Conversions in Philipines
ozgeorge:
Quote from: ialmisry on January 30, 2009, 08:45:59 AM
Yes, I think George and I are in agreement here: the jurisdictional mess is quite public, with quite public positions, in the Philippines, here in the US, and I assume also in Australia.
Indeed. I think filipiniana mistakenly believes that this uncanonical jurisdictional situation is unique to the Philippines. It isn't.
As the Oecumenical Patriarchate states, the preparatory committee of the upcoming Great Synod of the Orthodox Church is already dealing with this problem. As the preparatory committee points out, while on the one hand, the canonical disorder caused by having more than one Bishop for the same geographical area needs to be resolved, this does not require the abandonment of culturally different Churches.
ozgeorge:
Quote from: Islas Filipinas on January 30, 2009, 10:07:49 AM
Thank you and I call al the Administrators here to shutdown this topic as no one really takes seriously of what is happening in the Philippines...
That is a silly reason to close a thread. Just because some people are not listening to the pain this is causing is no reason to close the thread, in fact the opposite is the case.
ialmisry:
Quote from: Islas Filipinas on January 30, 2009, 10:07:49 AM
Oh my goodness... so this is how Orthodoxy works in your country and trying to bring that attitude in the Philippines... what under the table? what negotiations? cordial agreement?
As far as I can recall I never heard nor I saw in any websites or from the mouth of both jurisdictions that there is such an agreement (whether secret or for heaven's sake made it in public)...
I said public.
I didn't say agreement.
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Don't you get it people until now... if there's indeed a good relationship or let us say "good working relationship" between the two because of this agreement or cordial gestures from Antiohian Archdiocese... HEY, COME TO THINK OF THIS AND TRY TO ANSWER THIS IALMISRY....
1. Why did not Met. Paul visited or pay a visit to the EP's parishes or to EP's Cathedral which is just 15 minutes away from the International and domestic airports of Manila?
Would they open the door?
The EP is notorious for not letting the OCA in at anything, while dragging, say, its Estonians along.
I don't know the answer to my first question. I ask it knowing how things are here and elsewhere.
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2. Why there was no any public announcement or news in the Antiochian's website that indeed that the two Patriarchates are in agreement in the Philippines?
Again, you said agreement, not I.
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3. If indeed there is a cordial agreement as what the good Father said and which you agreed, why did His Eminence Metropolitan Paul of Australia, New Zealnd included Philippines in his jurisdictional title when he knows that the Philippines is currently under OMHKSEA?
OMHKSEA?
Which good Father am I agreeing with?
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4. And lastly, as Sohma's confusion and his concerned about the canonicity of his current parishes and communities, WHY none from the Antiochian's part dare to breach this gap?
This gap? As different from the other confusion on the canonical jurisdiction in much of the world?
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You see, and the worst and what makes us feel bad is this, WE ALWAYS SAY AND IT IS A FACT THAT WE ARE ALL UNITED IN ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, MYSTERIES, ET. AL. but it seems that everyone here by justifying the action of Antiochian Archdiocese of Australia completely disregarded the ETHICAL AND MORAL standards of our faith...
Except for a picture, I've gotten few details and a lot of accusations of what is going on.
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As you can see, Filipiniana already provided with you hundreds of Vagantes in the Philippines claiming to be Orthodox and descendants of whose saints of our Church... HOW ARE WE GOING TO RAISE THE BANNER OF CHRIST, OF OUR LORD AND HIS CHURCH IF THE OTHER PARISHES OR JUST ONE CITY AWAY THERE ARE GROUPS WHO CALLED THEMSELVES ORTHODOX... CANONICAL ORTHODOX and yet far from truth...
Well, if it was America, they'd sue....
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As reported there are already some R. Catholic Dioceses advising their flock to take care from this so called Orthodox Churches...
Unfortunately, we can't enforce our copyright to the Orthodox name.
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It hurts me and the rest of us here when we say that Yes, we are Orthodox and yet what they know about us are more worst than what these Vagantes are doing... soliciting using the orthdox name, marrying homosexuals, doing baptism and chrismation (confirmation) in some local communities...
THIS IS WHY WE ARE SADDENNED BY THE WAY ANTIOCH CAME AND PRESENTED ORTHODOXY (as I've said before, personally I am not against the coming of other sister Churches because the Philippines s too big)... mixed nuts... I am sorry... claim whatever you would like to claim... east, west, north ad south BUT IT DID NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT WE ARE ALL ACCOUNTED HERE FOR THE MESS IN THE PHILIPPINES... WHETHER YOU ARE OLD CALENDARIST OR NEW CALNDARIST.. THE FACT THAT EVERYONE HERE TRY TO IGNORES WHAT THAT CANON SAYS JUST TO JUSTIFY AND TO SAY THAT HEY.... WE ARE ADVANCING... A TRUE BROTHER HELPS HIS BROTHER IN TIME OF NEEDS AND DOES NOT WORK AT THE BACK OF HIS BROTHER...
As Ozgeorge points out, you are not alone, unfortunately, in this in the Philippines.
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Thank you and I call al the Administrators here to shutdown this topic as no one really takes seriously of what is happening in the Philippines...
We take it seriously. I would just like to have more facts.
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It's sad that what are our Church Fathers have paid by their blood and martyrdom are just ignored by people who knows more the Canon than us Filipinos.
It's not a Filipino alone, not by a long shot. Look at the problems between Constantinople and Moscow, both Orthodox for some time now.
filipiniana:
Quote from: ialmisry on January 29, 2009, 01:03:08 PM
The Patriarch of Antioch is the Patriarch of Antioch and All the East. It seems the Philippines are in the East.
It appears that Russia, China, Japan, Taiwan, Indonesia etc are also in the East. So according to your line of reasoning ialmisry the Patriarch of Antioch is also the canonical Patriarch of Russia, China "and all the East". Please stop fooling yourself ialmisry.
Quote from: ialmisry on January 29, 2009, 01:03:08 PM
The Church of Russia reached China, Korea and Japan, and, so it seems, the Philippines , first. Yet the EP saw fit to install its own hierarchy in those areas. In the case of China and Korea, for the greater good, given circumstances. In Japan, for no good purpose. Where does that leave the Philippines?
Again ialmisry, please do a little more research. It is not the Russians who came "first" in the Philippines. There were already Greeks, Armenians and Syrians in Manila during the 1800's. Likewise there is no historical record or any documentary evidence whatsoever that the Church of Russia installed its own hierarchy (or a native Orthodox hierarchy) in the Philippines (this only exist in the imaginations of vagante Patriarchs and unfortunately also your wild imaginations ialmisry). If you can't provide any material and documentary evidence to support your allegations then you better stop imagining and assuming things. The fact is, the EP has already installed its own hierarchy for the Philippines and South East Asia since 1997 and thus establishing the Orthodox Metropolitanate of Hong Kong and South East Asia (OMHKSEA). From 1997 up to 2008, His Eminence Metropolitan Nikitas has made numerous Pastoral visits to the Philippines and other countries in South East Asia under his canonical jurisdiction.
The present Antiochian Hierarch, His Eminence Archbishop Paul Saliba only set foot (again CLANDESTINELY) in the Philippines in OCTOBER 2007 to ordain a Filipino-American as a Deacon for the now defunct "Antiochian Orthodox Christian Mission in the Philippines" but the whole enterprise ended in a fiasco. I said clandestinely because nobody from the local canonical Orthodox clergy under EP was informed of this undertaking by the then Metropolitan Archbishop now Primate of the Philippines, His Eminence Paul Saliba. The failed enterprise was described by a priest from another jurisdiction as "a big blunder on the part of the Archbishop." Sadly that was not the last "blunder" but only the first.
By the way the official website of OMHKSEA has been recently updated. Please visit:
Orthodox Metropolitanate of Hong Kong and South East Asia (OMHKSEA)
Alveus Lacuna:
I hope that there can a good resolution to all of this. We are supposed to be brothers. We hell, I'm not even fully Orthodox yet. It is things like this that remind me that the important thing is my own local church and seeking Christ there, not trying to fix the whole Orthodox world!
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