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« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2008, 11:32:12 AM »

Btrakas,

I agree to a degree, as long as the following doesn't happen: the OCA's model for maintaining cultural differences within the OCA structure was to create ethnic diocese within the OCA umbrella - and this would be a travesty for the unified Church.  I think the bishops will be perfectly able to allow their parishes to be culturally diverse without having overlapping ethnic diocese within the unified administrative Church.

It is my understanding that these ethnic OCA dioceses were a temporary accommodation and not meant as a permanent solution.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 11:32:34 AM by Αριστοκλής » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2008, 11:35:10 AM »

This still all boils down to who gets to rule and will the people accept the ruling hierarch.
Chicago is a good example, out of the 7 hierarchs who are here, which one gets to rule the metropolis?

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« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2008, 12:06:27 PM »

There could be a regional structure with vicar bishops for ethnicities that have the rights (given by the Synod) to visit the ethnic parishes and to act as intercessors to the Synod in disputes between a bishop of ethnicity X and a parish of ethnicity Y. 

We just need to be careful - if you have a Metropolitan over say 5 cities, with vicars in the Metropolis, that would make sense - then you have one bishop for the area and 4 assistants who can travel according to the wishes of the Metropolitan; they can each be assigned to certain parishes as need be.  I don't know about having ethnicity-specific vicars, however, because you'd have 1 bishop for 70 Greek Churches but 1 bishop for 5 Romanian and 3 Bulgarian Churches.
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« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2008, 12:11:34 PM »

Interesting discussion turn here. Last year I pondered starting a Game here where WE designed the "American jurisdiction" - for fun and to get an idea of how hard this is to do. As cleveland knows, Pittsburgh and many other larger cities have multiple bishops.
But then I thought: "Have I lost my mind?"  Shocked
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« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2008, 12:47:45 PM »

While I am absolutely in favor of the immediate development of a transitional plan for migration to a unified North American  jurisdiction for the Eastern Orthodox Christian Church, some type of accommodations are going to have to be established for maintenance of cultural variances and existing practices.  Frankly, Saint Tikon's proposal for "some type of autonomy," which he had proposed to the Russian Holy Synod at the beginning of the 20th Century, should be published in English.  It may very well serve as a basis for a realistic plan for unified administration.
What language was it written in and have you read it?

Quote
A single bishop for a regional diocese will tend to impose his own perspective and ecclesiology.  There will be customs and practices which a bishop will not wish to accept, such as the requirements for preparation for the reception of Holy Communion.  There are many more variances that exit, especially in today's America, that should not be unilaterally changed, at once.  The initial American Orthodox jurisdictional unity must be able to accommodate the existing variances.  Parish lenten observance practices, days when the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony can be performed, and for that matter, the Typicon (Jerusalem & Constantinople) itself, will have to accommodate existing variances.  It is a massive project, but rather than simply ignoring the problem,  SCOBA, with the participation of other bishops, priests, deacons and laity, should be working toward preparation of the ultimate plan for a unified jurisdiction for North America, now.  Property ownership and its location, i.e. where offices of the dioceses and camps will be located, are other major aspects of what must be determined prior to the conversion to a unified jurisdiction.
I agree there should be a master plan but I don't know if all the bishops are ready to get to work on it. But you are right, they should be developing a master plan. Deacon John Zarras of the OCA, wrote a long paper on how the Antiochians and OCA could merge together. The plan was very detailed and covered many of the issues you have mentioned.


Quote
Utilizing respectful, yet firm and sincere diplomacy with the Eastern Patriarchates, perhaps with the strategy Metropolitan Phillip employed with the Patriarchate of Antioch which resulted in autonomy for his archdiocese; such planning could realistically be accomplished, tansitionally, without changes in existing church statutes, constitutions or charters and regulations.
Also, we need to let them know we will still be there for them in times of need. No one wants to abandon their mothers, especially, if they are weak or being threatened by outside sources.


                                             
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« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2008, 12:54:10 PM »

Interesting discussion turn here. Last year I pondered starting a Game here where WE designed the "American jurisdiction" - for fun and to get an idea of how hard this is to do. As cleveland knows, Pittsburgh and many other larger cities have multiple bishops.
But then I thought: "Have I lost my mind?"  Shocked

If there are high concentrations of Orthodox Christians in a given area (like the Greater Pittsburgh area), perhaps the dioceses would be much smaller and all of those bishops would be needed. Maybe just changing the name of the city for the bishop would work. I think we will still need all of our bishops it is just the boundaries would need to be re-drawn. We would want to optimize the bishop's ability to visit his parishes regularly. Once a bishop has more than 40 parishes under his omophorion, it gets very difficult for him to stay in touch with his flock.
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« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2008, 12:59:54 PM »

Αριστοκλή, since you asked....

From my observations, it would be best to have 5 Metropolises/Archdiocese, each with 5-7 diocese within them.  This would require 1 Archbishop (President of the Synod), 4 metropolitans, and 27 ruling Bishops, with an auxiliary Bishop as the Chancellor of each Metropolis/Archdiocese, and each diocese would have between 42 and 63 parishes (with the majority being in the 50's).  The regular synod would be made up of these 5 metropolitans and 2 bishops from each diocese (on a rotating basis), leaving the number for the Synod at 15 (odd numbers are good) with 8 required for a quorum (higher numbers are good).

Just as a preliminary idea, I had divided the Metropolises thusly:

Archdiocese of New York (President of the Synod) - covering the Northeast
Archbishop of New York, Bishops of Albany, Buffalo, Trenton, Boston, Worcester, and Hartford.

Metropolis of Atlanta - covering the South
Metropolitan of Atlanta, Bishops of Miami, Raleigh, Houston, and Birmingham.

Metropolis of Washington - covering PA-OH-WV-MD-DC-DE
Metropolitan of Washington, Bishops of Scranton, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Charleston, Cleveland, and Cincinnati.

Metropolis of Chicago - covering the Midwest
Metropolitan of Chicago, Bishops of Springfield, Detroit, Lansing, St. Paul, and Kansas City.

Metropolis of San Francisco - covering the West
Metropolitan of San Francisco, Bishops of Los Angeles, San Diego, Portland, Ankorage, Juneau, and Denver.


So how did I come up with these divisions?  I first totaled the Orthodox Churches by state.  (FYI: Top 5 - PA: 221, NY: 153, CA: 141, OH: 98, AK: 94).  Then I divided them into geographic regions.  I then tried my best to align the regional divisions to divide the metropolises as evenly as possible, taking into account those regions which cover more space, and thus should have fewer parishes.  When I did this, I came up with the following divisions:

West - 365 parishes, 7 diocese, 13 states, 1,864,361 square miles, 69 million Overall Population.
South - 272 parishes, 5 diocese, 12 states, 810,836 square miles, 97 million Overall Population.
Ohio Valley - 368 parishes, 7 diocese, 6 states, 129,546 square miles, 33 million Overall Population.
Northeast - 372 parishes, 7 diocese, 8 states, 135,194 square miles, 42 million Overall Population.
Midwest - 289 parishes, 6 diocese, 12 states, 846,947 square miles, 58 million Overall Population.

It should be noted that the Ohio Valley and Northeast combined have 25% of the US population, 7% of its land mass, but 44.4% of its Orthodox parishes.

Once I had divided the country regionally, I then proceeded to divide the regions into diocese, attempting to keep around 50-55 parishes in each (in order to sustain the expenses of the Diocese), while also trying to have diocesan borders not cross state lines (in some areas this was quite easy, in others not as much) or to engulf multiple whole states versus 1 and 1/2 or 3 and 1/3.

Certain states with a very large number of parishes in them are large enough to have one or more diocese perfectly maintained within their state boundaries.  These are: PA, NY, CA, OH, AK, IL, FL, NJ, MA, MI, TX, and CT.

After dividing the states into diocese, I then attempted to chose major cities with large Orthodox populations to be the Metropolitan centers, while also trying to keep the Metropolitan centers close to the center of the Metropolis (the exception: Washington, which is on the edge of that metropolis).  And after that, I attempted to chose other smaller cities with significant Orthodox populations that are/were centered on their diocesan area to be diocesan sees.

In addition to the 5 metropolitan/archbishops, 27 ruling bishops, and 5 auxiliary bishop chancellors, I also accounted for 5 other Auxiliary bishops: 1 to oversee Overseas Mission (OCMC/IOCC), 1 to oversee Domestic Missions, 1 to direct Communication, and 2 to be the Presidents of Seminaries - one on the East Coast, and 1 on the West Coast.  Each of these 5 Auxiliaries would have their offices spread throughout the country: the IOCC/OCMC Bishop would be in Baltimore (Ohio Valley Metropolis), Domestic Missions in the South, Publications in the Midwest, and the Seminary Bishops in the Northeast and West.  Thus, with their services also available, each Metropolis would have between 7 and 9 hierarchs in their area to serve between 270 and 370 parishes.

This is of course a preliminary survey, using information from the SCOBA website (directory), as well as US census and geographical information.
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« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2008, 01:07:56 PM »

Taking my previous post into account, I'll make some observations on my proposed division:

1. The West and South have the most space, but also the most potential for growth, because they have the largest percentages of the overall US population.  From now on, when we want to grow, those are the kinds of numbers we should be looking for, not Orthodox migration trends, or whatnot.

2. Many resources can probably be centralized around the Ohio Valley Metropolis - it is the only Metropolis with more diocese than states, and is easily the most concentrated area of Orthodox Christians.  This would allow a large degree of Metropolis-wide participation in events and ministries.

3. I kept the Archdiocese center in New York - while it would make lots of historical sense to put it in the Nation's Capital, New York is the location of the UN, and has more nationalities within the 5 Boroughs than any Interantional Organization or other city in the U.S.  And it's a big city - we're one of the few nations were the capital isn't a major cosmopolitan center.

4. The restriction on membership to the regular synod is to allow for business to progress - when ruling bodies get too large, it becomes more difficult to conduct one's affairs in a timely manner.  Any issues that would hold a truly major significance could be handled at a Major Synod (i.e. all the ruling bishops) that would be held infrequently.  Also, this restriction would allow many of the hierarchs to remain in their diocese during Clergy-Laity conferences, when normally all diocesan activity stops (although it shouldn't).
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« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2008, 01:10:45 PM »

Of course, it should be noted that my above plan does not necessitate Autocephaly... It can be as easily administered under the EP as it could be independently.  That's one message people need to get - that Autocephaly doesn't mean we'll get to be unified, just as non-Autocephaly isn't necessarily some sort of slavery to an outside influence.
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« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2008, 01:24:13 PM »

Of course, it should be noted that my above plan does not necessitate Autocephaly... It can be as easily administered under the EP as it could be independently.  That's one message people need to get - that Autocephaly doesn't mean we'll get to be unified, just as non-Autocephaly isn't necessarily some sort of slavery to an outside influence.

I think many would be willing to have unity without autocephaly but it may be hard to convince everyone to have unity under one patriarchate. How open would the ROCOR-MP be to this idea?
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« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2008, 01:34:08 PM »

cleveland,
Wow! You have done some work. I must digest this some. Did you explore the existing episcopacies for any easy "fits"?

Tamara,
At this point in our "game' we might set aside those 'what-ifs' for a while.
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« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2008, 01:45:46 PM »

I think many would be willing to have unity without autocephaly but it may be hard to convince everyone to have unity under one patriarchate. How open would the ROCOR-MP be to this idea? 

ROCOR-MP isn't in the above equation, because they weren't in SCOBA 6 months ago when I complied this information (heck, they're not in SCOBA now, even).  And quite frankly, if the Big 5 or 6 in this country were to do this, it would be very difficult for the others to stay separate, and even if they did, it wouldn't matter... Remember, there will still be Stavropegial parishes and monasteries of all the Patriarchates here, just as they have a few within each others' jurisdictions.
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« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2008, 01:48:51 PM »

cleveland,
Wow! You have done some work. I must digest this some. Did you explore the existing episcopacies for any easy "fits"?

I had indeed explored them, but I chose not to bring that up for various reasons.  If I did, there will be a definite slant towards existing GOA and OCA bishops, since they are all Archbishops or Metropolitans at the moment - of course, if this plan were to go into effect tomorrow, what you would probably see is a few of those Archbishop and Metro types being presidents of Diocese instead of Metropolises, just to make the plan work.  Theoretically it should work in order of Seniority, according to the SCOBA model, at the outset, and then after 1 generation of bishops the election process would fill the rest of the vacancies.
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« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2008, 02:15:05 PM »

I'm going to note the few diocese that are jumbo in size (other than Alaska!):

Diocese of Kansas City: KS, MO, NE, IA, OK, ND, SD - total, 62 parishes.
Diocese of Birmingham: KY, TN, Al, AR, MS - total, 40 parishes.
Diocese of Denver: CO, MT, UT, ID, WY - total, 46 parishes.

The number is a bit higher for Kansas City because of the 9 (9!) parishes that the AOA has in Kansas.  The AOA has about 240 parishes, but 22 of them fall in the area encompasses by the Kansas City Diocese I listed above (which is an astronomical percentage considering the low population).



The grand totals that I was working with: 1,666 parishes (540 GOA, 527 OCA, 237 AOA, 134 SOC, 107 UOC, 76 ACROD, 25 Romanian, 18 Bulgarian, 2 Albanian).  Remember, the OCA numbers include the ethnic diocese of the OCA.

Each of the major jurisdictions has at least one state with 10%+ of its parishes (OCA: Alaska - 16.7%, GOA: New York - 11.5%, AOA: California - 11.8%).

The major jurisdictions only have minor holes in their national coverage.  The number of states which each jurisdiction has 0 parishes: AOA - 5, OCA - 6, GOA - 1 (North Dakota).

Each jurisdiction is contributing a number of hierarchs proportionate to its population, except the OCA which seems to have more hierarchs per person than the others by a large degree, and the Antiochians (who are growing quickly).  The number of Ruling Hierarchs: AOA - 7, GOA - 9, OCA - 9, Serbian - 3, Ukranian - 3 (oops, now 2), Romanian - 2, and the others 1 each.  Only the GOA (2) and the OCA (2) have auxiliary bishops.
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« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2008, 02:54:23 PM »

ROCOR-MP isn't in the above equation, because they weren't in SCOBA 6 months ago when I complied this information (heck, they're not in SCOBA now, even).  And quite frankly, if the Big 5 or 6 in this country were to do this, it would be very difficult for the others to stay separate, and even if they did, it wouldn't matter... Remember, there will still be Stavropegial parishes and monasteries of all the Patriarchates here, just as they have a few within each others' jurisdictions.

The ROCOR-MP has over 200 parishes in North America. Out here in California, the Russian immigrant population continues to grow. And the ROCOR has done an excellent job of evangelizing others. I don't think we can afford to ignore them. As long as there is another jurisdiction clergy and laypeople can run to we will continue to have many of the problems we have now. It does make sense to start with the SCOBA member jurisdictions first but there has to be a long-range plan to include everyone if unity is really going to work.
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« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2008, 03:09:54 PM »

The ROCOR isn't an American jurisdiction, in purpose or in practicality.  It is the representation of the Russian Church now outside the boundaries of the Russian Federation and Ukraine.  There are and will be ROCOR parishes all over the world, including within the patriarchal boundaries of other churches.  I don't see them ever joining a united North American hierarchy.

The aim should be consolidation.
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« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2008, 03:43:45 PM »

The ROCOR-MP has over 200 parishes in North America. Out here in California, the Russian immigrant population continues to grow. And the ROCOR has done an excellent job of evangelizing others. I don't think we can afford to ignore them. As long as there is another jurisdiction clergy and laypeople can run to we will continue to have many of the problems we have now. It does make sense to start with the SCOBA member jurisdictions first but there has to be a long-range plan to include everyone if unity is really going to work. 

I guess my point about "Stavropegial" parishes is reaffirmed when considering AMM's point above - I don't think ROCOR will join because they're not just "North American," nor will they sacrifice their North American parishes, unless the American Church has been well established and whatnot.
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« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2008, 04:00:48 PM »

Deacon John Zarras of the OCA, wrote a long paper on how the Antiochians and OCA could merge together. The plan was very detailed and covered many of the issues you have mentioned.
Is there a link to this paper on the web ?

Thanks.


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« Reply #63 on: January 24, 2008, 04:14:06 PM »

Is there a link to this paper on the web ?

Thanks.


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http://www.orthodoxdetroit.com/orthodoxunity.htm

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« Reply #64 on: January 24, 2008, 04:31:00 PM »



Thanks. 


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« Reply #65 on: January 24, 2008, 04:44:47 PM »

The ROCOR isn't an American jurisdiction, in purpose or in practicality.  It is the representation of the Russian Church now outside the boundaries of the Russian Federation and Ukraine.  There are and will be ROCOR parishes all over the world, including within the patriarchal boundaries of other churches.  I don't see them ever joining a united North American hierarchy.

The aim should be consolidation.

But if we leave the ROCOR out and do not allow them to join the unity conversation, we will continue to see the problems experienced in Great Britain and Western Europe. North America will just become another place for the two patriarchates to have feuds. The ROCOR will compete with a SCOBA jurisdiction for inquirers through differentiation (ex: traditionalism, anti-ecumenism, etc.). Renegade clergy and laypeople will flee in either direction depending on the situation.
They should be at least invited to the table for the discussion in order to build friendly relations and to hopefully find ways of cooperating to avoid the problems I mentioned above.


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« Reply #66 on: January 24, 2008, 05:01:14 PM »

Yes, Cleveland and Anastasios, I would hope we could avoid diocesan structures within canonical dioceses.  I would only add, the auxiliary contact bishops seems like a viable transitional method to address issues, but I think there should be some type of an associated committee structure, with an auxiliary bishop, to allow for a more conciliar approach and to preclude, having two bishops in a confrontational mode, as issues arise.  I still think studying what St. Tikon proposed, in detail, would have some benefit to initiate the process discussion.
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« Reply #67 on: January 24, 2008, 05:20:29 PM »

Αριστοκλή, since you asked....
This is of course a preliminary survey, using information from the SCOBA website (directory), as well as US census and geographical information.

My gosh Cleveland, preliminary or not - if someone would just give you an office, some grant money and a secretary, you could solve the whole problem.  Do you want to be some kind of Chancellor, or just the architect behind the scenes?
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« Reply #68 on: January 24, 2008, 05:27:00 PM »

My gosh Cleveland, preliminary or not - if someone would just give you an office, some grant money and a secretary, you could solve the whole problem.  Do you want to be some kind of Chancellor, or just the architect behind the scenes?

Or both, like this guy:

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« Reply #69 on: January 24, 2008, 05:33:17 PM »

A single unified American church isnt going to happen any time soon. Theres almost a naivete in these posts. None of theese jurisdictions want unification, the voices you hear supporting it, are elements which are actually a minorty.
 The OCA should be demanding all parishes to be handed over to them (atleast the convert parishes) since they are autocephalous, and if theres any truth to their autocephaly this is precisely what needs to be done. Antioch speaks alot of unification but i dont see them wishing to be absorbed into the OCA. If Antioch wants unity they should hand over there convert parishes to the OCA and come up with a plan to disband.
The greeks dont want unification, The GOA is the EP's cash cow and no one is going to slaughter it. And the majority of the laity do not want to be unified to begin with. Greeks will not go for anything that has the word "American" in front of the word "Orthodox". For most greeks (immigrants and first generation) both their nationality and their faith are honorable and complement each other. This is the overwhelming silent majority.

ROCOR and the JP want nothing to do with SCOBA let alone a unified american church which will have to fuse with varying degrees of liberalism found in each jurisdiction.
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« Reply #70 on: January 24, 2008, 05:34:03 PM »

But if we leave the ROCOR out and do not allow them to join the unity conversation, we will continue to see the problems experienced in Great Britain and Western Europe. North America will just become another place for the two patriarchates to have feuds. The ROCOR will compete with a SCOBA jurisdiction for inquirers through differentiation (ex: traditionalism, anti-ecumenism, etc.). Renegade clergy and laypeople will flee in either direction depending on the situation.
They should be at least invited to the table for the discussion in order to build friendly relations and to hopefully find ways of cooperating to avoid the problems I mentioned above.

It's not a matter of leaving them out, their purpose to exist precludes them from being interested in a united jurisdiction.  The MP outside Russia has been, and the ROCOR now will be, a representation of Russian interests outside the existing Russian Patriarchal territories.  Their purpose is to represent the Russian Church abroad and to serve Russians wherever they are outside their homeland.  It is why for instance they have since the 19th century maintained a presence in Jerusalem, on the territory of the Jerusalem Patriarchate.

They aren't a North American church, though they have a presence here.  I agree they should be included in organiziations like SCOBA, but I think it would be unwise to hold out hope that every jurisdiction will join a consolidated church.  What there should be however are agreed upon pastoral standards for the issues you are discussing; i.e. not taking disgruntled people from another church, etc.  That would certainly take cooperation from all churches present in North America.  Hopefully relations will warm between all churches no matter what happens.  The reunion of the MP and the ROCOR recently is at least one hopeful sign.
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« Reply #71 on: January 24, 2008, 06:12:39 PM »

A single unified American church isnt going to happen any time soon. Theres almost a naivete in these posts. None of theese jurisdictions want unification, the voices you hear supporting it, are elements which are actually a minorty.
 The OCA should be demanding all parishes to be handed over to them (atleast the convert parishes) since they are autocephalous, and if theres any truth to their autocephaly this is precisely what needs to be done. Antioch speaks alot of unification but i dont see them wishing to be absorbed into the OCA. If Antioch wants unity they should hand over there convert parishes to the OCA and come up with a plan to disband.  The greeks dont want unification, The GOA is the EP's cash cow and no one is going to slaughter it. And the majority of the laity do not want to be unified to begin with. Greeks will not go for anything that has the word "American" in front of the word "Orthodox". For most greeks (immigrants and first generation) both their nationality and their faith are honorable and complement each other. This is the overwhelming silent majority.

ROCOR and the JP want nothing to do with SCOBA let alone a unified american church which will have to fuse with varying degrees of liberalism found in each jurisdiction. 

You obviously don't know who you're talking to.  Your naivete comment seems a bit out of place - nothing in here is a "we can do this right now," but more like a "if we could do this, this is how we would."  The GOA isn't the EP's cash cow, the Greek Government is, so get your facts straight.  And the AOA is serious about unity - but no one is going to fold into the Administratively problematic OCA.  As for the silent majority, wake up - outside of Boston, New York, and Chicago, the "silent majority" wants unity - I know, I've traveled enough and know enough people to make that assessment.

The appeal to the autocephaly of the OCA also shows how unfamiliar you are with the history of the contentions about that autocephaly, and the pitfalls of joining with the OCA at this moment, how their administration is stretched too thin (too many seminaries and parishes and not enough people to fill them all, especially in the traditionally-Orthodox lands of the midwest).

As to your comment about "varying degrees of liberalism," one Administrative structure will allow the "varying degrees of conservatism" to better counterbalance the "varying degrees of liberalism" more effectively - right now each one is unbalanced because their conservative elements are conservative about the subjects for which their jurisdiction aren't liberal about (IMO).
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« Reply #72 on: January 24, 2008, 06:13:50 PM »

Yes, Cleveland and Anastasios, I would hope we could avoid diocesan structures within canonical dioceses.  I would only add, the auxiliary contact bishops seems like a viable transitional method to address issues, but I think there should be some type of an associated committee structure, with an auxiliary bishop, to allow for a more conciliar approach and to preclude, having two bishops in a confrontational mode, as issues arise.  I still think studying what St. Tikon proposed, in detail, would have some benefit to initiate the process discussion. 

You're right - it would be a good transition.  Give some time for people to get used to Greek and Romanian and Serbian and Antiochian parishes being in the same diocese.
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« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2008, 11:16:39 PM »

You obviously don't know who you're talking to.  Your naivete comment seems a bit out of place - nothing in here is a "we can do this right now," but more like a "if we could do this, this is how we would."  The GOA isn't the EP's cash cow, the Greek Government is, so get your facts straight.  And the AOA is serious about unity - but no one is going to fold into the Administratively problematic OCA.  As for the silent majority, wake up - outside of Boston, New York, and Chicago, the "silent majority" wants unity - I know, I've traveled enough and know enough people to make that assessment.

The appeal to the autocephaly of the OCA also shows how unfamiliar you are with the history of the contentions about that autocephaly, and the pitfalls of joining with the OCA at this moment, how their administration is stretched too thin (too many seminaries and parishes and not enough people to fill them all, especially in the traditionally-Orthodox lands of the midwest).

As to your comment about "varying degrees of liberalism," one Administrative structure will allow the "varying degrees of con
servatism" to better counterbalance the "varying degrees of liberalism" more effectively - right now each one is unbalanced because their conservative elements are conservative about the subjects for which their jurisdiction aren't liberal about (IMO).

Boston, NY and Chicago are the majority including other clusters of greek communities thru-out America. The GOA is the EP's most prestigious asset, he wont let it go. Secondly your not familiar with the inner working of politics. It is a fact that the OCA considers itself the canonical jurisdiction of America but isnt vocal about it, because of there small numbers. I stand by what i wrote. 
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« Reply #74 on: January 25, 2008, 12:13:57 AM »

Cleveland, what an amazing research! Excellent.

Let me just suggest a couple of more points:

1. It would make sense to keep sees / offices of the auxiliary hierarchs, and perhaps even ruling hierarchs in some cases, in the locations, where some ruling or auxiliary sees / offices were placed, or in the places, which have some historic Orthodox significance. For example - Ligonier, Astoria, Englewood, South Bound Brook, Syosset, Jordanville.

2. In case if a President / Lead Dean of the seminary happens to be a monk or a widower, it would be reasonable to ordain him to episcopacy.

3. To certain extent distribution of territories already happened in South. GOA located the center of the diocese in Atlanta, OCA did so in Dallas and AOA in Miami.


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« Reply #75 on: January 25, 2008, 12:16:35 AM »

Can you make a map?  I know I would find that helpful. 

Also, what about Canada?  Mexico?  In which case, your areas will change as well as your bishops...

just some thoughts. 

Tamara,

I just PM'd you about SF Youth and Young Adult ministries web-site.  let me know what you think. 
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« Reply #76 on: January 25, 2008, 12:24:12 AM »

Another thought. What if it would be (1) ruling hierarch per state as minimum as a base scenario. I realize that some new dioceses would have 7 - 10 parishes in the beginning. More mission work would be needed. Sorry, if it sounds overly optimistic. In some states, it would be still premature to establish a diocese. Some other states with traditional substantial Orthodox presence, NY, CA, NJ, IL to name a few, may have more then (1) diocese.
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« Reply #77 on: January 25, 2008, 12:33:47 AM »


Tamara,

I just PM'd you about SF Youth and Young Adult ministries web-site.  let me know what you think. 

pm'd you back...you are a sweety! Thanks, Tamara
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« Reply #78 on: January 25, 2008, 09:20:29 AM »

Also, what about Canada? 


Oh yeah, that place.   Wink
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« Reply #79 on: January 25, 2008, 09:42:20 AM »

Boston, NY and Chicago are the majority including other clusters of greek communities thru-out America. The GOA is the EP's most prestigious asset, he wont let it go. Secondly your not familiar with the inner working of politics. It is a fact that the OCA considers itself the canonical jurisdiction of America but isnt vocal about it, because of there small numbers. I stand by what i wrote. 

Perhaps you might review the autocephalcy as granted by Moscow to the OCA. IIRC, it specifically noted that that the OCA was not the only canonical Orthodox jurisdiction in NA.
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« Reply #80 on: January 28, 2008, 12:16:59 PM »

Just checkin' in to see where you jamokes are takin' this rant.  laugh
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« Reply #81 on: January 28, 2008, 02:32:29 PM »

Boston, NY and Chicago are the majority including other clusters of greek communities thru-out America.

Nope.  Of the 540 GOA parishes, more than 350 are not located in Boston, NY, or Chicago.

State   Tot Parish   GOA
California   141   44
Alaska   94   1
Washington   23   7
Colorado   23   9
Arizona   22   7
Oregon   17   4
Nevada   14   4
Montana   7   2
Utah   6   4
New Mexico   5   2
Idaho   5   2
Wyoming   5   4
Hawaii   3   2
Florida   78   33
Texas   55   17
Virginia   27   12
Georgia   25   10
North Carolina   23   12
South Carolina   16   7
Tennessee   12   6
Alabama   9   5
Louisiana   8   4
Arkansas   7   2
Kentucky   6   2
Mississippi   6   2
Pennsylvania   221   37
Ohio   98   23
Maryland   23   8
West Virginia   14   6
DC   7   2
Delaware   5   1
New York   153   62
New Jersey   72   25
Massachusetts   68   38
Connecticut   47   17
New Hampshire   15   12
Rhode Island   7   3
Maine   6   4
Vermont   4   2
Illinois   84   36
Michigan   61   22
Indiana   40   7
Wisconsin   21   7
Minnesota   21   4
Kansas   15   2
Missouri   12   4
Nebraska   11   5
Iowa   10   6
Oklahoma   9   2
North Dakota   3   0
South Dakota   2   1

Heck, I counted 320 parishes excluding California, New York, Massachusetts, New Jesrsey, and Illinois in their entireties, which doesn't even provide for the fact that many parishes in those states are not in the metropolitan areas of the largest cities (i.e. upstate NY, southern IL, central/southern NJ, western MA).

Why don't you actually study the subject you're making claims about before going out on a limb and making foolish assertions?

The GOA is the EP's most prestigious asset, he wont let it go.

Actually, Mount Athos is the most prestigious non-Turkish area within the EP, and the New Lands (i.e. Northern Greece and the Islands) are certainly more "prestigious" than America.  Nice try, though.

Btw: the EP and it's activities are not a "he," and it's not about whether "he" would let go or not.  The EP is the synod more than the man in cases like this: the Patriarch himself has no say as to whether America is within the EP's spiritual fold.  You should get a refresher course on Church ecclesiology before making such ridiculous assertions.

Secondly your not familiar with the inner working of politics. It is a fact that the OCA considers itself the canonical jurisdiction of America but isnt vocal about it, because of there small numbers. I stand by what i wrote. 

Lol.  I believe that any of the OC.net users who personally know me would laugh at your assertion that I don't know "the inner workings of politics."  It is precisely because I know the inner workings of politics that I do not pay any credence to the OCA's opinion of herself - to many Orthodox churches worldwide she is not autocephalous, and to the rest she is not intended to be the only Orthodox jurisdiction in the US.  She can have whatever opinion of herself that she pleases, it doesn't change the fact that unity under the OCA is problematic for many reasons and isn't being sought after, not even by the aggressive AOA movement for "one jurisdiction right now."  (Yes, it's a caricature, but not too far from the truth.)
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« Reply #82 on: January 29, 2008, 01:47:37 AM »

Reply to Tamara's first question in Reply #49:

Saint Tikhon was Bishop of the Aleutians and North America, reporting to the Holy Synod of the Church of Russia, his superior ecclesiastical authority, when he wrote his request that I referred to.
So, I assume he would have been writing in Russian (or Church Slavonic---just kidding). 

I have not seen it.
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« Reply #83 on: January 30, 2008, 10:56:09 PM »

Cleveland, I really admire of your research. You will definitely orchestrate the unity, Fr. Chancellor!
Lol.  I believe that any of the OC.net users who personally know me would laugh at your assertion that I don't know "the inner workings of politics."  It is precisely because I know the inner workings of politics that I do not pay any credence to the OCA's opinion of herself - to many Orthodox churches worldwide she is not autocephalous, and to the rest she is not intended to be the only Orthodox jurisdiction in the US.  She can have whatever opinion of herself that she pleases, it doesn't change the fact that unity under the OCA is problematic for many reasons and isn't being sought after, not even by the aggressive AOA movement for "one jurisdiction right now."  (Yes, it's a caricature, but not too far from the truth.)

I agree with your conclusions and, yes, I am joining the lough. You have a lot of knowledge of the subject, Cleveland.
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« Reply #84 on: January 31, 2008, 12:49:03 AM »

Also, what about Canada? 

I'm starting the report as we speak, my friend.
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« Reply #85 on: January 31, 2008, 01:09:35 AM »

I'm starting the report as we speak, my friend.

Should be interesting.  Seems things are quite different up here compared to in the US.
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« Reply #86 on: January 31, 2008, 01:14:11 AM »

Should be interesting.  Seems things are quite different up here compared to in the US.

Tell me about it. I'm half an hour in, wondering why I'm attempting this.
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« Reply #87 on: January 31, 2008, 01:32:28 AM »

I had considered compiling the information for Canada as well, but I decided to stop with familiar territory.  I knew that once someone saw this kind of work, they'd want to pick it up for the Canucks too.
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« Reply #88 on: January 31, 2008, 01:33:39 AM »

Tell me about it. I'm half an hour in, wondering why I'm attempting this.

I had originally attempted undertaking the task by checking in with each individual jurisdiction, but in the end I determined that the most efficient way of completing the task was to use the SCOBA directory (www.scoba.us) instead.  This will work for all jurisdictions except the Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Toronto (I think), but I'm sure they have a list on their website.

I had noticed a lot of gaps in the coverage, BTW.
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« Reply #89 on: January 31, 2008, 01:40:10 AM »

I kinda used both methods, as I found the SCOBA directory lacked the churches for my jurisdiction, and I figured the jurisdictional websites would be most accurate.

I'm currently sorting church lists by provinces, then I will begin calculating. I think the main issue is that the parish for the three prairie provinces will be inflated relative to the rest of the country....country parishes that were thriving back in 50s and earlier are now mostly inactive.....I'm not certain how to identify these parishes that are inactive....it's mainly an issue with the OCA and the Ukrainians only. Like your proposal, I'm not factoring in the ROCOR-MP.
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