Topic: Diptychs, Diptychs, who is listed in the Diptychs?

[ozgeorge]

Original topic can be found here:  Western-rite Orthodoxy 
-- Friul

Curious then, who's in your dyptichs?

More to the point, which Orthodox Church has the Synod of Milan in its dyptich?

[Suaiden]

More to the point, which Orthodox Church has the Synod of Milan in its dyptich?

I will say this once and then I will begin citing this post. The Orthodox Church is not determined by who is listed on a  diptych. The diptych is a historical proof of who is Orthodox.  However, in times of worldwide heresy and schism, the diptychs become the ancient political weapon of a Paper tiger (the Pope is in Constantinople's diptychs-- hopes aside, is the Pope Orthodox or not?)

[ozgeorge]

the Pope is in Constantinople's diptychs

No he isn't.

[Suaiden]

No he isn't.

Please read my post to ialmisry.  Yes, he is.

[ozgeorge]

Yes, he is.

No he isn't.
Metropolitan Philaret made this accusation against Patriarch Athenagoras in error.
I have attended two Patriarchal Liturgies celebrated by His All-Holiness Bartholomeos, and the Pope of Rome was not commemorated in the Dyptich of either of them.

[Suaiden]

No he isn't.
Metropolitan Philaret made this accusation against Patriarch Athenagoras in error.
I have attended two Patriarchal Liturgies celebrated by His All-Holiness Bartholomeos, and the Pope of Rome was not commemorated in the Dyptich of either of them.

You are the first and only person I have ever heard say he made the accusation in error. Even Bishops of the Greek Archdiocese do not make such a denial.

You attended two Patriarchal liturgies in Constantinople, and the Pope was not commemorated. This is wonderful news! Why don't they just say that publicly-- as they said publicly he was, and that there were documented cases of such as late as 1995-- that the Pope is not commemorated in Constantinople, and stop this nasty schismatic contagion from adding to their numbers?

Note-- you did attend these in Constantinople, correct-- Istanbul, if you'd like....?

[ozgeorge]

Why don't they just say that publicly

They do when they read the Diptych at every Liturgy.

[Suaiden]

They do when they read the Diptych at every Liturgy.

Please answer my question, since if you are to make a liar out of a man, you should do it honestly. Did you attend these Patriarchal celebrations in Constantinople or not-- and when did you do so, if so?

[ozgeorge]

Please answer my question

I will, but you still haven't answered my question nor ialmestry's. Who commemorates the Milan Synod in their Dyptich and who does the Milan Synod commemorate in theirs?

since if you are to make a liar out of a man, you should do it honestly.

No need for the melodrama. I'm not saying you are a liar- just mistaken.

Did you attend these Patriarchal celebrations in Constantinople or not-- and when did you do so, if so?

One in Constantinople (2000) and the other was the Patriarchal Liturgy celebrated by His All-Holiness on his visit to Australia (1996).

Now, would you do us the kindness of answering our questions?

[Suaiden]

No he isn't.
Metropolitan Philaret made this accusation against Patriarch Athenagoras in error.
I have attended two Patriarchal Liturgies celebrated by His All-Holiness Bartholomeos, and the Pope of Rome was not commemorated in the Dyptich of either of them.

I found something, while I was looking for commemorations of the Pope on Google. It's Pope Benedict's observations on his trip to Turkey 1n 2006. Fascinating.

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/102681?&eng=y

Most interesting were the following parts:

"The pope says nothing new about his meeting with the ecumenical patriarch of Constantinople. But it should be noted that an unprecedented action took place between Benedict XVI and Bartholomew on November 30: they exchanged the sign of peace during the divine liturgy. In the past, this gesture between the pope and the patriarch always took place outside of the celebration. "

"In the footsteps of Paul VI, who met with patriarch Athenagoras, and of John Paul II, who was welcomed by the successor of Athenagoras, Dimitrios I, I renewed with His Holiness Bartholomew I this gesture of great symbolic value, in order to confirm our mutual commitment to continuing along the way toward the reestablishment of full communion between Catholics and Orthodox.

In order to ratify this firm intention, I signed a joint declaration with the ecumenical patriarch, marking a further step along this journey. It was particularly significant that this act took place at the end of the solemn liturgy for the feast of St. Andrew, which I attended and which concluded with the twofold blessing imparted by the bishop of Rome and by the patriarch of Constantinople, the successors of the apostles Peter and Andrew respectively. In this way, we demonstrated that always at the basis of every ecumenical effort is prayer and the constant invocation of the Holy Spirit. "

[Suaiden]

I will, but you still haven't answered my question nor ialmestry's. Who commemorates the Milan Synod in their Dyptich and who does the Milan Synod commemorate in theirs?

I see that "it doesn't matter to me" doesn't seem to match up in an answer to you.  I assume they commemorate living Bishops of the Milan Synod, Metropolitan Angelos of Boetia, and based on the commemorations in New Jersey, the hierarchs of the TOC of Greece and the Ukrainian Church who passed on.

No need for the melodrama. I'm not saying you are a liar- just mistaken.

No melodrama. Just fact. We may also both be right, whether you like it or not, since they have commemorated them in the presence of witnesses in other liturgies.

One in Constantinople (2000) and the other was the Patriarchal Liturgy celebrated by His All-Holiness on his visit to Australia (1996).

Now, would you do us the kindness of answering our questions?

I could point out that celebrations for the millenium would be a pretty dumb time to do such commemorations.

My answer is above. You would have to ask the Bishops of the Synod. As for me, I recognize that there are true Orthodox Christians outside my jurisdiction; however, par for the course with TOC jurisdictions, we don't commemorate them.

[ozgeorge]

I see that "it doesn't matter to me" doesn't seem to match up in an answer to you.

Except that it seems to matter to you whom the EP commemorates in its Dyptich.

they have commemorated them in the presence of witnesses in other liturgies.

Such as? Citations? References?
You have yet to present any evidence that the Pope of Rome has been commemorated in the Dyptich of the EP since 1054.

[Suaiden]

Except that it seems to matter to you whom the EP commemorates in its Dyptich.
 Such as? Citations? References?
You have yet to present any evidence that the Pope of Rome has been commemorated in the Dyptich of the EP since 1054.

No, it really doesn't matter to me.  After it was already done I had little interest in what the EP does.

[SolEX01]

I suggest you read the open letters of Metr Philaret of New York, when the ecumenical movement was considerably more open.  However, here are some relevant citations.

Patriarch Athenagoras, addressing himself to Pope Paul VI in his letter for the Feast of the Nativity, in 1968, said: "In this communion (of the love of Christ), celebrating with the company of the most holy and most honorable Metropolitans around me, we will commemorate your precious name in the Diptychs of our heart, O most holy brother Bishop of the Elder Rome, before the holy offering of this precious Body and this precious Blood of the Savior in the Divine Liturgy of our most holy predecessor, the common Father of us all, John Chrysostomos. And we will say on this holy day of the Nativity before the holy Altar, and we say to you: May the Lord God remember thine Episcopacy, always, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages." (P. Gregoriou, Journey to Unity, Vol. II, (Athens: 1978), p. 293; Tomos Agapes, Vatican-Phanar (1958-1970) [in Greek] (Rome and Istanbul: 1971), pp. 528-530, §242.)

Since the "Lifting of the Anathemas", the Pope of Rome has been included among those commemorated by the Patriarch of Constantinople in the Divine Liturgy (in the Diptychs and in the Anaphora [see "Orthodoxos Enemerosis," Vol. XV-XVI. January-June 1995, pp. 42-43, esp. n. 17, p. 43]), a practice which was first made public to the world in Athenagoras' press statements and encyclicals of 1967-1968, and this practice continues at every Liturgy to this day ("Phone Orthodoxon," Vol. VI, No. 2 [1995], p. 18).

I attended a Patriarchal Liturgy in New Jersey back in 2004 and did not recall Pope John Paul II's name being read in the diptychs.  I remember the names for the other 14 autocephalous Hierarchs being read as well as immediate predecessors for the Ecumenical Patriarchate, Jerusalem, Antioch and Moscow (May Their Memories be Eternal).

If the above excerpt is true, then the Great Schism has ended and Orthodox and Catholics have unified on a Hierarchial level and the mission is to sell the unification to the unsuspecting laity.  Not sure what the above has to do with Western-Rite Orthodoxy.   

EDIT - now that I read in an earlier post that Metropolitan Philaret made the accusation to Patriarch Athenagoras in error because Diptychs of the heart (e.g. silent prayer) is different than open Diptychs (out aloud)

[SolEX01]

More to the point, which Orthodox Church has the Synod of Milan in its dyptich?

The answer ought to be obvious - themselves and no one else.

[SolEX01]

P.S. My Archbishop is Archbishop John of New York and New Jersey. Please ask him who is in the diptychs. Thank you.

Have you ever attended a Hierarchial Liturgy presided by your Hierarch Archbishop John?  If so, perhaps Archbishop John mentions one name - Metropolitan Evlogios http://www.orthodoxchristians.eu or the more senior Hierarch, Archbishop Hilarion of Texas or perhaps both.  If Metropolitan Evlogios presides over a Hierarchical Liturgy in Milan, I doubt that he mentions both Archbishops John and Hilarion in his diptychs unless all 3 are somehow canonically equal to each other.

All of the above assumes that the information on http://www.milansynodusa.org remains correct and accurate because every link points to a Flash object.  When changes occur, the Flash object has to be updated.  Another observation is that there's no mention of years in the news articles creating a source of confusion between whether the news article happened recently of 10 years ago.   

EDIT - Added content

[Fr. George]

I suggest you read the open letters of Metr Philaret of New York, when the ecumenical movement was considerably more open.  However, here are some relevant citations.

Patriarch Athenagoras, addressing himself to Pope Paul VI in his letter for the Feast of the Nativity, in 1968, said: "In this communion (of the love of Christ), celebrating with the company of the most holy and most honorable Metropolitans around me, we will commemorate your precious name in the Diptychs of our heart, O most holy brother Bishop of the Elder Rome, before the holy offering of this precious Body and this precious Blood of the Savior in the Divine Liturgy of our most holy predecessor, the common Father of us all, John Chrysostomos. And we will say on this holy day of the Nativity before the holy Altar, and we say to you: May the Lord God remember thine Episcopacy, always, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages." (P. Gregoriou, Journey to Unity, Vol. II, (Athens: 1978), p. 293; Tomos Agapes, Vatican-Phanar (1958-1970) [in Greek] (Rome and Istanbul: 1971), pp. 528-530, §242.)

Since the "Lifting of the Anathemas", the Pope of Rome has been included among those commemorated by the Patriarch of Constantinople in the Divine Liturgy (in the Diptychs and in the Anaphora [see "Orthodoxos Enemerosis," Vol. XV-XVI. January-June 1995, pp. 42-43, esp. n. 17, p. 43]), a practice which was first made public to the world in Athenagoras' press statements and encyclicals of 1967-1968, and this practice continues at every Liturgy to this day ("Phone Orthodoxon," Vol. VI, No. 2 [1995], p. 18). 

I've been to a number of Divine Liturgies with his All Holiness, and have never heard the name of the Roman Pope commemorated in the Diptychs or at the Anaphora at any of them.

[Suaiden]

I've been to a number of Divine Liturgies with his All Holiness, and have never heard the name of the Roman Pope commemorated in the Diptychs or at the Anaphora at any of them.

I once again cite the article and refuse to discuss that further, as it has nothing to do with the topic.

[Suaiden]

Have you ever attended a Hierarchial Liturgy presided by your Hierarch Archbishop John?  If so, perhaps Archbishop John mentions one name - Metropolitan Evlogios http://www.orthodoxchristians.eu or the more senior Hierarch, Archbishop Hilarion of Texas or perhaps both.  If Metropolitan Evlogios presides over a Hierarchical Liturgy in Milan, I doubt that he mentions both Archbishops John and Hilarion in his diptychs unless all 3 are somehow canonically equal to each other.

I was referring to the dead, not the living. I never listened that carefully.  And yes, I have attended his liturgies.

All of the above assumes that the information on http://www.milansynodusa.org remains correct and accurate because every link points to a Flash object.  When changes occur, the Flash object has to be updated.  Another observation is that there's no mention of years in the news articles creating a source of confusion between whether the news article happened recently of 10 years ago.   
EDIT - Added content

I'll pass that on to the webmaster, my loving wife. 

[SolEX01]

I was referring to the dead, not the living. I never listened that carefully.  And yes, I have attended his liturgies.

The Synod only has one deceased Hierarch aka its founder, Metropolitan Gabriel of Portugal.  Perhaps Metropolitan Evlogios mentions his predecessor in the diptychs whose name is the only one mentioned as such.

[Reader KevinAndrew]

I've been to a number of Divine Liturgies with his All Holiness, and have never heard the name of the Roman Pope commemorated in the Diptychs or at the Anaphora at any of them.

I served at the altar at St. Nicholas Cathedral (the OCA's national cathedral) in Washington, DC a few years back when I was in school. Obviously we had frequent hierarchal liturgies. We never had the Pope of Rome's name recited in the Diptychs. Certainly never in any liturgy where Metropolitan PHILIP was presiding in Antiochian hierarchal liturgies.

I don't know where this whole idea started and I have never seen anyone cite where such a thing has occurred. My (possibly incorrect) guess is that someone has confused him/herself and transferred the deletion of the Pope of Rome's inclusion in the anathemas (in the past) to the inclusion of him in Diptychs. The former is true, but that did not give him a free pass to be in the Diptychs.

I just think the whole thing is erroneous, at best.

Christ is Risen!

Reader Kevin

[Suaiden]

I served at the altar at St. Nicholas Cathedral (the OCA's national cathedral) in Washington, DC a few years back when I was in school. Obviously we had frequent hierarchal liturgies. We never had the Pope of Rome's name recited in the Diptychs. Certainly never in any liturgy where Metropolitan PHILIP was presiding in Antiochian hierarchal liturgies.

I don't know where this whole idea started and I have never seen anyone cite where such a thing has occurred. My (possibly incorrect) guess is that someone has confused him/herself and transferred the deletion of the Pope of Rome's inclusion in the anathemas (in the past) to the inclusion of him in Diptychs. The former is true, but that did not give him a free pass to be in the Diptychs.

I just think the whole thing is erroneous, at best.

Christ is Risen!

Reader Kevin

THE PATRIARCHAL CHURCH *IN CONSTANTINOPLE*. Last time on this, people....It's old now.

[Suaiden]

The Synod only has one deceased Hierarch aka its founder, Metropolitan Gabriel of Portugal.  Perhaps Metropolitan Evlogios mentions his predecessor in the diptychs whose name is the only one mentioned as such.

Ask my Bishop....

[SolEX01]

Ask my Bishop....

Why not yourself?  Your answer would enlighten us.   

[SolEX01]

THE PATRIARCHAL CHURCH *IN CONSTANTINOPLE*. Last time on this, people....It's old now.

Let me get this straight.  Every Patriarchal Liturgy in Constantinople mentions Pope Benedict XVI in the diptychs while Patriarchal Liturgies anywhere outside of Istanbul exclude Pope Benedict XVI from the diptychs in the best interests of Orthodoxy?

That would be like referring to my parents only at home and saying that I'm an only child everywhere else.   

Are you suggesting that His All Holiness is afraid to recite Pope Benedict XVI's name in the diptychs anywhere besides the Phanar where there are few if any witnesses to verify such a claim and report it back to the Diasporas all over the world?  I ought to renew my passport, write a letter to the Phanar announcing my intent to visit and visit the Phanar just to observe the truth, which I'm absolutely confident beyond a shadow of a doubt that Pope Benedict is not included in the diptychs.   

Edited to add content and change feeling from "I think" to "I'm absolutely confident."

[Suaiden]

Why not yourself?  Your answer would enlighten us.   

Erm, because I don't keep official diptychs?

[Suaiden]

Are you suggesting that His All Holiness is afraid to recite Pope Benedict XVI's name in the diptychs anywhere besides the Phanar where there are few if any witnesses to verify such a claim and report it back to the Diasporas all over the world?  I ought to renew my passport, write a letter to the Phanar announcing my intent to visit and visit the Phanar just to observe the truth, which I'm absolutely confident beyond a shadow of a doubt that Pope Benedict is not included in the diptychs.   

Edited to add content and change feeling from "I think" to "I'm absolutely confident."

No, I am suggesting he's been commemorated in the Diptychs. Nothing else.

[prodromas]

No, I am suggesting he's been commemorated in the Diptychs. Nothing else.

Where? Where and Where?

[SolEX01]

No, I am suggesting he's been commemorated in the Diptychs. Nothing else.

Tell us how often, when and where: Once?  Twice?  Each of the 3 visits that Popes made to the Phanar? Hundred times? Every Feast Day of Sts. Peter & Paul?, Every day since the anathemas were lifted in 1964?  Every day since 1054 when hundreds of Patriarchs said the Pope's name in the diptychs just because they didn't know any better?

How about May 28, 1453 out of desperation?

The answer, Dear Brother, is 0.

[SolEX01]

Erm, because I don't keep official diptychs?

As a congregant of the Milan Synod and maintainer (with your wife) of various websites, both of you could find the answers pretty quickly.  The "dancing" around the answer would lead one to believe that there are no diptychs.

[Suaiden]

Tell us how often, when and where: Once?  Twice?  Each of the 3 visits that Popes made to the Phanar? Hundred times? Every Feast Day of Sts. Peter & Paul?, Every day since the anathemas were lifted in 1964?  Every day since 1054 when hundreds of Patriarchs said the Pope's name in the diptychs just because they didn't know any better?

How about May 28, 1453 out of desperation?

The answer, Dear Brother, is 0.

Drop the melodrama. It's happening and it's been recorded. By the way, what do you think of Kasper showing up in Russia with Greek Archdiocese Bishops to "smooth it over"?

[Suaiden]

As a congregant of the Milan Synod and maintainer (with your wife) of various websites, both of you could find the answers pretty quickly.  The "dancing" around the answer would lead one to believe that there are no diptychs.

Excuse me? Who are you? Address yourself privately if you wish.

[Αριστοκλής]

Is the issue here the ONE instance when Patriarch Athenagoras included the Pope of Rome in the dyptichs at Constantinople in 1965 after which and for which he was so heavily criticized by everyone in Orthodoxy that it never happened again? If so, old news.
Otherwise, I appreciate a new website for the Milan Synod; I missed the old Odox one which was a great resource for WR liturgies which could be considered Orthodox. Hope to see that project revived.
And personally, I'll be content with whatever liturgy they use once Milan Synod comes into communion with the Orthodox Church, whether they're schismatic, walled-off, vagante, or just "out there somewhere" at this point in time.

[Suaiden]

Is the issue here the ONE instance when Patriarch Athenagoras included the Pope of Rome in the dyptichs at Constantinople in 1965 after which and for which he was so heavily criticized by everyone in Orthodoxy that it never happened again? If so, old news.
Otherwise, I appreciate a new website for the Milan Synod; I missed the old Odox one which was a great resource for WR liturgies which could be considered Orthodox. Hope to see that project revived.
And personally, I'll be content with whatever liturgy they use once Milan Synod comes into communion with the Orthodox Church, whether they're schismatic, walled-off, vagante, or just "out there somewhere" at this point in time.

We have a new website for the St Gregory's Press to purchase the full cycle of Western Rite Services...

[SolEX01]

Is the issue here the ONE instance when Patriarch Athenagoras included the Pope of Rome in the dyptichs at Constantinople in 1965 after which and for which he was so heavily criticized by everyone in Orthodoxy that it never happened again?

Is this documented and is this the one and only one time that such a thing has ever happened since 1054?

The rest of the discussion centers waiting for Sudaien to prove that the Liturgy of St. Tikhon was declared heretical by a Canonical Synod to which we're still waiting....

[prodromas]

Of course there is.  Is he afraid of saying who he is perhaps? I can make that guess without threat of banning, since he is making a number of claims without verification (notably that he was a member of our Church)...


...so, who is he?

He was not making the claim that he was part of your church. He was referring to you as :

As a congregant of the Milan Synod and maintainer (with your wife) of various websites, both of you could find the answers pretty quickly.  The "dancing" around the answer would lead one to believe that there are no diptychs.

About your reluctance to produce the diptychs.

[Suaiden]

About your reluctance to produce the diptychs.

Who on earth keeps their Bishops' diptychs? Is this a new thing? Do they publish diptychs or something so you can order them?

[SolEX01]

Of course there is.  Is he afraid of saying who he is perhaps? I can make that guess without threat of banning, since he is making a number of claims without verification (notably that he was a member of our Church)...

Well, if you can't prove that the Liturgy of St. Tikhon was declared heretical by a Canonical Synod nor prove that diptychs actually exist for your Jurisdiction, why not accuse me of being a former member of the Milan Synod? 

[arimethea]

The only Pope in the diptychs is the one in Alexandria.

[Thomas]

Who on earth keeps their Bishops' diptychs? Is this a new thing? Do they publish diptychs or something so you can order them?

I apologize for posting this while the topic is locked however the  official diptychs utilized by a jurisdiction is actually quite public as it is read at every Divine Litutgy in some form. You can write to the patriarchal offices and they will provide you with their current copy.  Their Archives also note the diptych's as they existed at a particular time. (for example the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Moscow Patriarch have  both in recent years stopped commemorating each other due to jurisdictional issues and then restarted later to commemorate each other when they were resolved). I have seen some diptychs published (the OCA recently put one out on their website) for the entire jurisdiction to see.  However I think it is probably more normal for them to send them out to the Clergy who utilize them in what in American Business would often be called an internal memo as instructions to Synod Bishops, Monastery Abbots, and Priests with directions on how the commemorations are to be read at any particular time.

I am sure that Reader Joseph could get his diptychs for the Holy Milan Synod by asking his Priest or  Bishop for a copy and they would  be happy to provide it. It would take a little while to do so however as they would probably prefer to send it in writing and by mail.

Thomas

[Suaiden]

I am sure that Reader Joseph could get his diptychs for the Holy Milan Synod by asking his Priest or  Bishop for a copy and they would  be happy to provide it. It would take a little while to do so however as they would probably prefer to send it in writing and by mail.
Thomas

Sorry for the misunderstanding earlier. I've heard them read but I didn't pay much attention to see specifically who is mentioned. As we have no Church handy here, and go to the monastery for liturgy on great feasts (we couldn't go today).

I'll try to get a copy of them.

[Fr. George]

THE PATRIARCHAL CHURCH *IN CONSTANTINOPLE*. Last time on this, people....It's old now.

Both I and my fiancee have been to the Patriarchal Cathedral of St George, and neither of us have heard the Pope's name in the diptychs.  Plus, Ozgeorge has already mentioned being there for Liturgy and not hearing it.  Try again.

[Suaiden]

Both I and my fiancee have been to the Patriarchal Cathedral of St George, and neither of us have heard the Pope's name in the diptychs.  Plus, Ozgeorge has already mentioned being there for Liturgy and not hearing it.  Try again.

I've already cited cases where it was done.  This, as far as I am concerned, is a dead issue.  The fact that you haven't heard it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I assume you also never saw a Romanian Orthodox hierarch take communion. But it still happens.

[Fr. George]

The fact that you haven't heard it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

True.

I've already cited cases where it was done.  This, as far as I am concerned, is a dead issue. 

And I (along with others) have questioned the veracity of said report.  As far as I am concerned, yours is not even a dead accusation - it never had life to begin with.

I assume you also never saw a Romanian Orthodox hierarch take communion. But it still happens.

An unfortunate situation that has nothing to do with the question at hand.