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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: OCA
« Reply #315 on: February 05, 2009, 10:24:24 AM »
[Since when did "Primus Inter pares" mean Universal Primacy....?  I don't consider that a correct definition..... ???

Whatever definition is assigned to "primus inter pares" it has no meaning since trhere is no such position in the Church of Christ.

Offline Thomas

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Re: OCA
« Reply #316 on: February 05, 2009, 10:24:41 AM »
^^Exactly.  I just wanted to commend Holy Cross if what cleveland said is right -- namely, that "there is a significant population at HC that became Orthodox as adults (i.e. converted after childhood).  Easily more than 1/3 of each incoming class, if not close to 1/2" -- because that means that the majority are cradle Orthodox who have grown up having been nothing but Orthodox their whole lives and end up caring enough about their faith to pursue a theological education as adults.

If this is what the jurisdiction tied to HCHC is producing, then BRA-VO.  That the vast, vast majority of the OCA seminarians are adult converts from some other Christian confession does not speak well (in general) of the OCA's ability to raise up cradle Orthodox to do so, as well.   :(  I hope I'm not accurate in this conclusion...

It is always advisable to remember that while I may be a convert  and my children who came into the Churxch with me are converts, My eight grandchildren are now cradle orthodox.  Hopefully we will continue to see that trend where American converts with ho homeland but America produce cradle orthodox who also call America (i.e the USA) their homeland. If we are born here we are not "part of the diaspora". The sooner the mother churches come to grips with that the sooner we can have jurisdictional unity here.

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: OCA
« Reply #317 on: February 05, 2009, 10:28:55 AM »
Powers? What "powers" does a Primate of a Synod have in the Orthodox Church? Doesn't he work in concert with his Synod? But isn't he the Primate?
Why do you have such difficulty with the Concilliar Nature of the Church?

The concept of universal primacy expounded by Constantinople via Metropolitan Zizioulas and, thanks mainly to him, given expression in the Ravenna Document will only serve to corrupt the conciliar nature of the Church.  Russia sees this clearly and is prepared to fight it.

I get the feeling that we are talking on two different planes, though.   :(

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: OCA
« Reply #318 on: February 05, 2009, 10:30:18 AM »
Sadly, I see now what you mean by "power".

What "powers" does Constantinople enjoy by virtue of being "primus inter pares"?

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: OCA
« Reply #319 on: February 05, 2009, 10:32:42 AM »
Sadly, I see now what you mean by "power".
 

There is always a balance of power at these meetings on the International Theological Commission.   The Roman Catholic delegates match the number of Orthodox delegates.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: OCA
« Reply #320 on: February 05, 2009, 10:32:59 AM »
It is always advisable to remember that while I may be a convert  and my children who came into the Churxch with me are converts, My eight grandchildren are now cradle orthodox.  Hopefully we will continue to see that trend where American converts with ho homeland but America produce cradle orthodox who also call America (i.e the USA) their homeland. If we are born here we are not "part of the diaspora". The sooner the mother churches come to grips with that the sooner we can have jurisdictional unity here.

Thomas

Thomas,
One of the points of the upcoming Great Synod being planned is that there is no such a thing as a "Diaspora" in the Orthodox Church. His All Holiness makes this clear in 1990 at one of the first meetings of the Preparatory Inter-Orthodox Committee for the Holy and Great Synod which he presided over.

Quote
"....Despite this, and after the decision of the Synod in Constantinople, phyletism, in the sense of unrestrained nationalism, unfortunately continued to influence the thoughts and actions of some local Orthodox Churches in this direction, at least as regards certain questions, to the detriment of Church unity. This is clear in the so-called Orthodox Diaspora, where canonical disorder prevails and where the nationalist element is powerful.

              Orthodox faithful, members at first of different local Ghurches and states, have emigrated to new countries, settled and live there. They no longer belong, in Church terms, to the ecclesiastical provinces from which they came, because, as residents now of these new countries, they belong to the new ecclesiastical province in which they have settled and in which they experience their eucharistic and sacramental and spiritual life. They are thus members of the local Church under its bishop. This was always the canonical way of ordering things, it was the practice and tradition of the Church and has continued to this day in regions other than the new countries mentioned earlier. In Egypt, for example, in Libya, Pentapolis and the other territories of Africa, which are subject to the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Alexandria,.new churches are being established by missionaries or emigrants. These new communities are independent of the national provenance of the missionaries or of the emigrants or of the original autocephalous Church from which they came. The missionaries and emigrants, living and working in the region proper to the Patriarch of Alexandria, and with his canonical permission, are automatically placed under his jurisdiction. The same is true in Antioch, in Jerusalem and so on. This ought also to be the case in the new ecclesiastical provinces of America, Australia and so on, though it is not so because here the criteria of ethnophylestism prevail to this day."
Source
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: OCA
« Reply #321 on: February 05, 2009, 10:42:06 AM »
Sadly, I see now what you mean by "power".

What "powers" does Constantinople enjoy by virtue of being "primus inter pares"?

What "powers" did Peter enjoy?
I believe Our Lord said to him: "Feed my sheep",
not "feed on my sheep",
nor "divide my flock and set my sheep against one another",
nor "spread unfounded rumours to frighten My sheep",
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Offline Orthodoc

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Re: OCA
« Reply #322 on: February 05, 2009, 10:43:51 AM »
[Since when did "Primus Inter pares" mean Universal Primacy....?  I don't consider that a correct definition..... ???

Whatever definition is assigned to "primus inter pares" it has no meaning since trhere is no such position in the Church of Christ.

exactly!  It cause a major schism in the beginng of the second millenium and may very well do so in the beginning of the third millenium if things don't change regarding the actions of the current EP.

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: OCA
« Reply #323 on: February 05, 2009, 10:55:28 AM »
One of the points of the upcoming Great Synod being planned is that there is no such a thing as a "Diaspora" in the Orthodox Church. His All Holiness makes this clear in 1990 at one of the first meetings of the Preparatory Inter-Orthodox Committee for the Holy and Great Synod which he presided over.

Quote
"....Despite this, and after the decision of the Synod in Constantinople, phyletism, in the sense of unrestrained nationalism, unfortunately continued to influence the thoughts and actions of some local Orthodox Churches in this direction, at least as regards certain questions, to the detriment of Church unity. This is clear in the so-called Orthodox Diaspora, where canonical disorder prevails and where the nationalist element is powerful.

              Orthodox faithful, members at first of different local Ghurches and states, have emigrated to new countries, settled and live there. They no longer belong, in Church terms, to the ecclesiastical provinces from which they came, because, as residents now of these new countries, they belong to the new ecclesiastical province in which they have settled and in which they experience their eucharistic and sacramental and spiritual life. They are thus members of the local Church under its bishop. This was always the canonical way of ordering things, it was the practice and tradition of the Church and has continued to this day in regions other than the new countries mentioned earlier. In Egypt, for example, in Libya, Pentapolis and the other territories of Africa, which are subject to the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Alexandria,.new churches are being established by missionaries or emigrants. These new communities are independent of the national provenance of the missionaries or of the emigrants or of the original autocephalous Church from which they came. The missionaries and emigrants, living and working in the region proper to the Patriarch of Alexandria, and with his canonical permission, are automatically placed under his jurisdiction. The same is true in Antioch, in Jerusalem and so on. This ought also to be the case in the new ecclesiastical provinces of America, Australia and so on, though it is not so because here the criteria of ethnophylestism prevail to this day."
Source http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=287&tla=en

Dear George,

I have read this document and it only highlights the severe danger which threatens Constantinople if the Church proceeds to the proposed Great and Holy Council.

The document requires the Orthodox world to acquiesce in Constantinople's claimed sole authority over all of Western Europe, the Americas, Australasia and Asia.

The Orthodox Churches will not agree to this.  The result will be a great embarrassment and loss of respect for Constantinople and, if it comes down to some nasty infighting, nasty media publicity and a great set-back to the mission of the Orthodox in establishing Orthodoxy in the Western lands.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 10:58:37 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: OCA
« Reply #324 on: February 05, 2009, 10:56:47 AM »
[What "powers" did Peter enjoy?
What "powers" does Constantinople enjoy by virtue of being "primus inter pares"?


Offline ozgeorge

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Re: OCA
« Reply #325 on: February 05, 2009, 11:07:05 AM »
I have read this document and it only highlights the severe danger which threatens Constantinople if the Church proceeds to the proposed Great and Holy Council.
You think so? I don't

The document requires the Orthodox world to acquiesce in Constantinople's claimed sole authority over all of Western Europe, the Americas, Australasia and Asia.
You think so? I don't.

The Orthodox Churches will not agree to this.  The result will be a great embarrassment and loss of respect for Constantinople and, if it comes down to some nasty infighting, nasty media publicity and a great set-back to the mission of the Orthodox in establishing Orthodoxy in the Western lands.
My! The charism of prophecy and clairvoyance as well...

[What "powers" did Peter enjoy?
What "powers" does Constantinople enjoy by virtue of being "primus inter pares"?
Clearly you're having trouble either reading or retaining things.
I believe Our Lord said to him: "Feed my sheep",
not "feed on my sheep",
nor "divide my flock and set my sheep against one another",
nor "spread unfounded rumours to frighten My sheep",

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: OCA
« Reply #326 on: February 05, 2009, 11:23:02 AM »
IWhat "powers" does Constantinople enjoy by virtue of being "primus inter pares"?
Clearly you're having trouble either reading or retaining things.
I believe Our Lord said to him: "Feed my sheep",
not "feed on my sheep",
nor "divide my flock and set my sheep against one another",
nor "spread unfounded rumours to frighten My sheep",


I read it and frankly did not believe its obvious meaning.  Are you claiming that the Archbishop of Constantinople has some kind of Petrine qualities which distinguish him from other bishops?    :o  :o

Were these bestowed on him (by whom?) in the 4th century after the founding of Constantinople?

Did these powers not exist in the Church during the first 300 years?  Or if they did, who exercised them before the birth of Constantinople?

« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 11:26:12 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: OCA
« Reply #327 on: February 05, 2009, 11:25:52 AM »
I read it and frankly did not believe its obvious meaning.  Are you claiming that the Archbishop of Constantinople has some kind of Petrine qualities which distinguish him from other bishops?    :o  :o
Well, clearly you're not as clairvoyant as I thought.
It was a subtle accusation against you.
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Offline Mickey

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Re: OCA
« Reply #328 on: February 05, 2009, 11:33:34 AM »
Later dude. I'm being paged.
Do you always address clergy of the Holy Orthodox Church as "dude"?
This is disrespectful.  :'(

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: OCA
« Reply #329 on: February 05, 2009, 11:34:53 AM »
Later dude. I'm being paged.
Do you always address clergy of the Holy Orthodox Church as "dude"?
This is disrespectful.  :'(
You obviously havent been paying attention dude:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19559.msg289455.html#msg289455
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: OCA
« Reply #330 on: February 05, 2009, 11:35:28 AM »
Well, clearly you're not as clairvoyant as I thought.
It was a subtle accusation against you.

Oh, I see!

Well, let's look at what you accused me of...

I believe Our Lord said to him: "Feed my sheep",
not "feed on my sheep",


Rumours have reached us in this distant South Pacific nation that this is what American Greeks are alleging against the Patriarch.  I am sure they must be wrong.  A bunch of malcontents.


nor "divide my flock and set my sheep against one another",

Likewise we have heard rumours that this is what the Patriarch has done in Estonia and tried without success to do in the Ukraine.  I am sure these must be false rumours too.

nor "spread unfounded rumours to frighten My sheep",

The document you referenced about Constantinople's claims over the diaspora would probably frighten many of the Western sheep.  



« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 11:38:18 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: OCA
« Reply #331 on: February 05, 2009, 11:36:24 AM »
Later dude. I'm being paged.
Do you always address clergy of the Holy Orthodox Church as "dude"?
This is disrespectful.  :'(

Even for an Aussie!   ;D

Offline Fr. George

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Re: OCA
« Reply #332 on: February 05, 2009, 11:38:32 AM »
When the EP acts as First among equals, then he should do so with the consent of the body of equals, and the body of equals should act with the consent of the First.

As a Russian I am committed to the belief that there is NO Primus inter pares (First among equals.)  Why?  Because the Russian Church does not believe there is a universal primacy.   The notion is outside authentic Orthodox ecclesiology.   There is local primacy and regional primacy - both are well regulated by the canons of several Ecumenical Councils.  But there is no mention of any universal primacy in the canons and no Council held any discussions or offered any teaching on it.  It just does not exist.

On the other hand, those who follow Constantinople seem to be committed to the concept.  This could backfire when unity is achieved with Rome and Rome assumes the position of "First among equals."  Constantinople will then be subordinated to Rome which will extend over Constantinople its universal primacy.

Who is speaking of "Universal Primacy?"  There's no such thing.  Just because there are privileges for the First doesn't mean he has universal Primacy - which is truly a foreign concept.  There is no denying special privilege accorded to Constantinople as First (appeals go to the Constantinopolitan Synod; Presiding over councils and Synods; etc.) by the Ecumenical Councils and Endemousa Synods (which included in their number Patriarchs of Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Archbishops of Cyprus and Athens).

The Orthodox are on very shaky and very dangerous ground when they play with the concept of universal primacy.  This was the theme of the Ravenna discussions and the Ravenna Document.  It will come back to bite the Orthodox in the behind.  Fortunately,  Russia and Serbia have repudiated Ravenna, while the rest of the Churches have refused to ratify it synodically.  They are simply letting it quietly slide into the void.  There is no conciliar acceptance.   Not sure though if Constantinople ratified it?  Can anyone confirm or deny?

I don't think the Synod ratified it, but I can neither confirm nor deny with any evidence.
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Offline Mickey

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Re: OCA
« Reply #333 on: February 05, 2009, 11:41:35 AM »
You obviously havent been paying attention dude:
How very sad and uncharitable.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: OCA
« Reply #334 on: February 05, 2009, 11:44:45 AM »
Rumours have reached us in this distant South Pacific nation that this is what American Greeks are alleging against the Patriarch.  I am sure they must be wrong.  A bunch odf malcontents.
...Or crackpot New Zealanders.


nor "divide my flock and set my sheep against one another",Likewise we have heard rumours that this is what the Patriarch has done in Estonia and tried without success to do in the Ukraine.  I am sure these must be false rumours too.
Yep. False rumours and misrepresentation of facts. Listen dude, you are pitting Russia against Constantinople...on a thread about the OCA. You have a bee in your bonnet about the Oecumenical Patriarchate and you want to derail a thread about the OCA to announce it to the world. You couldn't care less about the Church. You want to tear it apart. You are doing Satan's work.


nor "spread unfounded rumours to frighten My sheep",
The document you referenced about Constantinople's claims over the diaspora would probably to frighten many of the Western sheep.
You mean the one where Constantinople calls for a Great Synod to resolve the jurisdictional problems of the Church and condemns the notions of Churches having Diasporas? Why would you find that frightening?....Oh wait.... "Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia"....now I get it. 




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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: OCA
« Reply #335 on: February 05, 2009, 11:51:51 AM »
Who is speaking of "Universal Primacy?"  There's no such thing.  .

Universal primacy is the whole point of the Ravenna document nurtured and pushed through by Metropolitan Zizioulas of Pergamon.


From the Ravenna Agreed Statement:
 
"42. Conciliarity at the universal level,  exercised in the ecumenical
councils, implies an active role of the bishop of  Rome, as protos of the bishops of
the major sees, in the consensus of the  assembled bishops.

43. ... primacy at the different levels of the life of the  Church, local, regional and
universal...


Concerning primacy at the different  levels, we wish to affirm the following
points:

1. Primacy at all levels is a practice firmly grounded in the canonical 
tradition of the Church.

2. While the fact of primacy at the universal level is accepted by both  East
and West,
there are differences of understanding with regard to the manner 
in which it is to be exercised, and also with regard to its scriptural and 
theological foundations."

------------------------

Let us thank God that the 2007 Ravenna Document has not found acceptance from the Synods of the Orthodox Churches.  Russia and Serbia have rejected it;  the rest have said nothing.    While this must be a great disappoinment to Constantinople and Metropolitan Zizioulas many of us believe that the response of the Orthodox pleroma has been accurate and true.  (Whether Constantinople has accepted it formally, I do not know?  George may be able to tell us?)


Offline Mickey

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Re: OCA
« Reply #336 on: February 05, 2009, 11:52:06 AM »
You couldn't care less about the Church. You want to tear it apart. You are doing Satan's work.

May God forgive you and have mercy on your soul.  :'(

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: OCA
« Reply #337 on: February 05, 2009, 11:54:14 AM »
You couldn't care less about the Church. You want to tear it apart. You are doing Satan's work.

May God forgive you and have mercy on your soul.  :'(

Oh for Pete's sake!
If you've nothing intelligent to contribute, why don't you pray genuinely in secret as Our Lord instructed us instead of using prayer as a guise for something else?
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Offline Mickey

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Re: OCA
« Reply #338 on: February 05, 2009, 11:55:30 AM »
[Let us thank God that the 2007 Ravenna Document has not found acceptance from the Synods of the Orthodox Churches.  Russia and Serbia have rejected it;  the rest have said nothing.

Amen!

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Re: OCA
« Reply #339 on: February 05, 2009, 11:59:14 AM »
If you've nothing intelligent to contribute...

You are fond of throwing many insults.

God is not mocked.

Indeed!

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: OCA
« Reply #340 on: February 05, 2009, 12:00:54 PM »
Listen dude,

You don't seem to have any certain knowledge about my identity so how do you know I am a "dude."

Quote
You have a bee in your bonnet about the Oecumenical Patriarchate and you want to derail a thread about the OCA to announce it to the world. You couldn't care less about the Church. You want to tear it apart. You are doing Satan's work.
 

The word LIGONIER ring any bells and the Great Throne torpedoing moves towards Orthodox unity....   ;)


Quote
You mean the one where Constantinople calls for a Great Synod to resolve the jurisdictional problems of the Church and condemns the notions of Churches having Diasporas?


Oh right!  I forgot!   When it comes to "diasporas" there can be only ONE - that which is ruled from Constantinople.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: OCA
« Reply #341 on: February 05, 2009, 12:04:48 PM »
you want to derail a thread about the OCA

It was not me who took this thread off on another tack.  But you are the Moderator and you can stop futher non-OCA discussion in this thread, or you can split it off into a new thread, or... ?

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: OCA
« Reply #342 on: February 05, 2009, 12:06:40 PM »
(Whether Constantinople has accepted it formally, I do not know?  George may be able to tell us?)
The "Ravenna Document" is the outcome of a Joint Commission- not a Synod of the Orthodox Church.
Why would anyone in their right mind consider it the "teaching" of any Church whether Orthodox or Roman Catholic? (Unless of course they were hell-bent on scare-mongering)

And I have to ask: What has this to do with the OCA which is the subject of this thread?
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: OCA
« Reply #343 on: February 05, 2009, 12:18:48 PM »
You don't seem to have any certain knowledge about my identity so how do you know I am a "dude."
Sorry Ma'am.

The word LIGONIER ring any bells and the Great Throne torpedoing moves towards Orthodox unity.... 
No.


Quote
You mean the one where Constantinople calls for a Great Synod to resolve the jurisdictional problems of the Church and condemns the notions of Churches having Diasporas?

Oh right!  I forgot!   When it comes to "diasporas" there can be only ONE - that which is ruled from Constantinople.
Oh, so now we get to the crux of the matter: phyletism. Well, no, madam. No Orthodox Church has the right to claim a "Diaspora", and anyone who thinks the jurisdictional mess is going to be resolved by "Diasporas" is a fool. Again you are being hysterical. Does the EP have a diaspora in the territories of the Russian Church? What about the territories of the Georgian Church? What about the territories of the Church of Greece? You see madam? It's not about Diasporas, its about juridictional territory. Now whether you think a particular Church has jurisdiction over a particular territory is actually immaterial. If you dispute Constantinople's claims, that's fine- that is why we have Pan-Orthodox Synods. Come and discuss it, perhaps aggreement can be reached. Why avoid a Synod? Why avoid the Concilliar Nature of the Orthodox Church? What are you afraid of? What's the worst that can happen? A "Robber Synod"? The Church has survived plenty of those. But if you are going to refuse to participate in the Sobernnost of the Church- what claim do you have to Orthodoxy?
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: OCA
« Reply #344 on: February 05, 2009, 12:23:12 PM »
The "Ravenna Document" is the outcome of a Joint Commission- not a Synod of the Orthodox Church.....

 (Unless of course they were hell-bent on scare-mongering)

When the Ecumenical Patriarch goes to Rome and he and his deacons participate in the Synaxis of the Roman Mass it is not a Synod in action.  But it is definitely scary!

When the Patriarch commemorates the Pope liturgically in a Liturgy in Constantinople at the place where genuine bishops are commemorated, it is not a Synod in action but it is definitely scary.

Even the staunchest monks of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the fathers of Mount Athos, have found these actions quite scary and written to the Patriarch taking him to task.  Are they just "scare-mongering"?

The same goes for the Ravenna Document - not a synodal action but one fostered by Constantinople and with the hope that it would have been ratified by the Synods of the Orthodox Churches.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: OCA
« Reply #345 on: February 05, 2009, 12:25:31 PM »
[
The word LIGONIER ring any bells and the Great Throne torpedoing moves towards Orthodox unity.... 
No.
Are you too young to remember Ligonier and the crushing of hopes for working towards American unity?

It's bound to be in Orthodoxwiki.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: OCA
« Reply #346 on: February 05, 2009, 12:27:31 PM »
it is not a Synod in action. 
This is the only concrete thing you said in that post. Everything else is plani, prelest, fantasia, speculation, fear.
Perfect love drives out all fear.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: OCA
« Reply #347 on: February 05, 2009, 12:30:31 PM »
It's bound to be in Orthodoxwiki.
Calm down.
Focus.
Deal with what is going on in this thread.
Address what I have said against your claims that "Diasporas" and not Sobernost will solve the jurisdictional mess.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 12:30:47 PM by ozgeorge »
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: OCA
« Reply #348 on: February 05, 2009, 12:33:56 PM »
[Address what I have said against your claims that "Diasporas" and not Sobernost will solve the jurisdictional mess.

Did I claim that "Diasporas" will solve the problems in the West?    I'll have to start reading myself. :laugh:

Offline mike

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Re: OCA
« Reply #349 on: February 05, 2009, 12:35:30 PM »
When the Patriarch commemorates the Pope liturgically in a Liturgy in Constantinople at the place where genuine bishops are commemorated, it is not a Synod in action but it is definitely scary.


WHAT?
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?
"No one is paying attention to your post reports"
Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: OCA
« Reply #350 on: February 05, 2009, 12:39:00 PM »
it is not a Synod in action. 
This is the only concrete thing you said in that post. Everything else is

Participating in the Roman Mass of the Catechumens?

Commemorating the Pope of Rome liturgically in an Orthodox church as if he were an Orthodox hierarch?

Have to agree - that is plani, prelest, fantasia, speculation, fear.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: OCA
« Reply #351 on: February 05, 2009, 12:41:06 PM »
When the Patriarch commemorates the Pope liturgically in a Liturgy in Constantinople at the place where genuine bishops are commemorated, it is not a Synod in action but it is definitely scary.


WHAT?
Don't trouble yourself. This poster has no better argument than spreading lies.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline FrChris

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Re: OCA
« Reply #352 on: February 05, 2009, 12:45:26 PM »
I am locking this thread for future evaluation of its contents.

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