

Quote
2.2) I haven't read any unproven accusation against EP on these board. Liturgical commemoration was addressed, along with a number of other issues, by both the letter of Monasteries as well as the letter of Koinotes. If there were any proofs against it, the jurisdiction to whom the senders belong, and to whom the letters were addressed, should have responded and publicly refuted the accusations in canonical manner long ago.

Therefore, I can't see the merit in your claim about "unproved accusation" in the case that initiated my initial post (the case I promissed not to mention), and find this part of your response as non-issue.

Irish Hermit made an unfounded accusation against the EP which was documented. The letter from Mt Athos did not prove the accusation. A link to a video was forwarded along which did not prove the accusation and in fact did not even work.
Quote
2.3) I would kindly ask you to restrict your hopes regarding my insignificant persona related to Faith issues. As you know, we are not in communion. As a layman, I follow the shepherds I know and flee from others.

I hope you will not misunderstand the due respect I attribute to you, since i was learn to attribute it to everyone by my family during the growing-up.

This paragraph makes little sense to me. I express a hope that you play fair, and you tell me not to express this hope because I am not a priest in communion with your Church. But you still respect me, you assure me...



Quote
3) I can't see how is that connected. The fact that you are not in communion with EP, or anyone else, but are making yourself a defendant of his doesn't add weight against facts in any of your defenses.

That particular argument of yours is simply hollow.

I'm not making an argument at all there. Just expressing something I find ironic. It was a parenthetical statement.

Quote
Thank you again for allowing me to respond.

You're welcome.
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Bettern understanding of inter-Orthodox relations learned on OC.net
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2009, 05:41:45 PM »
Quote from: orthodoxlurker link=topic=19628.msg290890#msg290890
1) I challenge your estimate of "conservative".

2) I challenge "jurisdiction of Fr Anastasios" being "more conservative than even ROCOR".

3) Are you making Fr. Anastasios and his jurisdiction a card blanche excuse answer, like in a quiz? Are you trying to make Fr. Anastasios and his jurisdiction a criteria, a yardstick, in Faith issues?

Don't you think some of us might get insulted by it, since, say, we might think such an "argument" can be used only to prove something to idiots, so we may assume you think we are idiots?

Or should I bring donatists issue in debating about jurisdiction of Fr. Anastasios?

As I already pointed in my response to Fr. Anastasios, I haven't mentioned medoraton at all. I learned better understanding about relations between various jurisdictions in Orthodoxy. I haven't read any response in merit regarding that claim.

To be more blunt than I usually am:

Note the difference between my response to Fr. Anastasios, a priest of a group with whom I am not in communion, and the responses from two users "in charge" to Fr. Ambrose, with whom they are in communion. The manner they addressed him is simply unknown to me.

I imagine even babushkas show more respect to mantia, even during making them Roman saints.

All the debate about moderation is step-sidding the point I made.

1) I am not really concerned with what you think about my jurisdiction.

2) If you are going to be opposed to my jurisdiction, though, at least be opposed for a legitimate reason (hint: the Old Calendar movement has nothing to do with Donatism)

3) Your starting a whole open-ended thread about learning more about jurisdictional relations and mentioning moderators while claiming it has nothing to do with moderation of the forum was a method prone to misunderstanding.

4) You are directing this back to the treatment of Fr Ambrose.

5) Your comment about people making bad arguments because they think you are an idiot is neither here nor there and not worthy of response. What could be gained from discussing what you think other people think about you?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 05:43:17 PM by Fr. Anastasios »
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Re: Bettern understanding of inter-Orthodox relations learned on OC.net
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2009, 05:59:00 PM »
First: There aren't too many "of the flock of EP" on these fora, actually.

I did mention "some" didn't I? I thought it was explicit enough.

In the English language, "some members of the flock of EP in charge of these fora" means either "a few members in charge of these fora from the larger group of members in charge of these fora who are under the EP" or "a few people from the flock of EP who are members in charge of these fora." My statement negated both, stating that there aren't many (if any) members of the EP's jurisdiction on the site, and none are moderators.

I'd venture to say, none of us.  No one on this forum lives in the Archdiocese of Constantinople, so we're "of the flock" of different bishops.  And all of us are "of the flock" of Christ our God, first and foremost.

I did also mention the word "various jurisdiction" didn't I?

You did, but in a different context, not related to "some members of the flock of EP in charge of these fora," which is what my comment addressed.

Second: The "treatment" of Irish Hermit has nothing to do with his jurisdiction or background; it rather has to do with statements and positions he and the others engaged in dialogue with him have taken.

Partly right.

Yet, the statements and positions he has taken are not different from the statements and positions from, say, Athonites, yet I haven't heard anyone address any of them in the manner Fr. Ambrose has been addressed here.

The only difference between Fr. Ambrose and Athonites I see is the jurisdiction.

Therefore, either your reasoning is false, or I miss to see another difference.

While your point would be applicable if "Athonites" were also posting on the site and engaged in the debate, they are not, so you still don't have a point of comparison.  But, on point, someone has been warned for his treatment of Fr. Ambrose, so the "treatment" has not gone unnoticed.

Why is it that many "of the flock of the EP" (as you say) have such good relationships with, say, Fr. Anastasios, whose jurisdiction is more conservative than even ROCOR?  It's about language and positions.

1) I challenge your estimate of "conservative".

2) I challenge "jurisdiction of Fr Anastasios" being "more conservative than even ROCOR".

3) Are you making Fr. Anastasios and his jurisdiction a card blanche excuse answer, like in a quiz? Are you trying to make Fr. Anastasios and his jurisdiction a criteria, a yardstick, in Faith issues?

Don't you think some of us might get insulted by it, since, say, we might think such an "argument" can be used only to prove something to idiots, so we may assume you think we are idiots?

Or should I bring donatists issue in debating about jurisdiction of Fr. Anastasios?

Instead of breaking up the questions, I'll just leave them lumped and number my answers:

1) Well, there are hundreds of pieces that go into determing what/who is "conservative" or not, isn't there?

2) On what grounds?

3) No, I brought it up once, as an example.  That's what people do in a reasonable discussion - bring up examples.  If you wish to blow it up to something more, be my guest, but it will only hurt your position.  I've never assumed you or anyone else here at OC.net to be an idiot; if you wish to assume such of me, be my guest, but it will only hurt your position.  I can't imagine how the donatists will help you in debating about the GOC, but go ahead, if you wish.

Third: You are violating forum rules by complaining about the moderation in such a public way.  I'm not issuing a warning because I want to address this point very specifically:
Any complaints about moderation should be taken up with the moderators in Private Messages, or with their Global Moderators in Private Messages, or with Administrators in Private Messages. We don't do this to quash dissent; far from it.  We do it to handle all concerns in a respectful manner, without smearing or gossiping or anything like that.  So, please, respect the policy and take all your complaints about the moderation to the PM system.

As I already pointed in my response to Fr. Anastasios, I haven't mentioned medoraton at all. I learned better understanding about relations between various jurisdictions in Orthodoxy. I haven't read any response in merit regarding that claim.

To be more blunt than I usually am:

Note the difference between my response to Fr. Anastasios, a priest of a group with whom I am not in communion, and the responses from two users "in charge" to Fr. Ambrose, with whom they are in communion. The manner they addressed him is simply unknown to me.

I imagine even babushkas show more respect to mantia, even during making them Roman saints.

All the debate about moderation is step-sidding the point I made.

You did mention the moderation, when you said, (emphasis mine) "the treatmeant received by Irish Hermit,  being a hieromonk of ROCOR originating from Serbian Church, from some members of the flock of EP in charge of these fora."
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Re: Bettern understanding of inter-Orthodox relations learned on OC.net
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2009, 12:18:39 PM »
Dear Fr. Anastasios,

1) Your concerns regarding moderatorial style have been taken under advisement by the administrators and are being discussed behind the scenes. We have been in fact for several days and you are not the only person that was concerned.

1) I have not said a word about the moderatorial actions, or the policy of the board. Who pays the piper calls the tune.

I said I learned better understanding of relations between various jurisdictions of Orthodoxy.

It does have nothing with the policy of the board, or the issue if all the forum (unpaid) staff are making good judgments all the time (as if they were infallable).

2) I hope you also are equally disturbed by the unproven accusations against the EP that were repeatedly made by members of non EP jurisdictions.*

2.1) I am not disturbed at all, neither I mentioned the word "disturbed" in my initial post. I hope you see the distinction.

2.2) I haven't read any unproven accusation against EP on these board. Liturgical commemoration was addressed, along with a number of other issues, by both the letter of Monasteries as well as the letter of Koinotes. If there were any proofs against it, the jurisdiction to whom the senders belong, and to whom the letters were addressed, should have responded and publicly refuted the accusations in canonical manner long ago.

Therefore, I can't see the merit in your claim about "unproved accusation" in the case that initiated my initial post (the case I promissed not to mention), and find this part of your response as non-issue.

2.3) I would kindly ask you to restrict your hopes regarding my insignificant persona related to Faith issues. As you know, we are not in communion. As a layman, I follow the shepherds I know and flee from others.

I hope you will not misunderstand the due respect I attribute to you, since i was learn to attribute it to everyone by my family during the growing-up.

(* I also find it ironic that I find myself in this position since I am not in communion with said EP! But we cannot have this kind of accusatory attitude floating around a pan-Orthodox forum.)

3) I can't see how is that connected. The fact that you are not in communion with EP, or anyone else, but are making yourself a defendant of his doesn't add weight against facts in any of your defenses.

That particular argument of yours is simply hollow.

Thank you again for allowing me to respond.



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